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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by tina on July 3, 2000, at 18:14:39
Hey all: I've noticed that now and then there is a cutting thread thrown in and I'd like to contribute to that. I have cutting episodes but I never use knives or sharp stuff. I always use blunt but jagged objects to scrape layer by layer off my body. I think I need to know just how much I can take. I live a small life and I can't handle a lot of the "normal" everyday stresses but somewhere deep inside myself I know that I can and instead of determination and perseverance, I turn to the scraping to prove to myself that I "can take it." The thoughts that go through my mind aren't racing or psychotic. They are rational and logical. I tell myself "a little more, you know you can take it, just a little more, you are stronger than this, push harder, cut deeper." I think it's a metaphor for my life. If I don't think I can handle the challenges of life, I challenge myself to see if I can handle challenges to the body. It's an odd feeling to be able to finally explain why I do this. I don't see it stopping unless i can somehow learn to handle the challenges to my mind(life's ups and downs)
Maybe you can learn something from this jupiter. i don't know why you do what you do but finding the real reason makes all the difference.
Be well
Best wishes
Tina
Posted by Noa on July 3, 2000, at 18:41:51
In reply to Cutting episodes, posted by tina on July 3, 2000, at 18:14:39
One difference that comes to mind between coping with cutting/scraping yourself and coping with what life throws your way, is the issue of predictability and control.
Have you ever read Isabel Allende? In one of her books (one of the Eva Luna books, or House of the Spirits, I am not sure which), the character, as a little girl, describes how she learns from an older brother, to inflict pain on herself. The brother had studied under some easter ascetic sect while traveling in the east, and she learns from him to test her strength by enduring more and more painful things. I will have to find the passage and see how she describes it.
Have you read Cutting, by Levenkron?
Posted by tina on July 3, 2000, at 21:52:47
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes, posted by Noa on July 3, 2000, at 18:41:51
Noa: I've read some books on cutting and there was a community show on tv about it a while back but I seem to be atypical. I don't go raging, I don't lose control, in fact it's the only time I really feel IN control. The books I've read just don't seem to pertain to my kind of scraping. I haven't seen any eastern cultist publications so i had no idea this was a practiced activity in parts of the world. Learn something new everyday. I only go so far as to grind a bit of skin off. I don't really do the mutilation stuff. It started way back in highschool. I used to try to prove to my friends that I had a strength that they lacked-- a high pain threshold- and it has stuck with me as a coping mechanism ever since. If you do find those passages you mentioned, I'd love to read them so get back to me here or LOTL. Love you for caring so much. Have a great 4th. Hugs--Tina
> One difference that comes to mind between coping with cutting/scraping yourself and coping with what life throws your way, is the issue of predictability and control.
>
> Have you ever read Isabel Allende? In one of her books (one of the Eva Luna books, or House of the Spirits, I am not sure which), the character, as a little girl, describes how she learns from an older brother, to inflict pain on herself. The brother had studied under some easter ascetic sect while traveling in the east, and she learns from him to test her strength by enduring more and more painful things. I will have to find the passage and see how she describes it.
>
> Have you read Cutting, by Levenkron?
Posted by Kerry on July 4, 2000, at 2:39:31
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes, posted by tina on July 3, 2000, at 21:52:47
> I don't go raging, I don't lose control, in fact it's the only time I really feel IN control.
Tina--from what I understand about cutting, this is exactly it--the cutting behavior demonstrates control. It's perhaps the one thing in your life you feel you can dictate/manipulate (not in the negative sense--just in the sense that we want to be able to control what's happening in our lives). I know that might oversimply your exact situation, but this is just what I've read and observed based on my own experience.
I think you've initiated (or re-started) an important conversation.
Posted by Greg on July 4, 2000, at 11:20:24
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes, posted by Kerry on July 4, 2000, at 2:39:31
Gang,
I've read many articles on cutting, many views, many different opinions. The one real constant seems to be the feeling that the person who cuts feels like they are punishing themselves for feelings or behaviors towards others that they feel are inappropriate. It seems to be rarely directed toward how they treat themselves. God, I hope that made some sense...
Am I way off base here? I'm sure that each person's reasons differ in their own situation. Please educate me? I have a dear friend going thru this right now and I desperately want to understand, even if I can't help.
Greg
> > I don't go raging, I don't lose control, in fact it's the only time I really feel IN control.
>
> Tina--from what I understand about cutting, this is exactly it--the cutting behavior demonstrates control. It's perhaps the one thing in your life you feel you can dictate/manipulate (not in the negative sense--just in the sense that we want to be able to control what's happening in our lives). I know that might oversimply your exact situation, but this is just what I've read and observed based on my own experience.
>
> I think you've initiated (or re-started) an important conversation.
Posted by NikkiT on July 4, 2000, at 13:33:12
In reply to Cutting episodes, posted by tina on July 3, 2000, at 18:14:39
I haven't used sharp objects as such either.. I tend to use needles or pins, and scratch away with them, never doing a real cut at first, I jyst keep working at them till they bleed.
THe most recent was burning with a ciggarette...BUT, My husband is great with me... I know this sounds stupid, but he does "cut checks" to see if I have been doing it, and this always makes me think twice, and generally stops me doing anything.
Just adding my bit!! NBot much use I know.. :o)
N xx
Posted by NikkiT on July 4, 2000, at 13:39:54
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes-All, posted by Greg on July 4, 2000, at 11:20:24
Issabelle Alende.. I find her books truly magical and beautiful, she has to be one of my favourite authors... Noa is irght about the cutting in House of spirits... suddenly means more to me than before!!!
Anyway, Tina, if yiu enjoy reading, do read her books.. My favourites are House of Spirits, and Eva Luna.
If you want to read an incredibly moving book, (but not distressing in anyway), she wrote a boolk whiule her daughter was in a coma, called Paula (her daughters name). A really great book...Off topic.. but being a total book worm, I love finding great new books, and these are three if my best finds ever!!!
N xx
Posted by shar on July 4, 2000, at 15:01:50
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes-All, posted by Greg on July 4, 2000, at 11:20:24
Greg,
I had always heard that cutting and eating disorders shared one constant: they were often about one's need to feel in control of Something in one's life.
If I read Tina's post correctly, she was making that connection as well.
Earlier in my life I would damage myself (I'm amazed at how much shame I feel when I say that!) and it always had a "They can't do that to me" feel about it. It was definitely rage related, as anger expressed in any form was forbidden in my household.
I think sometimes a lack of respecting boundaries can bring on feelings that lead to hurting oneself. IE, you feel so much under the microscope, and are so watched, and so criticized, there is at least one thing you can do that is your very own; your own voice in your own head thinking it, and your own hand doing it.
For your friend, therapy is probably the best route. If it were my friend, and therapy was out, I would want to point out every time I saw them make a decision on their own and every time they exerted their own will and every time they either acknowledged the existence of a boundary or enforced a boundary (can't tell her what to do). I would want her to see all the times she was in control in the little decisions she made, and that -- all together -- showed how much control she had.
I would not tell her what to do because that's what she MAY have been living with.
Oh, well. Who knows? For me, things were so convoluted for years that it took a lot of therapy and more recently meds to get to a better place.
Best of luck to you. Your friend is lucky to be so cared for.
Shar
Posted by shellie on July 4, 2000, at 20:24:01
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes-All » Greg, posted by shar on July 4, 2000, at 15:01:50
For me cutting feels different (although I've stopped now, I hope). I've done it when I feel really hurt, scared, and hopeless. It's sort of my way of saying "I give up, I am not normal, and I want to stop trying." Sometimes I really get tired of having to try so hard, particularly in relationships, which are so hard and sometimes painful for me. But it seems that I never can stop trying, so maybe somehow the cutting is related to control, in that I cause my own pain, rather than being hit by something in the world.
When I cut though, I lose control. I can't always stop, and have had to go to the er. (never keep me though, luckily). So that is the main reason I have been able to stop. The last time, I felt depressed after, instead of relieved. So I keep trying to remember that.
I'm not really sure how different this is from others; I've gotten myself confused. shellie
Posted by tina on July 4, 2000, at 21:57:33
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes-All, posted by shellie on July 4, 2000, at 20:24:01
"I think sometimes a lack of respecting boundaries can bring on feelings that lead to hurting oneself. IE, you feel so much under the microscope, and are so watched, and so criticized, there is at least one thing you can do that is your very own; your own voice in your own head thinking it, and your own hand doing it."
Shar: this statement rings very true with me as does your statement about anger in any form being forbidden in your home as a child. It was the same for me. Any negative emotion was frowned on and I was told over and over that pretty,smiling little girls get all the attention. Nobody wants to play with an angry cry-baby. Perhaps Greg is right when he says that it is a way of punishing myself in that I am so used to having to fake the happy that when the depression or anxiety comes to the surface as a frustrated strike at others, I feel it is my duty to punish myself for the outburst if no one else will. Oh well, didn't mean to start so much broohaha. just wanted to voice and opinion. My cutting isn't really dangerous, at least, to me it isn't. It makes me feel better and I figure whatever makes you feel better is a good thing. If it ain't broke don't fix it ya know? I'm not really seeking help for this because I do enjoy it so much. There are plenty of other things much more important that I need help with. I don't even tell my doc that I do this. Jeez, she would really try to force me into therapy real quick. Right now I just see a family doc and she gives me what I ask for and I leave. If she knew I hacked at myself with everything from garden shears to broken tree twigs, she'd think I was starkers. Ah well. What can you do. I like to cut. It brings me some peace so I won't stop, not for a while at least. Thanks for the concern though. Love you for it, you too Greg. Many hugs--Tina
> For me cutting feels different (although I've stopped now, I hope). I've done it when I feel really hurt, scared, and hopeless. It's sort of my way of saying "I give up, I am not normal, and I want to stop trying." Sometimes I really get tired of having to try so hard, particularly in relationships, which are so hard and sometimes painful for me. But it seems that I never can stop trying, so maybe somehow the cutting is related to control, in that I cause my own pain, rather than being hit by something in the world.
>
> When I cut though, I lose control. I can't always stop, and have had to go to the er. (never keep me though, luckily). So that is the main reason I have been able to stop. The last time, I felt depressed after, instead of relieved. So I keep trying to remember that.
>
> I'm not really sure how different this is from others; I've gotten myself confused. shellie
Posted by noa on July 5, 2000, at 6:28:40
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes-Shar, posted by tina on July 4, 2000, at 21:57:33
In the Levenkron book, he talks about some women who cut in this kind of way--to confirm a sense of control. They don't cut in any life-threatening way, and always cut in hidden places. The women tend to be high achievers, and seem perfectly well-adjusted to all around them. But often they are coping with difficult feelings in an environment that frowns on emotional expression, especially negative emotions.
Posted by tina on July 6, 2000, at 19:42:15
In reply to Re: Cutting Control, posted by noa on July 5, 2000, at 6:28:40
Sounds about right Noa. Soetimes I do it to exercise some control over an un controllable situation. My friends would tell you that I NEED to be in control of things at all times especially myself. I even get extremely upset over things I can't possibly control and that sometimes leads to my cutting episodes. But I still think it's about proving something. Either to myself or other's about how much of this hell they call life I can actually stand. I may need some therapy to figure it out completely but for now, I'll just make sure I don't sever any major arteries. Thank you for the support and feedback. Love you for your caring heart. Tina
> In the Levenkron book, he talks about some women who cut in this kind of way--to confirm a sense of control. They don't cut in any life-threatening way, and always cut in hidden places. The women tend to be high achievers, and seem perfectly well-adjusted to all around them. But often they are coping with difficult feelings in an environment that frowns on emotional expression, especially negative emotions.
Posted by Vesper on July 7, 2000, at 2:33:34
In reply to Cutting episodes, posted by tina on July 3, 2000, at 18:14:39
finding the real reason makes all the difference.
Does it really? No matter what the reason or reasons for me, none of them can be helped, so I just keep on cutting. Sigh.
Posted by Libby on July 7, 2000, at 10:27:21
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes, posted by Vesper on July 7, 2000, at 2:33:34
>No matter what the reason or reasons for me, none of them can be helped, so I just keep on cutting. Sigh.<
Knowing the whys helped me find alternate coping strategies. I cut to soothe my nerves after experiences I found too emotionally intense. Once I figured that much out, I was able to get help recognizing situations that were getting too intense for me and escape BEFORE I freaked out.
I didn't walk into my therapist's office asking him to help me stop cutting. I really didn't WANT to stop. When I finally "confessed" the cutting, I asked him to promise not to ask me to stop. He said he wouldn't if I promised I wouldn't cut to the point where it became life-threatening.
From there, we were able to explore the whys of my behavior. Once I saw them - and I was convinced that he understood why they worked for me - I was able to explore some of his suggestions for coping in different ways. He never once asked me to quit cutting and I still have made no promise never to cut again. That's important to me because for me, cutting was a secret source of calm in the event of an unbearable storm. I can't say I'll never do it again, but I can say that I haven't done it in many years...and that's not because I haven't had problems. It's just that I've found other alternatives that make me feel better in the long run. Tenormin and Prozac helped a lot with this process, but I think therapy made most of the difference.
L.
Posted by shellie on July 7, 2000, at 10:44:56
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes, posted by Libby on July 7, 2000, at 10:27:21
Libby, I think you make an excellent point. I think people can stop cutting when and if they decide they don't want to anymore. Cutting feels better than bad feelings so it is hard to give it up. But I think you are right on target--when I decided that I didn't want to cut anymore, I had to look into other coping strategies, and I had to be more willing to sit with feelings that were painful. shellie
Posted by Libby on July 7, 2000, at 11:38:55
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes » Libby, posted by shellie on July 7, 2000, at 10:44:56
>when I decided that I didn't want to cut anymore, I had to look into other coping strategies, and I had to be more willing to sit with feelings that were painful. shellie
Thanks Shellie... I have to say that even though cutting hasn't been a problem for me in awhile, it's been kinda nice to see people talking about it here. Makes me feel less freakish to see others talking about it.
L.
Posted by noa on July 7, 2000, at 14:33:16
In reply to Re: Cutting episodes Thanks Shellie, posted by Libby on July 7, 2000, at 11:38:55
I think the therapist's response was good. And that you were able to express that feeling of wanting to be able to talk about it without feeling like it would be taken away from you before you are ready, is tremendously good.
I have a question, which I hope you all won't mind me asking. How do you handle seeing medical doctors? Do they comment on the scars? How do you handle that? Or do avoid seeing doctors if they might notice something?
Also, did your therapist automatically trust you to define and monitor if you were doing anything that could be life-threatening, or did he work with you to establish what that meant?
Thanks.
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