Psycho-Babble Medication Thread 10560

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Re: SAMe

Posted by Andrew on August 23, 1999, at 16:29:41

In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by JohnL on August 23, 1999, at 16:06:28

How fast is relief noticeable when taken "during
a difficult time"?

 

Re: SAMe

Posted by yardena on August 23, 1999, at 21:49:43

In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by Andrew on August 23, 1999, at 16:29:41

What is it? What is it made from? How does it work?

 

Re: SAMe

Posted by gail on August 24, 1999, at 0:03:57

In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by yardena on August 23, 1999, at 21:49:43

> What is it? What is it made from? How does it work?

Can it be used with Celexa?

 

Re: SAMe

Posted by JohnL on August 24, 1999, at 4:22:48

In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by gail on August 24, 1999, at 0:03:57

Hi all. Here is my attempt at some answers to your questions. For me, SAMe has some energizing effect on the first day, but seems to make a more substantial difference during a difficult time on about day 3.

It is a natural body compound reproduced synthetically in pill form to increase body levels of it. It is an important chemical in nearly all body functions, especially brain function, liver function, and healing. It basically supplies donar molecules needed for all kinds of natural body chemical reactions to take place. I'm not sure it's mechanism in depression is known, but theory says it boosts neurotransmitter production and repair. It has been used in Europe a long time and is popular there. Lots of research studies on its effectiveness and safety.

Yes it can be taken with Celexa, or any AD, except perhaps the MAOIs. Not sure about the MAOIs. The only risk I've read about is possible mania, but that risk is present with just about anything. Theoretically it may help the SSRI or TCA work better and faster, possibly allowing a lower dose. I find its only drawback is the cost. About $1.00 a pill, with 4 to 8 pills needed per day on empty stomach. If mixed with food, it is broken down before being absorbed in the body.

For me, it definitely helps the Prozac work better, but again, nothing magical, just helpful. If it wasn't so darn expensive I'ld take more of it. I do support its use for quick relief. I don't think it will cure a depression, but it lifts one at least halfway out of the hole very fast. Like anything else, it is statistically helpful in about 70% of those who try it. Hope this helps. JohnL.

 

Re: SAMe

Posted by LKP on August 24, 1999, at 11:34:42

In reply to SAMe, posted by Tom on August 23, 1999, at 12:29:35

Hi Tom:
I too have been taking SAMe (400 mg/day) along with my antidepressant and feel much better. As someone else mentioned, it has to be taken on an empty stomach and it is helpful to add 800 mcg of folic acid, 1000 mcg of B-12 and 100 mg of B-6. I called 1-800-276-2878 (Nature Made#) and they were very helpful. Good Luck!

 

Re: SAMe -- Some excerpts from an article in...

Posted by dj on August 24, 1999, at 12:23:50

In reply to SAMe, posted by Tom on August 23, 1999, at 12:29:35

today's Globe & Mail (Canada's National Newspaper) which focused mostly on SAMe and its reputed effects for arthritis:

"...An amino acid derivative, SAMe is said to be at the centre of a major biological activity called methylation, which helps keep connective tissue in the joints supple. It is also believed to make neurotransmission (communication between nerve cells) more responsive, helping to alleviate the symptoms of depression.

SAMe stands for s-adenoyslmethionine. It is a derivative of methionine, one of the 22 amino acids that our bodies use to function healthily. We produce SAMe on our own all the time. The SAMe molecule contains a lot of methyl, which it exchanges with other molecules in a fundamental biological activity called methylation. As we age, the outer lipid layer of our cells hardens, but methylation keeps that layer supple, so we need a constant supply of methyl donors -- of which SAMe is one of the most active -- to help stanch cellular aging. That's the theory, anyway.

After SAMe donates its methyl group, it breaks down into homocysteine, a toxic agent that is linked to heart disease. If we have sufficient amounts of B vitamins (B12, B6 and folic acid) that's not a problem, because they "re-methylate" the homocysteine back into methionine. If we top up the levels of SAMe in our body, then the extra SAMe may also help recycle some of its own homocysteine byproducts into a helpful antioxidant. All of this, according to SAMe's supporters, has far-reaching healthful effects.

"It increases fluidity of the joints for people with arthritis," says Caroll Reider, the manager of consumer education for Pharmavite Inc. of Mission Hills, Calif. The company makes the Nature-Made brand of SAMe that has been on the shelves of some Canadian health-food stores for more than a month.

The reported results on SAMe leave some experts lukewarm to its purported efficacy. Most of the research used to support SAMe's benefits comes from studies done in Europe, where the supplement has been used for decades and is generally delivered intravenously. North Americans take SAMe as a pill, and the two are not the same.

"Looking at the existing summaries of data, it appears to me that this stuff is good for some people when it comes to pain," said Dr. Joseph Houpt, a consultant rheumatologist with the Kings Health Centre in Toronto. "But I am not impressed by the data. I remain to be convinced."..."

http://www.globeandmail.com/gam/Health/19990824/HE24SAME.html

> Anyone having success with SAMe?

 

Re: SAMe

Posted by Tom on August 24, 1999, at 12:28:09

In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by LKP on August 24, 1999, at 11:34:42

> Hi Tom:
> I too have been taking SAMe (400 mg/day) along with my antidepressant and feel much better. As someone else mentioned, it has to be taken on an empty stomach and it is helpful to add 800 mcg of folic acid, 1000 mcg of B-12 and 100 mg of B-6. I called 1-800-276-2878 (Nature Made#) and they were very helpful. Good Luck!

LKP,

Was your antidepressant not working? Or was it just enhanced by the SAMe? I have failed repeatedly on different meds, but I'm wondering if I should keep increasing the SAMe (And risk going broke!), or try a relatively low dose of an AD and keep taking the SAMe at my present dose. If the SAMe wasn't priced in the stratosphere it would be a no brainer. P.S. I am taking a multi B with folic acid.

 

Re: More on SAMe

Posted by dj on August 25, 1999, at 10:24:03

In reply to SAMe, posted by Tom on August 23, 1999, at 12:29:35

from today's National Post -- Canada's other national newspaper from an article written by:
Dr.Norman Doidge who is a research psychiatrist and psychoanalyst -- whoo-ee...

"... If these claims strain credulity, one might first take note of who is making them before being dismissive.

The source is Dr. Richard Brown, a senior psychiatrist associated with Columbia University in New York. When Dick Brown makes a claim, it is foolish not to listen. He is a psychopharmacologist -- a subspecialist in psychiatry -- who deals with "refractory depressions" -- depressions that don't respond to any of the usual medications. For years he has been the consultant that my closest New York colleagues turn to with their most challenging cases. This is not the first time he has stuck his neck out for a medication. About 25 years ago, he was one of the first to recommend -- to a skeptical medical audience -- the psychiatric use of Valproic Acid, a drug now recognized as a lifesaver for certain kinds of manic depression.

The son of a U.S. military man, Brown spent a lot of his childhood in Europe and, interested in plant chemistry, became familiar with European supplements. In the past five years, he has used SAM-e to treat hundreds of patients, including those who didn't respond to other medications, with excellent results. It can also be added to standard antidepressants that are only partially working.

Thirty-nine high-quality, "controlled" studies of its use have been published in major journals and show it is effective in 70% of cases. Even 30% of refractory depressives respond.

...Like standard antidepressants, SAM-e boosts three key chemical messengers in the brain: serotonin, norepinephrine and dopamine. But it does so by a different mechanism, by reacting with DNA to allow our genes to spring into action. It is probably because our bodies produce it that it has so few side effects.

...But Brown is big on the self-prescribing of SAM-e for milder or medium severity depressions, because most depressed people never end up seeing a clinician. And, since quality control for over-the-counter supplements varies widely, he recommends Nature Made brand, from Italy, which is available at U.S. General Nutrition Center stores and even supermarkets.

But, he notes, caution is warranted. As with any antidepressant, if one has a manic-depressive illness, using SAM-e could trigger a serious manic high; if prone to panic, then panic attacks. If one is suicidal, professional help is always warranted..."

http://www.nationalpost.com

 

Re: SAMe

Posted by dj on August 25, 1999, at 17:36:19

In reply to SAMe, posted by Tom on August 23, 1999, at 12:29:35

Andrewb wrote in another exchange:

> I take TMG (trimethylglycine), an inexpensive supplement that is converted into SAMe. I take this supplement with vitamin B-12. This is a cheap way to get the various benefits of SAMe.

Anyone else have any experience with or knowledge of TMG and its effects???

> Anyone having success with SAMe?... Afraid I'm going to go broke in order to get to a dose that works for me. By the way... absolutely no side effects.

 

Re: TMG as a SAMe substitute stimulant?? & 5HTP..

Posted by dj on August 25, 1999, at 20:56:06

In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by dj on August 25, 1999, at 17:36:19

Further to my previous post found the following, though still VERY keen to hear about anyone's experience with TMG. BTW, also an interesting link on 5HTP from the following url:
http://lef.org/magazine/hotlines2.html

"Trimethylglycine (TMG) is the most effective methylation enhancing agent known. ...TMG converts toxic homocysteine into methionine and SAMe...

There are no reports of side effects with TMG other than brief muscle tension headaches if it is taken in large quantities without food.

Fortunately, the cost of 99% pure trimethylglycine is low, ...

A minimum effective dose of TMG for homocysteine reduction is 500- 1,000 mg a day. Optimal doses for methylation enhancement and SAMe elevation are about 3,000 mg a day. In some studies, 6,000 mg a day of TMG were used...

We suggest that most people start off with 500 to 1,000 mg of TMG a day with food and work up to 3,000 mg a day.

If you suffer from diagnosed clinical depression, you should seek the advice of your physician if you are going to attempt to discontinue your antidepressant perscription medication in order to try either TMG of SAMe. You should be especially careful if you suffer from severe depression or bipolar manic-depression. Once you start taking TMG, it will probably take several weeks before you see results within four weeks, you should consider increasing the dosage of TMG to 5,000-to-6,000 mg a day.

If you suffer from acute liver failure, consider taking 5,000-to-6,000 mg a day immediately with the cooperation of your physician.

The basis for suggesting TMG as a treatment for depression and liver disease is that it is inexpensive, nontoxic therapy that has been demonstrated to raise SAMe levels significantly, and because SAMe has been documented to be highly effective for both depression and liver disease. Right now, there is no direct evidence that TMG is an effective treatment for either depression or liver disease. SAMe, on the other hand, is effective for both conditions, but is quite expensive."

http://lef.org/magazine/hotlines3.html

"Here's why 5-HT will not work for most Americans and could be lethal to some people: The blood-brain barrier does not allow signficant absorption of serotonin from the blood. The brain does have a large neutral amino acid pump that freely allows tryptophan and 5-HT into the brain for conversion into seratonin.

The process by which 5-HT is converted into serotonin is called decarboxylation. If decarboxylation occurs before 5-HT absorbed by the brain, then blood levels of serotonin will elevate significantly, but very little serotonin will enter the brain.

When Europeans take 5-HT, they are often prescribed the dopa decarboxylase inhibitor carbidopa that prevents 5-HT from being converted into serotonin until it reaches the brain. Americans do not take carbidopa with 5-HT and the result is possible serotonin overload in the blood, with virtully no serotonin reaching the brain....

Based upon Dr. Harris' report, the Foundation had its analysts conduct an extensive review of the medical literature and have come to the following preliminary conclusions:

1.For 5-HT to boost serotonin levels in the brain it is necessary to:

a) Take 50 mg of carbidopa before each 5-HT dose. Carbidopa is a prescription drug.


b) Limit vitamin B6 supplementation to a small dose taken at least before or after 5-HT/carbidopa dosing.


c) Have a urinary test to metabolite of serotonin called 5-hydroxy indoleacetic acid (5-HIAA) regular basis. As long as 5HIAA levels are normal, than 5-HT intake would be safe.

2.Those with existing cardiovascular disease, including atrial fibrillation, coronary artery disease, congestive heart failure, cardiomyopathy, valvular disease or pulmonary hypertension want to avoid 5-HT completely. One Foundation analyst felt that 81 mg of aspirin and 500 mg a day of magnesium would reduce the risk of 5-HT inducing a heart attack.

3.The effects of 5-HT by itself elevating blood serotonin are extremely individualistic. Some people may not experience any blood serotonin increase, while others could suffer from lethal serotonin peripheral overload.

4.Despite the potential dangers of 5-HT, most FDA-approved drugs to treat depression and obesity appear to be more toxic.

5.At the time of this printing, we have not been able to verify whether 5-HT serotonin overload would cause fibrosis of the aortic valve and destruction of the heart muscle.

> Andrewb wrote in another exchange:
>
> > I take TMG (trimethylglycine), an inexpensive supplement that is converted into SAMe. I take this supplement with vitamin B-12. This is a cheap way to get the various benefits of SAMe...

This warning applies only to 5-hydroxy tryptophan (5-HT), not tryptophan itself. Published studies show that tryptophan does not readily convert into serotonin blood, but that 5-HT does, since 5-HT convert directly into serotonin tryptophan has to go through one additional metabolic step which protects against serotonin overload."

>
> Anyone else have any experience with or knowledge of TMG and its effects???
>
> > Anyone having success with SAMe?... Afraid I'm going to go broke in order to get to a dose that works for me. By the way... absolutely no side effects.

 

DJ, thanks for the great info.

Posted by andrewb on August 26, 1999, at 0:46:40

In reply to Re: TMG as a SAMe substitute stimulant?? & 5HTP.., posted by dj on August 25, 1999, at 20:56:06

DJ,
Thanks for the great info.!

 

Re: DJ, thanks for the great info.

Posted by dj on August 26, 1999, at 11:20:30

In reply to DJ, thanks for the great info., posted by andrewb on August 26, 1999, at 0:46:40

Thank you Andrew, for providing me some initial info. on alternatives to consider.

> DJ,
> Thanks for the great info.!

 

Re: Update ib SAMe

Posted by Tom on August 31, 1999, at 20:47:18

In reply to Re: DJ, thanks for the great info., posted by dj on August 26, 1999, at 11:20:30

Well...I'm going for broke. Increased my dosage to 800mgs a day (4 pills @ $1 per pill). SAMe is definitely helping, with no (none!) side effects, but I'm afraid I'm one of the people that's noted in the literature that needs upwards of 1600mgs a day. I'm just finishing my third week (raised my dosage today to 800mgs). Is anyone else trying SAMe?

 

Re: Update on SAMe

Posted by Tom on August 31, 1999, at 20:52:37

In reply to Re: Update ib SAMe, posted by Tom on August 31, 1999, at 20:47:18

> Well...I'm going for broke. Increased my dosage to 800mgs a day (4 pills @ $1 per pill). SAMe is definitely helping, with no (none!) side effects, but I'm afraid I'm one of the people that's noted in the literature that needs upwards of 1600mgs a day. I'm just finishing my third week (raised my dosage today to 800mgs). Is anyone else trying SAMe?

That header should have said Update on SAMe. Did not intend to give a cryptic message about SAMe.

 

Re: Update on SAMe

Posted by Bruce on September 1, 1999, at 14:27:36

In reply to Re: Update on SAMe, posted by Tom on August 31, 1999, at 20:52:37

I am on 400 mg/day of SAMe. Side effects are mild dry throat, and mild constipation. 6 weeks ago I had to stop, as I developed a rash (at the time I was also taking 200-400 mg/day of Phophatidylserine as well). I dropped everything, waited 3 weeks, and started up again after the rash disappeared. It seems it was the *combo* of SAMe and PS that caused the rash, not either one in particular.

It does seem to help, I must say. I hear you on the cost issue, but think of it like this: you'd pay $4-8 a day for meals, right? Think of SAMe as a meal you cannot do without.

 

Re: Update on SAMe

Posted by JohnL on September 1, 1999, at 17:05:07

In reply to Re: Update on SAMe, posted by Bruce on September 1, 1999, at 14:27:36

The cost of SAMe keeps me in an on/off mode. I take 800mg or more and notice improvement. But then it's time to spend another $20 and it hasn't even been a week yet. So I put it off. Then I notice a subtle slumping of mood which convinces me to spend that $20. And then the cycle starts all over again. There are only two side effects for me...volumous gas and an empty wallet. I must say it helps the Prozac and I don't think it's my imagination. But the damn high price...!

 

Re: SAMe

Posted by LKP on September 1, 1999, at 18:30:52

In reply to Re: SAMe, posted by Tom on August 24, 1999, at 12:28:09


Tom,
I've taken several different antidepressants and am currently on Wellbutrin SR but it wasn't quite doing the job (150mg 2X/day). I do think that the Sam-e helps. Check your multi-vitamins and B-Complex. I was taking the same vitamins until I checked and was only getting 100 mcg of B-12 and it is suggested that you take 1000 mcg (can be bought in this strength so that you only take one vitamin instead of 10!) I am going to my doctor on Friday to look changing from Wellbutrin SR to something else. My main symptom is extreme lightheadedness primarly due to stress/anxiety. I hope this info helps - keep me posted.

 

Re: Update on SAMe (cost)

Posted by Tom on September 2, 1999, at 12:02:41

In reply to Re: Update on SAMe, posted by JohnL on September 1, 1999, at 17:05:07

> The cost of SAMe keeps me in an on/off mode. I take 800mg or more and notice improvement. But then it's time to spend another $20 and it hasn't even been a week yet. So I put it off. Then I notice a subtle slumping of mood which convinces me to spend that $20. And then the cycle starts all over again. There are only two side effects for me...volumous gas and an empty wallet. I must say it helps the Prozac and I don't think it's my imagination. But the damn high price...!

I get SAMe at BJ's Wholesale Club; 60 pills for $45. I also have seen them for the same price at Costco. I know Walmart sell them 20 pills for $ 20. Hey, every little bit helps.

 

Re: Update on SAMe (cost)

Posted by Kim on September 3, 1999, at 0:59:47

In reply to Re: Update on SAMe (cost), posted by Tom on September 2, 1999, at 12:02:41

There's a website that lists prices of several sources of SAMe (watch out for that asterisk, though!) Kim
http://www.same-priceinfo.com/

 

Re: Update on SAMe - To JohnL

Posted by Tom on September 3, 1999, at 12:09:58

In reply to Re: Update on SAMe, posted by JohnL on September 1, 1999, at 17:05:07

> The cost of SAMe keeps me in an on/off mode. I take 800mg or more and notice improvement. But then it's time to spend another $20 and it hasn't even been a week yet. So I put it off. Then I notice a subtle slumping of mood which convinces me to spend that $20. And then the cycle starts all over again. There are only two side effects for me...volumous gas and an empty wallet. I must say it helps the Prozac and I don't think it's my imagination. But the damn high price...!

John,

How much Prozac are you taking? Was it working before you added the SAMe? Did SAMe allow you to reduce your Prozac dosage? Did it also help with a reduction in side effects? That's alot of questions, but I'm stuck on the fence. I've tried numerous ADs, with little response, or sometimes with a serious adverse reaction. So you can say I'm gun shy. My Pdoc prescribed desimpramine (I haven't tried TCAs), but I still haven't taken it yet. My experience with meds has been confined to the newer generation of meds (prozac, wellbutrin, effexor, etc) , which I would say covers all of the new medications which are "structurally different"than other meds, as pharm companies like to say. I'm very undecided about adding desimpramine to SAMe, even though the desimpramine dosage would be miniscual. SAMe has given me about 40-50% relief from my symptoms (my symptoms are classified as major depression). But I'm shooting for more.

Tom

 

Re: Update on SAMe - To JohnL

Posted by JohnL on September 3, 1999, at 12:41:33

In reply to Re: Update on SAMe - To JohnL, posted by Tom on September 3, 1999, at 12:09:58

Tom, I hear ya on the frustration. Here are answers to your questions. Prozac 20mg. Was sort-of working before SAMe, but seems to work a lot better with it. I haven't reduced dosage, but I think SAMe prevents me from needing a higher dose. Side effects are near zero. Not sure of SAMe's role in that. I would not be able to sleep without help from a tiny bit of Remeron though. prozac=insomnia to me. The most amazing thing is I have strong sex drive, and sex is better than ever. My wife says she loves what Prozac has done to me behind closed doors. As you know, that is NOT typical of Prozac. Again though, I'm not sure of SAMe's role. There is nothing wrong with taking SAMe with desiprimine. Or you might try any leftover Prozac or whatever with SAMe and see how that goes. Any of the ones you've already taken can also be augmented with desiprimine. Lots of room for experimentation. I know how tough it is, and I'm right there in the same boat with ya. JohnL.

 

SAMe

Posted by Judy on September 10, 1999, at 11:18:52

In reply to Re: Update on SAMe - To JohnL, posted by JohnL on September 3, 1999, at 12:41:33

How does one pronounce SAMe?

 

Re: SAMe

Posted by dj on September 10, 1999, at 14:36:10

In reply to SAMe, posted by Judy on September 10, 1999, at 11:18:52

> How does one pronounce SAMe?

sammy

 

SAMe at Costco/Price Club

Posted by carrot on September 11, 1999, at 0:51:36

In reply to Re: Update on SAMe, posted by JohnL on September 1, 1999, at 17:05:07

>Have you looked into getting it at Costco (not sure if it has a `t' in it)/Price Club? I heard it's a lot cheaper there.

The cost of SAMe keeps me in an on/off mode. I take 800mg or more and notice improvement. But then it's time to spend another $20 and it hasn't even been a week yet. So I put it off. Then I notice a subtle slumping of mood which convinces me to spend that $20. And then the cycle starts all over again. There are only two side effects for me...volumous gas and an empty wallet. I must say it helps the Prozac and I don't think it's my imagination. But the damn high price...!

 

Re: SAMe at Costco/Price Club

Posted by GT on March 29, 2000, at 22:12:00

In reply to SAMe at Costco/Price Club, posted by carrot on September 11, 1999, at 0:51:36

> >Have you looked into getting it at Costco (not sure if it has a `t' in it)/Price Club? I heard it's a lot cheaper there.
>
> The cost of SAMe keeps me in an on/off mode. I take 800mg or more and notice improvement. But then it's time to spend another $20 and it hasn't even been a week yet. So I put it off. Then I notice a subtle slumping of mood which convinces me to spend that $20. And then the cycle starts all over again. There are only two side effects for me...volumous gas and an empty wallet. I must say it helps the Prozac and I don't think it's my imagination. But the damn high price...!

ABOUT USING SAMe FOR DEPRESSION, AND THE POSSIBILITY YOU COULD BE CURED OF DEPRESSION. AFTER READING EVERYONES COMMENTS ABOUT THE EFFECTS AND COST OF SAMe I FELT COMPELLED TO TELL YOU OF AN EXPERIENCE I KNOW ABOUT. INBRIEF: A PERSON WAS SUFFERING FROM HORRIBLE DEPRESSION FOR WHICH NO DOCTOR OR PHYCHATRIST COULD HELP, THE CURE TURNED OUT TO BE THE PERSON WAS SUFFERING FROM A YEAST INFECTION THAT HAD GOTTEN INTO THE BLOOD STREAM. IT TURNED OUT THAT THIS IS EASIER THAN YOU WOULD THINK POSSIBLE, AND CAN HAPPEN TO ANYBODY, EVEN IF YOU ARE A REALLY HEALTHY PERSON.
SEE THE BOOK CALLED " THE YEAST CONNECTION " IT COULD SAVE YOU A LOT OF MONEY AND YOUR LIFE, IT DID THE PERSON I AM TELLING YOU ABOUT. THEIR DEPRESSION WAS SO SEVER SUISIDE WAS ABOUT THEIR ONLY OPPTION TILL THEY FOUND THIS BOOK AND TOOK THE TREATMENT PRESCRIBED.
LET ME KNOW IF THIS HELPS OR IF YOU HAVE AN OTHER QUESTIONS, THAT I MIGHT BE ABLE TO ANSWER.


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