![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 78 to 102 of 108. Go back in thread:
Posted by sally green on June 11, 2002, at 7:50:00
In reply to Re: buprenex grey market -- Reese, posted by cisco on February 15, 2002, at 17:15:25
Have you experienced problems with xxx Website? I have been trying to get in there for many days. Do you know the price of their Buprenex Ampules?
Thanks
Sally> What am I missing here: This Doctor will write Class II prescriptions all day long. She's terrified of issuing a Class V script, but will help her patient obtain this same drug under false pretenses in the Grey Market? Who is in greater need of counseling here, the Doc or the patient?
>
> BTW: $260 will buy you 200 0.2mg SL tabs via a reliable Online Pharmacy. Out of curiosity, how many 0.3mg/ml ampuoles will You get for 3 C notes?
>
> Cisco
Posted by sally green on June 11, 2002, at 8:05:38
In reply to reese to cisco, posted by reese1 on February 18, 2002, at 16:12:59
Hey Cisco:
You seem to be the person who knows about this Buprenex crap. I originally started using Bup for detox from Oxycotin, after suffering 20 years from injuries and pain. However, I am currently attending a detox which I now know is operating illegally! they start everyone as a detox patient, charge you $1250.00, never detox anyone, turn everyone into a pain management patient and keep them on Buprenex for as many years as they can. Each monthly appt is costing from $475.00 to, one one buddy is so addicted to Buprenex now he is paying about $800.00 per month. There is alot of information for anyone wanting to know about Buprenex. I am planning on leaving this scam joint and starting treatment with my family physian and letting him prescribe the Buprenex. Do I see from your postings that you have checked prices at xxx?
Thanks
Sally
> > Dear Reese:
> >
> > I am very sorry you are having to endure so much unnecessary pain and torment. How utterly ridiculous! But so typical. The Doctors have the keys to the medicine cabinet, and they KNOW it. It dosen't matter how inept, inane or incompetent, they are. They will put up some meds, if you shut up.
> >
> > How long are we willing to take this? How long do we have to? Hey, the times they be a changeling....
> >
> > >>>>>BTW = By The Way<<<<<
> >
> > Buprenorphine Pricing:
> >
> > Are you really paying that much?
> > $135.00 for 30 amps x 0.3mg/ml, is what, $4.50 per dose of 300 micrograms? OUCH!
> > Thats as much as the rip-off Mexican Farmacias in Tijuana! Gee-Willickers and Gosh!
> >
> > By comparison, most Online Pharmacy's (OP's) charge considerably less, mg for mg. Most OP's offer 200 microgram sublingual tabs (0.2mg) rather than the 300 microgram injectible ampuoles (0.3mg/ml).
> >
> > BTW, They both work well. However, the SL Tabs are more discreet, if you are dosing at work, for instance.
> >
> > Online Pricing starts out at $.70 cents each ($70.00 per 100 tabs), up to $1.50 each ($150.00 per 100 tabs). Available at 5 OP's, of varying reliability and price.
> >
> > Take care, and be smart.
> >
> > Cisco
>
>
>
> hey man/women thank you so much for the words and care. &*^*& i never like to say out loud how i feel. it's fear. then it will be true. it's been a long time. i am tired. i have support. financially it's a killer. not just "financial" but the humility of not working. bla bla bla
Posted by Sally Green on June 11, 2002, at 14:25:40
In reply to Re: sidetrack from Addiction » reese1, posted by shelliR on March 14, 2002, at 11:47:08
Shelli:
Glad you are feeling well. I read pretty good! Lol! Have you had any luck finding the Buprenex at a lesser price. First, outside of dealing with xxx, Walgreens price is 5.99 per ampul. I know, really expensive! I am on Buprenex for pain and it really helps. But the possibility of addiction to this drug is also great.
There are several sites that offer assistance, based on income, in paying for the drugs and can pay the entire fee for you if you meet their requirements. One site is www.needymeds.com. They have a short application and $5.00 fee and all of the necessary instructions on how to proceed. I have not tried them yet. I quess it is worth the risk for $5.00, but the post office box sort of throws you off.
Please let me know if you are purchasing the Buprenex for less than 5.99 and if so where, or if you should find it cheaper. I will keep you in mind and do the same for you.
Thanks
Sally
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2002, at 18:58:03
In reply to Re: buprenex grey market -- Reese, posted by sally green on June 11, 2002, at 7:50:00
> Have you experienced problems with xxx Website? I have been trying to get in there for many days...
Please don't use this site to exchange information on how to import into the US prescription medication without a prescription:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#illegal
Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, or complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by Sally Green on June 11, 2002, at 20:26:18
In reply to Re: medication without a prescription » sally green, posted by Dr. Bob on June 11, 2002, at 18:58:03
Sorry Dr. Bob.
Sally
Posted by ShelliR on June 11, 2002, at 21:47:04
In reply to Re: sidetrack from Addiction, posted by Sally Green on June 11, 2002, at 14:25:40
Hi Sally,
Not only did I not find medication overseas any cheaper, but they confiscated my order. So I went through sudden withdrawal. Now I am going to a pain doctor and he is prescribing another opiate.
On the positive side, sublingual buprenorphine is supposed to be approved very shortly. The FDA has been saying this forever, but my friend was offered a job with a consulting company who worked on the protocol to dispense buprenorphine and they say it's really going to happen any time now.
Doctors will have to apply for a license to use it for detox, but then it will involve just going to their office to get a script. I don't believe there will be any restrictions using it for pain management. Actually, I didn't find it any less addictive than other opiates, but it's not supposed to make you high. (Actually none of the opiates make me high) Anyway, my understanding is that NIMH funded the development of the sublingual version of buprenorphine in this country. It will be interesting to see if this has an inpact on the cost. If it is released, I would like to switch back to it, but only because it sounds better to say partial opiate, than I'm taking oxycontin, for example. Also I think I would worry less about habituation since it will be used for detox at rather high levels.
Good luck,
Shelli
Posted by reese1 on June 12, 2002, at 11:35:38
In reply to Re: medication without a prescription, posted by Sally Green on June 11, 2002, at 20:26:18
hello,
it's been some time since i have posted. i read some of sally green's posts and found them very intresting and full of rage and pain which i found to be very very appropriate. my expierence with buprenex was so inconsistent and confusing i don't know what to say. one day it seemed to work. the next nothing. one day it would make me, at least to other's eyes, manic, others sad.
i know it seemed to have some speed effect on me. a feeling like staying up all night drinking and sleping three or four hours. and you wake up with all that sugar running in your system. buprenex made me feel like that. but even that was better than regular.
so where am i now? nowhere else.
when i read that they were going to finally "legalize" buprenex without iv i thought that is great. to me anything is great. medications are to the point where they are beyond laughable. it's a cyclical fuck you that goes around and around, through the pens of the doctors, the rules of the MDA, and the companies of creating. adn when it is finally complete. complete meaning something we are not allowed ot understand. we can run like little children to the candy store, hoping, praying, for this one to help us breathe freely, walk easily, think hopefullly, anything but living in this cracked broken museum. where everyone's make up has worn off, showers are broken, clocks tick louder and thicker each day. each and everyone's eyes glue to the hands that turn the dial of time that we are trapped into being a part of. please pill give me the ability to just walk out side. please pill give the power to pick up the phone. please pill give me the power to stop this pounding that wants nothing more than for me to chope myself in two. please pill make me what i used to be. please pill just give me a day full of silence where i am not scared of everything but my shadow. since it has disapeered long times ago.
i take
lithium
neurontin
adderall
risperdal
clonzapan
celexa
they help. but i wake up each day with nothing to do. i can't work. if i did work i would fuck up my SSI disability. which i was just rejected so i ahve to appeal. i went through five tests of there's. flunking each one but still they denied me.what works? i don't know
what doesn't work? i know tha much better
i feel for everyone who writes here. it has only been ten years since i was forced to join the pill army. since then there have been ups and downs. now there is nothng. a numbness. that is all. if something hits me. a feeeling. it seems to be addressed by everything but me. but still i have the feeling of wanting to cry. and that has not been blackked out yet. i used to write five hundred poems a year on my computer. i looked under 2001 and there were maybe twenty. and they were bad. i wrote one play and twenty poems.
i hate writing. you have nothing around you but the pile of weight you sit on which is connected only to you. the one thing you want to get away from
that is why i have always found my deepest and most pounding drug to be acting. if only i could find another part. for those three four months i am free. nothing hurts as much as now.
sorry for the long rambling pompous lettergood luck everyone
and i hope for whatever' sakes buprenex becomes legalized. it's all a bunch of bullshit anyway. in terms of what get's approved and what doesn't.
Posted by Sally green on June 12, 2002, at 17:31:53
In reply to Re: sidetrack from Addiction » Sally Green, posted by ShelliR on June 11, 2002, at 21:47:04
Hi Shelli:
Thanks for the letter. First, Buprenex is approved and has been for over 10 years for use
in pain management and depression. I have a PDR that is from 1994 and it is there. Only not for detox. If you would like to email me at my home: heartofgold@worldnet.att.net, there is a US pharmacy that sells Buprenex for 2.72 per ampul. I could not believe it. They sell 30 for about 87.00 and 90 for about 249.00. If you would like to chat I'll will be happy to give you the sites etc. Dr. Bob already warned me about discussing foreign sites, but just in case. I am going to get away from this clinic because I know that it is only a matter of time and these folks are nabbed. Am going to my family doctor tomarrow to request that he prescribe the Buprenex.Thanks
Sally
Posted by Sally green on June 12, 2002, at 18:12:41
In reply to hello everyone i have not had the honor to meet, posted by reese1 on June 12, 2002, at 11:35:38
Hi Reese:
Sorry to hear that things seem so gloomy. One thing I will say and I won't start preachin' to you. I have been addicted to food, alcohol, opiates, work you name it. God has a great plan for every one of us my brother. If you have alot of time on your hands, start reading the bible. I have prayed to God to help with these addictions and he has. I have lost 100 pounds and kept it off for over 6 years. Stopped drinking 6 years ago and have not had a sip since. Started that bogis detox 16 weeks ago and have atleast not done any Oxy's. Alot of it is behavioral modification, self control, balance! we need all of these things and when you think about it, how many people do you know who live and practice these three?
You sound very creative. Get back into that!!!! Maybe your life's path is to write lyrics for these cool Christian rock bands like CREED! You never know. Don't let people, these insincere doctors or anything make you believe that God has anything than the best for your life.
At almost 40 years of age, I still do not have a direction for my life. I have earned several college degrees, a drunk and drug user, 4.0 QPA's. I have begun to believe that maybe the plan for my life is to help addicts. Preach and teach addicts. Help them discover the reasons for why they abuse themselves with drugs and alcohol. I realize, that as a child and teenager, I was given alot of love but no discpline. NOT GOOD! Have to discipline children. Tuff Italian pop! Raise your kids until they are about 13 and then you have to trust that they will do the right things. BULL! That's when they need your guidance the most. BUT, no blame here! When I was growing up there was not the info on drugs and alcohol like today. My parents really got handed the test of their lives and came through it pretty well. I believe that God will use all of these addictions to make a wonderful savior out of me and that I will help others who will experience these problems in the future and God knows there will be alot of those folks.
Anyway, I do know people who have mixed emotions about the Buprenex. Have not talked to people who experienced the dislike that you claim. Or did you say that you like it??? Seemed like you were alittle indifferent. Need to find a caring, professional who will monitor your progress and structure a program that will give you the correct amount. There area alot of sites about depression and Buprenex. Seems that many people have great success. You appear to be taking alot of prescribed meds. Maybe one of those are forcing the Buprenex to affect you in a less than desireable way??? There are also many sites to find info on the mixing of buprenex and other drugs, such as the ones you named, and the possible side effects. Have you checked the sites that offer info on the mixing of the drugs that you stated? This is only my uneducated opinion and I say this with the deepest and sincerest compassion, but maybe if you were not taking all of these drugs you would be alot happier. You say that there was a time when you felt very well. What were you taking then? I have been taking vitamins for a long time and have found that many natural remedies will help with depression, pain, mood, sleep, just about everything. Doctors are just prescribing sooooo many drugs, because they are not in your shoes. But, to feel the way you do and be taking all of these meds???? Maybe you need to get off of some of that crap!! Beleive me though, I know where you are coming from. It is truly an agonizing thing! Trying to find a doctor who has the TIME to listen and learn about your exact needs and problems is tough. I think that they just put so many of us in one basket and think because this regimen works for this person it will wotk for all. However, as I said, nutrition factors, vitamins and many other aspects must be looked upon and our doctors today do not seem to have the time for all of that. They just want to send you off with another pill, usually the current one that the drug rep is promoting and hope that it works for you too!
Good luck. Please keep writing. We can all learn from one another!!
Peace
Sally> hello,
>
> it's been some time since i have posted. i read some of sally green's posts and found them very intresting and full of rage and pain which i found to be very very appropriate. my expierence with buprenex was so inconsistent and confusing i don't know what to say. one day it seemed to work. the next nothing. one day it would make me, at least to other's eyes, manic, others sad.
>
> i know it seemed to have some speed effect on me. a feeling like staying up all night drinking and sleping three or four hours. and you wake up with all that sugar running in your system. buprenex made me feel like that. but even that was better than regular.
>
> so where am i now? nowhere else.
>
> when i read that they were going to finally "legalize" buprenex without iv i thought that is great. to me anything is great. medications are to the point where they are beyond laughable. it's a cyclical fuck you that goes around and around, through the pens of the doctors, the rules of the MDA, and the companies of creating. adn when it is finally complete. complete meaning something we are not allowed ot understand. we can run like little children to the candy store, hoping, praying, for this one to help us breathe freely, walk easily, think hopefullly, anything but living in this cracked broken museum. where everyone's make up has worn off, showers are broken, clocks tick louder and thicker each day. each and everyone's eyes glue to the hands that turn the dial of time that we are trapped into being a part of. please pill give me the ability to just walk out side. please pill give the power to pick up the phone. please pill give me the power to stop this pounding that wants nothing more than for me to chope myself in two. please pill make me what i used to be. please pill just give me a day full of silence where i am not scared of everything but my shadow. since it has disapeered long times ago.
>
>
> i take
> lithium
> neurontin
> adderall
> risperdal
> clonzapan
> celexa
>
>
> they help. but i wake up each day with nothing to do. i can't work. if i did work i would fuck up my SSI disability. which i was just rejected so i ahve to appeal. i went through five tests of there's. flunking each one but still they denied me.
>
> what works? i don't know
>
> what doesn't work? i know tha much better
>
> i feel for everyone who writes here. it has only been ten years since i was forced to join the pill army. since then there have been ups and downs. now there is nothng. a numbness. that is all. if something hits me. a feeeling. it seems to be addressed by everything but me. but still i have the feeling of wanting to cry. and that has not been blackked out yet. i used to write five hundred poems a year on my computer. i looked under 2001 and there were maybe twenty. and they were bad. i wrote one play and twenty poems.
>
> i hate writing. you have nothing around you but the pile of weight you sit on which is connected only to you. the one thing you want to get away from
>
> that is why i have always found my deepest and most pounding drug to be acting. if only i could find another part. for those three four months i am free. nothing hurts as much as now.
>
>
> sorry for the long rambling pompous letter
>
> good luck everyone
>
> and i hope for whatever' sakes buprenex becomes legalized. it's all a bunch of bullshit anyway. in terms of what get's approved and what doesn't.
Posted by Sally green on June 12, 2002, at 18:22:06
In reply to Re: hello everyone i have not had the honor to meet, posted by Sally green on June 12, 2002, at 18:12:41
Reese:
That last letter was for you. I hit the tab to add your name, BUT?? New to Psycho-Babble, sartin to catch on.
Sally
Posted by ShelliR on June 12, 2002, at 20:46:47
In reply to Re: sidetrack from Addiction » ShelliR, posted by Sally green on June 12, 2002, at 17:31:53
> Hi Shelli:
>
> Thanks for the letter. First, Buprenex is approved and has been for over 10 years for use
> in pain management and depression. I have a PDR that is from 1994 and it is there. Only not for detox. If you would like to email me at my home: heartofgold@worldnet.att.net, there is a US pharmacy that sells Buprenex for 2.72 per ampul. I could not believe it. They sell 30 for about 87.00 and 90 for about 249.00. If you would like to chat I'll will be happy to give you the sites etc. Dr. Bob already warned me about discussing foreign sites, but just in case. I am going to get away from this clinic because I know that it is only a matter of time and these folks are nabbed. Am going to my family doctor tomarrow to request that he prescribe the Buprenex.
>
> Thanks
> Sally
Hi Sally,Buprenex is presently available only in IM form, in the United States. I was referring to the impending approval of the FDA for SUBLINGUAL buprenorphine (Buprenex) for detox, in addition to pain. Once it becomes available SUBLINGUALLY, it will be available for distribution from a doctor's office (after filling out an application for detox) and should generally be more accessible for pain in general. This is because, in my experience, many doctors now are not comfortable with prescribing a medication intended for IM only, even if it can be used intranasally. Several doctors who will not prescribe it now, have told me they will be willing to prescribe it once it becomes available sublingually. My present pain doctor told me that he won't prescribe an IM drug intranasally because there are no studies that prove that long term use will not cause damage to the nasal passages. After FDA approval he will be willing to change my present opiate to buprenorphine.
Re repeat messages and corrections. (I realize you are new to the board.) Only hit the submit your post button once. If you realize you want to make a correction, correct it under "review the previous post," down below and submit that instead. If you realize after you have already submitted the post that you have forgotten to include the name of the previous poster, or other short mistake, just rewrite the title of the previous message and check "add name of previous poste" or any other corrections you can make on one line. Then where it says messge, check no message, just post subject. That way, the whole message is not repeated again, just the title.
Still confused? Understanding will come with time.
Shelli
Posted by Sally green on June 13, 2002, at 7:08:09
In reply to Re: sidetrack from Addiction » Sally green, posted by ShelliR on June 12, 2002, at 20:46:47
Hi Shelli:
Thanks for the info. I have yet to hear about the internasal spray. I do know that they are using some type of sublingual form at this illegal detox where I first discovered Buprenex. A friend said the doc gave him some type of candy form Buprenex. I am not sure whether you read my first letter to Reese. There is a clinic here in PA that is operating illegally. Atleast I believe it is illegal, at the very least unethical. They promote their detox as if they are operating within the law. They demand that everyone provide proof of some type pain or depression. They never follow any of their promised protocals for detox and convert everyone to a pain management or depression patient and carry on services for as long as 2 years or more. I have talked with other patients and unfortunately many people just do not care or aren't interested. Kind of a free drug pushing bin and "atleast they are not snorting or shooting Oxycotin". Where do you go with that thype mentality? I have suffered with pain for 22 years, from auto accidents etc. This is serious business. Be careful, sister, with the opiates. I always considered my self strong willed. Growing up in the 70's and 80's thought I would never fall into that trap of actually getting addicted to Oxy's but I did. Very vicious drug! I expect that the FDA will change their allowance on this drug, like Qualuids, in the 80's and doctors will eventually be allowed to only prescribe them for terminally ill cancer patients. The problem, as most times, is created by doctors. Just because patients ask does not mean that doctors should automatically give prescriptions. I know a woman receiving Oxycotin for menstrual cramps! My family physician is very compassionate and has followed my pain situation for over 10 years. I hope that he will see me through this situation too. This bogus clinic is short lived and unfortunately when the FDA does make serious attmepts to approve Buprenex for detox it will be these kinds of greedy offices that will red flag even the most sincere doctors who would truly detox addicts with Buprenex. Everything about this clinic stinks of MONEY ONLY!!! I have friends with no serious past injuries who are being given as much as 7.25 ampuls of Buprenex per day. Documentation of their so called injuries show back problems that a wise doctor would recommend heat, rest and maybe give the patient 15 regular vicodins. You seem like a wise girl, I am sure you can see the problem here!! let me add, that most of the people getting these very high doses are millionaires!
Thanks for the information on this site. I like it here. My problems have been with the reload. So I try it again thinking that my message will not show until it has correctly reloaded. I found out last night that is not true.
Please watch if you are on Oxycotins. They creep on you slowly. SLOWLY you need alittle more to experience pain relief. The next thing you know the situation is out of control! Maybe your body is different and I will pray that is. The Buprenex is great! After 22 years of suffering with pain I have the most significant pain relief ever. I have a complete ossification of the ligament in the left side of my neck, from C2-C7, following fusion surgery at C1-C2, in 1994. Every vertabrae in my neck has been affected. Hip probs from using the bone from the right hip. Blah Blah Blah. I don't harp on that crap. Really good drug if used by professionals and monitored. They are telling my friends at this clinic that Buprenex is not addictive. BULL! My friend has gone from using 3 amps per day in February to 7.25 in June. 100 Serex and 100 restorils per month?? Noooooo, he isn't addicted to anything!! RIGHT!! Who could take 3 restorils per night to sleep? Over prescribing!! All about money!!! This office makes you buy all of your prescriptions at their on premises pharmacy. AKA...A chick with a key around her neck, pushing a drug cart!! They sell supplies, everything! Office visit and meds cost on average $500 per month. These are the kinds of folks that hurt are ability to get Buprenex and hurt people who truly need help with pain and/or detox. It is my opinion that Buprenex offers a great possibility for detoxing heroin and oxy addicts. However, once word gets around about these clinics "sneaking" patients into detox, over prescribing Buprenex due to the ignorance/greed of the doctor and clinic, it may take many more years to have the drug approved. FDA will have to rethink their guidleines for distribution and that takes time! Unfortunately, I am not familiar with your pain, but I don't have alot of time for these folks to make up their minds. I have suffered 22 years. My entire adult life has included severe neck pain and problems! This pain has affected my schooling, work, entire life!! Please share your thoughts. As I stated in my last letter, there is a pharmacy here in the US that sells Buprenex for 2.72 a vial, should your doctor decide to prescribe. Find a new doctor!!! I am learning that they are not all as narrow minded about the IM thing! If YOU, the patient, doesn't mind, why should the doctor? People use IM drugs everyday for things like diabetes! There are children that have to treat there diabetes in this manner! Sounds like a cop out by your doc. Maybe he/her just doesn't know about Buprenex and is not concerned with finding out. drug reps play a big part in the drugs that doctors choose to prescribe. there aren't many Buprenex reps around!! LOL!! If you have documentation of the pros to the drug and the FDA quidelines try approaching your request in that manner. Ignorance by doctors is not unheard of. Maybe he just needs someone like you to show him what a benefit Buprenex may be to your pain management and how much less of an addictive threat it puts on your life. Never know!
Nice chatting with you. Let's keep discussing the Buprenex and share any information on its progress as it sees it 's way to approval for detox.
Thanks
Sally
Posted by Elizabeth on June 13, 2002, at 21:48:19
In reply to Re: opioid stuff and dealing with doctors » Elizabeth, posted by sally green on June 11, 2002, at 7:44:54
> Hi Liz:
Elizabeth, please. But hi there. I think you were responding to Shelli in one of those posts, not to me. The right angle bracket (>) in a post means that the text on that line is from someone else's post that the author is responding to. So when I was responding to Shelli, parts of her post appeared in mine with >'s on the left margin, followed by a new paragraph (with no >'s) which is my response.
I looked at some more of your posts, and I think that you might be mistaken about the clinic you're attending; I'm not convinced they're doing anything illegal, and at any rate, I don't think you can get a prescription for Buprenex (for addiction) from your GP. Have you tapered off the Buprenex? It shouldn't be difficult; it doesn't seem to have any withdrawal symptoms (when I miss a dose I get depressed, but not sick). After that you're left with the problem of keeping yourself off drugs; I think the best way to do that is to build a stable life and a good support system for yourself.
Buprenex sure is expensive, yeah. I think that the retail cost is about $3 per ampule. There is at least one generic, but it costs about the same. How are you administering the Buprenex, BTW? I would think that they wouldn't want to give syringes to addicts. Or is it a residential program?
Buprenorphine isn't actually approved (by the FDA) for depression, but doctors can prescribe it for off-label indications if they feel it's indicated (addiction is an exception).
You're right that OxyContin can be addictive. But the media hype about it is preventing patients who need it for pain from being able to get it. This is a disgrace. Buprenorphine is minimally addictive; like I said, you shouldn't have trouble discontinuing it if you try to taper it. I've heard it said that it takes an addictive drug plus addictive behavior to create an addiction -- it's really true, isn't it.
I haven't found that doctors are especially careless about prescribing many drugs at once; you'll find that many people on this board are taking combinations (mainly for mood disorders). I take Effexor, Wellbutrin, and Trileptal (the latter for epilepsy) as well as Buprenex, plus several others as-needed (Ambien, Xanax, propranolol, Soma), and my psychiatrist and GP and both sensitive to the possibility of interactions.
> I know people who spend the rest of their lives on Methadone! What kind of detox is that?
That's called methadone maintenance, not detox, and it's by far the most effective treatment for opioid addiction. You should consider it if your current plan doesn't work and you end up relapsing.
BTW, if you're interested in discussing psychological treatments, there's a board called psycho-social-babble. There is also a newer board, psycho-babble about faith, for discussing religion and spiritual issues.
-elizabeth
Posted by Elizabeth on June 13, 2002, at 22:34:45
In reply to Re: sidetrack from Addiction » ShelliR, posted by Sally green on June 13, 2002, at 7:08:09
More for Sally (gosh you posted a lot there!)...
> Thanks for the info. I have yet to hear about the internasal spray.
There isn't one, although a compounding pharmacy could make one. You can use Buprenex intranasally, but it's kind of a hassle: you need to lie down and tilt your head back, then squirt the solution from a syringe into your nose, then stay lying down for a few minutes. You can also use it sublingually, but you have to be very careful not to swallow it.
> I do know that they are using some type of sublingual form at this illegal detox where I first discovered Buprenex.
That's Subutex (the sublingual tab) or Suboxone (same with naloxone added).
> They promote their detox as if they are operating within the law. They demand that everyone provide proof of some type pain or depression. They never follow any of their promised protocals for detox and convert everyone to a pain management or depression patient and carry on services for as long as 2 years or more.
I think I see what they're trying to do. I think it's technically legal, though perhaps a little bit cheesy. But the reasons they're doing it are good ones, though perhaps they're not doing what you'd like them to be doing. Anyway, what protocol were they planning to use when you were admitted?
> They demand that everyone provide proof of some type pain or depression.
This is what makes it legal.
> I expect that the FDA will change their allowance on this drug, like Qualuids, in the 80's and doctors will eventually be allowed to only prescribe them for terminally ill cancer patients.
I doubt it. The medical profession -- and society in general -- is coming to recognize the need to treat pain in all patients, not just those who're dying. Anyway, oxycodone (the active ingredient in OxyContin) is similar to morphine, except that oxycodone has better bioavailability when given orally. It's not like it's some new superdrug or something. OxyContin is a sustained-release formulation, which is very useful for people with chronic pain.
> The problem, as most times, is created by doctors.
On the contrary: "medical addiction" is rare. Patients who abuse oxycodone, of course, are risking becoming addicted; pain patients who take the medication as directed seldom become addicts. These days I think that people who take oxycodone recreationally probably get it through "diversion."
> I have friends with no serious past injuries who are being given as much as 7.25 ampuls of Buprenex per day.
I don't know if that's a lot, it depends on the route of administration. If it's sublingual, and if the person is a drug addict, I wouldn't be surprised. Addicts sometimes need whopping doses.
> Documentation of their so called injuries show back problems that a wise doctor would recommend heat, rest and maybe give the patient 15 regular vicodins.
Have you read their charts???
> The Buprenex is great! After 22 years of suffering with pain I have the most significant pain relief ever.
That's good! I think you might want to consider using it long-term for your chronic pain. One thing I've noticed that I find very impressive is that I haven't become tolerant to it -- neither to the antidepressant nor to the analgesic effect -- after taking it for almost 2 years. That's unusual, though; certainly, people taking full-agonist opioids for long-term or chronic pain will need to increase the dose. This is not necessarily evidence of addiction; tolerance is a normal response to taking these drugs regularly.
> 100 Serex and 100 restorils per month??
That's not unreasonable. Serax (not -ex) is taken several times a day. Restoril isn't great for long-term insomnia, but a lot of doctors use it (I don't know if 100 is a reasonable amount in a month because you didn't specify the dosage -- benzos come in multiple strength).
> This office makes you buy all of your prescriptions at their on premises pharmacy. AKA...A chick with a key around her neck, pushing a drug cart!!
She's just the delivery girl; it's the same in hospitals. They have a pharmacy to dispense the stuff.
> It is my opinion that Buprenex offers a great possibility for detoxing heroin and oxy addicts. However, once word gets around about these clinics "sneaking" patients into detox, over prescribing Buprenex due to the ignorance/greed of the doctor and clinic, it may take many more years to have the drug approved.
That may be true. I think that the worse problem is the patients who try to scam doctors into giving them drugs.
> FDA will have to rethink their guidleines for distribution and that takes time!
Distribution? What do you mean?
> My entire adult life has included severe neck pain and problems! This pain has affected my schooling, work, entire life!!
I feel for you -- depression has affected me the same way.
> As I stated in my last letter, there is a pharmacy here in the US that sells Buprenex for 2.72 a vial, should your doctor decide to prescribe.
That's a reasonable price (vials are different from ampules, BTW). I think I mentioned elsewhere that it costs around $3/ampule at the pharmacy where I get it.
> People use IM drugs everyday for things like diabetes!
Diabetics don't -- they inject insulin subcutaneously (have you seen the syringes they use? the needles are waaaaay too small to reach a muscle...but I'm told that addicts like them for IVing). Very different.
-elizabeth
Posted by Sally green on June 14, 2002, at 6:53:46
In reply to Re: opioid stuff and dealing with doctors » sally green, posted by Elizabeth on June 13, 2002, at 21:48:19
Hi Elizabeth:
I live in a small town filled with folks with too much time on their hands and lots of addicted people. First, I have done much research on the subject of Buprenex. It is illegal to use Buprenex for detox at this time. It has not been approved by the FDA. If the state is considering it's use for detox they must have an Investigational New Drug Certificate to detox anyone. These people know they are operating illeaglly. Consider this: You need to detox..You call the clinic and they explain the detox program to you, but INSIST that you have some type proof of pain or depression...You can not be admitted into the program without it..You begin the program, they never make mention of the 3 detox programs that they promote on their internet site and 2 years later you are still in the program. The maximum time period of the 3 detox programs is 6 WEEKS! Sounds fishy!! I have found out that it sounds very fishy to those in authority also!!
Buprenex is approved by the FDA for pain management and depression. I have suffered for 22 years with pain and surgeries. Finally, Buprenex has given me controll of my pain. I could addicted to the drug if I continued to participate at this clinic. They will hand you all that YOU REQUEST!! To be purchased at their in house pharmacy only!!
I recently visited my family physian, who has followed my care for 12 years, he did not have any problems prescribing me the Buprenex.
I firmly agree with you about the addictive personality etc. That is the main aspect that all of these programs lack, providing a professional to discuss the person problems and find out why they continue to abuse their bodies with drugs or alcohol. There are alot of people on Methadone in my community. Have you ever tried to come down off of Meth? These people are frantic if they miss their 4am appointment. Nice thing about the Buprenex. None of that! The longer that I am on the Buprenex, I realize that I may not have been much of an addict, just a person with alot of pain who spent too many years on opiates and they became a bad habit!! Don't miss them or need them!! Usually when I make up my mind I keep it made UP!! Stopped drinking, cold turkey 6 years ago, have never touched a drop since. One day at a Time!!
There does seem to be alot of people taking more drugs related to psycological happenings in their lives. Don't take offense if I did not state that correctly. I have never had any problems with depression etc and any OCD etc, God helped me discover what a waste of my valuable and such limited time those things were, so I thank him for that!!
Good luck, thanks for the imput about this site. Yes, I am new and learning, but this is the best site I have found for people who diligently keep up with their discussions!
Sally
Posted by reese1 on June 28, 2002, at 17:25:04
In reply to Re: hello everyone i have not had the honor to meet, posted by Sally green on June 12, 2002, at 18:12:41
hello everyone,
it's one of those days for whatever reason i've decided to pop up again. though this time i have a very specific reason. I had a return visit with a doctor by the name of Robert Cancro. He's a big shot. He's head of psych at NYU. Over a year ago I had taken massive brain scans that Dr. Cancro and another doctor named Dr.John had been using to try to pin point what medication and what exaCTLY your brain is doing. Because of the person who made me take these tests (which i did not want to take) who was my dad, well, after i took the tests the Dr tried numerous times to get me back in the office but my father would have nothing to do with it. I know this sounds strange since he was the one who made me go initially.
Now flash forward a year. I need doctors for my SSD so my dad says we'll go see him again. Personally I haven't been well and moving closer and closer to the end of the robe that seems to have endless streams to keep me from totally falling.
Dr. Cancro was terrified of what i have been going through. He said my chart, was totally abnormal across the board. In his words "there is way to much noise going on"
I can not tell you what a wonderful relief this was. I started crying. Crying because I wasn't a weak, pathetic, bullshitter and crying because something is totally wrong. Cancro found it totally shocking that I was able to get through school and perform as an actor since he thought it would be nearly impossible for me to memorize lines. He has done thousands of tests, of depressed, bi-polor, schizophenic, add, occ, etc. But the chart he had in front of him, mine, was what he said "more fucked up than all of them" and he looked my dad straight in the eyes and he said "you are lucky he is still alive"
He then looked at me and said "am i right"I just cried.
So what does all this mean?
Nothing.
Except he wanted to know if i would be willing to go into NYU psych for three weeks (or who knows) to try different medication.
My first reaction was, i have tried all the different medication but then he said but you can't go on like you are and I said okay, i'll think about it.I go in on the 8th of July. Since that day, me and my girlfriend have been fighting. She's very upset by everything, and she's exhausted of being in love with someone who changes moods so fast she has almost had to give up trying to catch up. but we love each other and will move on. But I have felt very bad because I have such anger running inside me. About the fact that this information was kept from me for a year and nothing was done. and because i am so angry i lose my temper with my girlfriedn, debbie. I swear i can't help it.
When I say i lose my temper it's not yelling and screaming it's more of just being cold and quiet.
Plus my friend who i care for a lot is in the hospital because his t cells are down to eight and my other friend is in the psych ward, i met the latter one in an outpatient program a year ago. the former friend i have known for eight years.
I just wanted to let you all know because i guess i'm just really scared. I hate hospitals. i've been in them to many times and they only get more and more obviously cruel.sorry if this is hard to understand or can't be understood at all.
I want to let everyone know how much you all have helped me even if i don't write that much. So thank you. Thank you Elizabeth, Thank you Sally, Thank you everyone thank you
doug
Posted by katekite on June 28, 2002, at 17:43:55
In reply to Re: non fiction news i wanted to let everyone know, posted by reese1 on June 28, 2002, at 17:25:04
It's such a relief when a doctor seems to understand AND is straight with you! Its so rare.
After 6 months of feeling everything was wrong and no one was being straight with me (always hesitating before they said something, not just saying what was on their mind) I found a pdoc who said, "I have no clue what is going on with you! You just make no sense. I'm not willing to prescribe any more drugs until we figure this out". That was the best shrink appointment I've ever had.
I'm sorry you had to go so long without finding someone equally forth-coming.
As to hospitals: it's not necessarily a bad thing. They are definitely the safest place to experiment with meds. And there is a lot one can get out of the experience that can be useful. Obviously hospitals vary: I've been in two (one that I would like to vacation at, and one that sucked). But even the bad one had useful aspects.
It can be scary, not knowing what's going to happen. For me what helps the most is to think it out in terms of what I'm hoping to get out of it. A better diagnosis? A better drug? A rest? A few weeks of safety? If lack of privacy and room to think is an issue, consider skipping a meal or a meeting here and there to get a few moments to yourself.
kate
Posted by IsoM on June 28, 2002, at 19:11:00
In reply to Re: non fiction news i wanted to let everyone know, posted by reese1 on June 28, 2002, at 17:25:04
Doug, I've read your posts off & on in the past but had little to contribute. What a thing to finally learn but I'm glad for you. Having someone really believing you & finding out there's a cause for all this must be such a relief. I hope something beneficial for you now will come of this.
I hate hospitals myself - to me, they're a place of last resort but it has to start somewhere. They'll need to monitor your reactions & progress. It's going to get better. You've been incredibly brave through all this. I know I haven't been able to give you anything useful but it's so good to know the answer is in sight for you. Thank you for letting us know.
Posted by reese1 on June 29, 2002, at 2:40:15
In reply to hospitals, posted by katekite on June 28, 2002, at 17:43:55
i've been doing this for close to ten years. and i don't know him and he doesn't know me. the only respectable quality he has is he doesn't act as though he does.
for hospitals, i've been in them way to many times for them to be anything nearing helpful. in the beginning, it could be the novelty, that gives one the illusion that there is help here but soon maybe if your smart, your first time, you realize that hospitals are nothing more then very old time capsules. which they shove your head and legs in and make sure you don't cut them off. besides that they can two things. drug you or shock you.
Posted by reese1 on July 10, 2002, at 13:11:33
In reply to Re: non fiction news » reese1, posted by IsoM on June 28, 2002, at 19:11:00
hello, hi,
i have yet to reach the hospital door. i am supposed to go in this monday. for three to four weeks. each and every time i think of it. i'm scared. frightened. terrified. the last visit at Columbia was a combination of all of the above.
and i can not stop my belief that when you are in. you are almost invisible. if lucky you might be able to connect with a fellow person. but the more times you go in the more callous you become and you know in most cases the person you become friend's with is headed in a direction that is just to awful to see. watch.
the doctors never seem to be there. and when they visit it's seven am and your finally a sleep. i couldn't get away from the feeling that noone that works there wants to be there. except for one or two.
and why is it that there is nothing for one to do. in some hospitals, awhile back, they use to have meetings and such. but now it seems they have nothing except for needle point.
i am so scared of the doors shutting and the bright light and white floor, single lined bed, bleached sheets that feel as if they want no more visitors and it all feels so strange. like a shot of something that turns the color of your veins.
and then they give you your pills but you have no control over any of it. what doesnt work for you doesn't matter to them. your charts are parked behind the wrong last name and each new doctor ask the question the last doctor started with and there never seems to be an end only a denail by the insurance or discharge.
i'm sorry this is so fucking negative. but i have had, in the earlier years, positive expierences in hospitals, but that virginity is long ago. now i see it in a different light. it might not be the right light. but the light is dense, smothered and cold.
the guy that's admittin me has told me nothing. i don't know if i should be tappering off of my meds which i would like to do so i don't have to waste time in the hospital when i can contribute out here. i know which one's i can go down on without repurcusions etc. i took another brain test a few weeks ago and have heard nothing about it. i have no idea what drugs they want to try or what to expect.
sorry for whining. i'm just scared.
thank you everyone
doug
Posted by ShelliR on July 11, 2002, at 9:56:46
In reply to hospital news » IsoM, posted by reese1 on July 10, 2002, at 13:11:33
Hi Doug,
I just wanted you to know that Iso has left the board because of the contraversy re a blocking error. So don't feel bad that she hasn't answered you.
If you want her e-mail address, write to me at stacy1012km@yahoo.com.
I HATE to confirm your negativity, but that is exactly what I experienced during my hospitalizations of this year. Exactly. The only thing that I see wrong in your post, is that you *do* have the right to refuse medications if you want to.
Bring some good books, and if you have a laptop computer, bring that. They did let me go on as much as I wanted, and that helped a lot. If you have close friends, have them visit you.Expect little from the staff. If you get more than nothing, that will be a pleasant surprise. Try not to take their lack of feeling, personally. Try to find one staff member that seems caring and ask to speak to him/her when you are scared. It sometimes is hard not to allow an impersonal staff break down whatever self esteem you have left. So go in and keep remembering that this is not about relationships, just about medications and getting you on track.
Give it a chance. Once I've got through the panic of the first few days, it didn't seem as bad as I initially felt. I absolutely felt panic once I signed myself in, but it did go away.
You can always sign yourself out.
Even if it's against medical advise, you are in charge of your treatment. There are always these threats that your insurance will not pay if you sign out AMA. Not true unless this is explicitly stated in your contract with your insurance company.Hopefully I am wrong, wrong, wrong, and your stay is much more positive than mine. It couldn't be worse and I survived it. And it may even be great, if you come out with a medication plan that feels right and good.
Remember, you really thought this pdoc guy knew what he was talking about and you felt a lot of support from him. And he's doing testing which is a very good sign. So there really is a good chance that he will be able to help you. Call him as soon as possible (or fax him) and ask the questions that you've said he hasn't answered, before you go into the hospital (if this feels appropriate to you.)
I'm sorry also that my post is so negative. I just want you to be prepared for the worst, just incase. Good luck Doug, and if you need support and are able to write to PB, we are here.Shelli R.
Posted by mind101 on August 3, 2002, at 2:26:22
In reply to reese to cisco, posted by reese1 on February 18, 2002, at 16:12:59
iwas wondering if anybody has been prescribed 'subutex'/bruprenorphine sublingual and attempted iv injection it before. if so what was the technique used ???
Posted by Cisco on August 4, 2002, at 17:57:40
In reply to Re: bruprenorphine/subutex, posted by mind101 on August 3, 2002, at 2:26:22
> iwas wondering if anybody has been prescribed 'subutex'/bruprenorphine sublingual and attempted iv injection it before. if so what was the technique used ???
I have heard it is done. Unfortunately, this type of "Abuse" is giving Buprenorphine a bad name, and is prompting our government to crackdown on all available sources, Domestic and International. What was once easy to procure, is fast becoming nearly impossible. So sad, but so true!
Cisco
Posted by reese1 on September 7, 2002, at 10:47:01
In reply to Re: bruprenorphine/subutex, posted by Cisco on August 4, 2002, at 17:57:40
HELLO, it's reese or real name doug again. i guess i pop in here when i feel down but now down enough that i can't turn on the computer.
just to talk about myself for a moment and tell you what's been going on. few months back i spoke of going into NYU because of the brilliance of the head big man there called Dr. Robert Cancro, if you did a search on him he would show up all over the place. He did tests on me previously and they showed in his terms "my mind is basically fucked up" he runs neurological tests. So when i met him last june/july he could tell in my face i was pretty much on my way out so he wanted me in the hospital as soon as possible. he said my tests were all over the place but showed signs that i had parkinson's even though i don't have it exactly. my dopamine is non-existen and movements. but to make it clear i don't suffer from parkinson's it's just how my mind showed on the tests was that of someone with parkinson's, bipolar, etc. the one thing i didn't have according to the test was depression. which was teh fucked up thing.
so i go into the hospital. three weeks stay i am told. sixth time for me. i hate them more than words can say. in the begining with psych wards there was for me, a novelty of help, now it is purely sad. i see everyone from where they are to where they are going to what they are going to be. and it never looks good. i can't read. i can't write. i can't sit still. i just watch the door opening and closing and thinking how easy it would be to walk out with someone but then my insurance would be fucked.
so after the first day nothing. second day nothing. i knew they were going to take me off my neurontin and lithium. but i asked if i would be spending time in the hospital tapering. i've tapered from everything so i definetly do not need to inpatient to do that. well i walk in i'm down to something like 600mg neurontin 300 mg lithium all other drugs are the same. they raise me back up to my normal doses. third day nothing. i'm going crazy at this point. the residentail doctor was very kind and just as frustrated since i was dr. cancro's patient and he runs the show he didn't know what to do since cancro was working with me special. 4th day he shows up we go in his office. he grunts alot. then speaks quietly with straight forward bogard type lingo. hmmm....shitt..... so he says how are you? shitty. i hate it here. i'm not doing well. what are you taking. i tell him how they've raised me up on the neurontin and lithium and he looks at the resident like you fucking idiot why don't you listen to the kid he knows what he's talking about but how or why should he listent to me. so he says i want you to do this one test. i'm thinking i've been here for four days and i'm going to take another test i could do as an out-patient. let again to remind you that inpatient is so fucking painful to me. i cry when i wake up my mind spinning from past feelings of being there when there was hope and now having no nails left to bite.
so this test he says i'm going to take. then he speaks in doctor talk about adding something. it turns out to be bromocriptine. parkinson's dopamine agonists. wow. maybe that will help. as i walk out i ask if we could switch anti depressants, and switch from something besides the adderal. no we'll do that later. he also took me off risperdal because any anti-psychotic sucks your dopamine he says.
so in the hall way the res approaches me looking kind of nervous and sad and says don't get mad but that test he mentioned. i said yeah. he said you took it a week before you came in here. i thought what the fuck. my meds are no different now. why take this test again. so i go take it again. results are more or less the same. i tell the resident doc that i'm supposed to be here for three weeks and his jaw drops. why? he says. that's what he said. that can't be the resident says.
so they take me off something and add depakote. my history with depakote is only a history. i took it for five or six years. felt no side effects. felt nothing at all except the helping of rapid cycling. it's now thursday i was admitted monday. it turns out good old dr. cancro is going on vacation for a month come tommorow.
three weeks? here. when he is the only doctor who has permission to do something since my case is so strange. so i want to get out friday. anybody who has been in a psych ward a day is nothing to do with a normal day. and the weekends are not weekends. staying friday sat sun mon is much different than friday. but they won't let me leave because they want to see how i do on depakote. my mom calls telling them i've been on it for years and it's not an issue. i tell them. but then they tell my mom they want to get the test results from the bronocriptine. so i wait over the weekend. they take blood for the depakote not the bromocriptine.i leave monday. i have to wait six weeks to see the doctor again. till then i take what i was basically taking before i went in, except for the bromocriptine and depakote. which is nothing.
my appt comes sept 4th. i'm scared. don't ask why. walk in. he says sit down. then looks through my notes. asks what i'm taking. which bothered me cause i hoped he would have an idea, which would lead to a plan he had set up to move to a different type of medication. he writes down what i'm taking. looks at me again. and asks so how are you doing? not good. not good at all. the same as before. hmmmm he says. well before we do anything i want you to take a test then we can move on...he gets on the phone and calls someone the guy on the phone says he's been here already. the dr says that's okay. he gives me the name of the guy to go see. it's the same guy i've seen twice in the last three months. my drugs haven't changed enought to redo the test. i ask him in mercy if there is something else we can do
he told me so much stuff when it was me and my dad in there, how many medications were out there to get a handle on this, to raise my dopamine, to help me, all i must say without a promise of success but most of all there was a promise of alot of attempts. so i leave with nothing but an appointment to get the same test done that i've already taken twice. even the guy who does the tests was confused the last time i came for the second time. all the testing is what you call practice testing for possible connections with shit. i don't remember what that's called. so i ask him almost in a whimper isn't there something ...and he looks down...then up..and gets up and goes into his closet and gives me to same boxes of geodone. an anti-psychotic. i thought these suck out my dopamine i said. no at a low level. i walked out and didn't want to open my eyes for the rest of the day
i firmly believe that the only person i have left who can give me anysort of help is myself. i might lose but i have been to so many professionals
i'm going to oakland to see my mom and she asked if i wanted to go see the bi-polar dept there. and i said thanks mom but to spend one hour with a doctor telling my story again to be given the same medication i've already taken over and over again
but one thought i had was for anyone with expierence with Mclean
i know elizabeth does
i read they have an outpatient program
i'm sure they have an impatient program as well
and they seem to be up on latest clinical tests
if i went out there for some time would they allow me to work with them on drugs such as buprenex. the time i tried buprenex was a disaster. the shrink who told me to take it at the same time had me detoxing from celexa, adderall, neurontin, lithium, risperdal, all i was taking was wellbutrin, buprenex, topomax (which my insurance wouldn't pay for) and lamactal which takes months to work
so that was not a fair chance
please help me
thank youreese/doug
sorry for such a long letter
Posted by reese1 on September 7, 2002, at 12:01:31
In reply to ghost is back from DR. ROBERT CANCRO » Cisco, posted by reese1 on September 7, 2002, at 11:44:39
please please
anyone i am beyond desperate. just turned 34. drugs are no longer of use. have tried all in all combinations. besides the latest disaster at NYU psych, i have no hope left. except maybe trying to become outpatient or inpatient at Mclain since i know they have used/tried clinical medications before.
if anyone has any knowledge or ideas about anything please write back
thank you so much
reese/doug
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