![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 79. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 27, 2013, at 0:29:20
I was watching this youtube documentary on this guy who does surgery in Cambodia:
2/3 @ 10.20:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3do0GlPtHU
'If I say things nice and quietly they don't always react'
'you don't need these fingers now...'
'they are paying attention to the tone more than what the words are'
'so i've got to change the tone depending on what i want done'if... that mode of communication is no longer accepted... then how do you get people to do things?
do things get done the way they used to - or does less get done now?
i do understand that social skills are about manipulating people into doing what you want them to do in a way that they are grateful / happy to do it (though putting it like that makes me sound like a sociopath). and i get that most people don't like being barked at... but how do you get them to respond quickly to a simple instruction said only once, then?
?
i mean... in a system where selection against those who bark is okay but where selection against those who are incapable of following a simple instruction said once would be wrong, somehow.
?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 27, 2013, at 0:40:18
In reply to Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on July 27, 2013, at 0:29:20
hmm... maybe it is like me trying to do maths. my anxiety prevents my comprehension and i need something to lessen the anxiety before i can function. maybe that is what the looking / smiling is for. to take 30 seconds - 90 seconds to put the person at ease before putting in the request. then build rapport so eventually can be done with a nod or an eyebrow raise or a slight touch. maybe that is it. sigh.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 27, 2013, at 22:59:25
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on July 27, 2013, at 0:40:18
That sounds good to me.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 28, 2013, at 17:39:14
In reply to Re: Social Skills » alexandra_k, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 27, 2013, at 22:59:25
I really like your signature. It cracks me up :-)
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 28, 2013, at 21:55:39
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on July 28, 2013, at 17:39:14
:-)
Thanks
Posted by alexandra_k on August 23, 2013, at 21:08:01
In reply to Re: Social Skills » alexandra_k, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 28, 2013, at 21:55:39
part of the reason why i got such a hard time was that people thought that i was the typical, arrogant, first year. a lot of first years really do seem to have an unreasonably high opinion of their knowledge / abilities. you have students trying to teach / help other students before they even have their first assignments back. and in the gym you have skinny looking dudes who really can't do anything spouting off this and that rubbish about how to get results. people don't seem to have the ability to think about who is giving the message and whether the message is likely to be true or not. i could tell them what i'd been up to and give them my cv and somehow they were still going to make me study for... what... 4 years before getting the opportunity to sit in on graduate student seminars? why should i be patient. if i'm patient the way they want me to be i'll have accomplished less than half of what i would otherwise. i'm sick of people holding me back / making me feel bad for wanting me to be better and faster.
just like the birds... the noisiest, most confident, wins. because it is about popularity / status. not the search for truth. not the acquisition of knowledge.
when you don't have the ability to think critically about what a person is saying (to have a conversation with them and figure how much they are legit vs b*llsh*t yourself) then things like suits become very important. i see that 'dressing for success' is important when you need to impress people who don't have any other way of assessing your legitimacy. put on a white coat and most people will do anything lolz. i suppose philosophy consciously rebels against that. the most senior get to cultivate the hobo look. the more junior / lowly ranked individuals can be distinguished by the cut of their suits lolz. because... what else have they got???
i have been watching more of MadMen. things have picked up again... interesting themes. i know a real life Joan. the guys all say she is a 'perfect woman'. and... she is. in that traditional sense. i think that is a case of wonderful social skils. i admire that, oh yes indeed. it is not me at all. but that takes a hell of a lot of work. i admire that oh yes, indeed. Peggy is great, too. and the whole tension about how to be part of / be competitive in a male dominated environment as a woman. their ad agency is a lot like academic ha. people sleeping in their offices and making progress over drunken lunches. ahaha.
so... first wife (second, actually). went from being sweet to being a cold bitch. now... (season 5)... i don't much like her at all. the actress one... well... quote for my life: 'not every girl can do what she wants. the world can't support that many ballerinas'. i know somebody else said that. but i need to remember it. to suck at your talent... he... gave her the freedom to pursue it, though. that was something. perhaps... freedom can be part of / negotiated within relationships. i don't know. and the other chick... the other partner's wife... divorce... now she gets her own apartment. freedom... i don't know what to say.
Posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2013, at 4:16:12
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on August 23, 2013, at 21:08:01
noone ever saw the little one
people heard her sometimes
her pain is silenceyou know. sometimes this calmness comes over. centered. emotion is felt intensely. but quietly. peacefully. no hysteria. no production. and an attitude comes with. i'm not sure what it is... i'm not sure...
but that is the background for her pain
the screaming came lateri suspect it is the years (and years and years and years) of pain that i used to feel at night
curled up because there was no other way to be
in the mattress that sunk down into the pit in the middle
the alertness for her
in case she got bored and decided to come jolt me from bed
for this or that made up reason
this or that made up excuse
so she could have a yell
release some tension
then get some sleep herself.which is probably why i can't sleep with people moving about the house. especially when there isn't a deadbolt lock on my door.
it has been years now.
but the motor memory of that.
i don't suspect it will ever go away.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 3, 2013, at 19:13:56
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on August 25, 2013, at 4:16:12
and maybe it is not a motor memory... i need to check again but there is some stuff...
the 'default' mode of thought... kind of free associating. dreaming. daydreaming. then effortful thinking as our supervisor comes online and we direct our thinking on logical trains. i forget who... mental time travel... we don't need to act and get the consequences of our acts and learn that way... we can mentally run through different options and different likely outcomes... our ideas can die in our steed.
the default... brain dump. there is something about how relative levels of neurotransmitters globally affect things... the idea of salience. surprise.
i am... at the moment... my supervisory process is weak. external stimuli is high salience. i get the orienting response automatically and it is really hard to refocus... since i quit smoking. maybe... some psych med could help me a little with that...
apparently there is something about levels... that seems to produce the wandering thing (i get stuck in my wanderings) and (get this) a negative affect. that people get this at times around sleeping... something to do with transmitter levels.
so... that is it. sometimes i ruminate on traumatic past. actually... that isn't even true anymore. i hardly ever ruminate on traumatic past anymore. hardly ever. i hardly ever get flashes of hard stuff either. but i do get that mental wandering and negative affect... sounds like... it is normal.
huh.
huh.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2013, at 23:04:39
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on September 3, 2013, at 19:13:56
maybe at some point i'll get inspired to do a proper literature review and sort this stuff out properly...
introversion / extroversion
low stimulus / high stimulus (seeking. need of course to distinguish this from the different idea of impoverished environments - the later distinction doesn't map)
high levels of autonomic arousal / low levels of autonomic arousal
internally motivated / externally motivated
low maintenance / high maintenance (ok, i just threw that one in there)there is a lot of stuff... a lot of pop culture - which complicates things... i suspect i should avoid the pop culture stuff... but i have been influenced by 'quiet - the power of introversion in a world that can't stop talking' and related stuff. even though i haven't read it. there is of course something to it... and to the idea that some people won't do any work unless you are on their backs all the time whereas other people can't do any work unless you leave them alone so they can freaking get on with it.
one idea is there is a difference... different ways of being... i do worry about this thought because it seems dangerous in a sense... but i really do think that the former is a *better* way of being. one that is... selected for, yeah. or not. but only not because it doesn't have a particular genetic basis since it is mostly the result of socialization (so the heritability component is lacking).
creativity and innovation they are putting down as individualist activities. not arising from teams. nice to have a job where you are *trusted* to do your work from anywhere... any country... anyplace you like... especially if you make enough money to put yourself someplace nice...
or not. stay with your group sharing your pumpkins if you like.
i suspect it is more a case of needs must. the loudest voice for collectivism is the voices of those who are incapable of looking after themselves. the old people (of the tribe. hey the old people of my tribe are having trouble adjusting to things like the rights of women, too). the borderline intellectually handicapped. of course that is the answer to hte health care crisis. as it always was: that is womens work. your job is to stay in the tribe and look after the tribe. otherwise you have been *urbanized* we spit on you.
i saw a pic of obama chatting to a girl... 'what a wonderful block tower! you must have worked real hard to build that! let me take some of your blocks and give them to the kids who have been sleeping all day!' that is the fear of welfare cultures... of course the fear of lack of welfare culture is the thought that you 1) might find yourself in the wrong group or 2) that the appropriate attitude is one of pity or empathy or assistance rather than blame. how do we decide? can't vs won't? i don't understand how we decide... no... i don't understand how we *should* decide. because we don't want to encourage / reward them... but we might find ourself in the wrong group...
maybe it is about the possibility of getting out? but then you still have the cases of 'can't'. i suspect most are about 'cant'. it is just that when the crabs panic and start clawing at you when you try and leave that things become harder...
was i a crab for my father?
for sure.
sigh.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2013, at 23:15:05
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2013, at 23:04:39
but that is thought to be different because his inclusive fitness is determined by my successes. which is why your family members (especially older ones) are thought to sacrifice themselves in order to benefit you as you are the part of them that will survive once they are gone... it is actually in their (genes) best interests for them to sacrifice themselves for your benefit...
and something is broken down or f*ck*d right up when that doesn't happen. when familial bonds are about... the kids serving the adults rather than the other way around.
part of the worry about euthenasia is the old people who will sacrifice themself for (their) perceived good of the family.. when the family says that no! it is actually in the families best interests to have grandpa or ma around... there is the grandmother hypothesis... kids do better with grandparents around... of course they do... parents to better too...
well.. some of them. not when everyone has to hang about looking after grandpa instead of doing what is in their best interests...
apparently you can't talk of selection between cultural groups of humans because of gene flow. too much interbreeding for true genetic difference. thus there isn't reliable inheritance. i sort of take the point... but i sort of don't. most 'traditional' cultures... seems to me... aren't doing so well. we can pour money at them but it is pouring money at a sinking ship. these cultures aren't evolving they aren't adapting they aren't keeping up. they aren't very well able to incorporate technological advances etc... insofar as the cultures are alive they are segregated from the mainstream...
and of course there are other cultures that are alive and developing and flourishing... modern day... all kinds... chinese... indian... western... lots of different ones. and of course there is through-traffic. but there are also clear cases where cultures clash. norms and expectations etc. and people make choices which one they follow in what respects...
seems to me you can trace this... then see the 'sick' or 'dying' ones... those relegated to the ICU living on borrowed time... not enough impetus or momentum from within to evolve things to incorporate modern advances...
seems to me.
not entirely sure why a generation of academics is anti this line of thinking... except that everyone skirts well away from the possibility of anything vaguely hinting suggesting anything at all to do with anything sorta kinda like eugenics. (what do we do about intellectually handicapped people with genetic disorder who are institutionalized and fertile currently?) genetic screening...
there is a downs syndrome 'movement' apparently... to do with quality of life... i feel squeemish...
or perhaps there really are issues with high fidelity inheritance and the reification of memes that is problematic in ways that currently escape me.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2013, at 23:33:24
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2013, at 23:15:05
and of course 'intelligence' is a problematic notion. i've been reading... i think of this as pop culture, too... stuff about 'giftedness'. particularly interesting is the idea that it can indeed make sense to consider gifted individuals to be 'special needs' similarly to how we consider intellectually handicapped individuals to be special needs.
it interested me a great deal that *motivation* was meant to be part of the syndrome. DRIVE.
there is a (pop culture) idea of 10,000 hours to expertise (based on number of hours of practice over a period of about 10 years). if you consider experts in various fields (piano, violin, ice hockey, chess etc etc) what they have in common is at least 10,000 hours of (mentally focused) practice. not that this is sufficient for expertise. but that it is necessary. what kind of DRIVE do you need to sustain that focused practice?
that that is a huge part of 'gifted'. The ability to get really very excited indeed about esoteric things (chess etc) and get total immersion lost in them for hours and hours and hours over a period of around 10 years. To become obsessed about them. Living and breathing. That a huge part of the development of excellence is the motivation and drive and fact that one gets enjoyment from the activity.
Instead of... Being poked and prodded into pretending to care and half heartedly twiddling in front of the 10 x more exciting infomercials...
Instead of... Sleep.
So much made sense...
INtense frustration at hearing someone say the same thing for the 10th time when I got it round 1. Intense frustration at people stopping - just when things were about to get interesting / take off. Apparently gifted learners aren't 'good learners' with 'good work habits'. Mostly... They have no work habits. F*ck.
My supervisor... Wasn't naturally gifted. He has worked hard and worked dilligently. Now... He comes out with things that truly sound gifted. But his brain doesn't work like a computer at a billino miles an hour like some othe rminds.. And he... Has no time for the 'gifted' thing. For him... Dillegent hard work is the key. We have whatever intellegence we need or we wouldn't have been accepted... So now you can forget about that and just work freaking hard. Fair enough...
But I see now why I had so many 'behavior problems' in school. And I've rediscovered my behavior problems and frustrations over these last couple years... I've met people... I... I didn't think there were people like that. I didn't htink... There actually were people like that. I... I don't know what to say.
Some strategies are 'frequency dependent'. Insofar as the introversion thing is 1 in 3... That suggests something. I wonder how it correlates with intelligence. Trouble is... I don't have faith in standard measures of intelligence. I suspect because my strengths / weaknesses balance out to average. Placing me in... The wrong group.
Motivationally.
Sometimes. But tehn... What hte f*ck am i doing now? i ask myself... always. shiver.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2013, at 23:58:15
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2013, at 23:33:24
sigh.
this is all because i've told the girls across the hall *at least three times* that they can be as noisy as they want in their rooms *with the doors shut* and i can't hear them at all - but if they make noise in the hall *i can't hear anything but them*.
it is a combination of stupidity and wilfull ignorance.
i do appreciate that most of the course that one of them is on is in fact devoted to teaching them to wash their hands. that they will be taught this repetitively over the course of the semester. and that *still* the significant majority will forget but they will have to pass them any way.
(actually i hear medical students are just about as bad. sigh).
so what makes me think that they can stop slamming doors, singing in the halls etc after only three tellings?
what am i supposed to do? i don't understand.
ideally...
i suppose humour could help. i could go out and be all cheerfully like 'oh, hello noisy one!' and if i'm suitably cheerful it might not be quite as tedious for them as it would be for me.
but then i would be *rewarding* them for their noisiness. since their noisiness is all about their informing other people 'here i am!' since they are lonely and wish others would make noise so they could go bug them. so... that strategy would only result in their making more noise...
if i yell at them... i still feel that it would be a case of punishment is better than no attention.
how the f*ck did i manage to be the keeper of the intellectually handicapped asylum?
and why am i feeling so... hostile? scathing? about intellectually handicapped people? isn't that.... awful? what is happening to me???????
Posted by alexandra_k on September 15, 2013, at 0:25:14
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on September 14, 2013, at 23:58:15
if i don't get in to a hall next year i'm not sure what i'm going to do.
here... it is a fundamental issue of incompatibility.
they need to be closer to me and i need them to back off.
everything i do is geared around them backing off.
everything they do is geared around being closer to me.
i feel cornered and in danger of lashing out (what the f*ck do i have to do to have you back the f*ck off)
they feel... i don't know. that i would look after them better than they look after them.
what they fail to grasp is that the only reason why that is true is because i am not looking after them. i am only looking after myself.
if i started looking after them then i wouldn't be looking after myself anymore. and then i'd do as sh*t of a job at looking after them as they do.
awesome. lets all stay in this sh*t hole and suck together.
don't, whatever you do, pay attention in class, distinguish yourself by actually learning something, and earn your f*ck*ng way out. don't you dare. you selfish bitch. can't you see my retirement plan is... you? let me look after you dear, here eat fattening cookies mmmmm yeah. i know what is good for me - i mean you. of course i do.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 18, 2013, at 15:09:27
In reply to Re: Social Skills, posted by alexandra_k on September 15, 2013, at 0:25:14
if you have a common space... some grazing land. a lake. woods. the ocean. the skies.
then if everybody does what is rationally in their own best interests (to use up more of the communal resource for ones personal profit than everyone else - to gain the competitive advantage)... then it will eventually be ruined for everyone.
natural selection can result in situations where what improves my inclusive fitness (e.g., to have more sheep than you) results in the extinction of us all.
in order to prevent the tragedy of the commons you need to regulate it. if you rely on individual conscience to police then you select for selfish individuals who are insensitive to the good of the group (and to their own longer term welfare).
e.g., psychopaths. or just your average insensitive idiot.
natural selection is incremental: not goal or ends directed. a trait isn't selected 'for the good of the group' but it is present in the group in higher frequencies in subsequent generations for doing better than other variants.
this is what makes the evolution of co-operation seem puzzling...
the best strategy is if everyone co-operates / has a conscience. but given that one cheats / defects, it seems that everyone else must, too. so given that the default was to be un co-operative, how could co-operation have gotten up off the ground as a viable strategy?mutual benefit
but why co-operate when it is in your best interests to defect?
it isn't in your best interests to defect - you will be punished
but why punish when doing so is individually costly?
because if you cheat me I'LL BE SO INCENSED I'LL STRIKE THE FURY OF THE GODS UPON YE
and the outrage i reliably feel in response to injustice is hard to fake
(pro-social emotions include emotions that make us likely to punish / police defectors because they prevent the population being over-ridden by selfish bastards)this is why people get together and bond by expressing appropriate disgust / condemnation / admiration for the actions of others. the function is signalling ones moral attitudes / emotions that you will then muster to motivate co-operation / punishment of defection. seeing whether people have the appropriate attitudes / emotions. Whether they can harness those in ways that make mutual collaborative activity possible. Seeing whether their judgements about others possessing the appropriate attitudes / emotions are reliable. Reputation. For what is important. Namely, for figuring out who to trust with potentially mutually profitable co-operative activities. e.g., i have research funding. i give you some money, you produce some work. i get more research funding for work that was produced. you get more money. you give more work. and so on. you need to know who the defectors are to avoid them... or the whole ship goes down. reputation (of those with reputation) is important. Of course it is complicated by some people being trustworthy with some things in some circumstances but not with these other things over there... The judgements we must make...
hardest thing in the world: deciding who to engage in co-operative activity with
a lot depends on situation...
MUTUAL BENEFIT. with minimal opportunity to use the ring of gyges...
could mental illness be a tragedy of the commons? how so?
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 18, 2013, at 22:29:26
In reply to tragedy of the unregulated commons, posted by alexandra_k on September 18, 2013, at 15:09:27
> if you have a common space... some grazing land. a lake. woods. the ocean. the skies.
>
> then if everybody does what is rationally in their own best interests (to use up more of the communal resource for ones personal profit than everyone else - to gain the competitive advantage)... then it will eventually be ruined for everyone.
>
> in order to prevent the tragedy of the commons you need to regulate it. if you rely on individual conscience to police then you select for selfish individuals who are insensitive to the good of the group (and to their own longer term welfare).
>
> hardest thing in the world: deciding who to engage in co-operative activity with
>
> could mental illness be a tragedy of the commons? how so?Could Babble be a commons? How so?
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on September 19, 2013, at 18:25:27
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by Dr. Bob on September 18, 2013, at 22:29:26
is this about the three post rule?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 19, 2013, at 18:26:10
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by alexandra_k on September 19, 2013, at 18:25:27
:-/
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 19, 2013, at 21:05:40
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by alexandra_k on September 19, 2013, at 18:25:27
> is this about the three post rule?
That wasn't what I had in mind, but thanks for remembering. :-)
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2013, at 4:23:36
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by Dr. Bob on September 19, 2013, at 21:05:40
well then...
i guess you could view it as a commons.
some points of similarity that occur to me, that might be relevant...
it is a space.
that was a potential problem with the mental illness idea... i guess my thought there was that mental illness might be selected for (without being adaptive) rather than dysfunctional (to the individual). but i think now that the crucial bit that got me excited was the idea that inclusive fitness or evolution by selection doesn't necessarily produce adaptation.
even though Campbell's Biology (what is that, like the very best textbook in the whole freaking world!!!) says:
(concept 23.4 HEADER --)
'Natural selection is the only mechanism that consistently causes adaptive evolution'
That is not true.
WHat is this notion of adaptation? fit between organism and environment? What the hell does that mean? Consider the behaviour of the handstanding beetle that stands on its head in deserts so morning dew collects on its body and runs down into its mouth. or darwins finches with beaks and foraging behavior both adapted to a niche... What is this notion of fit?
Consider also... (I totally stole this).
a gene that is only carried on the y chromosome... results in the y sperm swimming faster than the x sperm so they tend to reach (hence successfully fertilize) the egg before the x's get there. this will take over the population and eventually... result in the extinction of the species (including that particular gene, of course) from too many boys / not enough girls.
what we seem to have here is... un co-operative genes (that replicate themselves to the cost of the genes they are supposed to be co-operating with). but also ultimately... to their own demise... which... isn't very rational. seems to me. more things considered... isn't very optimal. isn't very adaptive.
anyway... back to babble...
it is space limited (sort of) in the sense that people who look at the boards are looking at a certain number of posts because older posts are archived.
the three post rule is an obvious one with respect to limiting the frequency of posts by a single poster. which limits the frequency of their posts relative to others. which alters the sample that a new poster perusing the boards is likely to read. which alters their decision whether to join...
perhaps...
basic things...
these boards are obviously tended. there aren't a bunch of 'enlarge your penisses with natural artificial supplementz!' posts. insofar as the internet is a commons the problem is... the sh*t that the masses contribute. that takes so very much time... to sort though. hence the three post rule, again.. sigh. (i only violate it because i feel like i'm running out of space. but this shows that babble is indeed space limited, in a sense). and it is weird, right, because i can make this post (for example) as long as i like (to the best of my knowledge).... anyway... i need to get better at impulse control. clearly.
what else.... i don't know.
i don't know.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2013, at 5:10:22
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2013, at 4:23:36
oh.
policing is costly.
it takes time and effort to punish defectors - and one runs the risk of the defector retaliating.
i guess that is what can be nice about having a leader. someone else to bear the cost of punishment.
i have only recently come around to viewing failing to punish defectors as itself being a kind of defecting.
i think that sometimes that is what people mean when they tell me to 'stand up'. i think that oftentimes people do attempt to take advantage of me to test my limits... how much i will let them get away with and then what i will do. am i the kind of person who punishes appropriately or am i the kind of person who lashes out? that is valuable information to know about a person...
i shock people because when people test me... my response is to opt out. i... lack the... emotional control. to meet out appropriate punishment.
i think.
i am not a leader. not that kind of leader. i don't know.
of course i do know that someone has got to do it.
probably.
i guess libertarians or whatever focus on ways in which cultures / peoples have solved tragedy of the commons situations appropriately.
i think we need to look to anthropology and consider the cases. i'd be interested to consider some of the best cases from anthropology for different sorts of solutions to tragedy of commons situations / different forms of governments...
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2013, at 18:29:37
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2013, at 5:10:22
typically in the human behaviour case people consider:
- collection of resources
- distribution of resources
- mate selection / care of offspring (guys need to trust the offspring is theirs, girls need to trust they will receive appropriate assistance with bearing the metabolic costs of pregnancy / lactation - at the very least -)with respect to co-operation. there are opportunities to defect (or to be incapacitated in some way) with respect to these...
(i'd be interested to know whether people with mental illness have problems assessing their contribution in public goods games / whether their future discounting is more extreme. difficulties with 'mental time travel'? or perhaps math? lolz.)
message board analogy?
in order for evolution to occur you need
- high fidelity inheritance (copies resemble parents more than non-parents)
- competition for finite resources (differential reproduction)
- variation in traitsmessage board analogy?
(cultural artifacts are problematic because transmission is more horizontal than vertical. the next generation profits - but it is unclear that ones own offspring profits more than their age mates. while some apprentices are their parents genetic offspring most aren't.)
in order for there to be a tragedy of the commons there needs to be:
- a commons. a space. i think we can grant that message boards are a space / place in a sense.
- the space to be finite in some way. for there to be competition. with respect to either something that can be got out of the space (a resource) or with respect to ones representation in the space (like bacteria populating a fixed size petrie dish with unlimited food supply). like... having posts in the unarchived space? perhaps... having people respond to your posts? perhaps... what, exactly? this is interesting...- the possibility of getting more of the above in a way that stabotages the possibility? liklihood? of others getting that. and... of yourself getting that (over the longer term)
i suspect... too many posts seeking support and not enough posts offering it could do that. that was actually what drew me to the site (along with all the other checks of no spam, no advertising, text / literacy based)... the intelligent, articulate, caring responses that people were getting from others.
how there certainly did seem to be norms of reciprocity on these boards. thoughtful responses to particular individuals - then you were in fact more likely to receive back in kind.
a lot of other message boards you can put a lot of time and energy into thoughtful responses to particular individuals - and not even get any acknowledgement back. or get dismissive acknowledgement.
seems to me.
hmm.
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 21, 2013, at 2:51:12
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2013, at 18:29:37
> it takes time and effort to punish defectors - and one runs the risk of the defector retaliating.
>
> i guess that is what can be nice about having a leader. someone else to bear the cost of punishment.I'm reminded of something Twinleaf posted recently on Admin:
> > The history of sharing leadership with you -i.e. the deputies - has been unexpectedly negative
--
> in order for there to be a tragedy of the commons there needs to be:
>
> - a commons. a space. i think we can grant that message boards are a space / place in a sense.
>
> - the space to be finite in some way. for there to be competition. with respect to either something that can be got out of the space (a resource) or with respect to ones representation in the space (like bacteria populating a fixed size petrie dish with unlimited food supply). like... having posts in the unarchived space? perhaps... having people respond to your posts? perhaps... what, exactly? this is interesting...
>
> - the possibility of getting more of the above in a way that stabotages the possibility? liklihood? of others getting that. and... of yourself getting that (over the longer term)It was interesting to take a look at the 1968 article by Garrett Hardin in Science. In addition to the points you've already made:
> > natural selection favors the forces of psychological denial (8). The individual benefits as an individual from his ability to deny the truth even though society as a whole, of which he is a part, suffers.
> >
> > Education can counteract the natural tendency to do the wrong thing, but the inexorable succession of generations requires that the basis for this knowledge be constantly refreshed.
> >
> > In a reverse way, the tragedy of the commons reappears in problems of pollution. Here it is not a question of taking something out of the commons, but of putting something in--sewage, or chemical, radioactive, and heat wastes into water; noxious and dangerous fumes into the air, and distracting and unpleasant advertising signs into the line of sight. The calculations of utility are much the same as before. The rational man finds that his share of the cost of the wastes he discharges into the commons is less than the cost of purifying his wastes before releasing them. Since this is true for everyone, we are locked into a system of "fouling our own nest," so long as we behave only as independent, rational, free-enterprisers.
> >
> > The social arrangements that produce responsibility are arrangements that create coercion, of some sort.
> >
> > Taxing is a good coercive device. To keep downtown shoppers temperate in their use of parking space we introduce parking meters for short periods, and traffic fines for longer ones. We need not actually forbid a citizen to park as long as he wants to; we need merely make it increasingly expensive for him to do so. Not prohibition, but carefully biased options are what we offer him.
> >
> > To many, the word coercion implies arbitrary decisions of distant and irresponsible bureaucrats; but this is not a necessary part of its meaning. The only kind of coercion I recommend is mutual coercion, mutually agreed upon by the majority of the people affected.
> >
> > To say that we mutually agree to coercion is not to say that we are required to enjoy it, or even to pretend we enjoy it. Who enjoys taxes? We all grumble about them. But we accept compulsory taxes because we recognize that voluntary taxes would favor the conscienceless. We institute and (grumblingly) support taxes and other coercive devices to escape the horror of the commons.http://www.sciencemag.org/content/162/3859/1243.full
> insofar as the internet is a commons the problem is... the sh*t that the masses contribute. that takes so very much time... to sort though.
> a lot of other message boards you can put a lot of time and energy into thoughtful responses to particular individuals - and not even get any acknowledgement back. or get dismissive acknowledgement.
What I had in mind originally wasn't how many posts were posted, but what kind. The issues Hardin grouped under the heading "pollution".
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2013, at 18:11:33
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by Dr. Bob on September 21, 2013, at 2:51:12
I hadn't read the Hardin article. Perfect statement of a position on mental illness (whether true or false, perfect statement of a position).
:-)
I think part of the negative experience of the deputies was facing hostility from those they punished and from other members of the community who disagreed with their decision to punish and / or with their decision to more generally participate in the process of sanctions. I think that came as a bit of a shock. And then the deputies wanted special protection from those kinds of hostilities (which involves more punishments being doled out) and things got hard... Of course the deputies all turned out to be a hell of a lot stronger than they thought... Something something about iron and fires...
I dug around some more and, of course, Ostrom won the Nobel prize already for looking at anthropological solutions to tragedy of commons. I just knew it would be a good idea to do that :-)
(Profiting, as I do, from interacting with *other people* who have been influenced by her work).
It is a whole field... There is a 'Journal of Commons' even. Lol.
I found "Managing the virtual commons: Cooperation and conflict in computer communities" - but I'm having trouble re-finding the internal content for the first chapter... Found this handy summary here:
But it doesn't quite do justice to parts I thought were worth drawing out... The social dilemma's... Ostrom's 8 features...
Posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2013, at 23:33:24
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2013, at 18:11:33
If you are driving a car you can detect hazards pretty quickly and send a signal for the car to speed up or veer in order to protect yourself. If you are remote controlling an exploratory vehicle on Mars things are harder because of the time delay. If you wanted the vehicle to come to no harm the best thing to do would be to try and program in some sorts of intelligence. The ability to detect the edge of a surface and stop before falling off it, for instance.
Imagine that you have some terminal disease but scientists can offer you the option of being stored safely away while they work on a cure at which point they will revive you and cure you. You need to figure out what kind of vehicle to put yourself in while your body awaits a cure. What will your strategy be? Will you get a vehicle that burrows you down below the earth and hides? Will you get a vehicle that moves about in the effort to avoid predators?
I am not doing Dennett's example justice...
But the idea is that we are such vehicles for our genes. They get together and co-operate in order to produce a vehicle to house themseleves in: Us. They give us brains so we can respond to the changing world / environment in order to protect them... But...
Perhaps... We can use some of the tools they gave us to look after them... We can subvert those... We can use those... To look after ourself. Perhaps even at their expense.
I mean...
From my perspective...
A teacher can contribute / leave much more than many genetic parents do. Leave more what? Whatever it is that WE (as people) care about. The influence of Newton and Einstein etc etc etc. I don't even know if they had kids or not. In a sense... Who cares?
Genes just aren't particularly important to us. Not for the things that matter to us. Things like... Creativity. Intelligence. Kindness. Pro-Sociality... The effects of genes is really very negligable compared to the effects of environment / teaching. By this I mean to say: Most viable human beings have the potential to be much more creative, intelligent, kind, and pro-social (for example) than they currently are with their current genetic endowment - if only they had better environmental and educational conditions.
It... Doesn't matter who the breeders are (from our point of view) so long as some of us do... The things we care most about... Are more horizontally transmitted (from one generation to the other) rather than vertically (from parents to offspring). Public education etc acts as a buffer from having particularly sucky parents...
Adoption...
This is perhaps one of the things that was wrong with eugenics. We... Don't have to worry about individuals with no social conscience breeding more than individuals with social conscience thus leading to the demise of our species... We... Have to worry about the lack of education / sucky environmental conditions / awful parenting that leads to individuals with no social conscience. The latter will fix things up for most everyone... The former... Well... You can send your criminals to Australia but new ones will only emerge as fast as you can ship 'em and Australians (now) aren't as criminal as they once were. Perhaps.
;-)
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 22, 2013, at 22:55:02
In reply to Re: the commons, posted by alexandra_k on September 21, 2013, at 23:33:24
> Ostrom won the Nobel prize already for looking at anthropological solutions to tragedy of commons.
>
> I found "Managing the virtual commons: Cooperation and conflict in computer communities" - but I'm having trouble re-finding the internal content for the first chapter... Found this handy summary here:
>
> http://cscw10.hciresearch.org/content/managing-virtual-commons-cooperation-and-conflict-computer-communities-1996What anthropological solutions did Ostrom find?
Thanks for sharing that link, I hadn't seen it before. Do their conclusions apply to Babble?
> > Babble is a remarkable institution which enables cooperation, however significant shortcomings remain.
> > Babble has a double edge: monitoring is easier, but sanctioning becomes more difficult: communication costs are lower, but defecting costs increases: it's easier to find people with similar interests and collaborate, but it is also easier to be disrupted by people who want to prevent collaboration;
> > "Babble may not need to resolve these problems, it may simply become a public space in cyberspace where the balance between order and autonomy is decided in favor of the latter."--
> You can send your criminals to Australia but ... Australians (now) aren't as criminal as they once were. Perhaps.
Becoming less criminal sounds like a good thing. How did that happen?
Bob
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