![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 57. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
No, this isn't a quiz.
I've recently started seeing a new therapist. (It's been about 10 years since I was in therapy, although I've been depressed and on various medications in the meantime.) The relationship I have with this therapist is different from the one I had with my first therapist.
We seem to spend a lot of time in more social conversation. I can't exactly complain about this because it's difficult for me to express my feelings and as long as I can steer the conversation away from me, I'm more comfortable. But somehow I feel like maybe we ought to be talking more about what's going on inside MY head if I expect to get anything out of therapy.
SO, HOW ABOUT IT? Do the rest of you guys know your therapist's family, hobbies, likes/dislikes in books, music, cars, animals? Not that I'm asking anyone to list them--I just want to know if you're on quite these same terms with your therapists.
Or is this just part of my social phobia . . .
Thanks, Kay
Posted by tina on May 12, 2000, at 16:09:18
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
> Kay: I had a therapist last summer that was very much like that. It was one of the reasons that I left her. She seemed to talk as much about her troubles as she did about mine. It was just toooooo weird. I like my pdocs to be clinical and somewhat freudian(not in principles but in manner). If you aren't comfortable--It won't help you. Seek help elsewhere.
Just my humble opinion.
No, this isn't a quiz.
>
> I've recently started seeing a new therapist. (It's been about 10 years since I was in therapy, although I've been depressed and on various medications in the meantime.) The relationship I have with this therapist is different from the one I had with my first therapist.
>
> We seem to spend a lot of time in more social conversation. I can't exactly complain about this because it's difficult for me to express my feelings and as long as I can steer the conversation away from me, I'm more comfortable. But somehow I feel like maybe we ought to be talking more about what's going on inside MY head if I expect to get anything out of therapy.
>
> SO, HOW ABOUT IT? Do the rest of you guys know your therapist's family, hobbies, likes/dislikes in books, music, cars, animals? Not that I'm asking anyone to list them--I just want to know if you're on quite these same terms with your therapists.
>
> Or is this just part of my social phobia . . .
>
> Thanks, Kay
Posted by Cass on May 12, 2000, at 18:31:29
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by tina on May 12, 2000, at 16:09:18
Hi Kay,
It seems to me that the focus of therapy should be YOU. Many years ago, I had a therapist like yours. Like you, I also had a hard time expressing my feelings, and I was VERY insecure. I felt sort of honored that he was discussing his personal life with me. He was very complimentary toward me, and I developed a crush on him. We sson went outside the boundaries of a psychologist/patient relationship. For example, he asked me out once, and we had a lot of physical contact (but never intercourse). I was in "therapy" with him for about 2 years which I consider a complete waste. It was even damaging because toward the end I think he got scared about the inapropriateness of our relationship, and he suddenly became formal and distant and acted like the relationship had never been anything but. That was a real head trip for me. I'm not saying I think your pdoc will behave that innapropriately, but don't waste your time in therapy if it's not YOU who is getting something out of it.
P.S. To anyone who read my "Pdoc gone bad?" post. The psychologist I just wrote about is the one who referred me to the pdoc who eventually went to jail for raping a patient. Overall, it was a horrible initiation into the world of therapy.
Posted by harry b. on May 12, 2000, at 19:33:31
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
Kay-
As the others have said, the focus should be on YOU.
Personally, if I got chummy with a therapist, I'd
be less likely to open up and share all my crap.I don't know anything about my current therapist
beyond the questions I asked (methods, education,
experience, etc) before I began seeing him.
Posted by Mark H. on May 12, 2000, at 21:21:21
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
Kay,
My therapist happens to be a good friend of long-standing with whom my wife and I socialize three or four times a year. However, he is crystal clear that on Wednesday nights between 6:30 and 8:00, he is my therapist and most decidedly NOT my friend, and because he has 33 years of counseling experience, he is even better about maintaining that boundary than I am.
Therapists are people and have their own problems and interests. Some are not conscious enough to do a good job of monitoring their own behavior. If your therapist can get paid $25 to $95 an hour for you to listen to her/his interests and concerns, that sounds like a pretty sweet deal. If one of the issues you are working on is your manipulation of others to avoid talking about yourself, then this therapist simply does not have the skill level to do you much good.
You are responsible for your half of the relationship. If you are getting your money's worth and/or believe that it's OK for you to pay someone for their friendship, then there is no problem. Right?
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Alan on May 12, 2000, at 21:37:16
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
> No, this isn't a quiz.
>
> I've recently started seeing a new therapist. (It's been about 10 years since I was in therapy, although I've been depressed and on various medications in the meantime.) The relationship I have with this therapist is different from the one I had with my first therapist.
>
> We seem to spend a lot of time in more social conversation. I can't exactly complain about this because it's difficult for me to express my feelings and as long as I can steer the conversation away from me, I'm more comfortable. But somehow I feel like maybe we ought to be talking more about what's going on inside MY head if I expect to get anything out of therapy.
>
> SO, HOW ABOUT IT? Do the rest of you guys know your therapist's family, hobbies, likes/dislikes in books, music, cars, animals? Not that I'm asking anyone to list them--I just want to know if you're on quite these same terms with your therapists.
>
> Or is this just part of my social phobia . . .
>
> Thanks, Kay
********************************
I'd personally be out of there. Clear boundries, from my experience, allow one to feel mutual respect. They are doctors and as much as we would like them to be sometimes, just not friends.I got into trouble with a woman pdoc who shared what turned out to be entirely too much personal information with me (just her style she said) and I ended up having the worst crush on her and boy did that hurt in the end! I know that she had feelings for me even though she didn't say it - it's something you just sense. That was 5-6 years ago and I'm still partly getting over it.
This may not be your situation exactly but it demonstrates what can happen when this type of relationship gets out of balance. I'd hope that you could find someone that respected the relationship a little more...
Best wishes,
Alan
Posted by bob on May 12, 2000, at 21:40:22
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by harry b. on May 12, 2000, at 19:33:31
... well, no, not really. No begging about it.
Sure, sometimes it seems like we should be sitting at Starbucks instead of in her office.
My therapist's office is one room of her apartment. Her "waiting area" is the big, open living space with the high ceilings that are so lovely in Upper West Side prewar buildings, with the usual kitchenette just off of it. Besides playing with her cats and admiring her paintings, both completed and works-in-progress (one sat on her easel for over a year without being touched), there are the interesting yoga devices she has (including one that looks like its from a torture chamber, if you ask me!) and hundreds of books. No TV, an ancient PC (used, obviously, only for keeping her records ... and not by her, but rather the woman who does her medical billing!), and one of those all-in-one stereos (radio, tape, record player) from 1982 or so. She finally got a portable CD player and it's been astounding to watch her collection mushroom, considering the lack of entertainment/media products before its arrival. A broad range of World Music. Recent deluges of Celtic and Sufi recordings.
For someone like me who has lived his life rather socially withdrawn, spending time with my therapist's life while she finishes her earlier appointments has been an interesting exercise in coming to know someone through the things in which she submerses herself.
Especially her refridgerator -- covered with family photos (she lives alone ... and no, I don't know why) and clippings from Mother Jones or any of the Buddhist magazines she gets.
We've talked about her health problems -- some back issues, some skin issues, other long-term things that are more constant nags than anything threatening, and the alternative med approaches she's taken to alleviate what western medicine has no answers for.
Yes, there have been sessions where we've been "distracted" for the entire time, but I've never felt that my money has been wasted.
You see, in this process, I've come to know enough about who she *is*, without knowing too many of the details of her life, to have developed a deep and abiding trust. She remains a professional without being distant, and I feel that the more I've come to know -- not in my head, but in my heart and gut -- that she is a fellow human being and not some "artificial intelligence" sitting invisibile yet audible at the head of the couch, the more I trust what she has to say. This is particularly important, I think, since although she was trained in a rather classical analytic program, she approaches therapy from multiple perspectives. When she comes at me with a suggestion -- such as a different interpretation of events from the one that comes out of my disordered mindset -- a suggestion that may really sound like it's out on a limb somewhere, she and I both know who it is who's going to go out on that limb to see if the idea is worth consideration.
That trust is built just as much on what she knows of me that lies "outside" of my neuroses. I know that when she starts things off with "So how's Bob been lately?" [yes, she says it "Bob" even though I write it "bob"], I don't have to get "down to business" immediately. I know that whatever we talk about, it all proves important ... maybe not immediately nor directly, but it all contributes to the whole.
I know that she knows me well enough to point out what is good about who I am, and she's not afraid to bring those points up (without the slightest hint of sounding pollyanna-ish) to cut through my tirades of self-hate, to stop me from mentally taking a boxcutter to my insides, and bring back a measure of sanity to my mind.
I know some people think that it's not a therapist's job to provide comfort or the sort of "support" that should, presumably, be the province of family and friends. Yet another application of YMMV -- if you prefer interacting with a minimally-communicative cold dead fish who thinks that showing signs of normal human emotional responses to patients is unprofessional ... well, god bless and enjoy your therapy.
Having isolated myself so much from real human beings, I'm glad there is one human being in my life who refuses to be marginalized without also demanding center stage. She forces me to relate to her as a fellow caring person, but she keeps the focus on me. There is no way she would be able to accomplish this if she didn't respond the way she does.
So yeah, I imagine I know her better than most of you out there know your therapists. I really don't know any of the small-talk sort of details of her life, but that's not what's important in knowing someone, is it? Well, okay, it's important if you're a hopeless gossip, but that ain't me.
I am also certain that she has come to know me in ways I do not know myself ... ways, all the same, that I really need to come to know.
my two cents,
bob
Posted by Janet on May 12, 2000, at 23:57:17
In reply to I beg to differ ..., posted by bob on May 12, 2000, at 21:40:22
My therapist is wonderful. The only personal question that I asked outright, was, what was her religion? With which she replied, that it really did not matter because whatever she would say about religion would along with everything else she says, has to be thought about and taken to heart after consideration and I can't just take her word because she is the same religion or because she is the therapist. I don't know if I explained it right. It really helped me to see I have power and not to be led along (like in past experiences).
She is very knowledgable in therapy, not so much in bi-polar, but it has not posed a problem. She treats me as someone who is coming for therapy, not another illness with excuses. Have I said it clearly ?
I don't want to talk about her, I want to discuss my life. I can tell a lot about her by her office and little comments that come up once in a while. I used to think I wanted to know a lot about these people so I can feel more open to share, but I'd rather get down to business now.
My teenage daughter had some major memories she would not talk to me about, and I referred her to my psychologist and they have come so far in a short time because they got down to work each week, I owe her a huge thank you.
I guess it's whatever you feel comfortable with at this time in your life !!!!!!!
Posted by Cindy W on May 13, 2000, at 10:56:38
In reply to I beg to differ ..., posted by bob on May 12, 2000, at 21:40:22
> ... well, no, not really. No begging about it.
>
> Sure, sometimes it seems like we should be sitting at Starbucks instead of in her office.
>
> My therapist's office is one room of her apartment. Her "waiting area" is the big, open living space with the high ceilings that are so lovely in Upper West Side prewar buildings, with the usual kitchenette just off of it. Besides playing with her cats and admiring her paintings, both completed and works-in-progress (one sat on her easel for over a year without being touched), there are the interesting yoga devices she has (including one that looks like its from a torture chamber, if you ask me!) and hundreds of books. No TV, an ancient PC (used, obviously, only for keeping her records ... and not by her, but rather the woman who does her medical billing!), and one of those all-in-one stereos (radio, tape, record player) from 1982 or so. She finally got a portable CD player and it's been astounding to watch her collection mushroom, considering the lack of entertainment/media products before its arrival. A broad range of World Music. Recent deluges of Celtic and Sufi recordings.
>
> For someone like me who has lived his life rather socially withdrawn, spending time with my therapist's life while she finishes her earlier appointments has been an interesting exercise in coming to know someone through the things in which she submerses herself.
>
> Especially her refridgerator -- covered with family photos (she lives alone ... and no, I don't know why) and clippings from Mother Jones or any of the Buddhist magazines she gets.
>
> We've talked about her health problems -- some back issues, some skin issues, other long-term things that are more constant nags than anything threatening, and the alternative med approaches she's taken to alleviate what western medicine has no answers for.
>
> Yes, there have been sessions where we've been "distracted" for the entire time, but I've never felt that my money has been wasted.
>
> You see, in this process, I've come to know enough about who she *is*, without knowing too many of the details of her life, to have developed a deep and abiding trust. She remains a professional without being distant, and I feel that the more I've come to know -- not in my head, but in my heart and gut -- that she is a fellow human being and not some "artificial intelligence" sitting invisibile yet audible at the head of the couch, the more I trust what she has to say. This is particularly important, I think, since although she was trained in a rather classical analytic program, she approaches therapy from multiple perspectives. When she comes at me with a suggestion -- such as a different interpretation of events from the one that comes out of my disordered mindset -- a suggestion that may really sound like it's out on a limb somewhere, she and I both know who it is who's going to go out on that limb to see if the idea is worth consideration.
>
> That trust is built just as much on what she knows of me that lies "outside" of my neuroses. I know that when she starts things off with "So how's Bob been lately?" [yes, she says it "Bob" even though I write it "bob"], I don't have to get "down to business" immediately. I know that whatever we talk about, it all proves important ... maybe not immediately nor directly, but it all contributes to the whole.
>
> I know that she knows me well enough to point out what is good about who I am, and she's not afraid to bring those points up (without the slightest hint of sounding pollyanna-ish) to cut through my tirades of self-hate, to stop me from mentally taking a boxcutter to my insides, and bring back a measure of sanity to my mind.
>
> I know some people think that it's not a therapist's job to provide comfort or the sort of "support" that should, presumably, be the province of family and friends. Yet another application of YMMV -- if you prefer interacting with a minimally-communicative cold dead fish who thinks that showing signs of normal human emotional responses to patients is unprofessional ... well, god bless and enjoy your therapy.
>
> Having isolated myself so much from real human beings, I'm glad there is one human being in my life who refuses to be marginalized without also demanding center stage. She forces me to relate to her as a fellow caring person, but she keeps the focus on me. There is no way she would be able to accomplish this if she didn't respond the way she does.
>
> So yeah, I imagine I know her better than most of you out there know your therapists. I really don't know any of the small-talk sort of details of her life, but that's not what's important in knowing someone, is it? Well, okay, it's important if you're a hopeless gossip, but that ain't me.
>
> I am also certain that she has come to know me in ways I do not know myself ... ways, all the same, that I really need to come to know.
>
> my two cents,
> bobBob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
Posted by Noa on May 13, 2000, at 12:58:42
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ..., posted by Cindy W on May 13, 2000, at 10:56:38
I think there is room for different styles. But Kay is clearly uncomfortable with how this therapy has started out. A question I have is whether the therapist, in picking up on your discomfort in opening up and beginning to discuss feelings, has "accidentally" stepped into a role with you that might be played by someone else in your life, or that your wish someone would.
I think the best course of action is to tell your therapist what you told us: that you are having unsettled feelings about how much she is disclosing to you, and that even though it feels safe to not have to go into your own difficult business yet, you have a sense that she should be helping you do that, rather than colluding with you to avoid it. If she is a therapist with any modicum of competence, she will handle this with poise, and be able to own her role in this dynamic.
Another thought is to have a consultation with another therapist, with or without your current therapist's knowledge. This might allow you to see another therapist's style, to compare them and ask yourself about what it feels like to be with each of them, but also might be helpful in guiding you and your current therapist out of what seems to you to be an unproductive path and onto a better one.
BTW, in answer to your question, I know some things about my therapist, but not a lot of things. Some of the things I learned during a period when his wife was dying of cancer, and after her death, and it affected our meeting times, etc. Over the years, I have occasionally asked some questions, and while he has answered some, we have also explored the effects of whether he answers or not on how I feel in therapy.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Posted by bob on May 13, 2000, at 14:28:25
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ..., posted by Noa on May 13, 2000, at 12:58:42
From Kay's original post:
SO, HOW ABOUT IT? Do the rest of you guys know your therapist's family, hobbies, likes/dislikes in books, music, cars, animals?It sounds like folks are taking "knowing" someone "socially" to all different heights ... certainly far beyond knowing what books your therapist reads.
Bringing up transference here -- well, my apologies if I offend anyone by this, but I'm no fan of Freud -- is really quite amusing. On the one hand, analysts are to maintain this objective, professional distance. On the other, it is expected that the analysand is going to be transferring their emotions from other relationships onto the analyst. Sounds like a catch-22 to me. At one level, you're not expected to be "socially acquainted" while, at the same time, at another level you need to be "intimately acquainted". If you're trying to deal with issues where you've got nothing but "inappropriate emotional responses" from things you've done, transferring that to someone else who's just going to toss back "So how does that make you feel?" at you seems like you're still not getting an appropriate emotional response.
I imagine that such role-play does some good for some folks out there. And from others have described here, I can see why you may need some space between you and your therapists ... particularly if you socialize with them outside of your sessions.
I, for one, am much happier knowing enough about my therapist to be unable of projecting any of my prior relationships onto her. None of them fit her very well.
cheers,
bob
Posted by Adam on May 14, 2000, at 17:55:41
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
> No, this isn't a quiz.
>
>
No, but it's a tough topic, and I know I'm probably going to catch some serious hell for what I'm about to say. This reflects my belief, however, and, to an extent, my experience.I for one will never enter the field of clinical psychology or psychiatry, even though I think I posess the mental faculties to do the job at least as adequately as some of my earlier providers. Issues of "transferrance", as someone mentioned above, are important. I think "transferrance," to use the term loosely, can go both ways.
The thought of sitting across from someone (as a therapist) who closely resembles me in their irrational emotional grief is something I'm not sure I could endure or ought to. I have had severely depressed friends and even significant-others in the past. I found I was, having read the self-help books and absorbed many of the platitudes my therapists doled out to me from the psycho-Pez dispenser (apologies to the "Frasier" writers), a very good ape of a shrink. They would lament, I would adopt my Sigmund persona, and the rest you can guess. They went away thinking I was most sage, I felt briefly like a savior, and neither of us took the advice that passed between us, or in any fundamental way believed any of it.
Call me crazy, but I think many a patient-doctor relationship in the field of psychology has essentially the same dynamic. Clinically depressed people, in a sincere effort to both help others and understand themselves, become therapists. They bring to their practice the benefit of intimate knowledge and true empathy, but also the burden of their own hopes and fears. They may not only project these onto theit patients, but, to an extent, want to bond with them as comisserators. I think the weight of this baggage can do serious dammage to the patient-therapist relationship, even when both are not aware of it at the time.
This is not to universally impugn the depressed or the depressed therapist, but I think that for a therapist to be truly effective they themselves must have or develop a safe distance from the heartache of mental illness, in the interests of the patient. Of course they should posess both empathy and sympathy, to the extent that they are caring human beings, and are moved within certain bounds to help their patients end their suffering. But that's where the line should be drawn. I think most of us know when that line is being crossed, and when it is, I think it is appropriate to end the relationship and move on. This will have two benefits, I am guessing: The patient can get the best care; the therapist must wrestle with the issues surrounding the end of the relationship and come to terms with them. If they can, they go on to be better therapists.
The best therapist I ever had was Charles Mansueto, PhD, who treated me for OCD (and in a limited way depression, since the two were so tightly interwoven). As far as I know, he never suffered from mental illness. He was still very kind, very insightful, personable, approachable, sincerely caring, and reasonably accomidating. He was most of all creative. I must admit I think he took a bit of playful delight in subjecting his poor patients to the inevitable discomforts of bahvioral therapy. I don't think there was a malicious bone in his body, he just saw some of the humor in it, and so did I, eventually. He knew, I think, that the more we squirmed the better the therapy was going, and saw progress in the struggle. I think I, in his shoes, would have felt this way with the rational part of myself, and would have simultaneously wanted to flee the room as fast as possible, or break down in tears. It would have shown. And that would help no one.
I thank the heavens for therapists like Dr. Mansueto, for his humanity,professionalism, and ingenuity. And the caring, as well as healthy, relationship I had with him. This sort of thing is what we need in our therapiststs. Don't just wish for it, demand it.
Posted by allisonm on May 14, 2000, at 18:11:36
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
An interesting question. I'm glad you asked. This subject has been on my mind a lot lately.
I know little about my therapist save for that he teaches at the university here. I kind of know where he was educated from the shingles on the wall. He reads a lot (no duh, allison). He doesn't read newspapers. I can get a feel for what he reads by the books he pulls out and reads from for examples and from what I see on the shelves. He likes wolves and from the examples he has used, seems to have an interest in Native American lore. We both work at the university, so sometimes we share pessimism about the university system and great distain for the managed health care system.
He seems to like to travel to out-of -the-ordinary warm places in the winter (don't we all)? I saw him once seated on a plane I was getting on about two months after I started seeing him and I got kind of paranoid -- as though he wasn't supposed to be out in public, and certainly not on the same plane.
He doesn't know a thing about gardening or painting, or some of the other things I know about, so sometimes I have to take time to explain. He's just getting into computers, I think. I get the impression he likes nature very much but he doesn't know the difference between a juniper and a poplar.
I think he struggles sometimes with understanding how I feel as a woman. Sometimes I have to tell him he's off-base and redirect him. Lately, I have been somewhat puzzled because he has been asking about our relationship in relation to other relationships I have with men -- asking about their differences, also asking about differences between our relationship and a previous relationship I had with a female therapist. I would like to know what he's getting at. In my most paranoid moments, I wonder whether he's trying to get rid of me.
There really is no difference re gender, except for my earlier mention about not quite understanding some aspects of how it feels to be a woman, which I will bring up this week. Otherwise, he is extremely perceptive and I greatly value his observations. We are in our third year of therapy.
It is becoming apparent that I seem to have problems with people close to me (such as my dad and my ex-husband) and having to depend upon them for things because they have let me down in important circumstances. So for the most part, I don't depend on men - or anyone, for that matter. I have made it my business to know how to do a lot of things: I changed a zone valve motor on my boiler a few weeks ago, changed the oil, air filter and spark plug on my lawn mower last week. I know how to weld and soldier, glaze windows, paint and varnish, use power tools but especially saws, I know a ton about house renovation and a fair amount about woodworking, etc.) What gets me irritated is not being able to do some of the heavy physical or involved mechanical work and having to depend on someone else to do it. (Another example: I've been waiting for more than a year for my dad to clean the carburetor in a truck I have that I want to sell, and now he's lost the new diaphragm so I have to get another one.) What especially pisses me off are condescending attitudes and sexist stereotypes I run into from men out in public (especially in places like hardware stores and car repair shops). I don't see those at all in my therapist.
So we have discussed our relationship in this way. I figure I could have seen a woman or a man as a therapist. I pay him for his expertise, which frankly I know little about, but it's expertise both genders can have.
I would be interested to know his age, background, and hobbies, but I get the impression that it's not a topic of conversation and he'd tell me if it were relevant.
I know there's transference, and expect there's countertransference but don't know the nature of it. I try hard not to have a crush on him. If I ever have feelings that veer in that direction, they evaporate immediately as soon as we get to work. In the end, I'm glad I don't know much about him because it makes it easier to get down to the business at hand.
I would be interested to hear from others who have therapists of a different gender. Are they able to understand how you feel in the gender you are?
Posted by Janet on May 14, 2000, at 19:03:01
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by allisonm on May 14, 2000, at 18:11:36
I had a male pdoc. that stated on my first visit, that he was not my friend, he was my doctor, and that his personal life did not pertain to my therapy. It frustrated me at first to not know anything about him. But as I look back now, I respect that. I thought I needed to know stuff about him so I could feel comfortable enough to share my problems but I now feel he was right. I've gone to several doctors since then and now feel comfortable sharing with therapists out of respect for their field until they do something that causes me to not want to express myself to them anymore.
Posted by Sara T on May 14, 2000, at 23:23:09
In reply to How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Kay on May 12, 2000, at 15:47:06
>
Wow!! Is this a great thread. I never thought I'd see this being discussed. But I'm so glad.I see a female therapist, and a male pdoc. The female therapist I do happen to know quite abit about as I have known her for many years now and also have known her outside of her therapist role, although not necessarily as a friend. It doesn't seem to bother me. I like knowing something about her because I want a flesh and blood person hearing me out. But on the other hand, I've never been all that interested in finding out more about the docs or therapists I've dealt with.
I can say that I have had therapists who didn't interact with me much and those were the ones I quit very quickly.
Now, transferrance is something that I've only experienced very strongly with another female therapist in my past and I couldn't help seeing her as my mother. But recently I had an experience with a psychologist that I took my son to see. This particular man was very clinical from the outset and I wasn't really bowled over by his charm. But he's nice enough and well qualified and seemed to be sincerely interested in my son. One time, he and I were discussing some behavior charts I was making up for my son and we found ourselves getting into the subject of creating these charts and suddenly I felt like we had connected. It was a "moment" we shared, I think. It was for me, and I think it was for him, but I'll never know that.
Anyway, I left there with the biggest crush on him and that's never happened to me before. I felt embarrassed, like I was totally transparent. And I knew that it was not appropriate so I went to my therapist and talked it over with her. Impulse control is not my forte, so I wanted her to be my mother and tell me what an unwise thing it would be to become involved with this man. She obliged me and although I still had a crush on the man I decided that I would continue to work with him on my son's issues. I did so because of his particular expertise, and I decided to do my best to stuff my feelings.
Interesting how powerful transferrance feelings can be. I couldn't understand why I felt so strongly towards a man who wasn't all that attractive physically, who came off as rather clinical and distant and about whom I know nothing. But my therapist pointed out that he and I had indeed shared an intimate moment in working with my child. I guess that I am just lonely enough (my marriage has not been intimate in awhile) to make me vulnerable.
I don't see this fellow much. In fact, I learned that he is no longer on my insurance. But he recently agreed to do some retesting on my son. during those sessions he seemed to be making an effort to put distance between himself and myself. It made me feel uncomfortable and angry. I kind of felt like he wanted to be rid of us and like bad pennies, we keep showing up. Was that him not handling the whole transferrance/countertransferrance thing well?
I think I would have felt better if we had both acknowledged that shared "moment" and then reestablished boundaries. Can that be done?I think at this point we might be better off going on to another person, esp. since he's not on my HMO anymore.
I've never really liked going to see male therapists, and this experience will probably steer me away from them even more. I don't trust males as much anyway, so I'm not as open with them. I even feel wierd talking to my pdoc about hormone treatments I take.
But, I will take that "moment" and own it, in my own heart, as a nice thing that happened, nothing more. I hope he does the same.
Sorry for the ramble, I needed to let this out.
Sara T
Posted by Kay on May 15, 2000, at 1:30:26
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ..., posted by Noa on May 13, 2000, at 12:58:42
> I think there is room for different styles.
Reading all the responses (thanx, guys) has helped me realize there's no one way the therapeutic relationship should be approached.
>
>But Kay is clearly uncomfortable with how this therapy has started out.Good point--I guess if I were totally comfortable with this, I probably wouldn't have asked the question.
>
>A question I have is whether the therapist, in picking up on your discomfort in opening up and beginning to discuss feelings, has "accidentally" stepped into a role with you that might be played by someone else in your life, or that your wish someone would.Ohhh, that is a really good point. I have NO friends who are geographically close, so really no ongoing social relationships in which to exchange the kind of chit-chat which my sessions most often seem to consist of.
>
> I think the best course of action is to tell your therapist what you told us: that you are having unsettled feelings about how much she is disclosing to you, and that even though it feels safe to not have to go into your own difficult business yet, you have a sense that she should be helping you do that, rather than colluding with you to avoid it. If she is a therapist with any modicum of competence, she will handle this with poise, and be able to own her role in this dynamic.Just thinking about being that assertive gives me a panic attack. Although he has helped me with some situations that were causing me social anxiety by providing me with exactly the words to say (as you did).
>
> Another thought is to have a consultation with another therapist, with or without your current therapist's knowledge. This might allow you to see another therapist's style, to compare them and ask yourself about what it feels like to be with each of them, but also might be helpful in guiding you and your current therapist out of what seems to you to be an unproductive path and onto a better one.Crud. Panic attack again. Have to be assertive AND talk to somebody I don't know. But I also have a tendency to tell my therapist, "I can't possibly do that," and then somehow go ahead and do it.
>
> BTW, in answer to your question, I know some things about my therapist, but not a lot of things. Some of the things I learned during a period when his wife was dying of cancer, and after her death, and it affected our meeting times, etc. Over the years, I have occasionally asked some questions, and while he has answered some, we have also explored the effects of whether he answers or not on how I feel in therapy.
Very few of the things I know are in response to questions which I have directly asked. I mean, if he said his dad lived in Montana I might say, "Oh, where in Montana--I lived there for 10 years?" But I wouldn't just say, "Where does your dad live?"Transference isn't a problem--I guess I know him too well to think our interests match. And he hasn't helped me so *tremendously* that I'm in love with him out of awe and gratitude.
As someone else (bob?) mentioned, maybe I'm just not quite ready to change. But I've been seeing him over a year and am frustrated with how little progress I've made.
>
> Good luck and keep us posted.Thanks, I will
Kay
Posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 10:23:39
In reply to Re: How Well Do You Know Your Therapist?, posted by Adam on May 14, 2000, at 17:55:41
> The best therapist I ever had was Charles Mansueto, PhD, who treated me for OCD
He was most of all creative.I read an article about Mansueto several years ago, in the Post magazine, featuring his work with an adolescent girl with obsessions of death. He certainly WAS creative! He had her do increasingly intense work to take the power out of the topic of death, even looking at all manner of morbid stuff, and trips to the cemetary, etc. Apparently, it worked well.
Posted by Alan on May 15, 2000, at 10:27:44
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ..., posted by Cindy W on May 13, 2000, at 10:56:38
> Bob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
*************************************
Cindy,
How do you get past or a handle on the "crush" part anyway? In my post above I described how it led to my female psychopharmacologist suggesting that I see someone else until I worked through that issue (I had disclosed to her my feelings after about a year).
Do you believe that she and I should have explored that issue rather than her suggesting that I work through it with my talk therapist?
Anyway, I see from this thread that this is more of a common problem than I thought.
I was at the time trying frantically to find info. on transference from every book at the bookstores but they all seemed to be so clinical in their discussion of transference. I wonder if there is a good book that discusses this subject in depth???
By the way your post was most informative to me and the "grist for the mill" concept made sense to me - that is what prompted me to respond to your post.
Thanks
Alan
****************************
Posted by bob on May 15, 2000, at 15:22:37
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Alan on May 15, 2000, at 10:27:44
Here's an alternative hypothesis for you:
Given the tendency of people to "fill in the blanks" when we do not know all the information we need, perhaps maintaining too great a social distance between patient and therapist actually FOSTERS the development of a crush. Afterall, given their positions they're going to be someone who has what evolutionary psychologists might describe as "high mate value" ... then all you really get to know about them is that they are there to help you with your worst problems, and you find yourself able to trust them and tell them things you have never told anyone else. Who wouldn't be interested in finding out more about such a person, and who wouldn't fill in the blanks about what this person's life outside the office might be like?
just a thought...
bob
Posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 17:15:13
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by Alan on May 15, 2000, at 10:27:44
Alan, I bet there is one of those "Idiot's Guides" on Therapy out there, and that it would say something about transference crushes, etc. Just a guess.
Posted by allisonm on May 15, 2000, at 17:46:06
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Alan, posted by Noa on May 15, 2000, at 17:15:13
Alan,
There is a relatively new book out called "The Power of Feelings" by Nancy Chodorow, Yale Press. It gets into transference and countertransference, but it's a difficult read.And then there's this, from "A Guided Tour of The Collected Works of C.G. Jung" by Robert Hopcke:
Transference/countertransference
Jung's idea of transference within the analytic relationship was similar to Freud's, with several important differences based on Jung's ideas about the psychhe. While Jung agreed with Freud that the phenomenon of transference consisted of thoughts, feelings, and fantasies from another relationship, usually in the past, being reexperienced wihhtin a present relationship, Jung differed from Freud in seeing that a transferencce may not be based solely on material from the personal unconscious but may contain striking archetypal elements as well. One may have a father ransference to an analyst that goes beyond anything thhe patiient ever experienced with his or her own father, experiencing the analyst as a larger-than-life, perhaps even mythically idealized figure, an experience most apppropriately called an archetypal transference.Though both Freud and Jung shared the view that transfference was an ever present element of every relationship, Freud viewed transference and its analytic counterpart, countertransference, as a largely pathological occurrence between people -- inappropriate, irrational, lacking reality orientation. For this reason, Freud saw transference within the analytic relationship as a mattter for constant, focused exploration between analyst and patient until, ideally, the whole of the transference had been made conscious, worked through, and ultimately resolved.
Jung, however, viewing the psyche as a naturally occurring phenomenon, removed transference/countertransference
fom the realm of psychopathology, seeing it as a natural occurence, perhaps unavoidable and at times even helpful. Fro these reaons, he differed sharply with psychoanalysis, holding the view that the real relationship between analyst and patient was potentially much more dcuurative than the rtransference relatinship and that the lack of t ransference was actually a positice factor in the analytic relationship. Further, Jung saw the transference of personal or archetypal material onto the person of the analyst as something to be understoon but not necessarily resolved. Within Jungian analysis, therefore, the transference and countertransference relationship is often asknowledged and esplored without becoming the sole focus of treatment. Indeed, as one can see in light of Jung's theory of the collecttive unconscious, resolution of the transference would mean making conscious the vast ocean of collective human experience -- a manifest impossibility. Jung worked to make conscious the wholeness that the unconscious transference/countertransference relationshhip represents, thereby hoping to bring into awareness the deep levels of existence that the patient experiences and reexperiences within the analytic relationship.To explicate his transformational view of the transference/countertransference relationship within analysis, Jung used the symbolism of the alchemical process, a precess of changing base metals into gold which he alchemists of the Middle Ages believed to be literally possible buut which Jung saw as a projection of an inner, psychic process onto external, material reality. The point of the analytic process, for Jung, was to change the base metals of unexamined, projected experience into the gold of a more unified, personally integrated experieence, not simply to rresolve the transference on the level of thr personal unconscious. Jung's definitive and highhly influential study of alchemical symbolism as it pertains to transference within analysis, "The Psychology of the Transference," in its pictorial andd symbolic richness could not be more unlike typically Freudian psychoanalytic treatments of the topic.
Ammong Jungian analysit, a wide range of opinion exists on the place of transfference/countertransference iin analysis. Some analysts make transference analysis the centerpiece of analytic work, particularly the so-called London School of Jungian analysts following Michael Fordham's lead, while others follow Jung's own opinions more closely and relattivize the place of transference analysis in psychothherapy. The secondary sources in the readings list (below) show the variation in how transference is conceived of and handled therepeutically by contemporary analysts.
The readings lists begins with Jung's ideas on transference during his period of association with Freudian psychoanalysis, followed by an article that gives Jung's more typical view of transference. Jung's most important work, "The Psychology of the transference," is suuggested under "To Go Deeper," since the rreader may wishh to become more acquainted with Jung's psychological studies of alchemy before delving into this unusual piece of Jung's writing.
Pardon my typos. I'm late for a class. I can add the reading list later. Hope this helps.
Posted by bob on May 15, 2000, at 20:10:24
In reply to Transference for Alan, posted by allisonm on May 15, 2000, at 17:46:06
Wow allison! Thanks for typing all of that in. I think the distinction between the Freudian and Jungian notions of transferrance are quite enlightening wrt the sort of mindset with which one approaches therapy.
cheers,
bob[pssssst!! Hey Noa! If there ain't one of those idiot's books, how about getting some folks together and writing one? ... not that we're, um, idiots ... after all, it's "for Idiots" or "for Dummies",
not "by Dummies" ... ;^)]
Posted by Tom on May 15, 2000, at 20:59:04
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ..., posted by Cindy W on May 13, 2000, at 10:56:38
> I've been in therapy for 3 1/2 years with two different men. I found my first therapist to be fairly effective, but I'm starting to feel the therapist I see now (also my M.D./PDoc) is just a waste of my time. I'm comtemplating switching to another therapist. My question is, does anyone think a man who has been stuffing his feelings in his entire life (me) might be better off seeing a female therapist? I've begun to notice with my current that I still hold back, feeling like I can't open up in front of a man. My family members have mentioned to me that perhaps I should see a woman instead. They know my situation is driven by apprehension to deal with painful feelings that I can't come to grips with. I'm beginning to agree with them...
Posted by Alan on May 15, 2000, at 21:43:33
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ...To Cindy W, posted by bob on May 15, 2000, at 15:22:37
> Here's an alternative hypothesis for you:
>
> Given the tendency of people to "fill in the blanks" when we do not know all the information we need, perhaps maintaining too great a social distance between patient and therapist actually FOSTERS the development of a crush. Afterall, given their positions they're going to be someone who has what evolutionary psychologists might describe as "high mate value" ... then all you really get to know about them is that they are there to help you with your worst problems, and you find yourself able to trust them and tell them things you have never told anyone else. Who wouldn't be interested in finding out more about such a person, and who wouldn't fill in the blanks about what this person's life outside the office might be like?
>
> just a thought...
> bob
*********************
Yeah, I see what you mean but she didn't make herself that socialy distant, that's the problem.
She came to my professional presentations, etc. so
I was very surprised. I like your point though.
Thanks
Alan
***********************
Posted by Alan on May 15, 2000, at 21:50:02
In reply to Re: I beg to differ ..., posted by Cindy W on May 13, 2000, at 10:56:38
> Bob, I think the therapist needs to be someone the client doesn't know very well. As a psychologist and also a person in therapy, I find I do not know much about my therapist, except that he is very warm and caring; unfortunately, this makes me put him on a pedestal and I have a "crush" on him. On the plus side, my transference feelings are "grist for the mill" of therapy, since undoubtedly I relate to him in many of the same ways I relate to others in my life, and if I ever have the nerve to talk about all that with him, will be able to understand and change what I do. From what I have read, the therapeutic relationship is the main factor in client change; whether the therapist is warm, authentic and caring makes more difference than whatever theories or techniques the therapist uses. The client changes when he/she is ready to change and feels sufficiently emotionally supported to change habitual ways of feeling and acting. As a cognitive behaviorist, I find it amusing that in my own therapy, I want more of an analytic, dynamic type therapy! However, I think if I knew my therapist too well, as a friend or lover, neither of us could be objective enough to be honest (friends and lovers always have a hidden agenda, of meeting their own needs). Therefore, as a therapist, I believe that the therapist should not disclose too many personal details (since I work in a prison, disclosing personal information is forbidden and can even be dangerous). All this is my two cents worth...but I still am in love with my therapist!
************
I hope that you haven't taken a vacation or something neat like that..
Did you see my post to you earlier today? I hope so. You have such keen insights on this subject it seems - maybe due to the fact that you are a psychologist...I don't know.
Alan
******************
Alan
*************************
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