![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 55. Go back in thread:
Posted by sigismund on November 22, 2010, at 12:34:02
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Willful on November 21, 2010, at 23:47:39
>and it's made more difficult by the tangential nature of relationships in online communities, where one can sometimes seem to see only the problematic aspects of the other person, rather than having a fuller sense of their virtues and limitations.
That seems right. Nice post.
Posted by Jay_Clockwork_Angels on November 22, 2010, at 19:00:36
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dr. Bob on November 21, 2010, at 18:07:38
> > Trouble is... that we can't 'make' someone 'see' their behavior and the harm it causes. Many people are stuck in long-standing behavior patterns that are (mis)driven by some need they have, and they really don't 'get' how much harm they might be causing.
> >
> > 'Forgiveness' is just as tricky as apology. An apology that is not accompanied by acknowledgment and then followed by a change in behavior isn't an apology in my eyes. ... What I really love is when someone repeatedly commits the same offense over and over, and glibbly apologizes over and over.. then when you get fed up and tell them it's 'over' they say "Well! You're not very forgiving!" good grief.
> >
> > Forgiveness does NOT let the other party off the hook. ... We have control over some consequences some times. If someone repeatedly hurts us by saying bad things about us to others, we can't make them feel bad or make them change, but we Can cut off the relationship. ... I've finally learned that 'bout the only thing I can do is first, go to that person and explain how their behavior affected me. If they respond in a way that tells me they want to make amends, I'll give them another chance. If they do it again, I might talk to them again and pull away.. but after the third time.. my options are limited ... We have no control over what others choose to do, but we do have control over how much we expose ourselves to them.
>
> I can identify. :-)
>
> BobWell, if I can throw in my 2.6 (Canadian) cents...I believe it is possible to hold a "never say never" stance. This is why I don't believe much in behaviouralism. That is, because, I think our social mores, personal philisophical values..okay, our social conscience... deserves much more attention than it gets. What you think the consequences should be for something requiring an apology is a similar framework used for larger questions like "Do you believe in the death penalty?". You most likely do or don't believe in it because of the values and such that you hold.
Bob, I think you would agree, that there are *never* no options. Yes, that comes from my personal philosophy, but I think is required consideration by both the "victim" and the "perpetrator", at some point in time. Otherwise...the whole world will go blind..etc...(sorry..just had to add that)
IMHO..YMMV..etc..
Jay
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2010, at 10:36:41
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present, posted by Solstice on November 22, 2010, at 10:26:47
> I just wish the moderation here were more consistent and ongoing, so some of this could be nipped in the bud. Especially now with the ability to apologize for actions or words, I feel as if more immediate responses could lead to more civility and fewer, or shorter blocks. Maybe someday--
>
> Willful> although we have a voice and can make suggestions, we are not in control of how the site is run.
>
> SolsticeThe ability to apologize isn't anything new. You're in control of that.
I wish apologies were more consistent and ongoing. More immediate apologies could lead to more civility and fewer or no blocks. Maybe someday.
Bob
Posted by 10derheart on November 23, 2010, at 16:22:05
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2010, at 10:36:41
Amen, Dr. Bob. Amen.
Posted by Solstice on November 23, 2010, at 17:47:07
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2010, at 10:36:41
*Priceless*!
> > I just wish the moderation here were more consistent and ongoing, so some of this could be nipped in the bud. Especially now with the ability to apologize for actions or words, I feel as if more immediate responses could lead to more civility and fewer, or shorter blocks. Maybe someday--
> >
> > Willful
> I wish apologies were more consistent and ongoing. More immediate apologies could lead to more civility and fewer or no blocks. Maybe someday.
>
> Bob
Posted by Willful on November 24, 2010, at 8:55:58
In reply to Re: Apologies, posted by Solstice on November 23, 2010, at 17:47:07
I suppose we all have different phantasies about the path to nirvana..
Frequently, they boil down, in some way, to thinking the other person should shape up, fix it, or just be nicer about it.
Sometimes I think if Bob were more of a dictator, but had a more warm and smiling presence, we would be a lot "happier" here. I notice I"m much more frustrated by him for combining the social and health boards than I would have been if he hadn't asked for opinions, and I hadn't put the energy into trying to convince him not to. Maybe you should worry about getting what you wish for-- ie more consultation maybe worse than a benevolent dictatorship, despite our thinking that we prefer it.
Willful
Posted by Maxime on December 13, 2010, at 5:33:29
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present » Maxime, posted by Phillipa on November 21, 2010, at 17:24:17
> Would you feel better to know that yes I was raped when a teen. But then there was no such thing as "Date Rape" you were just expected to accepted it and forget it. Would you feel better to know my ex broke my nose which required the hospital to fix. But the worst thing that has happened to me is the words to this day I think of daily from my long deceased Mother who blamed me for her illness, screamed and foamed at the mouth while kicking and screaming at me? Blamed me daily for all her problems. So I learned early to apologize and not stick up for myself. But the physical stuff is long forgotten. It's the verbal/emotional abuse that remains and my fears of saying one word wrong. Because of the death at age 17 of my Mother I went into nursing to try and make up for killing my Mother. Which I fully believe I did. Even today my husband tells me I didn't kill her because she said carrying me up two flights of stairs when a baby is what made her sick. But even at almost age 65 I will never ever forget that I killed her. Hence everytime a physical illness since she wished them on me also I know I deserve it.
Of course I don't feel better knowing the above. I wouldn't want it to happen to anyone. But I fail to see what it has to do with an apology.
I would feel better if you acknowledge exactly what you and how it effected others. I feel it's very easy to say the words "I'm sorry" to quieten the other person. I have seen it happen between spouses a lot.
I was in the hospital for a week when I was blocked. I brought by a social worker to my house to pick up some of my things because I had nothing with me at the hospital and they didn't trust me to be on my own. My psychiatrist asked me to print up a lot of this thread and the ones that lead up to it and give them to him.
A couple of days letter we talked about it all. for over 2 hours. He was appalled at what when on. I can't say much more than that or else I will get blocked again. But he did say that depression and anxiety are more than what is at play here.
My brother stayed with my mom whilst I was in the hospital and he came on my computer and found the site because it was in my history. He figured out who I was and he was disgusted at what when on and with the board in general.
So Phillipa, I do not accept your apology.
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:20:43
In reply to Re: Public Apology To All Past And Present » Phillipa, posted by Maxime on December 13, 2010, at 5:33:29
While it's impossible to be certain about what happens behind the scenes in Babblemails and e-mails, and presumption of innocence is always a given, one needs to ask what the most fair and protective administrative position would be if what Maxime has said here is true.
It's worth noting that her own psychiatrist believes what she has said, and is apparently quite distressed by it.. While a strict interpretation of the civility rules would mean that a block for Maxine is (more or less) in order, I don't think we have any guidelines for Babblemails, which are also a part of Psychobabble.
When a community member makes allegations that are this serious, I think we need to have some way to make sure any relevant issues are fully addressed, either by the administration or by administrative delegates, If that isn't done, we may be averting our eyes while members are exposed to inappropriate and dangerous behind the scenes communications.
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:35:40
In reply to a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:20:43
In stating this concern, I am assuming that Babblemails are part of the experience here, and as such, should be subject to civility guidelines. Babblemail can definitely help in building relationships and sharing information and knowledge, but it does have the potential to become harmful if it is used to communicate feelings and thoughts which would be unacceptable under the civility guidelines.
If one shares an e-mail address, on the other hand, a private communication channel is created which is not part of Babble and is not subject to civility guidelines.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 14, 2010, at 13:35:43
In reply to a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:20:43
> While it's impossible to be certain about what happens behind the scenes in Babblemails and e-mails, and presumption of innocence is always a given, one needs to ask what the most fair and protective administrative position would be if what Maxime has said here is true.
>
> It's worth noting that her own psychiatrist believes what she has said, and is apparently quite distressed by it.. While a strict interpretation of the civility rules would mean that a block for Maxine is (more or less) in order, I don't think we have any guidelines for Babblemails, which are also a part of Psychobabble.
>
> When a community member makes allegations that are this serious, I think we need to have some way to make sure any relevant issues are fully addressed, either by the administration or by administrative delegates, If that isn't done, we may be averting our eyes while members are exposed to inappropriate and dangerous behind the scenes communications.
>
>
>
>
Hi Twinleaf,
Babblemails are and have always been included within the civility guidelines. Personal email communications between members are not (this is my understanding). I believe this is addressed in the FAQs already.Interpersonal dynamics are what drew me here in the first place and also part of what triggers me :-/
My therapist's advice has been to leave Babble long ago; I often feel, however, that I receive more support here, anonymously and amongst my peers, than I ever would IRL. It's different and yet important in how we are able where we are each coming from - you don't often get that in face-to-face situations.
pc
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:54:24
In reply to Re: a note of concern... » twinleaf, posted by PartlyCloudy on December 14, 2010, at 13:35:43
Oh, ok. That's good to know. In a case like this one, I notice that Maxime was blocked because her allegations could have made Phillipa feel put down. But what happens to Maxime's allegations about the content of Phillipa's Babblemails to her? Are these investigated privately? Are there penalties of some sort to Phillipa if Maximes allegations are found to be accurate? I believe this situation concerns inappropriate statements which contributed to an episode of self-injury - an extremely serious situation- so much more serious than just delivering a put-down. It doesn't appear that anything is being done, although I could be wrong.
Yes. I think many people would agree with you - that Babble does provide a special sort of understanding and support. I guess that's why we are all here, despite many difficulties.
Posted by Solstice on December 14, 2010, at 14:24:57
In reply to a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:20:43
> While it's impossible to be certain about what happens behind the scenes in Babblemails and e-mails, and presumption of innocence is always a given, one needs to ask what the most fair and protective administrative position would be if what Maxime has said here is true.
>
> It's worth noting that her own psychiatrist believes what she has said, and is apparently quite distressed by it.. While a strict interpretation of the civility rules would mean that a block for Maxine is (more or less) in order, I don't think we have any guidelines for Babblemails, which are also a part of Psychobabble.
>
> When a community member makes allegations that are this serious, I think we need to have some way to make sure any relevant issues are fully addressed, either by the administration or by administrative delegates, If that isn't done, we may be averting our eyes while members are exposed to inappropriate and dangerous behind the scenes communications.
>
I couldn't agree with you more, Twin. If Babblemail is used to make uncivil, accusatory, etc. comments to someone off-board, that person should be held just as accountable as if everything they said in the Babblemail had been posted on the boards.Of course, this would involve someone taking responsibility for investigating the legitimacy of the claims... but if someone is blocked for making a claim that Babblemail was used to perpetrate incivility, then in my opinion, there is a duty to determine the legtimacy of the claim and respond accordingly.
Solstice
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 14:52:46
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by Solstice on December 14, 2010, at 14:24:57
I looked up the FAQs. PC is right: Babblemails are covered by the civility guidelines. In order for administration to take any action, the member who has received what he/she considers to be an inappropriate Babblemail needs to start the ball rolling by mailing a copy of the offensive message to Bob "with headers". I didn't see anything about what happens after that, This may not have been done very often.
Maxime, it could be very helpful, to you and to our entire community, if you did this. I think it's great to know that there is a way to seek redress from harmful Babblemails.
Posted by 10derheart on December 14, 2010, at 15:24:00
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 14:52:46
Right, and Dinah pointed this out at the time:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20101029/msgs/970420.html
Dr. Bob (and hyperfocus as well) confirmed:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20101029/msgs/970950.html
I've sent what i thought were uncivil Babblemails to Dr. Bob in the past. I think in at least one case he disagreed it was uncivil, and in another....I can't recall for sure, he may have blocked, extended a block or given a PBC himself. I think it's a difficult balance. not wanting to stoke a fire by posting every detail of what went on behind the scenes (uncivil Babblemails, or, conversely those he thinks are fine but the recipient feels are uncivil), yet also realizing the community has no idea what, if anything was done. You're right, it is an uncommon thing. I think he tries to post something in the thread (IF there was a thread) if he acts so posters can understand what happened, particularly if a poster may disappear due to a block triggered by a Babblemail. Again, long time back, can't remember details.
You could ask Dr. Bob what happened with this particular situation. That's the only way to know. But, if Maxi deleted them without sending to Dr. Bob, I would think his hands were/are tied.
Also, as hard as it may be, we probably have to remind ourselves that 1) definitions of gossip may vary and 2) gossip isn't automatically uncivil under Babble guidelines, as Dr. Bob wrote. I guess other alternatives than Dr. Bob taking some action against anyone for Babblemail(s), like turning off your B-mail for a while, deleting B-mail from posters that trigger or with whom you aren't getting along, and so forth are some things we can do.
It's never going to be a case of finding a way to give complete shelter to those of us who are vulnerable. I wish, but it's just not possible or real in light of the nature of humans. So, I hope and pray posters will be kinder and more careful with one another, to the best of their abilities and that people who need more support will reach out for it in every way they can. For example, I see Maxime has offered an email address to friends, etc., in case it's needed because of any future block, so she won't feel cut off. That sounds smart and healthy to me.
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 15:35:42
In reply to Re: a note of concern... » twinleaf, posted by 10derheart on December 14, 2010, at 15:24:00
Oh, ok. I had not been following this thread, so I didn't know that Maxime had been encouraged by Bob and Dinah to submit her Babblemail. Perhaps she deleted it beforehand or decided not to submit it. Anyway, help is available, and was offered; maybe this episode will raise awareness of the potential for private Babblemails to cross the line, as well as the availability of administrative help.
Posted by PartlyCloudy on December 14, 2010, at 16:52:08
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:54:24
> Oh, ok. That's good to know. In a case like this one, I notice that Maxime was blocked because her allegations could have made Phillipa feel put down. But what happens to Maxime's allegations about the content of Phillipa's Babblemails to her? Are these investigated privately? Are there penalties of some sort to Phillipa if Maximes allegations are found to be accurate? I believe this situation concerns inappropriate statements which contributed to an episode of self-injury - an extremely serious situation- so much more serious than just delivering a put-down. It doesn't appear that anything is being done, although I could be wrong.
>
> Yes. I think many people would agree with you - that Babble does provide a special sort of understanding and support. I guess that's why we are all here, despite many difficulties.I have also successfully pursued administrative action based on Babblemails I received.
pc
Posted by Maxime on December 14, 2010, at 19:30:45
In reply to a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 13:20:43
I did pass on my Babble Mails to Dr. Bob. He found nothing wrong with them. I printed them up for my psychiatrist, and he found a lot of things wrong with them. I have since added a filter on my email account to automatically delete any Babblemail I receive from Phillipa. I have the rule set up so that I will never see them should she send me anything. But I highly doubt that she will.
My psychiatrist wants me to leave PB. I don't know if I will ever "leave" but we made a deal that he would check PB on a regular basis to make sure that I was safe. It will be weird having him read stuff I write here, but at least it will give us something to talk about!
I do get a lot of support here, and it makes me feel good when I can give support. Being able to write Babble Mails is probably a better support system to me than the board itself. I have a lot of friends here and we support one another in times of need and of course often we just share what our day was like.
Posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 19:50:11
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by Maxime on December 14, 2010, at 19:30:45
I appreciate your telling what happened. It's distressing that Bob and your psychiatrist hold such differing views, but it sounds as though you have taken all the right steps to both protect yourself and go on enjoying the support and friendship which Babble offers.
I don't do Babblemail, so I wasn't aware of how much it can offer.
Posted by Maxime on December 14, 2010, at 20:55:11
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 14, 2010, at 19:50:11
What was distressing in the situation was that Bob did not respond to my email in a timely fashion at all. Here is the thread where I am begging him to respond http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/970729.html
So the situation escalated even further whilst waiting for a respose from him.The whole situation was messed up in more ways than one.
Posted by twinleaf on December 16, 2010, at 13:32:49
In reply to Re: a note of concern... » twinleaf, posted by Maxime on December 14, 2010, at 20:55:11
I'm not clear what happened. Did Bob let you know, eventually, that he did not find anything uncivil in Phillipa's Babblemail, or did he not reply at all?
Posted by Phillipa on December 16, 2010, at 21:30:39
In reply to Re: a note of concern... » Maxime, posted by twinleaf on December 16, 2010, at 13:32:49
Yes as I recall he did and he did review them. He also wrote me and said same. Phillipa
Posted by twinleaf on December 16, 2010, at 22:10:43
In reply to Re: a note of concern... » twinleaf, posted by Phillipa on December 16, 2010, at 21:30:39
Thank you, Phillipa. Most of us are not too familiar with how the civility rules apply to Babblemail, so I do appreciate your letting us know what happened for you in this situation..
Posted by Phillipa on December 17, 2010, at 19:03:31
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by twinleaf on December 16, 2010, at 22:10:43
Twinleaf you are most welcome. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 18, 2010, at 18:18:30
In reply to Re: a note of concern..., posted by Maxime on December 14, 2010, at 19:30:45
> I did pass on my Babble Mails to Dr. Bob. He found nothing wrong with them.
That's not what I said on 11/21/10 at 1:26 PM. Maybe you have a different time in mind?
Bob
Posted by Maxime on December 18, 2010, at 18:42:51
In reply to Re: a note of concern... » Maxime, posted by Dr. Bob on December 18, 2010, at 18:18:30
> > I did pass on my Babble Mails to Dr. Bob. He found nothing wrong with them.
>
> That's not what I said on 11/21/10 at 1:26 PM. Maybe you have a different time in mind?
>
> BobI know EXACTLY what you wrote. I still have the email. So no, I do not have a different time in mind.
Maxime
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.