![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BobJ1961 on June 17, 2001, at 7:32:48
Hello everyone!
I've been reading messages on this site for a month or so now. I feel as though I've gotten to know a lot of you, even though you don't know me < g >.
Anyway, I came here because I suffer from severe depression. It's mostly treatment resistant too, and I've had it for 10 years now. I'm now 39 years old, and I can honestly say that I have not lived during my 30's! I guess that means that I've lost 25% of my life so far?
In the beginning, I had excellent results with Prozac (the benefits lasted about 2 years). After that point, it has been a neverending struggle to find SOMETHING that worked as well. Ironically, Prozac was the first drug I tried, and the LAST drug that worked! LOL
I've tried all the tricyclics, and none of those helped. In fact, most of them made me 10x worse (suicidal!) The newer SSRI's either caused extreme anxiety, sleeplessness, or psychosis. Wellbutrin didn't work either. I have not tried any of the MAOI's.
I stopped seeing my psychiatrist about 9 months ago. All he seemed to be doing was trying new things on me at random. I concluded that I could do better on my own--I started looking at what drugs helped me in the past, and which ones harmed me. I came to some interesting conclusions.
I even got desperate enough to try stuff that was illegal (like GHB!) GHB has worked wonderfully, but it's too short acting. I've been using it for about 10 weeks now, and I can already tell that I'm developing a problem with it. The "benefits" are lasting for shorter periods of time, while the side-effects are growing more severe and longer lasting (typical signs of drug addiction!)
My next step is to wean myself off the GHB and then try L-Tryptophan (in the evenings). My theory is that maybe I depleted my serotonin "stores" through long-term use of SSRI's (namely Prozac). And since L-Tryptophan is a serotonin precursor, maybe it will help to replenish those serotonin stores?
I'd also like to try L-Deprenyl (because it has neural regenerative and/or protective effects on the striatal dopaminergic system). I feel this stuff might benefit me too, because I abused cocaine/crack in the early 90's. Perhaps I did some damage to my dopaminergic system?
I've also been reading the message threads on the use of opioids to treat treatment-resistant depression. I suffer from chronic pain too, so perhaps there's something worth looking into there as well?
I also have Lyme Disease (had all the classic symptoms between the ages of 10 and 14 years of age). It went untreated for about 27 years. I had pretty good results with aggressive antibiotic therapy (after 12 months of continuous treatment) but I had to stop due to side-effects (problems with yeast infection). Since discontinuing the abx, all my symptoms have returned.
I fear that I've had Lyme Disease for too long now, and that it too might be "treatment resistant." As you can see, my medical history is complicated.
I'm a single father of two young children (ages 7 and 11) so I'm DESPERATELY trying to find something to help my depression. When my depression is under control, all my other medical problems become more "tolerable" (and I can then engage in activities that are healthy, like eating right and getting regular exercise).
Anyway, nice to finally "meet" you all! I suspect I'll be hanging around here for a long time to come < g >.
Sincerely, Bob :)
Posted by Victoria on June 17, 2001, at 10:57:15
In reply to New to Psycho-Babble, posted by BobJ1961 on June 17, 2001, at 7:32:48
Hi there Bob!
Such a nice way to introduce yourself. I am also a single mother so I feel for you. This is very interesting stuff. Can you explain about the serotonin stores? I thought that ADs were going to correct the imbalance, not make it worse. (I know I may be naive) My father was a long term cocaine user and he was taking some L- something for a long time which seemed to help so you may be on the right track. I do know about cocaine and that it damages our ability to make the brain chemical that gives that feeling. Personally, I never cared for it much, but that didn't stop me from doing a ton in the 80s. And you know, that is around the time I began to lose my ability to bounce back as quickly from things. very interesting. What else do you know about this? SOunds like you have been doing your research. Where does one get good info on these things?
So many questions, sorry I have no answers. :-)Welcome to the Board Bob!
Posted by Shar on June 17, 2001, at 11:57:15
In reply to New to Psycho-Babble, posted by BobJ1961 on June 17, 2001, at 7:32:48
Hey, Bob,
Welcome. If you've been reading for a couple of months you pretty much know what to expect in terms of interactions here.I'll start by asking if you gave all those meds a fair trial period? And getting off one (more or less) before starting another?
My dx is dysthymia, the "u r always gonna be depressed" dx. Recently my pdoc added an antipsychotic to my cocktail, and it really helped a whole lot. If you are interested in a drug, the search function will help you greatly. If not, you will still have company here; many people trying more natural or alternative approaches.
good luck--
Shar> Hello everyone!
>
> I've been reading messages on this site for a month or so now. I feel as though I've gotten to know a lot of you, even though you don't know me < g >.
>
> Anyway, I came here because I suffer from severe depression. It's mostly treatment resistant too, and I've had it for 10 years now. I'm now 39 years old, and I can honestly say that I have not lived during my 30's! I guess that means that I've lost 25% of my life so far?
>
> In the beginning, I had excellent results with Prozac (the benefits lasted about 2 years). After that point, it has been a neverending struggle to find SOMETHING that worked as well. Ironically, Prozac was the first drug I tried, and the LAST drug that worked! LOL
>
> I've tried all the tricyclics, and none of those helped. In fact, most of them made me 10x worse (suicidal!) The newer SSRI's either caused extreme anxiety, sleeplessness, or psychosis. Wellbutrin didn't work either. I have not tried any of the MAOI's.
>
> I stopped seeing my psychiatrist about 9 months ago. All he seemed to be doing was trying new things on me at random. I concluded that I could do better on my own--I started looking at what drugs helped me in the past, and which ones harmed me. I came to some interesting conclusions.
>
> I even got desperate enough to try stuff that was illegal (like GHB!) GHB has worked wonderfully, but it's too short acting. I've been using it for about 10 weeks now, and I can already tell that I'm developing a problem with it. The "benefits" are lasting for shorter periods of time, while the side-effects are growing more severe and longer lasting (typical signs of drug addiction!)
>
> My next step is to wean myself off the GHB and then try L-Tryptophan (in the evenings). My theory is that maybe I depleted my serotonin "stores" through long-term use of SSRI's (namely Prozac). And since L-Tryptophan is a serotonin precursor, maybe it will help to replenish those serotonin stores?
>
> I'd also like to try L-Deprenyl (because it has neural regenerative and/or protective effects on the striatal dopaminergic system). I feel this stuff might benefit me too, because I abused cocaine/crack in the early 90's. Perhaps I did some damage to my dopaminergic system?
>
> I've also been reading the message threads on the use of opioids to treat treatment-resistant depression. I suffer from chronic pain too, so perhaps there's something worth looking into there as well?
>
> I also have Lyme Disease (had all the classic symptoms between the ages of 10 and 14 years of age). It went untreated for about 27 years. I had pretty good results with aggressive antibiotic therapy (after 12 months of continuous treatment) but I had to stop due to side-effects (problems with yeast infection). Since discontinuing the abx, all my symptoms have returned.
>
> I fear that I've had Lyme Disease for too long now, and that it too might be "treatment resistant." As you can see, my medical history is complicated.
>
> I'm a single father of two young children (ages 7 and 11) so I'm DESPERATELY trying to find something to help my depression. When my depression is under control, all my other medical problems become more "tolerable" (and I can then engage in activities that are healthy, like eating right and getting regular exercise).
>
> Anyway, nice to finally "meet" you all! I suspect I'll be hanging around here for a long time to come < g >.
>
> Sincerely, Bob :)
Posted by rmshed on June 17, 2001, at 12:17:48
In reply to New to Psycho-Babble, posted by BobJ1961 on June 17, 2001, at 7:32:48
> Hello everyone!
>
> I've been reading messages on this site for a month or so now. I feel as though I've gotten to know a lot of you, even though you don't know me < g >.
>
> Anyway, I came here because I suffer from severe depression. It's mostly treatment resistant too, and I've had it for 10 years now. I'm now 39 years old, and I can honestly say that I have not lived during my 30's! I guess that means that I've lost 25% of my life so far?
>
> In the beginning, I had excellent results with Prozac (the benefits lasted about 2 years). After that point, it has been a neverending struggle to find SOMETHING that worked as well. Ironically, Prozac was the first drug I tried, and the LAST drug that worked! LOL
>
> I've tried all the tricyclics, and none of those helped. In fact, most of them made me 10x worse (suicidal!) The newer SSRI's either caused extreme anxiety, sleeplessness, or psychosis. Wellbutrin didn't work either. I have not tried any of the MAOI's.
>
> I stopped seeing my psychiatrist about 9 months ago. All he seemed to be doing was trying new things on me at random. I concluded that I could do better on my own--I started looking at what drugs helped me in the past, and which ones harmed me. I came to some interesting conclusions.
>
> I even got desperate enough to try stuff that was illegal (like GHB!) GHB has worked wonderfully, but it's too short acting. I've been using it for about 10 weeks now, and I can already tell that I'm developing a problem with it. The "benefits" are lasting for shorter periods of time, while the side-effects are growing more severe and longer lasting (typical signs of drug addiction!)
>
> My next step is to wean myself off the GHB and then try L-Tryptophan (in the evenings). My theory is that maybe I depleted my serotonin "stores" through long-term use of SSRI's (namely Prozac). And since L-Tryptophan is a serotonin precursor, maybe it will help to replenish those serotonin stores?
>
> I'd also like to try L-Deprenyl (because it has neural regenerative and/or protective effects on the striatal dopaminergic system). I feel this stuff might benefit me too, because I abused cocaine/crack in the early 90's. Perhaps I did some damage to my dopaminergic system?
>
> I've also been reading the message threads on the use of opioids to treat treatment-resistant depression. I suffer from chronic pain too, so perhaps there's something worth looking into there as well?
>
> I also have Lyme Disease (had all the classic symptoms between the ages of 10 and 14 years of age). It went untreated for about 27 years. I had pretty good results with aggressive antibiotic therapy (after 12 months of continuous treatment) but I had to stop due to side-effects (problems with yeast infection). Since discontinuing the abx, all my symptoms have returned.
>
> I fear that I've had Lyme Disease for too long now, and that it too might be "treatment resistant." As you can see, my medical history is complicated.
>
> I'm a single father of two young children (ages 7 and 11) so I'm DESPERATELY trying to find something to help my depression. When my depression is under control, all my other medical problems become more "tolerable" (and I can then engage in activities that are healthy, like eating right and getting regular exercise).
>
> Anyway, nice to finally "meet" you all! I suspect I'll be hanging around here for a long time to come < g >.
>
> Sincerely, Bob :)I read your post and just wanted to say that I agree with your thoughts. I too have many other medical problems that I seem to be able to cope with when my medications work for my depression. I have been on tranzene, doxepin, zoloft, celeza, paxil, prozac, remeron, serezone (sp)lithium, wellbutrin---(never again), I have added cytomel to augment prozac-it didn't help. I am now adding effexor xr to my drug regiman of prozac and doxepin. In addition to xanax to control my panic attacks and anxiety. I have bounced from one drug to another also. I recently tried Kava Kava root for anxiety, it gave me horrible night mares and I decided I would stop medicating myself. I think that I might be immune to some of the drugs that I have taken for 10+ years. I am not ready to throw in the towel yet. I come from a family where my mother and father both have suffered from bouts of mental illness. My father was so depressed in 1994 that he became a shut in and began drinking so that he could relax, he drank so much beer that he depleted his sodium levels and had a major seizure, which left him in a coma and on life support. He had developed an ulcer from all of the worrying about his depression and the beer and alcohol probably caused the ulcer. That ulcer perforated and he had to undergo emergency surgery. He had to have 1/3 of his stomach removed and after surgery developed pneumonia and coughed his stitches open and had to had surgery again. He survived, but was placed in a mental hospital after his physical illness was taken care of. He didn't respond to traditional medication for depression and was given 13 shock treatments. Today, my father is a well man. The ECT was just what he needed. I have come to the conclusion, that when the time comes and I no longer respond to my medication that I may have to undergo ECT as well. I have suffered from depression and panic disorder and anxiety since I was 14, that was the year I tried my first suicide attempt. I fight what seems to be a never ending battle with my medication and illness. I have decided to do whatever is necessary to try and see if there is something to help. I know that there is no miracle cure in a pill, but I truly feel that when our brain chemicals do not function properly, then we lose control. I am glad that you posted. I really related to your situation. I am a 41 year old divorced female, I have no children, I didn't want any, I was afraid that they would have my genes. I have surfed the net for a website for depressed people and this is the best site so far.
I am able to function on a daily basis and you would never know if you met me that I have these problems, I have learned to hide them. It has been terrible to act happy at times when I am not. I guess life goes on.
If you ever need to vent, please feel free to email me.
Becky
Posted by BobJ1961 on June 22, 2001, at 6:22:36
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble, posted by Victoria on June 17, 2001, at 10:57:15
Hi Victoria!
Sorry for taking so long to reply. Actually, I wrote a long reply just hours after you posted your message to me, but I accidently closed the browser window AND LOST EVERTHING!!! AARRRGGGG!!!
Let me try to answer your question(s) again < g >. First of all, I have a genuine interest in all these topics (I grew up wanting to be a biologist and/or scientist of some kind < g >). I studied lots of biology, cell biology, chemistry, etc. If I hadn't gotten ill with Lyme Disease at such a young age, I'm sure I would have gone for a Ph.D. in one of the "life sciences." Unfortunately, all I managed to complete was approximately 135 units of college courses (all at the Jr. College level).
When I first sought treatment for depression, back around 1989, I was prescribed Prozac. From that day on, I learned everything I could about any new medication precsribed for my condition. In recent years, I found the following site, http://cp.gsm.com/ (Clinical Pharmacology Online) to be a good "starting point" for learning about a new med. I also spent lots of years reading nutritional-related books. I discovered which nutrients (ie: amino acids) were used in the synthesis of serotonin, dopamine, norepinephrine, etc.
After being on LOTS of different antidepressants (spanning the course of 10 years time) I had a lot of "data" to analyze. I made a list of meds that made me worse, the ones that sort of helped, and the ones that made me psychotic! LOL... from this information, I concluded that drugs acting as histamine H1 antagonists were absolute "no no's" (they resulted in extreme sedation and suicidal ideation). Also on my "no list" were drugs with anticholinergic properties and drugs acting as alpha1 and alpha2 adrenergic antagonists. SSRI type drugs, which had a high specificity to serotonin, caused anxiety, sleeplessness, obsessiveness, and borderline psychosis. The weaker SSRI’s only caused mild anxiety and a moderate degree of sleeplessness. I had fairly good results with Desipramine (a strong norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor) but it's weak anticholinergic effect was strong enough to counteract it's benefits. Some of the newer "SNRI's" (like reboxetine) might be worth looking into. Also, drugs that acted OPPOSITE of alpha1 or alpha2 adrenergic antagonists (ie: alpha1 adrenergic agonists) worked WONDERFULLY to combat the chronic fatigue I suffer from. Strangely, these type drugs are used in the treatment of narcolepsy. After doing a little research on narcolepsy, I often wonder if maybe I don't have THAT condition as well < G >.
It's strange how Prozac worked GREAT in the beginning, but after 2+ years of use, the therapeutic benefits "wore off?" And the newer SSRI's didn't work either? Seems all I experienced from the newer ones was a magnification of all the typical side-effects! This led me to conclude that maybe I depleted my serotonin stores.
My conclusion was based on deductive reasoning alone. I have no scientific basis for such a conclusion. But it seems to me that a drug that inhibits the reuptake of serotonin, would eventually tend to deplete a person's "stores" of serotonin, if that person's body wasn't synthesizing enough serotonin in the first place. L-Tryptophan happens to be the main ingredient used by the body to synthesize serotonin. Is it any wonder that it happens to be one of the eight essential amino acids? Also, is it any wonder that the FDA banned supplemental L-Tryptophan right before Prozac went on the market? (That's my paranoia talking now < g >).
I also read a lot of literature suggesting that the abuse of amphetamine-type drugs can deplete a person's dopamine stores. This seemed to apply to the chronic use of cocaine too. This led to my research on drugs that either helped protect dopaminergic neurons or helped in the synthesis of dopamine. From a nutritional point of view, I discovered that L-Lysine is needed by the body to synthesize dopamine, while drugs like L-Deprenyl, not only increase levels of dopamine, but have a neuroprotective effect on the striatal dopaminergic system.
In conclusion, I'm going to try a regimine of L-Tryptophan (in the evening) for 6 weeks straight, to promote sleep and to help in the synthesis of serotonin. Then I will add L-Lysine (in the mornings) to help combat the fatigue. If that doesn't work, I'll try an alpha1 adrenergic agonist (such as Adrafinil or Modafinil). Eventually, I might try using something like L-Deprenyl on an intermittent basis. If at all possible, I'd prefer to correct these "chemical imbalances" through the use of nutritional supplementation alone.
I feel like I'm really rambling on and on AGAIN! LOL!!! Thank you, once again, for the "welcome message." How long have you been struggling with depression? What helped you, made you worse, etc.?
Nice to "meet" you too!
Bob :)
> Hi there Bob!
> Such a nice way to introduce yourself. I am also a single mother so I feel for you. This is very interesting stuff. Can you explain about the serotonin stores? I thought that ADs were going to correct the imbalance, not make it worse. (I know I may be naive) My father was a long term cocaine user and he was taking some L- something for a long time which seemed to help so you may be on the right track. I do know about cocaine and that it damages our ability to make the brain chemical that gives that feeling. Personally, I never cared for it much, but that didn't stop me from doing a ton in the 80s. And you know, that is around the time I began to lose my ability to bounce back as quickly from things. very interesting. What else do you know about this? SOunds like you have been doing your research. Where does one get good info on these things?
> So many questions, sorry I have no answers. :-)Welcome to the Board Bob!
Posted by BobJ1961 on June 22, 2001, at 8:46:35
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble » BobJ1961, posted by Shar on June 17, 2001, at 11:57:15
Hi Shar!
Yeah...I've given all the meds a fair trial (in fact, I feel I stuck with them for TOO long--in hindsight, I don't know what good all that suffering did < g >). I have gotten the dysthymia diagnosis too. Never heard of it as the "u r always gonna be depressed" dx. YIKES! Maybe THAT'S why I'm still depressed? LOL
What antipsychotic are you taking now? (Just curious, if you don't mind me asking). I hate the fact that I'm "on my own" now...I just lost faith in the medical community. I concluded that I could do better treating myself! I'll probably lose my disability now, because I'm my own doctor essentially. But I'd rather lose my disability and feel good, than keep it and feel lousy for the rest of my life. I know I need to find a GOOD doctor (if they exist). But it will be a long time before I gain renewed faith in the medical community (I've just suffered for too long under the "care" of so-called professionals). I guess that's one reason I'm here too < g >.
Nice to "meet" you Shar! Good luck on your new "cocktail" < vbg >.
Bob :)
> Hey, Bob,
> Welcome. If you've been reading for a couple of months you pretty much know what to expect in terms of interactions here.
>
> I'll start by asking if you gave all those meds a fair trial period? And getting off one (more or less) before starting another?
>
> My dx is dysthymia, the "u r always gonna be depressed" dx. Recently my pdoc added an antipsychotic to my cocktail, and it really helped a whole lot. If you are interested in a drug, the search function will help you greatly. If not, you will still have company here; many people trying more natural or alternative approaches.
>
> good luck--
> Shar
Posted by BobJ1961 on June 23, 2001, at 23:17:35
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble, posted by rmshed on June 17, 2001, at 12:17:48
Hi Becky!
Thank you so much for replying to my message. Yes! Sure seems we can "relate" to one another (with all the meds we've been on < g >). It sounds like your dad and myself might have a few things in common as well. I too have resorted to alcohol abuse to help alleviate anxiety and give me a "temporary" break from my depression. Fortunately, I never got as bad as your dad...but I COULD have, very easily. Ironically, it's probably my Lyme Disease that prevented me from becoming a "classic" alcoholic. You see, I could never drink on a daily basis, and I always needed LOTS of recovery time in between "binges."
I'm lucky too in that I've never suffered from panic attacks (although I came close to experiencing what I'd call "borderline panic" due to terrible side effects of an antidepressant I took once. Ironically, that med was Effexor. LOL...funny how we all react differently to these things < g >. Doxepin had such a powerful sedative effect on me that it made me SUICIDAL too. I'm really sensitive to meds that make me feel weak or tired).
I have, however, suffered from what I'd call "social anxiety" for most all my life. It wasn't so bad that it showed though (in other words, I could "mix" well in a crowd, and hide it quite effectively). Also, like you, no one would ever know just how bad my depression really is. When I'm REALLY bad, I avoid people. In other words, I avoid people when I CANNOT hide my depression from them < g >. Maybe that explains why I've been avoiding more social situations in recent years (the depression got too bad to "hide").
I seem to have this thing about me where I NEED to at least APPEAR happy, considerate, kind, enthusiastic, intelligent, and supportive when I'm in a public place. I feel I owe that to the people around me. But those closest to me, see all the "ugliness" that I hide from the public. Kind of ironic, huh? It should probably be the other way around < g >.
I can hardly believe you've been dealing with these problems since age 14!!! OMG!!! I didn't begin experiencing clinical depression until I was 27 or 28 years old, and events in my life at that time probably triggered it. In fact, going on antidepressants for the first time in my life (at that time) was probably a bad thing, because I took them to treat a "situational" depression. Years later, it turned into a bona fide clinical depression (maybe BECAUSE I messed up my mind/body with antidepressants? I don't like contemplating that possibility < g >).
What part of the country do you live in, if you don't mind me asking? I live in Northern California. Feel free to e-mail me too, if you'd like! Thanks again for writing, and nice "meeting" you.
Sincerely, Bob :)
> I read your post and just wanted to say that I agree with your thoughts. I too have many other medical problems that I seem to be able to cope with when my medications work for my depression. I have been on tranzene, doxepin, zoloft, celeza, paxil, prozac, remeron, serezone (sp)lithium, wellbutrin---(never again), I have added cytomel to augment prozac-it didn't help. I am now adding effexor xr to my drug regiman of prozac and doxepin. In addition to xanax to control my panic attacks and anxiety. I have bounced from one drug to another also. I recently tried Kava Kava root for anxiety, it gave me horrible night mares and I decided I would stop medicating myself. I think that I might be immune to some of the drugs that I have taken for 10+ years. I am not ready to throw in the towel yet. I come from a family where my mother and father both have suffered from bouts of mental illness. My father was so depressed in 1994 that he became a shut in and began drinking so that he could relax, he drank so much beer that he depleted his sodium levels and had a major seizure, which left him in a coma and on life support. He had developed an ulcer from all of the worrying about his depression and the beer and alcohol probably caused the ulcer. That ulcer perforated and he had to undergo emergency surgery. He had to have 1/3 of his stomach removed and after surgery developed pneumonia and coughed his stitches open and had to had surgery again. He survived, but was placed in a mental hospital after his physical illness was taken care of. He didn't respond to traditional medication for depression and was given 13 shock treatments. Today, my father is a well man. The ECT was just what he needed. I have come to the conclusion, that when the time comes and I no longer respond to my medication that I may have to undergo ECT as well. I have suffered from depression and panic disorder and anxiety since I was 14, that was the year I tried my first suicide attempt. I fight what seems to be a never ending battle with my medication and illness. I have decided to do whatever is necessary to try and see if there is something to help. I know that there is no miracle cure in a pill, but I truly feel that when our brain chemicals do not function properly, then we lose control. I am glad that you posted. I really related to your situation. I am a 41 year old divorced female, I have no children, I didn't want any, I was afraid that they would have my genes. I have surfed the net for a website for depressed people and this is the best site so far.
>
> I am able to function on a daily basis and you would never know if you met me that I have these problems, I have learned to hide them. It has been terrible to act happy at times when I am not. I guess life goes on.
>
> If you ever need to vent, please feel free to email me.
>
> Becky
Posted by Zo on June 24, 2001, at 16:45:18
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble » rmshed, posted by BobJ1961 on June 23, 2001, at 23:17:35
>In fact, going on antidepressants for the first time in my life (at that time) was probably a bad thing, because I took them to treat a "situational" depression.
I'm not so sure that was a bad idea. The way I understand it, and *feel* it, "situational" depression takes the same toll on the dopaminergic and other resources my brain doesn't manufacture very well as does a chemical disruption from within -- and often, it is hard and even pointless to try and distinguish them. I do know if I am not medicated for overwhelming situations, I cannot act on my own behalf, I simply haven't the mental/emotional resilience. And that resiliance is chemical by nature.
>Years later, it turned into a bona fide clinical depression (maybe BECAUSE I messed up my mind/body with antidepressants? I don't like contemplating that possibility < g >).
I don't *think* so. .. ! < g >
>I too have many other medical problems that I seem to be able to cope with when my medications work for my depression.Me too. Back to that resilence factor.
> I am able to function on a daily basis and you would never know if you met me that I have these problems, I have learned to hide them. It has been terrible to act happy at times when I am not. I guess life goes on.
Sorry, I seem to be answering you both at once. Choosing to hide one's depression and other health problems is a tricky one. I do it in part so as to enjoy what does come my way, to participate in shreds of "normal" life, in part because these things are hard for others to deal with, in part because I don't want to go through the pain of seeing others turn away. . .and in part because I lack the foundation of trust that others would care, which I gingerly work to overcome.
Best to you both,
Zo
Posted by BobJ1961 on June 25, 2001, at 3:16:29
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble, posted by Zo on June 24, 2001, at 16:45:18
Hi Zo,
Thank you for your feedback! I feel better now about my past use of antidepressants. After giving it a lot of thought (ie: "situational" depression versus "clinical" depression) I've come to the conclusion that it would be nearly impossible to distinguish between the two. What complicates matters even more is realizing that you can always FIND something to be depressed about < g >.
Personally speaking, I feel a little "better" knowing my depression is the result of some problem worthy of depression! LOL ... But those days where things SEEM to be going well, but I'm very depressed nonetheless, really bother me in particular.
In the end, as far as your brain is concerned, I now tend to think the two kinds of depression are one and the same. In other words, maybe what makes you depressed is irrelevant, because whatever it was that caused it had the same "net effect" on your brain chemistry. Maybe too, where the abnormality lies (which ALL depressed people have in common) is that we lack the ability to reverse the process in a reasonable period of time?
Sounds like I hide my depression for the reasons you mentioned too. I've certainly noticed over the years, that people who have not experienced depression really get uncomfortable when you bring up your illness. Ironically, I can remember being that way myself (in my early 20's--I just couldn't understand depression, and people who had it made me uncomfortable). But then there are SOME people who claim to know what depression is like, but when you talk about it more in depth with them, it turns out that it was a very brief (and not very severe) "case." And their "cure" was something simple, like getting involved in more social activities, and/or changing their diet or getting more regular exercise. While I agree that those activities can benefit ANYONE (even someone with severe depression) they're not going to improve the mood much of someone with severe depression. I don't think someone with severe depression is even capable of doing those activities (I know I'm not).
Heck, even *I* have a hard time understanding my depression when I'm not experiencing it < g >. So I guess I shouldn't be so hard on "normal" people for not understanding it.
Thanks for listening to MY "psycho babble" some more < vbg >. Nice to "meet" you too!
Sincerely, Bob :)
> >In fact, going on antidepressants for the first time in my life (at that time) was probably a bad thing, because I took them to treat a "situational" depression.
>
> I'm not so sure that was a bad idea. The way I understand it, and *feel* it, "situational" depression takes the same toll on the dopaminergic and other resources my brain doesn't manufacture very well as does a chemical disruption from within -- and often, it is hard and even pointless to try and distinguish them. I do know if I am not medicated for overwhelming situations, I cannot act on my own behalf, I simply haven't the mental/emotional resilience. And that resiliance is chemical by nature.
>
> >Years later, it turned into a bona fide clinical depression (maybe BECAUSE I messed up my mind/body with antidepressants? I don't like contemplating that possibility < g >).
>
> I don't *think* so. .. ! < g >
>
> >I too have many other medical problems that I seem to be able to cope with when my medications work for my depression.
>
> Me too. Back to that resilence factor.
>
> > I am able to function on a daily basis and you would never know if you met me that I have these problems, I have learned to hide them. It has been terrible to act happy at times when I am not. I guess life goes on.
>
> Sorry, I seem to be answering you both at once. Choosing to hide one's depression and other health problems is a tricky one. I do it in part so as to enjoy what does come my way, to participate in shreds of "normal" life, in part because these things are hard for others to deal with, in part because I don't want to go through the pain of seeing others turn away. . .and in part because I lack the foundation of trust that others would care, which I gingerly work to overcome.
>
> Best to you both,
> Zo
Posted by BobJ1961 on June 25, 2001, at 3:20:42
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble, posted by Victoria on June 17, 2001, at 10:57:15
Hi Victoria,
It's Bob again < g >. I'm still learning how to use this message board, and I realized I didn't include your name in my LONG reply to you, so that's the purpose of this message...to perhaps "alert" you to my other reply, not that you needed to be alerted or that you even need to reply to it...LOL...but I think you know what I mean < g >.
Bob :)
> Hi there Bob!
> Such a nice way to introduce yourself. I am also a single mother so I feel for you. This is very interesting stuff. Can you explain about the serotonin stores? I thought that ADs were going to correct the imbalance, not make it worse. (I know I may be naive) My father was a long term cocaine user and he was taking some L- something for a long time which seemed to help so you may be on the right track. I do know about cocaine and that it damages our ability to make the brain chemical that gives that feeling. Personally, I never cared for it much, but that didn't stop me from doing a ton in the 80s. And you know, that is around the time I began to lose my ability to bounce back as quickly from things. very interesting. What else do you know about this? SOunds like you have been doing your research. Where does one get good info on these things?
> So many questions, sorry I have no answers. :-)Welcome to the Board Bob!
Posted by BobJ1961 on June 25, 2001, at 3:23:54
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble » BobJ1961, posted by Shar on June 17, 2001, at 11:57:15
Hi Shar,
It's Bob again < g >. I didn't include your name in my other reply to you, so I thought I'd alert you to that message with this one. I'm still getting used to using this board, and it's layout. Thanks!
Bob :)
> Hey, Bob,
> Welcome. If you've been reading for a couple of months you pretty much know what to expect in terms of interactions here.
>
> I'll start by asking if you gave all those meds a fair trial period? And getting off one (more or less) before starting another?
>
> My dx is dysthymia, the "u r always gonna be depressed" dx. Recently my pdoc added an antipsychotic to my cocktail, and it really helped a whole lot. If you are interested in a drug, the search function will help you greatly. If not, you will still have company here; many people trying more natural or alternative approaches.
>
> good luck--
> Shar
>
>
>
> > Hello everyone!
> >
> > I've been reading messages on this site for a month or so now. I feel as though I've gotten to know a lot of you, even though you don't know me < g >.
> >
> > Anyway, I came here because I suffer from severe depression. It's mostly treatment resistant too, and I've had it for 10 years now. I'm now 39 years old, and I can honestly say that I have not lived during my 30's! I guess that means that I've lost 25% of my life so far?
> >
> > In the beginning, I had excellent results with Prozac (the benefits lasted about 2 years). After that point, it has been a neverending struggle to find SOMETHING that worked as well. Ironically, Prozac was the first drug I tried, and the LAST drug that worked! LOL
> >
> > I've tried all the tricyclics, and none of those helped. In fact, most of them made me 10x worse (suicidal!) The newer SSRI's either caused extreme anxiety, sleeplessness, or psychosis. Wellbutrin didn't work either. I have not tried any of the MAOI's.
> >
> > I stopped seeing my psychiatrist about 9 months ago. All he seemed to be doing was trying new things on me at random. I concluded that I could do better on my own--I started looking at what drugs helped me in the past, and which ones harmed me. I came to some interesting conclusions.
> >
> > I even got desperate enough to try stuff that was illegal (like GHB!) GHB has worked wonderfully, but it's too short acting. I've been using it for about 10 weeks now, and I can already tell that I'm developing a problem with it. The "benefits" are lasting for shorter periods of time, while the side-effects are growing more severe and longer lasting (typical signs of drug addiction!)
> >
> > My next step is to wean myself off the GHB and then try L-Tryptophan (in the evenings). My theory is that maybe I depleted my serotonin "stores" through long-term use of SSRI's (namely Prozac). And since L-Tryptophan is a serotonin precursor, maybe it will help to replenish those serotonin stores?
> >
> > I'd also like to try L-Deprenyl (because it has neural regenerative and/or protective effects on the striatal dopaminergic system). I feel this stuff might benefit me too, because I abused cocaine/crack in the early 90's. Perhaps I did some damage to my dopaminergic system?
> >
> > I've also been reading the message threads on the use of opioids to treat treatment-resistant depression. I suffer from chronic pain too, so perhaps there's something worth looking into there as well?
> >
> > I also have Lyme Disease (had all the classic symptoms between the ages of 10 and 14 years of age). It went untreated for about 27 years. I had pretty good results with aggressive antibiotic therapy (after 12 months of continuous treatment) but I had to stop due to side-effects (problems with yeast infection). Since discontinuing the abx, all my symptoms have returned.
> >
> > I fear that I've had Lyme Disease for too long now, and that it too might be "treatment resistant." As you can see, my medical history is complicated.
> >
> > I'm a single father of two young children (ages 7 and 11) so I'm DESPERATELY trying to find something to help my depression. When my depression is under control, all my other medical problems become more "tolerable" (and I can then engage in activities that are healthy, like eating right and getting regular exercise).
> >
> > Anyway, nice to finally "meet" you all! I suspect I'll be hanging around here for a long time to come < g >.
> >
> > Sincerely, Bob :)
Posted by Victoria on July 9, 2001, at 11:05:08
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble, posted by BobJ1961 on June 22, 2001, at 8:46:35
Hey Bob!
This is my first time back in awhile. I am traveling and studying in France.
My depression has been increasing with the years I think and for the last two or so has been what would be termed mild to moderate. I tried exercise, nutrition, chinese medicine and homeopathy and the like before giving in to the meds. I started with Wellbutrin and that was a boost, especially happy about some weight loss. Now adding the Zoloft. THis last weekend I left without my meds and found out that France does not yet have WB so now I am off that and am going to see how it goes. So far so good. But perhaps traveling helps too. :-) How do you get L-Tryptophan? I am going to see my father in a couple weeks and will try to ask him what it was he was using. It was something a neurologist had suggested I believe. Until next time!
Posted by Elizabeth on July 11, 2001, at 1:04:48
In reply to New to Psycho-Babble, posted by BobJ1961 on June 17, 2001, at 7:32:48
> Hello everyone!
Welcome. It's a pleasure to meet you.
> I've been reading messages on this site for a month or so now. I feel as though I've gotten to know a lot of you, even though you don't know me < g >.
You're pretty sneaky, aren't you? < g >
> Anyway, I came here because I suffer from severe depression. It's mostly treatment resistant too, and I've had it for 10 years now. I'm now 39 years old, and I can honestly say that I have not lived during my 30's! I guess that means that I've lost 25% of my life so far?
10 years (close to 11, really) since "official" diagnosis for me too, but I'm only 25. It's gotten a lot worse in the last few years, and I feelt like I've missed out on the best years of my life (cliche though that may be).
Of course, it's not strictly chronic -- it comes and goes, in what are known as "major depressive episodes," but the frequency of these episodes (which has incereased with time) has made it very difficult for me to function. Still, I'm managing as best I can.
> In the beginning, I had excellent results with Prozac (the benefits lasted about 2 years).
Prozac seemed to work for me the first time I took it, but it didn't to much later on. I have trouble deciding whether the original response was mere coincidence or whether the Prozac failed to work later in life for whatever reason.
After that point, it has been a neverending struggle to find SOMETHING that worked as well. Ironically, Prozac was the first drug I tried, and the LAST drug that worked! LOL
> I've tried all the tricyclics, and none of those helped.
*All*? In the USA, that's ten drugs. Can you list the ones you've tried? A lot of them are seldom used, and it doesn't really make sense to keep trying one after the other when they clearly don't work.
> In fact, most of them made me 10x worse (suicidal!)
This has been known to happen in a subgroup of depressives, particularly those with so-called "atypical depression" (a misnomer).
> The newer SSRI's either caused extreme anxiety, sleeplessness, or psychosis.
Psychosis defined how? Many times, the SSRIs and (to a lesser extent) the TCAs can cause increased anxiety at first (this is particularly true for people who have panic disorder).
> Wellbutrin didn't work either.
I'd expect this one
A couple other non-SSRI newer drugs that you may not have tried are Serzone and Effexor. Serzone is particularly nice for anxiety.
> I have not tried any of the MAOI's.
I recommend them, especially if you do have atypical depression and/or panic disorder. They often work where every other AD has failed. Another possibility is to reconsider your diagnosis.
> I even got desperate enough to try stuff that was illegal (like GHB!)
Hey, it was legal a year ago or so! Anyway, the anti-GHB laws (like so many US drug laws) are just bizarre. GHB is a substance that occurs in mammalian bodies. To make it illegal would mean
that we're all guilty of possession!I don't recommend trying to use GHB for depression. Although some people have used it in the long term (taken at bedtime) for sleep disorders without needing to increase the dose, tolerance is very common.
Tryptophan might be a better choice, although it's a pretty weak AD. IMO, it's best used in conjunction with other ADs. Also, it can help to take a second drug to prevent the tryptophan from being metabolised before reaching the CNS.
> I'd also like to try L-Deprenyl (because it has neural regenerative and/or protective effects on the striatal dopaminergic system). I feel this stuff might benefit me too, because I abused cocaine/crack in the early 90's. Perhaps I did some damage to my dopaminergic system?
I wasn't impressed by selegiline (the American name for medical deprenyl), although dopaminergic drugs have helped me somewhat. It caused a lot of activation and worsened my sleep and appetite (which were already diminished). A more traditional MAOI (or perhaps the Parkinson's drug pramipexole/Mirapex) might be more beneficial to you. (There used to be a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, Merital (nomifensine), marketed as an AD, but it was taken off the market for dubious reasons.
> I've also been reading the message threads on the use of opioids to treat treatment-resistant depression. I suffer from chronic pain too, so perhaps there's something worth looking into there as well?
If you like, I can talk to you about that. Tramadol and buprenorphine seem to have less abuse potential than other opioids, but they are very helpful for many people with depression. Given your background of substance abuse, I'd approach typical (full agonist) opioids (morphine, oxycodone, fentanyl, etc.) with extreme caution.
> I also have Lyme Disease (had all the classic symptoms between the ages of 10 and 14 years of age).
That's no good. You need to make sure that you are getting regular treatment for the Lyme disease (like, go back on those antibiotics, and start seeing someone regularly about the Lyme disease; also, consider getting tested for neurological damage and other possible sequelae of long-term untreated Lyme disease).
> When my depression is under control, all my other medical problems become more "tolerable" (and I can then engage in activities that are healthy, like eating right and getting regular exercise).
Yes, that's how it often works.
-elizabeth
Posted by BobJ1961 on July 22, 2001, at 20:22:59
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble BoBJI961, posted by Victoria on July 9, 2001, at 11:05:08
Hi Victoria!
I hope you're having a FANTASTIC vacation! I'd have to say, "Yes! I doubt you're thinking too much about depression right now with all that you're doing" < vbg >.
Thanks, in advance, for checking on what it is that's helping your father. I'm going to make a guess (just for grins) that maybe it's Neurontin?
Regarding the L-Tryptophan, I'd rather not disclose publicly where I got the stuff, due to the quasi-illegal nature of such a procurement. Suffice it to say that it was legal for me to purchase it, but not legal for me to consume it! LOL. If you send me an e-mail address, I'll tell you where I bought it.
TTYL,
Bob :)
> Hey Bob!
> This is my first time back in awhile. I am traveling and studying in France.
> My depression has been increasing with the years I think and for the last two or so has been what would be termed mild to moderate. I tried exercise, nutrition, chinese medicine and homeopathy and the like before giving in to the meds. I started with Wellbutrin and that was a boost, especially happy about some weight loss. Now adding the Zoloft. THis last weekend I left without my meds and found out that France does not yet have WB so now I am off that and am going to see how it goes. So far so good. But perhaps traveling helps too. :-) How do you get L-Tryptophan? I am going to see my father in a couple weeks and will try to ask him what it was he was using. It was something a neurologist had suggested I believe. Until next time!
Posted by BobJ1961 on July 22, 2001, at 21:24:03
In reply to Re: New to Psycho-Babble » BobJ1961, posted by Elizabeth on July 11, 2001, at 1:04:48
Hi Elizabeth!
Sorry it took me so long to acknowledge your reply. And THANK YOU so much for all the good information and feedback.
When you asked if I really tried ALL the tricyclics, I must confess "No, I have not," but I've tried the vast majority. Let me think... I've been on Nortriptyline, Imipramine, Desipramine, Doxepin, Clomipramine, and Trazodone. The only one I sort of tolerated was Desipramine. The rest of them nearly KILLED me (caused extreme sedation and weakness--couldn't get out of bed for 20+ hours, even on a low dose! LOL)
Serzone worked fairly good for a while, but then it began causing nausea and some other unpleasant side effects. I had a terrible experience with Effexor (caused extreme anxiety, sleeplessness, and borderline panic). I actually felt "awake and restless" while asleep on the stuff! I felt more calm after awakening. It was a weird experience. Paxil made me obsessive and really weird too. (I referred to these experiences, loosely, as psychotic, but technically, I guess they were not < g >). Paxil too made the depression MUCH worse--it took me a few days just to recover from a single dose.
Wellbutrin did little but make me feel "stoned" and spacey. Same goes for Zoloft.
I had pretty good results with Celexa (for approximately 4 months) but then I began developing sleep problems (insomnia). That one might be worth going back on at a lower dose? (Although I think I was taking just one tablet a day as it was, and the antidepressant effects were mild at best).
I guess it might be time to carefully consider one of the MAOI's (problem is, my blood-pressure is a little on the high side, and those dietary restrictions scare me).
I agree with you that GHB isn't a good treatment for depression. For one thing, the half-life of the stuff is way too short, so you need frequent "doses" of the stuff. Of course, that just leads to problems down the road < g >. I'm happy to say that I'm no longer taking that stuff, and it wasn't difficult to give up either.
While I have past substance abuse issues, I don't think that I did it to "get high" but rather to self medicate. When my depressive symptoms are under control, I have little, if any, desire to abuse substances.
I don't think I have an unusual (addictive) affinity to pain medication either, so that might be something for me to look into. Generally speaking, I don't like medications that sedate me too much. So, in my opinion, I feel I'm unlikely to develop an addiction to pain meds. But who knows? (Thanks for the caution!)
I tried Buprenorphine (the sublingual variety) and the stuff did absolutely nothing. Maybe it was the supplier? (I purchased it from an overseas pharmaceutical company--maybe I didn't get the "real" thing?) In my experiences, a couple of Vicodin were much more effective than the Buprenorphine I tried.
Pain, for me, is certainly a problem that I have yet to manage properly. Perhaps if the pain was under control, I'd be more "mobile," get more accomplished, feel better about myself, etc., etc.
I definately need to go back to my "Lyme Doc" and get back on antibiotics. Ironically, antibiotics seemed to treat the psychiatric manifestations of my illness quite well, while "trashing" my body! LOL. So, it was like trading one set of problems for another < g >. I had to stay on the abx for an entire year before noticing any improvements, which is a real pain (costly too!)
I'm so sorry to hear you've been dealing with this nasty illness at YOUR age! You're right! You sort of "lost" the best years of your life. At least those were the best years for me (well, they were the best of times AND the worst of times! LOL)
Thanks again for your thoughtful reply!
Sincerely, Bob :)
> > Hello everyone!
>
> Welcome. It's a pleasure to meet you.
>
> > I've been reading messages on this site for a month or so now. I feel as though I've gotten to know a lot of you, even though you don't know me < g >.
>
> You're pretty sneaky, aren't you? < g >
>
> > Anyway, I came here because I suffer from severe depression. It's mostly treatment resistant too, and I've had it for 10 years now. I'm now 39 years old, and I can honestly say that I have not lived during my 30's! I guess that means that I've lost 25% of my life so far?
>
> 10 years (close to 11, really) since "official" diagnosis for me too, but I'm only 25. It's gotten a lot worse in the last few years, and I feelt like I've missed out on the best years of my life (cliche though that may be).
>
> Of course, it's not strictly chronic -- it comes and goes, in what are known as "major depressive episodes," but the frequency of these episodes (which has incereased with time) has made it very difficult for me to function. Still, I'm managing as best I can.
>
> > In the beginning, I had excellent results with Prozac (the benefits lasted about 2 years).
>
> Prozac seemed to work for me the first time I took it, but it didn't to much later on. I have trouble deciding whether the original response was mere coincidence or whether the Prozac failed to work later in life for whatever reason.
>
> After that point, it has been a neverending struggle to find SOMETHING that worked as well. Ironically, Prozac was the first drug I tried, and the LAST drug that worked! LOL
>
> > I've tried all the tricyclics, and none of those helped.
>
> *All*? In the USA, that's ten drugs. Can you list the ones you've tried? A lot of them are seldom used, and it doesn't really make sense to keep trying one after the other when they clearly don't work.
>
> > In fact, most of them made me 10x worse (suicidal!)
>
> This has been known to happen in a subgroup of depressives, particularly those with so-called "atypical depression" (a misnomer).
>
> > The newer SSRI's either caused extreme anxiety, sleeplessness, or psychosis.
>
> Psychosis defined how? Many times, the SSRIs and (to a lesser extent) the TCAs can cause increased anxiety at first (this is particularly true for people who have panic disorder).
>
> > Wellbutrin didn't work either.
>
> I'd expect this one
>
> A couple other non-SSRI newer drugs that you may not have tried are Serzone and Effexor. Serzone is particularly nice for anxiety.
>
> > I have not tried any of the MAOI's.
>
> I recommend them, especially if you do have atypical depression and/or panic disorder. They often work where every other AD has failed. Another possibility is to reconsider your diagnosis.
>
> > I even got desperate enough to try stuff that was illegal (like GHB!)
>
> Hey, it was legal a year ago or so! Anyway, the anti-GHB laws (like so many US drug laws) are just bizarre. GHB is a substance that occurs in mammalian bodies. To make it illegal would mean
> that we're all guilty of possession!
>
> I don't recommend trying to use GHB for depression. Although some people have used it in the long term (taken at bedtime) for sleep disorders without needing to increase the dose, tolerance is very common.
>
> Tryptophan might be a better choice, although it's a pretty weak AD. IMO, it's best used in conjunction with other ADs. Also, it can help to take a second drug to prevent the tryptophan from being metabolised before reaching the CNS.
>
> > I'd also like to try L-Deprenyl (because it has neural regenerative and/or protective effects on the striatal dopaminergic system). I feel this stuff might benefit me too, because I abused cocaine/crack in the early 90's. Perhaps I did some damage to my dopaminergic system?
>
> I wasn't impressed by selegiline (the American name for medical deprenyl), although dopaminergic drugs have helped me somewhat. It caused a lot of activation and worsened my sleep and appetite (which were already diminished). A more traditional MAOI (or perhaps the Parkinson's drug pramipexole/Mirapex) might be more beneficial to you. (There used to be a dopamine reuptake inhibitor, Merital (nomifensine), marketed as an AD, but it was taken off the market for dubious reasons.
>
> > I've also been reading the message threads on the use of opioids to treat treatment-resistant depression. I suffer from chronic pain too, so perhaps there's something worth looking into there as well?
>
> If you like, I can talk to you about that. Tramadol and buprenorphine seem to have less abuse potential than other opioids, but they are very helpful for many people with depression. Given your background of substance abuse, I'd approach typical (full agonist) opioids (morphine, oxycodone, fentanyl, etc.) with extreme caution.
>
> > I also have Lyme Disease (had all the classic symptoms between the ages of 10 and 14 years of age).
>
> That's no good. You need to make sure that you are getting regular treatment for the Lyme disease (like, go back on those antibiotics, and start seeing someone regularly about the Lyme disease; also, consider getting tested for neurological damage and other possible sequelae of long-term untreated Lyme disease).
>
> > When my depression is under control, all my other medical problems become more "tolerable" (and I can then engage in activities that are healthy, like eating right and getting regular exercise).
>
> Yes, that's how it often works.
>
> -elizabeth
This is the end of the thread.
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