![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 33 to 57 of 57. Go back in thread:
Posted by Sara T on May 16, 2000, at 14:02:20
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 0:24:19
> >
> > > Bob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
> > *************************************
> > Cindy,
> > How do you get past or a handle on the "crush" part anyway? In my post above I described how it led to my female psychopharmacologist suggesting that I see someone else until I worked through that issue (I had disclosed to her my feelings after about a year).
> > Do you believe that she and I should have explored that issue rather than her suggesting that I work through it with my talk therapist?
> > Anyway, I see from this thread that this is more of a common problem than I thought.
> > I was at the time trying frantically to find info. on transference from every book at the bookstores but they all seemed to be so clinical in their discussion of transference. I wonder if there is a good book that discusses this subject in depth???
> > By the way your post was most informative to me and the "grist for the mill" concept made sense to me - that is what prompted me to respond to your post.
> > Thanks
> > Alan
> > ****************************
> Alan, I think that only a really secure therapist could address the transference...therapists are just people. If they are threatened, seduced, or overly flattered by someone falling in love with them in therapy, it would be hard for them to keep working with the client. I am hoping that my pdoc is sufficiently secure and has good enough boundaries that I can explore how I feel without scaring him to death, seducing him, or making him think I'm nuts. Since many, maybe even most people, have positive feelings toward their therapist which go beyond gratitude, I think it is an interesting topic, and one with which I'm struggling now. How can I be madly in love with someone I hardly know? Maybe in part because he listens nonjudgmentally and accepts me for who I am without any apparent investment or hidden agenda; maybe because I don't see him at his worst, when he is not on the pedestal I place him on; maybe because I don't have to pick up his dirty socks, or whatever. Since I know very little about my pdoc, except that he is kind, patient, and attractive, I have projected all kinds of things onto him which are superhuman and unrealistic; this is probably the same I do in new relationships with men in my life. So the theory goes that if I understand what I'm doing, I don't have to fall into those traps any more and can learn to see men (starting with my therapist) more realistically. I think, I guess, I hope, I speculate...I don't know for sure.Cindy-
You are one brave lady to address your feelings with your therapist. I think I would be terribly uncomfortable even continuing therapy with a person I was "in love" with. I don't think I'd ever reveal my feelings toward my son's psych because the rejection would just tear me up.
But I am fairly unsophisticated in the matter of transferrance or for that matter psychology in general. I do know that there is some literature in journals about dual relationships between therapists and clients and the ethical considerations. It seems there is a dirth of research about this topic because any therapists that may have had relationships with their clients aren't likely to respond honestly about it or at all for obvious reasons. So there is just alot of conjecture as to how many therapists have ever acted on an attraction to a client.
But isn't transferrance between therapist and cliient like a person having a crush on a movie star or teacher who's kind? I think that it is very human to respond to the charisma or warmth of another person even if they are someone we don't know at all, or very well.
I believe I responded to the warmth of my son's psychologist because I really needed all the positive messages he was sending out. But it hurts to think of it as nothing more than the manipulations of therapy and to think that I am nothing more or less than just another of many people who come to see him.
I hope that you and your therapist can use your feelings and you will get what you want out of it.
Sara T.
Posted by bob on May 16, 2000, at 14:39:19
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 0:24:19
[Hey! Where did my P's go? ;^)]
> ... How can I be madly in love with someone I hardly know? Maybe in part because he listens nonjudgmentally and accepts me for who I am without any apparent investment or hidden agenda; maybe because I don't see him at his worst, when he is not on the pedestal I place him on; maybe because I don't have to pick up his dirty socks, or whatever. Since I know very little about my pdoc, except that he is kind, patient, and attractive, I have projected all kinds of things onto him which are superhuman and unrealistic; this is probably the same I do in new relationships with men in my life....
Well, whatever you do, then, be careful about computer dating!
Imagine trading emails, revealing more and more, and you know even less about the person ... and again, you start filling in the blanks. Like someone else mentioned, this isn't just something that happens between therapists and patients ... a number of situations are ripe for these sorts of relationships.
cheers,
bob
Posted by Noa on May 16, 2000, at 15:19:25
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Sara T on May 16, 2000, at 14:02:20
Sara,
The thing about having feelings for a therapist is that it is not entirely attributable to transference. There really are two real people interacting. The way you described working with your son's doc to develop behavior strategies really did sound like you were affected by having a moment with a caring man who was working with you in a supportive way and that is a kind of intimacy. It is partly feelings about a real moment, and partly feelings about the relationship needs you bring to the situation (ie transference). What is hard is that you do have to live with the limitations that your feelings cannot be acted upon. But that doesn't mean your feelings themselves were inappropriate in any way or that having such feelings is an indication of something wrong with you.
As for having feelings for someone you don't "know" much about...you do know something about a therapist. Maybe not the way you would with a social friend. But you come to know a real person who regularly responds to you using his or her real personality, even if not showing you all aspects of that personality. And the positive, supportive way of relating to you is not a manipulation. It is real. Ok, it isn't exclusive, as many of us might wish for sometimes, but that doesn't mean it isn't genuine. It is just limited.
I know it is hard to bring such feelings up to a doc, but if you can get to a point where you can muster up the courage, it might help to process them with him, not to go into depth about the meaning of the feelings for you, because he is not your therapist, but to work with him to strategize about how to be conscious of boundaries in a way that doesn't make you feel so uncomfortable, either because too much closeness feels too provocative, or because withdrawing and being distant makes you feel bad about yourself. Perhaps your therapist can talk to your son's doc for you?
Posted by Greg on May 16, 2000, at 15:20:56
In reply to lacing eople on edestals, posted by bob on May 16, 2000, at 14:39:19
You're a VERY funny guy bob, don't ever let anyone tell you any different.....
Greg
Posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 17:31:55
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
I find this to be the most interesting of threads that has come to light in a long time.
All of your insights are the subject of your long hours of speculation and the most personal of thoughts about relationships at the most intimate levels. This is the type of babble that is most insightful - to me anyway.
Intimacy is shared (one way or two way) on a very deep, profound level it seems in the best pdoc/patient relationships.
How can one NOT put the doc on some pedistal or NOT hope that they have some magical powers to work on me so that I can get better?
They're using some drugs to get me better that have the same chemical effect as someone being in love. That's a powerful position for a doc to be in I suppose. Not just a pdoc.
Alan.
***********************************
Posted by Adam on May 16, 2000, at 18:17:09
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 10:23:39
Hell, I had homophobic obsessions and he had me doing all kinds of uncomfortable
stuff in my neighborhood, which happened to be the "gay" nexus of D.C.Creative, and daring. I don't think it would even have occurred to me to send a
similar patient off shopping in a "gay" bookstore, for instance, or popping in at
a "gay" bar. Talk about tough. If this girl's obsessions were as intense as mine,
I imagine going to a cemetary must have been horrifying. Would I have done that
to her? I can't say.A little empathy is good. A lot is crippling, sometimes.
> > The best therapist I ever had was Charles Mansueto, PhD, who treated me for OCD
> He was most of all creative.
>
> I read an article about Mansueto several years ago, in the Post magazine, featuring his work with an adolescent girl with obsessions of death. He certainly WAS creative! He had her do increasingly intense work to take the power out of the topic of death, even looking at all manner of morbid stuff, and trips to the cemetary, etc. Apparently, it worked well.
Posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 23:33:41
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Alan, posted by Cindy W on May 16, 2000, at 8:46:46
> Alan, I think you're right...the fact that you got to know each other (your therapist revealed things) made it difficult to continue the therapeutic relationship. Sounds like she became uncomfortable and didn't feel she could work through the implications. I would imagine that that would make it very painful for the client, when the therapist then says go work it through with somebody else...it's like losing a therapist, confidante, friend, "crush" all at once, which would really hurt. In the past, I've always held back in therapy, until now, and never had quite the intensity of positive feelings I have now toward my pdoc. Hope I can resolve it successfully with him. As a therapist, I've never had to deal with this (have always worked in state hospitals and now in a prison, where I'm not allowed to reveal anything, which really discourages transference, as does the rule that any untoward verbal expressions or behavior by an inmate gets them cuffed and disciplined by custody). So for me, transference and countertransference have never really been an issue, as a therapist. It's weird being on the other side of the fence! Just by virtue of being so intimate with someone (telling him/her all your life history, fears, mistakes, fantasies, etc.), makes it almost like a love relationship but without the physical intimacy. That's what pulls for the transference, I think. The therapist has to be secure enough in himself/herself and in his/her relationships not to need to reciprocate with emotional or physical intimacy. It's a very weird relationship. But it sure does allow all the client's projections, fantasies, and typical patterns to emerge! It seems useful but at the same time very scary.
> I'm not sure I'd ever see the same therapist who's also seeing my spouse; that would be a little weird for me. I'd always wonder what they said about me when I'm not there. It's bad enough that my therapist sees a friend of mine (female). It's taken a while for me to realize that he does maintain confidentiality and doesn't disclose things I've told him in confidence to other people I know.--Cindy W
**********************
I wonder if I just asked to have a conversation with her if we could resolve this thing for me - and who knows, maybe she's curious. My wife stopped seeing her a couple of years ago and it's been several for me anyway. I know thorough my talk therapist who knows her well, that she learned alot from the relationship too. Do you think it would hurt Cindy? I wonder what the risks really are to such a conversation. I'm sure patients talk to pdocs down the road socially anyway...what is the matter with a talk with her on a one to one basis now...even if it is just for my sake. I wonder.
Alan.
****************************
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 9:28:36
In reply to Re: What is real?, posted by Noa on May 16, 2000, at 15:19:25
> Sara,
>
> The thing about having feelings for a therapist is that it is not entirely attributable to transference. There really are two real people interacting. The way you described working with your son's doc to develop behavior strategies really did sound like you were affected by having a moment with a caring man who was working with you in a supportive way and that is a kind of intimacy. It is partly feelings about a real moment, and partly feelings about the relationship needs you bring to the situation (ie transference). What is hard is that you do have to live with the limitations that your feelings cannot be acted upon. But that doesn't mean your feelings themselves were inappropriate in any way or that having such feelings is an indication of something wrong with you.
>
> As for having feelings for someone you don't "know" much about...you do know something about a therapist. Maybe not the way you would with a social friend. But you come to know a real person who regularly responds to you using his or her real personality, even if not showing you all aspects of that personality. And the positive, supportive way of relating to you is not a manipulation. It is real. Ok, it isn't exclusive, as many of us might wish for sometimes, but that doesn't mean it isn't genuine. It is just limited.
>
> I know it is hard to bring such feelings up to a doc, but if you can get to a point where you can muster up the courage, it might help to process them with him, not to go into depth about the meaning of the feelings for you, because he is not your therapist, but to work with him to strategize about how to be conscious of boundaries in a way that doesn't make you feel so uncomfortable, either because too much closeness feels too provocative, or because withdrawing and being distant makes you feel bad about yourself. Perhaps your therapist can talk to your son's doc for you?
Noa, I think you have made a good point. I think problems with closeness are especially hard to talk about; they are elicited by a variety of relationships, as Sara and Bob pointed out. But it may help to process them, not to create a dual relationship in therapy, but to explore why closeness is so complicated (e.g., I want closeness but fear it; want closeness but seek it from the wrong kinds of people; etc.).--Cindy W
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 9:33:54
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 17:31:55
> I find this to be the most interesting of threads that has come to light in a long time.
> All of your insights are the subject of your long hours of speculation and the most personal of thoughts about relationships at the most intimate levels. This is the type of babble that is most insightful - to me anyway.
> Intimacy is shared (one way or two way) on a very deep, profound level it seems in the best pdoc/patient relationships.
> How can one NOT put the doc on some pedistal or NOT hope that they have some magical powers to work on me so that I can get better?
> They're using some drugs to get me better that have the same chemical effect as someone being in love. That's a powerful position for a doc to be in I suppose. Not just a pdoc.
> Alan.
> ***********************************
Alan, it isn't just that there's using drugs to get us better. They care unconditionally which means a lot. They don't ask anything back. That's a powerful magnet, since most people in our lives want things from us.--Cindy W
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 9:36:46
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy, posted by Alan on May 16, 2000, at 23:33:41
>
> > Alan, I think you're right...the fact that you got to know each other (your therapist revealed things) made it difficult to continue the therapeutic relationship. Sounds like she became uncomfortable and didn't feel she could work through the implications. I would imagine that that would make it very painful for the client, when the therapist then says go work it through with somebody else...it's like losing a therapist, confidante, friend, "crush" all at once, which would really hurt. In the past, I've always held back in therapy, until now, and never had quite the intensity of positive feelings I have now toward my pdoc. Hope I can resolve it successfully with him. As a therapist, I've never had to deal with this (have always worked in state hospitals and now in a prison, where I'm not allowed to reveal anything, which really discourages transference, as does the rule that any untoward verbal expressions or behavior by an inmate gets them cuffed and disciplined by custody). So for me, transference and countertransference have never really been an issue, as a therapist. It's weird being on the other side of the fence! Just by virtue of being so intimate with someone (telling him/her all your life history, fears, mistakes, fantasies, etc.), makes it almost like a love relationship but without the physical intimacy. That's what pulls for the transference, I think. The therapist has to be secure enough in himself/herself and in his/her relationships not to need to reciprocate with emotional or physical intimacy. It's a very weird relationship. But it sure does allow all the client's projections, fantasies, and typical patterns to emerge! It seems useful but at the same time very scary.
> > I'm not sure I'd ever see the same therapist who's also seeing my spouse; that would be a little weird for me. I'd always wonder what they said about me when I'm not there. It's bad enough that my therapist sees a friend of mine (female). It's taken a while for me to realize that he does maintain confidentiality and doesn't disclose things I've told him in confidence to other people I know.--Cindy W
> **********************
> I wonder if I just asked to have a conversation with her if we could resolve this thing for me - and who knows, maybe she's curious. My wife stopped seeing her a couple of years ago and it's been several for me anyway. I know thorough my talk therapist who knows her well, that she learned alot from the relationship too. Do you think it would hurt Cindy? I wonder what the risks really are to such a conversation. I'm sure patients talk to pdocs down the road socially anyway...what is the matter with a talk with her on a one to one basis now...even if it is just for my sake. I wonder.
> Alan.
> ****************************
Alan, you might want to talk with her and just "clear the air" if you feel that would resolve it for you. That's why I want to talk about it with my pdoc, because I want to be totally honest and work through things and not keep going on the way I've been going through life (because that sure hasn't been working!). Working through this stuff with someone I trust, who has good boundaries, who is very ethical, may help (I hope).--Cindy W
Posted by Kay on May 17, 2000, at 14:35:15
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 9:33:54
> > ***********************************
> Alan, it isn't just that there's using drugs to get us better. They care unconditionally which means a lot. They don't ask anything back. That's a powerful magnet, since most people in our lives want things from us.--Cindy WCindy, I was interested to hear you say your therapist doesn't ask anything back. I feel like my therapist is another one of those "should" voices in my head.
For instance, he knows me well enough to activate me through making me feel guilty if I don't do what he recommends. (He once told me if I didn't do what he told me to, he'd have a hard time convincing my insurance company to continue to pay for my treatment.)
Kay
Posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 14:53:57
In reply to Therapist Relationship, posted by Kay on May 17, 2000, at 14:35:15
That is a problem with managed care. Sometimes, the cognitive-behavioral, short term model works and this fits in nicely with filling in insurance managed care forms, ie, what goals the patient is working on, etc. But often, this model is not the right one for patients. If you are made to feel you have to comply and do homework in order to address your needs, while for some this is a good way of working, it can also set up an unnecessary power struggle that just mimics other experiences you have had in your life. I think evoking the insurance company to get you to do your "work" is poor form.
However, that doesn't mean the therapist is a bad therapist. You may also be someone who is sensitive to the issue of compliance, and may have interpreted what the therapist said through the filter of "should-ism". I know there have been numerous times when my perceptions of things my therapist said were skewed, and clarifying them with him was really helpful.
My advice: talk to the therapist about your perception of what he said. It sounds like it can be a productive conversation.
Posted by allisonm on May 17, 2000, at 18:32:59
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 14:53:57
I think that at times my therapist has asked for nearly the moon and stars. Once he asked me to keep living, which was the hardest thing of all to do at the time, and I told him he was asking for a lot. Other times he asks me to bear with him as he frustrates me to extremes. I know it is for the good in the end, but he does ask for a lot -- and often. Sometimes I think I'd rather have my teeth filled.
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:24:16
In reply to Therapist Relationship, posted by Kay on May 17, 2000, at 14:35:15
>
> Cindy, I was interested to hear you say your therapist doesn't ask anything back. I feel like my therapist is another one of those "should" voices in my head.
>
> For instance, he knows me well enough to activate me through making me feel guilty if I don't do what he recommends. (He once told me if I didn't do what he told me to, he'd have a hard time convincing my insurance company to continue to pay for my treatment.)
>
> Kay
Kay, my therapist has never made me feel guilty because I haven't done what he wanted; in fact, I don't even know what he wants me to do except that he seems to be prodding me toward goals I set when I started therapy (get a divorce, decrease depression, decrease OCD are the ones I'm aware of). He seems very nonjudgmental.--Cindy W
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:27:26
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by Noa on May 17, 2000, at 14:53:57
> That is a problem with managed care. Sometimes, the cognitive-behavioral, short term model works and this fits in nicely with filling in insurance managed care forms, ie, what goals the patient is working on, etc. But often, this model is not the right one for patients. If you are made to feel you have to comply and do homework in order to address your needs, while for some this is a good way of working, it can also set up an unnecessary power struggle that just mimics other experiences you have had in your life. I think evoking the insurance company to get you to do your "work" is poor form.
>
> However, that doesn't mean the therapist is a bad therapist. You may also be someone who is sensitive to the issue of compliance, and may have interpreted what the therapist said through the filter of "should-ism". I know there have been numerous times when my perceptions of things my therapist said were skewed, and clarifying them with him was really helpful.
>
> My advice: talk to the therapist about your perception of what he said. It sounds like it can be a productive conversation.Kay, I agree with Noa that you should talk to your therapist about your perception. --Cindy W
Posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:30:23
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by allisonm on May 17, 2000, at 18:32:59
> I think that at times my therapist has asked for nearly the moon and stars. Once he asked me to keep living, which was the hardest thing of all to do at the time, and I told him he was asking for a lot. Other times he asks me to bear with him as he frustrates me to extremes. I know it is for the good in the end, but he does ask for a lot -- and often. Sometimes I think I'd rather have my teeth filled.
Allisonm, your description of therapy is a good one! I'm always so terrified when I walk to my therapist's office I feel like I'm going to hyperventilate and have to sit for a few minutes to catch my breath. The hardest thing my pdoc ever asked me to do was to trust him and go on living, too (last December, I was ready to give up) and to try another medication, after nothing was working and OCD and depression were winning. --Cindy W
Posted by allisonm on May 17, 2000, at 21:51:05
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by Cindy W on May 17, 2000, at 21:30:23
I see him again tomorrow, and I've been thinking about it for the last two days, but especially this evening -- as always. I spend so much more time worrying about what we're going to talk about, and then the session is over in a flash. The last few times I've been especially wired from the increased dose in meds, which hasn't helped my thinking. I get in there and get distracted and scattered enough that I forget to get into what I've been thinking about all week. Then I kick myself later.
I know I'm not saying anything new here. I do like having some "homework" -- things to think about and work on in between our appointments, but I do have to say I get pretty tired of the anticipation and worry.
BTW, thanks for the book recommendation. I've ordered a copy.
Posted by JennyR on May 20, 2000, at 21:57:11
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
Kay-
If the conversation with your therapist is superficial, but you are new to working together, maybe that is your therapist's idea of relationship building and giving you time to get comfortable. However, I agree that he/she should not be telling you about themselves. I thought that transference was a lot of garbage, but it has proven in my experience to be a real and a powerful phenomenon. It is the hardest and most uncomfortable thing to deal with in therapy, but where I've learned the most about myself. The more you know about your therapist, the more you sort of tailor what you say and don't say to them, which limits the transference possibilities.
To answer your question directly about how much I know about my therapist - he works out of the bottom floor of his house (brownstone type house) so I know where he lives. He moves his car to the opposite side of the street before my appointment, so I know what his car looks like. I have seen his wife and kid coming and going, so I know what they look like. I hate to see the wife - I compare myself to her and though I feel I compare favorably, I hate to see her and have decided I hate her even though I don't know her at all. I am very jealous, which puzzles me because I am not a jealous person and I have no romantic feelings toward him. I think I just hate the idea that someone means a hell of a lot more to him than me when he means so much to me. Which I know is sort of absurd and irrational. I know this is just his work and I am one of many. Also, he's in his mid to late 40s and the kid is 4. So it makes me wonder what the deal is with that - like couldn't get it together until later in life, or it's a second marriage, or fertility problems, etc, etc. I would rather have not ever seen any part of his life. The only part of him I really care to know is what he demonstrates to me -in the course of his interactions with me.
Posted by paul on May 21, 2000, at 1:04:29
In reply to I beg to differ ..., posted by bob on May 12, 2000, at 21:40:22
i too have felt like my therapist and i are more like friends than some sort of more distant, colder relationship. the big difference is i willingly tell her the difficult stuff that i dont bore my friends with. and she lays it on the line in return-sometimes right in my mcLAP. in the beginning, i wanted her to push me every which way to get me to grow. this has happenned, but ONLY after we got to know each other. she's left me thinkin about things that have caused major growth that of course i wont allow myself to see because that would mean i'm getting better. as far as the money thing goes, I gave her a raise a few weeks back!
she's very understanding about $$ and gives me NO greif about it whatsoever. she's just a very reachable person. do i know a lot about her? she likes sunglasses and boots and she's done me one HELL of a lot of good-got me to stop playing my timewasting games with her-like trying to make her laugh-i aint there to practice stand-up comedy routines although it was sort of like that in the beginning.
and thats the sum total of what i know. and she cares. and thats PLENTY goodenuf for me.
pcl
Posted by Cindy W on May 23, 2000, at 10:15:40
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by allisonm on May 17, 2000, at 21:51:05
> I see him again tomorrow, and I've been thinking about it for the last two days, but especially this evening -- as always. I spend so much more time worrying about what we're going to talk about, and then the session is over in a flash. The last few times I've been especially wired from the increased dose in meds, which hasn't helped my thinking. I get in there and get distracted and scattered enough that I forget to get into what I've been thinking about all week. Then I kick myself later.
>
> I know I'm not saying anything new here. I do like having some "homework" -- things to think about and work on in between our appointments, but I do have to say I get pretty tired of the anticipation and worry.
>
> BTW, thanks for the book recommendation. I've ordered a copy.allisonm, I have to go see my pdoc on the 5th, and am already worried about what to talk about. Last time, I managed to divert the conversation to work hassles, but this time, want to work on more of my real problems, about relationships. Ran into my pdoc at work about a week ago, and he looked worried or angry or something, which made me really paranoid (afraid he's mad at me because of some hassles at work). So am kind of anxious about the next appt. Am always afraid he'll decide, 'you're too f***ed up, and I can't help you,' like the therapist in a later thread on this site did to his client. I realize that is an unreasonable fear, but that's one of my problems, that whenever somebody seems unhappy or angry, it's because I did something to make them feel that way and that I should not upset other people. Oh, well, more to discuss in therapy! That might be a better starting point too for discussing the transference and relationships, rather than how I always fall in love with people who are unreachable and put them on a pedestal and all.--Cindy W
Posted by allisonm on May 23, 2000, at 18:49:25
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by Cindy W on May 23, 2000, at 10:15:40
Hi Cindy,
Your story made me laugh because last week I did just what you did -- divert the conversation to work-related stuff. I always get irritated with myself for doing that, but this time I think I got something out of it. I suspect my situation is similar to yours in wanting to please everyone. I have made a practice of trying to placate people so that they won't be mad at me later for whatever reason, real or imagined. When my mother was alive, for example, and I knew I was going to disappoint her --like not being there for some occasion or other, I would do extra things for her or make extraordinary concessions before the event so that she might not be so disappointed later. My doctor and I call it "buying insurance."Besides the continual pandemonium at work, we talked about my boss confiding in me more than she should about her insecurities and outright fear of our big boss in the job she has. It can and has become burdensome to carry that extra knowledge in my head. So my doctor turned my listening around on me as an example of buying insurance, but I still think it also has a lot to do with wanting to keep my job and get a good evaluation.
Your situation where you work in another capacity with your doctor would scare the heck out of me. Does it help to have him so near your own work? Does he understand better than an outsider what you have to deal with or is it harder? Do you have enough exchanges with him at work that you have to worry a lot about what he thinks on that level too?
In any case, I've got another appointment Thursday and hope we can get somewhere on topics that seem more at the root of things.
I started reading "In Session" last night. Thanks again for mentioning it.
allison
Posted by Noa on May 24, 2000, at 17:01:26
In reply to Re: Therapist Relationship, posted by allisonm on May 23, 2000, at 18:49:25
Cindy, I think talking about the fear that you are the cause of other people's unhappiness is a good topic, and it is probably very closely related to the other issue of falling in love with unreachable people, don't you think? Besides, I think it is always better to discuss issues that are present and accessible, rather than abstract, or not present in the sense of having real incidents to look at from right now.
I am confused--do you work professionally with the person who is your therapist?
Posted by hon on May 18, 2001, at 15:11:03
In reply to Therapist Relationship, posted by Kay on May 17, 2000, at 14:35:15
> > > ***********************************
> > Alan, it isn't just that there's using drugs to get us better. They care unconditionally which means a lot. They don't ask anything back. That's a powerful magnet, since most people in our lives want things from us.--Cindy W
>
> Cindy, I was interested to hear you say your therapist doesn't ask anything back. I feel like my therapist is another one of those "should" voices in my head.
>
> For instance, he knows me well enough to activate me through making me feel guilty if I don't do what he recommends. (He once told me if I didn't do what he told me to, he'd have a hard time convincing my insurance company to continue to pay for my treatment.)
>
> Kay
Kay,
I think what you just said is horrible. No therapist should manipulate you or use his power to get you to do things. Even if those things are ultimately what is best for you. These are the decesions you must make for yourself. Many of us enter therapy because we cannot make these decisions for ourselves & it is our therapists job to help us understand why we cannot make them & how we can change that. IT IS NEVER their job to push us into doing something we do not want to do. With the exception of convincing a suicidal patient not to kill themselves. GET A NEW THERAPIST please for your own good.
Jennifer
Posted by blabblermouth on May 21, 2001, at 20:07:43
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
> No, this isn't a quiz.
>
> I've recently started seeing a new therapist. (It's been about 10 years since I was in therapy, although I've been depressed and on various medications in the meantime.) The relationship I have with this therapist is different from the one I had with my first therapist.
>I can certainly relate to that. My first 'therapist' (if you want to call her that)told me that everything that had happened to me as a child was my fault and the sooner I realized and accepted that fact, the sooner I'd get better, and not until then. Needless to say I didn't go back. I didn't try again until 13 years later.
> We seem to spend a lot of time in more social conversation. I can't exactly complain about this because it's difficult for me to express my feelings and as long as I can steer the conversation away from me, I'm more comfortable. But somehow I feel like maybe we ought to be talking more about what's going on inside MY head if I expect to get anything out of therapy.
I can relate to this one too(imagine that). I try to talk about anything else but what is really on my mind sometimes, just to keep from dealing with the real issue.
There are times I go in with so much on my mind, and so many things to say, but I'll draw a blank when he shuts the door. We'll start 'casual conversation' and if I ask him a personal question sometimes he'll spark something with his response. Fortunately for me, he knows me well enough to see through the times I'm trying to stall, and calls me on it "What's the real issue." response, and most of the time it works.
> SO, HOW ABOUT IT? Do the rest of you guys know your therapist's family, hobbies, likes/dislikes in books, music, cars, animals? Not that I'm asking anyone to list them--I just want to know if you're on quite these same terms with your therapists.
Yeah, I know him pretty well. I could list all of those things and more, but since you didn't ask... :-)After the incident with the first therapist, I made my current therapist walk to hell and back.Pages and pages of questions,(one alone was over 40 pages) not necessarily 'personal', however, I knew his morals, and all that other good stuff when I was finished.
I have asked him personal questions, everything I can imagine. Sports, his favorite food, etc., past times, and over the years, I think I know him pretty well. I asked him about this one day, and he told me that he knew if I didn't answer him honestly, I would have had a negative reaction, and he's right. I've never seen him in public, and I'm not sure how I'd react if I did.
The 'lightbulb' moment was when I told him how I felt for him. It was 10:15pm, and ended being the longest phone conversation I've ever had. 3+ hours, and during that phone conversation, he told me that what I'd shared was a gift. Something that I was so uncomfortable with, I couldn't say it in person, and I had made myself completely vulnerable for the first time in my adult life.
We've had numerous conversations regarding the transference thing, and still discuss to this day. He promised me that he'd never exploit how I felt, and has kept his word.
I think that if he'd been more like Freud I'd have popped his chops, and never returned. He knew I needed to see a 'human' that wasn't perfect, but knew his stuff, and since then have made a lot of progress.
I think that it's an individual thing though. I would definitely suggest that you bring it up. If you can't say it in person, write it down, or print off a portion of the thread. Perhaps you could draw attention back to you by using the therapists comments for your benefit. Of course I drew a blank on an example- if your talking about one of your therapist's personal relationships and you have difficulty in that area, find out what the therapist does that seems to be so different. This has been a big benefit to me. I do get to know my therapist as a person, find out what makes him tick, and get to use those experiences and apply them to myself. Make sense, or am I an 'idiot'?
Sorry for rambling,
Blabblermouth
>
> Or is this just part of my social phobia . . .
>
> Thanks, Kay
Posted by mary poppins on February 19, 2002, at 23:36:30
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
> No, this isn't a quiz.
>
> I've recently started seeing a new therapist. (It's been about 10 years since I was in therapy, although I've been depressed and on various medications in the meantime.) The relationship I have with this therapist is different from the one I had with my first therapist.
>
> We seem to spend a lot of time in more social conversation. I can't exactly complain about this because it's difficult for me to express my feelings and as long as I can steer the conversation away from me, I'm more comfortable. But somehow I feel like maybe we ought to be talking more about what's going on inside MY head if I expect to get anything out of therapy.
>
> SO, HOW ABOUT IT? Do the rest of you guys know your therapist's family, hobbies, likes/dislikes in books, music, cars, animals? Not that I'm asking anyone to list them--I just want to know if you're on quite these same terms with your therapists.
>
> Or is this just part of my social phobia . . .
>
> Thanks, KayHi Kay,
I can appreciate your post. I have been in therapy for four years and I am just now starting to really trust my therapist. My biggest thing I tell him is that I want him to be more real, not a robot. I tell him that all the time.. he said to me the other day that he will try to be more "real" around me. I ask him questions about his life.. probably ones I really shouldn't be asking.. but hey...lol. anyway I tell him that even though he is an educated man .. he still is in fact a man.. and also a human being. they still have a life as you and me.. kids, spouses, flat tires, over sleep, marital problems and sometimes they don't feel like going to work either.. and I personally would have someone who lives in reality, try to help me be in reality.. hope this helps you! Good Luck! :o)
Wendy
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