![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by LJRen on October 26, 2006, at 1:22:17
Came across this site tonight for the first time and thought I'd check it out. Was diagnosed w/ depression 12 years ago. Have tried every anti-depressant out there. Currently taking one but if you were to measure my emotional level from 0-10 with 0=lowest (saddest), 5=neutral, 10=highest (happiest). I consistently hover around 2-5. So, it's safe to say the drugs aren't really doing it for me but I stay on them b/c they keep me from going down to 0-1.
I've been in therapy for years. Not currently tho b/c I just recently moved to another state, started a new job, and waiting for the 90 day probabtionary period to pass so that my insurance will kick in.
Anyway, there's a whole list of crud I'm dealing with right now that I won't go into. I admit that when I was diagnosed years ago it was b/c I was suicidal. Also a couple years ago I walked into an ER b/c I was feeling pretty unstable and my Mom asked me to go. I ended up spending 4 days in a mental hospital. (Ironically, that's not really the best place for a depressed, suicidal person b/c they put you in with all the real crazies and that was just plain scarey.) But right now I'm not contemplating suicide. I'm not motivated enough to take that kind of action I guess.
But I keep wondering why everyone is so against it. Why is it such a bad thing? The word 'our' is a possessive word meaning when something is 'ours' it 'belongs' to us, or me, or you, or whoever. So if it is my life, then I should be able to do with it what I please, as long as I don't bring harm to anyone else. It's the same for people who want to do drugs. Hell, let them. As long as they don't drive, or have the responsibility of taking care of children, or something else like that, then let them do what they want, even if it does destroy their bodies & their lives.
If there are people out there who are so miserable and can't find solace, who for whatever reason are helpless prisoners of their own emotions, then why would anyone want to see them continue on in their misery? It would be like watching someone die from excruciating painful cancer, except people with depression aren't terminal! No, their pain gets to go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on.... And at least cancer patients can get pain killers during their last days. There are no emotional pain killers for us. Well, I guess if you got doped up on drugs or alcohol that might put the emotional pain in a haze, but I'm too smart to go that route.
I have been living with this for so long and I'm to the point now that I don't see it ending. When I was 17, I was in a near fatal car accident where I suffered a great deal of head trauma. Depression runs in my family b/c my Mom has it and her mother has it as well. But I truly believe that accident just made everything I was genetically predispositioned to 10 times worse. My mom even got migraines in her 40s, but I started getting them about a month after I got out of the hospital. So I question almost daily why the hell did I live through that damn accident if most of what I'm going to experience afterwards is going to be so painful. But the answer still continues to elude me.
Anyway, I'm interested in anyone's thoughts about my question.
Thanks, Ren
Posted by Gee on October 26, 2006, at 7:57:25
In reply to New with an interesting question, posted by LJRen on October 22, 2006, at 1:19:38
Welcome! I have so many ideas about your question, I don't want to say any of them...
Posted by LJRen on October 26, 2006, at 8:38:24
In reply to Re: New with an.. **Possible trigger above**, posted by Gee on October 26, 2006, at 7:57:25
Gee said - "I have so many ideas about your question, I don't want to say any of them..."
And why would that be?
Ren
Posted by Phillipa on October 26, 2006, at 12:49:11
In reply to Re: New with an.. **Possible trigger above**, posted by LJRen on October 26, 2006, at 8:38:24
Maybe some people don't believe what you believe so best left unsaid. I truly don't know though Love Phillipa
Posted by Racer on October 26, 2006, at 12:49:13
In reply to New with an interesting question, posted by LJRen on October 22, 2006, at 1:19:38
Welcome to Babble, and I hope you stick around. I've found a lot of support here over the years, and I hope you'll find a lot of support, too.
As for your question, I think the answer is about the same as why we don't allow children to make their own medical decisions. Children aren't able to make the decisions in their best interest, because they don't have the perspective that would allow them to do so. Same with severe depression -- someone who is severely depressed has a cognitive handicap. (Trust me -- I've been suicidal. There are even times now when I wish I'd succeeded. I'm not throwing that out as a "you crazy people just don't know." I'm saying it as a "this is what I see now, that I couldn't see then, and I'm not sure you can see now...")
Depression is a black beast that hides the world from us. All we can see when it has us in its grips is the little slice of the world it's willing to show us. All the hopeful things are hidden by it. That's why people need to be protected from it and from ourselves when it has us.
From what you've said, it sounds to me as though you're inadequately medicated. Believe it or not -- and I know I never believe it when I'm depressed ;-) -- there really and truly are effective medications out there that don't leave you feeling as flat as you describe. I strongly urge you to look into augmenting whatever you're on, once you get insurance. Actually, I'd urge you to try to find a good psychopharmacologist and pay out of pocket right now -- my experience has been I've been unable to succeed in any job when I'm depressed and inadequately medicated. I'd hate to have you run into trouble because of your depression, especially in a new place, and especially if it interferes with your ability to get treatment for that depression.
Did you get your medication through a psychopharmacologist, or a GP? If you got it from a GP, it's well worth going to a good pdoc -- although they can be hard to find -- simply because GPs just plain don't know enough about the drugs out there. They use a very simple algorithm, and if it fails, they don't know how to find the subtle shadings that pdocs use. They're also much less likely to augment medications that work a little -- they'll often change drugs, rather than adding something too boost them.
There's a medications board here, too, as well as a psychotherapy board. They may be helpful for you, too.
Good luck, and, again, welcome!
Posted by madeline on October 26, 2006, at 13:40:45
In reply to New with an interesting question, posted by LJRen on October 22, 2006, at 1:19:38
You're post is interesting. I think a lot of us here struggle with suicide, it's always kind of there -just hanging out as an option, not necessarily a valid one, but an option nonetheless.
I think suicide is a very bad, very selfish thing to do for a lot of reasons:
1. We don't live in a vacuum. None of us can ever really know what impact our lives have on others. Ever. Even to strangers. A particular look, a thoughtful gesture in the supermarket, a smile -whatever, can sometimes set in motion a series of events that totally alter the course of another human life. We are totally interconnected with each other. The loss of one with the concommitant loss of that smile, that gesture impacts us all. Think of all the times a stranger has "touched" you. We have to live our lives, but to me, they are very much not all about us.
2. You can never, ever know what tomorrow might bring. Tomorrow the sun might hit you in a particular way, or you might get cracked up and have a belly laugh or you may win the lottery or something else good (or bad). To me suicide is the ultimate in saying "I don't care what might happen tomorrow". There might be a scientific breakthrough next week that is just the thing to free you from pain. But guess what? You missed it.
3. Your suffering has meaning. Big time. Even if you have to give it meaning yourself. Just today, by sharing your suffering with me, you have made me think, made me clarify why I love to be alive - what it means for me to truly live. Your suffering did that for me. It has meaning. It affects change. It is NOT for nothing. If we live in total darkness, just imagine how sensitive we become to the light? How beautiful it can be.
I guess what I'm trying to give voice to is hope and how suicide robs people of that hope.
Just my thought. Welcome to babble. I'm glad you dropped by.
Maddie
Posted by tofuemmy on October 26, 2006, at 17:03:20
In reply to Re: New with an.. **Possible trigger above** » LJRen, posted by Phillipa on October 26, 2006, at 12:49:11
It's also possible that some people agree completely but are unwilling to post that for fear of seeming to encourage suicide?
em
Posted by Phillipa on October 26, 2006, at 17:58:50
In reply to Re: New with an.. **Possible trigger above** » Phillipa, posted by tofuemmy on October 26, 2006, at 17:03:20
Em very true. I know one in particular who is seriously contimplating it now but won't post. I e-mail with him. Very sad but he won't even try to see the positive in his life like he's lawyer, has a cat that truly loves him, and a Mother who adores him and they go out a few nights a week for dinner. So you are probably right. Love Phillipa
Posted by Gabbi~G on October 26, 2006, at 18:11:32
In reply to New with an interesting question, posted by LJRen on October 22, 2006, at 1:19:38
Honestly, I've battled with those same questions.
I read, after Spalding Gray committed suicide, a quote from a friend of his who said "I would never expect anyone to live for my sake, a life they found unendurable,"I honestly thought that it was a beautiful thing to say.
There are so many variables though, I think of the effect on children, and wonder..
Sometimes I think, the reason people are so against it, is because they can't understand the horror of depression, but at other times, I think maybe it's because they wonder themselves what the point it, and don't want to question whether or not there is a great purpose to the endurance of suffering.
Posted by Gee on October 26, 2006, at 20:48:22
In reply to Re: New with an.. **Possible trigger above**, posted by LJRen on October 26, 2006, at 8:38:24
Sorry, I'm dealing with a lot today.
I didn't mean to sound mean or anything, I had just found out some bad/sad news.
Sorry
Posted by LJRen on October 26, 2006, at 23:26:24
In reply to Re: New with an.. **Possible trigger above** » LJRen, posted by Gee on October 26, 2006, at 20:48:22
No worries, you didn't sound mean. Sorry about your sad/bad news. Hope all turns out well.
Ren
Posted by LJRen on October 26, 2006, at 23:52:21
In reply to Welcome to Babble! *suicide trigger* » LJRen, posted by Racer on October 26, 2006, at 12:49:13
Thank you, Racer. What you said about depression being a cognitive handicap, I've never heard anyone put it like that before. And that depression hides the world from us, I've never considered. I've always believed I saw the world for what it truly is - pretty crappy. But I can accept the possibility that I can't see beyond my "depression vision".
As for my medication, I've been treated by I don't know how many psychiatrists. Over the past 12 years since I was diagnosed I've been on: amitriptyline, prozac, zoloft, paxil, effexor, lexapro, cymbalta, wellbutrin. My last doc even tried combining wellbutrin w/ paxil. The results have either been virtually no effect at all, or moderate effect that barely gets me by. Currently though, I'm just on wellbutrin. It keeps me from hitting the bottom of the pit of despair at least.
Paxil was the first drug I took that did any good. I noticed a difference in my actual thought patterns. It was bizarre but appreciated. I was able to finish college b/c of it. But once out in the real world, a whole new set of pressures gave the drug a run for its money.
Since then, it's been trial & error with a whole lot of error. I have a well respected engineering degree but after leaving the first 2 jobs after college b/c they made me miserably bored, I then got fired in one year's time from the next 3 jobs b/c, again, I was bored. Took me a year or so to get over that. Took admin jobs, waitressing jobs, valeted cars for a couple of years, worked at Petsmart for the past year & a half, and now I'm at a factory working as a machine operator and as usual, bored out of my mind.
I know a whole lot of what I don't want, but none of what I really do want. That's not true... What I want is to sleep and to be left alone. Unfortunately, being single, that's not an option. Perhaps the depression not only hides part of the world but also part of myself from me. That would explain why I don't feel passionate about anything. I like some things in life. But I have never been able to come up with some interest that is so all consuming or even enjoyable enough that I'd be willing or content to do it 40 hours a week.
I've also been told I'm too smart for my own good. Sometimes, I think being intelligent can be a drawback b/c so much is needed to keep my mind engaged and it has to be diverse b/c any one thing gets old in a matter of days w/ me.
In all honesty, I think my psyche is just one big rat's nest and any therapist would have his work cut out for him in trying to unravel it.
As for my meds, I think I can hold it together until my insurance starts in Jan. I've been through a lot worse over the years. I just hope whatever doc I see can come up w/ something new b/c the last one I had told me I had tried everything out there. Kinda made me feel like I had hit a dead end.
Thanks again Racer.
Ren
Posted by LJRen on October 27, 2006, at 0:32:50
In reply to Re: New with an interesting question » LJRen, posted by madeline on October 26, 2006, at 13:40:45
I'm sorry, I'm don't mean to belittle your point, but unfortunately, giving meaning to suffering doesn't change anything. When you're in a lot of pain, all you want is for that pain to STOP. You don't care if the pain means anything or not. Do you think a soldier in the middle east cares if there's any meaning to the fact that his leg just got blown off from a land mine he stepped on? Doubtful.
And if I was born here on earth, and put through all the hell I've been through in my life, just so I could share it with you so that you could see why you love to be alive.... well, I'm sorry, this is gonna sound selfish, but I think the cosmos could've saved me all that grief and you could've gone out, smelled a flower and gotten the same result.
My pain isn't about you or strangers or anyone else. It's my pain and if it doesn't cease and there's no end in sight, then shouldn't I have to continue to endure it. Isn't that we put pets to sleep? Because they're in pain and we can't stop it?
And perhaps we do affect a few select people in the world during our lives. I'm pretty sure with all the trillions of people who live on this planet, that in the possible lack of my existence there would be any number of individuals the cosmos would choose to substitute for me. As my mother often recited to me, the world does not revolve around me, so the world would not stop turning just b/c I wasn't here.
Thank you for response. I'm sorry I didn't have anything more positive to say. The curse of depression vision I guess.
Ren
Posted by Racer on October 27, 2006, at 10:23:14
In reply to Re: Welcome to Babble! *suicide trigger* » Racer, posted by LJRen on October 26, 2006, at 23:52:21
>
> As for my meds, I think I can hold it together until my insurance starts in Jan. I just hope whatever doc I see can come up w/ something new b/c the last one I had told me I had tried everything out there. Kinda made me feel like I had hit a dead end.I'd say you did hit a dead end -- with that pdoc. You certainly haven't even come close to a cul de sac in terms of medications, though, let alone a dead end. Not only are there a dozen combinations that I can think of -- and I don't know nearly as much as other people here about meds -- but there are even single drugs you've never tried, if your list is comprehensive. In fact, there are CLASSES of drugs you've not tried yet. I hope that gives you some hope.
You don't mention how old you are, nor what "bored" looks like for you. I'm thinking there's more going on than maybe you're aware of. What you're calling "bored" might be residual depression, might be part of an anxiety disorder, might be a symptom of ADD, might be a sign that there's something physical going on. Most of those are treatable. I hope your new pdoc will check for ALL of those.
Good luck to you.
I do want to point something out to you, though: this site does have guidelines about what can be posted, and what maybe should be considered twice. You can find all the information about what qualifies as what in the FAQ -- http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html -- and some of what you've written about suicide might qualify as something that at least needs a warning in the subject line, so that people who are triggered by the topic can protect themselves by not reading. There are a few other things, too, that I think are helpful to be aware of, so I'm offering you the link. I'd hate to see you asked to play nicely, when you're new and don't know any of the rules, you know?
Take care. I hope things improve for you soon. (And Paxil and Wellbutrin should be a good combo? It didn't work?)
Posted by Gabbi~G on October 27, 2006, at 12:37:57
In reply to Re: Welcome to Babble! *suicide trigger* » Racer, posted by LJRen on October 26, 2006, at 23:52:21
Shame on me, I should have read your post more thoroughly. I agree with Racer, anyone who tells you you've tried "all the meds out there" is wrong. I *used* to have the best psychopharmacologist, and he would take sometimes combinations of three or four medications, and tweak them every 6 months or so, and YES you can feel entirely differently.
And I have. I never ever would have believed it.
I can't even describe the difference, as depression is so hard to describe..My rather somber response was due to the fact that the place I live now is not nearly so progressive and flinch (or refuse) at prescribe anything but the most currently acceptable medication, as well as a nasty cycle I seem to have gotten into which involves external factors.
Please don't give up, I'm really sorry I hadn't read about the medications you'd tried thoroughly. Mixing Paxil and Wellbutrin that's kidstuff! There is a lot more out there.
It's scary that your life can be decided by the stroke of a Doctors pen.
Posted by madeline on October 27, 2006, at 16:52:38
In reply to Re: New with an interesting question » madeline, posted by LJRen on October 27, 2006, at 0:32:50
I hear what you are saying and respect where you are. You asked a question, I gave you my perpective.
I only ask now that you trust that you are not the only one that has traveled this journey through hell.
There are those of us that have been there and back many many times. It is the nature of the beast.
I also ask that you trust us to help you recognize and reach for the signposts along the way out.
I hope that you will let us show you that there is a way out, there is another place to live.
Perhaps someone, maybe even your mother made you to feel insignificant and unworthy and that is a lesson you learned all too well. But it is untrue. You are a human being, with value and merit simply because you exist.
We all get angry, bitter at the way our lives seem to have betrayed us, but it is at this time that you must trust the most that all can be well and very likely will.
There can be peace.
Maddie
Posted by LJRen on October 28, 2006, at 0:24:55
In reply to Re: New with an interesting question » LJRen, posted by madeline on October 27, 2006, at 16:52:38
Thank you, Maddie. Your input is appreciated.
> Perhaps someone, maybe even your mother made you to feel insignificant and unworthy and that is a lesson you learned all too well. But it is untrue. You are a human being, with value and merit simply because you exist.
You are right about that. But learning the latter of your statement after having the former so deeply ingrained is a very difficult task to say the least. Especially when various people (those close & not so close) continue to treat you as though you don't matter. With ingrained belief comes unbeknownst self destructive behavior which in turn attracts the poor treatment from others. But if one is not aware specifically what behavior is self destructive, then one can't do anything to change for the better.
> We all get angry, bitter at the way our lives seem to have betrayed us, but it is at this time that you must trust the most that all can be well and very likely will.
>I will continue to try. But as more & more time passes w/o change the harder & harder it gets to have hope that anything will be well. It's only been a dozen years since I was officially diagnosed but I can honestly say I've never been a happy person, even as a kid.
I've been dealt an undesirable hand in life. I'm just having a very difficult time figuring out why I survived a near death car accident at the age of 17 if what I've experience afterwards is predominately painful. Life is hard enough as it is. I shouldn't have to go through it feeling emotionally like crap all the time.
I do have a little restored faith in possible drug therapy now that I've learned I actually haven't tried everything out there like my previous pdoc said I had. So, I'll see in 3-4 months where I'm at.
Ren
Posted by Racer on October 29, 2006, at 11:16:39
In reply to Re: New with an interesting question » madeline, posted by LJRen on October 28, 2006, at 0:24:55
>> I've been dealt an undesirable hand in life.
Honestly, I think if you asked around on this board, you wouldn't find anyone with a desirable hand in life. There are people here with horror stories behind them, those with those magical childhoods the rest of us dream of, and everything in between. The one thing we have in common, though, is that we're all trying to do the best we can with what we got. It's all we can do, and it can be pretty awful at times.
I won't go into my own history too much, but it includes a near-fatal car accident at 4, leaving me unable to walk for a very long time; abuse; neglect; school and social problems through childhood and adolescence; etc. And I'm older than you are, and didn't finish college. You'll find that you share a great deal in common with people here -- from those with advanced degrees in fields they're not working in, to those who've had head injuries in the past, to those who have had no visible challenges -- and are still depressed.
I'm sorry if any of that sounds harsh. I guess I wanted to show you that you really aren't anywhere near hopeless in your current situation. Trust me: I've lived in Hopeless, and the landscape is nothing like this. ;-)
Good luck.
Posted by Poet on October 29, 2006, at 11:25:56
In reply to New with an interesting question, posted by LJRen on October 22, 2006, at 1:19:38
Hi Ren,
I found Babble three years ago in search of information on committing suicide. That I'm still here shows how helpful this site is.
Meds help. Therapy helps. Recently getting a job that uses my brain really helps my depression, anxiety and all that ails me.
Once your insurance kicks in, start the search for a pdoc who can help you find the right med. I see a pdoc who is a psychopharmacologist and I initially balked at taking an antipsychotic (Seroquel) for my chronic insomnia. I'm actually sorry I refused to try it for so many months because it works.
I'm dysthymic so on some level I'm always depressed, but right now I'm feeling the best I've felt in year. Don't give up on yourself.
Welcome to Babble. You'll like it here.
Poet
Posted by LJRen on October 29, 2006, at 14:33:15
In reply to I'm sorry to say this... » LJRen, posted by Racer on October 29, 2006, at 11:16:39
Thank you Racer for broadening my perspective about this place. I'm still not sure what to expect. I haven't come across many people in my life who suffer from depression so this is new for me. All the friends I have from college had it fairly easy and just don't understand me. And you get used to not having anybody to relate to. My bitter & edginess has nothing to do w/ you or anyone here, just my defense mechanisms kicking in.
Thanks,
Ren
Posted by LJRen on October 29, 2006, at 14:48:47
In reply to Re: An interesting question (Trigger) » LJRen, posted by Poet on October 29, 2006, at 11:25:56
> Meds help.
> Once your insurance kicks in, start the search for a pdoc who can help you find the right med.I know they can. At least they do at first, then my body overtakes them, so I have to move on to something else. I look forward to seeing a new pdoc since learning there are more drug therapies out there I haven't tried. But as with any long running war, you get tired of fighting the constant battle when there are no guarantees out there.
> Welcome to Babble. You'll like it here.
Thank you. It's one avenue I haven't tried, so it's worth a shot.
Ren
Posted by Phillipa on October 29, 2006, at 19:50:13
In reply to Re: An interesting question » Poet, posted by LJRen on October 29, 2006, at 14:48:47
Can I suggest posting this on the main board? The meds board. The experts are usually there. Until your insurance kicks in can you go to a local agency with a sliding scale so you can start? My best therapist ever was in an agency and not private. And I know a lot of people receive excellent care from the pdocs there too. But don't discount the GP's as some will spend more time with you. Ask around one may love dealing with psch and be very knowledgeable. Love Phillipa
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.