![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 73. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 16:07:50
Opinions?
Transcript of the speech given by filmactor/writer/director/producer Tim
Robbins to the
National Press Club in Washington DC on Tuesday, April15, 2003.
TIM ROBBINS: Thank you. And thanks for the invitation. I had originally been
asked here to talk about the war and our current political situation, but I
have instead chosen to hijack this opportunity and talk about baseball and show
business. (Laughter.) Just
kidding. Sort of.
I can't tell you how moved I have been at the overwhelming support I have
received from newspapers throughout the country in these past few days. I hold
no illusions that all of these journalists agree with me on my views against
the war. While the journalists'
outrage at the cancellation of our appearance in Cooperstown is not about my
views, it is about my right to express these views. I am extremely grateful
that there are those of you out there still with a fierce belief in
constitutionally guaranteed rights. We need you, the press, now more than ever.
This is a crucial moment for all of us.
For all of the ugliness and tragedy of 9-11, there was a brief period afterward
where I held a great hope, in the midst of the tears and shocked faces of New
Yorkers, in the midst of the lethal air we breathed as we worked at Ground
Zero, in the midst of my children's terror at being so close to this crime
against humanity, in the midst of all this, I held on to a glimmer of hope in
the naive assumption that something good could come out of it.
I imagined our leaders seizing upon this moment of unity in America, this
moment when no one wanted to talk about Democrat versus Republican, white
versus black, or any of the other ridiculous divisions that dominate our public
discourse. I imagined our leaders
going on television telling the citizens that although we all want to be at
Ground Zero, we can't, but there is work that is needed to be done all over
America. Our help is needed at community centers to tutor children, to teach
them to read. Our work is needed at old-age homes to visit the lonely and
infirmed; in gutted neighborhoods to rebuild housing and clean up parks, and
convert abandoned lots to baseball fields. I imagined leadership that would
take this incredible energy, this generosity of spirit and create a new unity
in America born out of the chaos and tragedy of 9/11, a new unity that would
send a message to terrorists everywhere: If you attack us, we will
become stronger, cleaner, better educated, and more unified. You will
strengthen our commitment to justice and democracy by your inhumane attacks on
us. Like a Phoenix out of the fire, we will be reborn.
And then came the speech: You are either with us or against us. And the bombing
began. And the old paradigm was restored as our leader encouraged us to show
our patriotism by shopping and by volunteering to join groups that would turn
in their neighbor for any
suspicious behavior.
In the 19 months since 9-11, we have seen our democracy compromised by fear and
hatred. Basic inalienable rights, due process, the sanctity of the home have
been quickly compromised in a climate of fear. A unified American public has
grown bitterly divided, and a world population that had profound sympathy and
support for us has grown contemptuous and distrustful, viewing us as we once
viewed the Soviet Union, as a rogue state.
This past weekend, Susan and I and the three kids went to Florida for a family
reunion of sorts. Amidst the alcohol and the dancing, sugar-rushing children,
there was, of course, talk of the war. And the most frightening thing about the
weekend was the amount of
times we were thanked for speaking out against the war because that individual
speaking thought it unsafe to do so in their own community, in their own life.
Keep talking, they said; I haven't been able to open my mouth.
A relative tells me that a history teacher tells his 11-year-old son, my
nephew, that Susan Sarandon is endangering the troops by her opposition to the
war. Another teacher in a different school asks our niece if we are coming to
the school play. They're not welcome here, said the molder of young minds.
Another relative tells me of a school board decision to cancel a civics event
that was proposing to have a moment of silence for those who have died in the
war because the students were including dead Iraqi civilians in their silent
prayer.
A teacher in another nephew's school is fired for wearing a T-shirt with a
peace sign on it. And a friend of the family tells of listening to the radio
down South as the talk radio host calls for the murder of a prominent anti-war
activist. Death threats have appeared on other prominent anti-war activists'
doorsteps for their views. Relatives of ours have received threatening e-mails
and phone calls. And my 13-year-old boy, who has done nothing to anybody, has
recently been embarrassed and humiliated by a sadistic creep who writes -- or,
rather, scratches his column with his fingernails in dirt.
Susan and I have been listed as traitors, as supporters of Saddam, and various
other epithets by the Aussie gossip rags masquerading as newspapers, and by
their 'fair' and 'balanced' electronic media cousins, 19th Century Fox.
(Laughter.) Apologies to Gore Vidal. (Applause.)
Two weeks ago, the United Way canceled Susan's appearance at a conference on
women's leadership. And both of us last week were told that both we and the
First Amendment were not welcome at the Baseball Hall of Fame.
A famous middle-aged rock-and-roller called me last week to thank me for
speaking out against the war, only to go on to tell me that he could not speak
himself because he fears repercussions from Clear Channel. "They promote our
concert appearances," he said. "They own most of the stations that play our
music. I can't come out against this war."
And here in Washington, Helen Thomas finds herself banished to the back of the
room and uncalled on after asking Ari Fleischer whether our showing prisoners
of war at Guantanamo Bay on television violated the Geneva Convention.
A chill wind is blowing in this nation. A message is being sent through the
White House and its allies in talk radio and Clear Channel and Cooperstown. If
you oppose this administration, there can and will be ramifications.
Every day, the air waves are filled with warnings, veiled and unveiled threats,
spewed invective and hatred directed at any voice of dissent. And the public,
like so many relatives and friends that I saw this weekend, sit in mute
opposition and fear.
I am sick of hearing about Hollywood being against this war. Hollywood's heavy
hitters, the real power brokers and cover-of-the-magazine stars, have been
largely silent on this issue. But Hollywood, the concept, has always been a
popular target.
I remember when the Columbine High School shootings happened. President Clinton
criticized Hollywood for contributing to this terrible tragedy -- this, as we
were dropping bombs over Kosovo. Could the violent actions of our leaders
contribute somewhat to the
violent fantasies of our teenagers? Or is it all just Hollywood and rock and
roll?
I remember reading at the time that one of the shooters had tried to enlist to
fight the real war a week before he acted out his war in real life at
Columbine. I talked about this in the press at the time. And curiously, no one
accused me of being unpatriotic for criticizing Clinton. In fact, the same
radio patriots that call us traitors today engaged in daily personal attacks on
their president during the war in Kosovo.
Today, prominent politicians who have decried violence in movies -- the "Blame
Hollywooders," if you will -- recently voted to give our current president the
power to unleash real violence in our current war. They want us to stop the
fictional violence but are okay with the real kind.
And these same people that tolerate the real violence of war don't want to see
the result of it on the nightly news. Unlike the rest of the world, our news
coverage of this war remains sanitized, without a glimpse of the blood and gore
inflicted upon our soldiers or the women and children in Iraq. Violence as a
concept, an abstraction -- it's very strange.
As we applaud the hard-edged realism of the opening battle scene of "Saving
Private Ryan," we cringe at the thought of seeing the same on the nightly news.
We are told it would be pornographic. We want no part of reality in real life.
We demand that war be painstakingly realized on the screen, but that war remain
imagined and conceptualized in real life.
And in the midst of all this madness, where is the political opposition? Where
have all the Democrats gone? Long time passing, long time ago. (Applause.) With
apologies to Robert Byrd, I have to say it is pretty embarrassing to live in a
country where a five-foot- one comedian has more guts than most politicians.
(Applause.) We need leaders, not pragmatists that cower before the spin zones
of former entertainment journalists. We need leaders who can understand the
Constitution, congressman who don't in a moment of fear abdicate their most
important power, the right to declare war to the executive branch. And, please,
can we please stop the congressional sing-a-longs? (Laughter.)
In this time when a citizenry applauds the liberation of a country as it lives
in fear of its own freedom, when an administration official releases an attack
ad questioning the patriotism of a legless Vietnam veteran running for
Congress, when people all over the country fear reprisal if they use their
right to free speech, it is time to get angry. It is time to get fierce. And it
doesn't take much to shift the tide. My 11-year-old nephew, mentioned earlier,
a shy kid who never talks in class, stood up to his history teacher who was
questioning Susan's patriotism. "That's my aunt you're talking about. Stop it."
And the stunned teacher backtracks and began stammering compliments in
embarrassment.
Sportswriters across the country reacted with such overwhelming fury at the
Hall of Fame that the president of the Hall admitted he made a mistake and
Major League Baseball disavowed any connection to the actions of the Hall's
president. A bully can be stopped, and so can a mob. It takes one person with
the courage and a resolute voice.
The journalists in this country can battle back at those who would rewrite our
Constitution in Patriot Act II, or "Patriot, The Sequel," as we would call it
in Hollywood. We are counting on you to star in that movie. Journalists can
insist that they not be used as
publicists by this administration. (Applause.) The next White House
correspondent to be called on by Ari Fleischer should defer their question to
the back of the room, to the banished journalist du jour. (Applause.) And any
instance of intimidation to free speech should be battled against. Any
acquiescence or intimidation at this point will only lead to more intimidation.
You have, whether you like it or not, an awesome responsibility and an awesome
power: the fate of discourse, the health of this republic is in your hands,
whether you write on the left or the right.
This is your time, and the destiny you have chosen.
We lay the continuance of our democracy on your desks, and count on your pens
to be mightier. Millions are watching and waiting in mute frustration and hope -
hoping for someone to defend the spirit and letter of our Constitution, and to
defy the intimidation that is
visited upon us daily in the name of national security and warped notions of
patriotism.
Our ability to disagree, and our inherent right to question our leaders and
criticize their actions define who we are. To allow those rights to be taken
away out of fear, to punish people for their beliefs, to limit access in the
news media to differing opinions is to acknowledge our democracy's defeat.
These are challenging times. There is a wave of hate that seeks to divide us --
right and left, pro-war and anti-war. In the name of my 11-year-old nephew, and
all the other unreported victims of this hostile and unproductive environment
of fear, let us try to find our common ground as a nation. Let us celebrate
this grand and glorious experiment that has survived for 227 years. To do so we
must honor and fight vigilantly for the things that unite us -- like freedom,
the First Amendment and, yes, baseball. (Applause.)
Event Date: April 15, 2003
Event Name: Tim Robbins
Event Type: NPC
Luncheon Time: 12:30 PM
Sponsored by: National Press Club (NPC)
Event Location: Ballroom
Details: Actor/Director Tim Robbins and Win Without War
-----(end)------i thank you for your patience.
Peace,
~ jim
Posted by gabbix2 on April 17, 2003, at 17:12:55
In reply to Win without War (very long), posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 16:07:50
Posted by fayeroe on April 17, 2003, at 17:48:57
In reply to Win without War (very long), posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 16:07:50
rave on, lil jimi, rave on! we can be patriots for peace without ever picking up a weapon and we can criticize our elected officials whenever we want. this is America! and over at the Other site, if the Dixie Chicks want to dance on May Day....as one of the moderators+++i say "come on down, Dixie Chicks!".........i support anyone's right to speak out! peace, pat
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 17:54:35
In reply to Win without War (very long), posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 16:07:50
remember tim in "arlington road"..
"terrorism, pretty frightening topic"..that movie should stay in our minds forever...its not what it seems..never has been..history is written by one view..how will our kids kids read about"shock and awe"..?
tim .he is one of my favourites..
remember him in "jacobs ladder"...too cool
in true peace
j
Posted by white rabbit on April 17, 2003, at 19:00:55
In reply to Win without War (very long), posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 16:07:50
What I want to know is: how come we care so much about what "celebrities" think? Who gives a damn what they think? Imagine the world being run by a deep thinker like Anna Nicole Smith (shudder).
While I have nothing against Tim, and would value his opinion on, say, acting or film producing, his opinion on Iraq is no more important that yours or mine. Damn skippy.
It's shameful that the rich and famous are so respected while the traditional system of honoring one's elders (like myself) for their wisdom and experience has been abandoned.
-Gracie
P.S. What month is this?
Posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 19:18:55
In reply to Re: Win without War (very long), posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 17:54:35
> remember tim in "arlington road"..
> "terrorism, pretty frightening topic"..that movie should stay in our minds forever...its not what it seems..never has been..history is written by one view..how will our kids kids read about"shock and awe"..?
> tim .he is one of my favourites..
> remember him in "jacobs ladder"...too cool
> in true peace
> jjyl,
you know tim robbins' work much better than i do ... "bob roberts" is the only one i recall ... i work in an audio visual library so i can search the collection and see what we have of his ... "arlington road" and "jacob's ladder" are now at the top of my list... thanks for the future viewing suggestions ... for an actor, robbins is extraordinarily wise ...
.... thank you! .... for your reply
.... and your laugh ...
true peace to you too,
~ jp.s. may i be your fan ?
Posted by jane d on April 17, 2003, at 19:20:49
In reply to Win without War (very long), posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 16:07:50
Posted by fayeroe on April 17, 2003, at 19:32:17
In reply to Re: Win without War , posted by white rabbit on April 17, 2003, at 19:00:55
i think that the speech was posted because it represents an example of how divided our country is on the war and this was a who is highly visible. he has the right to his opinion just as much as i have the right to mine.
i didn't see where jim said that he valued his opinion because he was a celebrity. i valued one of your posts about your pakistani psychiatrist because i thought it was funny. and i don't know if you are a celebrity or not. but i have that right to form my own opinion of what i value. respectfully, pat
Posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 19:50:04
In reply to Re: Win without War , posted by white rabbit on April 17, 2003, at 19:00:55
> What I want to know is: how come we care so much about what "celebrities" think? Who gives a damn what they think? Imagine the world being run by a deep thinker like Anna Nicole Smith (shudder).
>
> While I have nothing against Tim, and would value his opinion on, say, acting or film producing, his opinion on Iraq is no more important that yours or mine. Damn skippy.
>
> It's shameful that the rich and famous are so respected while the traditional system of honoring one's elders (like myself) for their wisdom and experience has been abandoned.
> -Gracie
> P.S. What month is this?hi gracie,
i have to agree that if any folks are (and some apparently are) given respect just because they are celebrities or rich or famous, that that is a bad thing ... always. ... the list of those with fame, celebrity and wealth, But No clue is too long to begin here....
And while i do honor my elders (such as yourself) for their wisdom and experience ..... i do Not believe that i should confer respect to those who are old and experienced Just because they may happen to be my elders.
in both cases, without regard for for age or wealth or fame or experience, i expect my respect to be earned .... and the price i'm charging is **wisdom**.
mister robbins, by the words he has offered us, has earned my respect with his wisdom .... which is, as you have suggested, the standard for respect ... and IMHO, mr. robbins just happens to be surpringly wise, especially for a rich and famous celebrity.
peace and wisdom,
~ jimp.s. mmmmmmmmm, april?
Posted by jane d on April 17, 2003, at 19:54:02
In reply to Re: Win without War (very long) » lil' jimi, posted by fayeroe on April 17, 2003, at 17:48:57
> rave on, lil jimi, rave on! we can be patriots for peace without ever picking up a weapon and we can criticize our elected officials whenever we want. this is America! and over at the Other site, if the Dixie Chicks want to dance on May Day....as one of the moderators+++i say "come on down, Dixie Chicks!".........i support anyone's right to speak out! peace, pat
Pat,
Just because you can speak out doesn't mean that there aren't places where you should restrain yourself. I think that this board is one of those places. What I get from this board is not support for my politics, or the fun of a good fight, but a chance to share experiences with people who understand the "other" part of my life. The one I can't talk about when I'm talking about politics with friends. A place where I wouldn't be shunned for commenting on the strange feeling of listening to terrorism warnings and being unable to care because .... hey, not living seems like a good idea, or just because caring is too much work that day. Or not being afraid because nothing is as frightening to me as realizing I can't rely on myself.
This isn't really about the philosophy of having people with as many different views as possible represented though I do believe in that. It's simple pragmatism. Even here, where I've had more of what someone called "aha" moments then anywhere else there are far too few posts where I realize someone has had my exact experience with a job, or socially, or with their dishes, and if we drive from the board all those posters with one kind of politics or even all those posters who don't feel very strongly about politics (or do) then the chances of my finding more "aha" posts to read go way down.
I admit that I might feel differently if it was politics I had no chance to discuss in my everyday life but I think you've provided a solution for that by making politics a welcome subject on the other board.
Jane
PS. Thank you for providing the link to your board again on Admin.
Posted by jane d on April 17, 2003, at 19:56:05
In reply to Re: Win without War , posted by white rabbit on April 17, 2003, at 19:00:55
See. The board is honoring you. You just don't recognize your own forcefulness. :-)
Posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 19:56:55
In reply to Re: Win without War (very long) » lil' jimi, posted by fayeroe on April 17, 2003, at 17:48:57
Posted by jane d on April 17, 2003, at 20:08:49
In reply to Re: Win without War , posted by white rabbit on April 17, 2003, at 19:00:55
> What I want to know is: how come we care so much about what "celebrities" think? Who gives a damn what they think? Imagine the world being run by a deep thinker like Anna Nicole Smith (shudder).
WR,
I agree. Those weren't exactly deep thoughts in that speech. Still, it bothers me that he had appearances cancelled because of his opinions. I wonder if that is how he ended up speaking to the National Press Club. Was inviting him an editorial comment on the other censorship in which case it's great or did they just see a chance to get a celebrity in? The attempted boycott of the Dixie Chicks bothered me to. Hey, I LIKE the Dixie Chicks! How could you not like them after "Goodbye, Earl"?
Jane
P.S. Does the name "Dixie Chicks" make anybody else cringe?
Posted by lostsailor on April 17, 2003, at 20:11:11
In reply to Win without War (very long), posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 16:07:50
I read some here and there. I am so mixed up but well informed on all this, so I don't want anyone to think I don't care or am not concerned.
I will say that usually I swing to the moderately far left politically, but do not just vote party only. If an R is doing something I think will work, I'll pull the switch ect….
I support our troops.... I am lost.
Crimson, white and indigo seem, for now, surreal colors. Yet while running, cycling I find a prayer in heart or a brief salute in "necessary”
"Living" in Canada on and off may have helped with this a bit, as is the mass marketing of the colors. Did Betsy Rose and Francis Scott Key have all this in mind??
I am lost...
In peace, ~tony
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 20:31:33
In reply to Re: Win without War , posted by white rabbit on April 17, 2003, at 19:00:55
gracie,
i think you can see why people can be so biggoted..
i love what "tim"stands for but would listen and respect your view more because i know you better?
does that make heads or tail?
some peoples worlds are smaller..out spoken people can project ones desires..?
ramble ramble..
my heroes are not "movie stars"mine are "my stars"
like my mom..
peace
j
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 20:49:02
In reply to Re war and meall, posted by lostsailor on April 17, 2003, at 20:11:11
tony..
i can soo relate.."r" will do what "r"thinks will get votes..
if "r"is liberal and the masses need social programs(unemployment,,welfare).."r"will be in control..
if "r"is ,,,,,anything else,,and the masses are all above that poverty line,,its tax breaks for all,,
does it really matter what we call them(their dx)
no..where is the majority..the money..what can we say to get the vote...
peace
j
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 20:57:00
In reply to Re: what celebrities think » white rabbit, posted by jane d on April 17, 2003, at 20:08:49
i agree,,
but(always a but or i wouldnt reply)
if i stood up at my kids science fair at school and proclaimed"down with war..or nixon..or anything else .."
wouldnt people say"what a freak..dont ask her to speak at the graduation.."some will say..or think.."wow,,i agree..good for you..its on our minds..and you have the right to adress it..because i wasnt asked to speak....."
..
peace
j
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 21:35:57
In reply to Re: Politics again » fayeroe, posted by jane d on April 17, 2003, at 19:54:02
hummm,,
i think any place ,any forum,any medium,is the time and the place to be expressive..
oh no johnny ,dont talk about racial differences,this is a white school..
oh no johnny, you cant sing that song about jewish families here,,this is not the place to be yourself..and a jew.
oh no johnny,you cant tell the world you are gay at the podium,,too policical
johnny shut up..you are only good at acting..
you have a beautiful voice but stop singing about war,what is it good for.....
j
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 21:49:35
In reply to Re: Win without War » white rabbit, posted by fayeroe on April 17, 2003, at 19:32:17
thats the point faye..
just that he is popular,,does not mean he has to shut-up..
he can stand tall on his beliefs..
as you can..declaring your voice in your kitchen..
lets be ourselves..
"lets not judge the voices of the night..."
or the world would be silent
j
Posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 21:55:24
In reply to Re war and meall, posted by lostsailor on April 17, 2003, at 20:11:11
> I read some here and there. I am so mixed up but well informed on all this, so I don't want anyone to think I don't care or am not concerned.
>
> I will say that usually I swing to the moderately far left politically, but do not just vote party only. If an R is doing something I think will work, I'll pull the switch ect….
>
> I support our troops.... I am lost.
>
> Crimson, white and indigo seem, for now, surreal colors. Yet while running, cycling I find a prayer in heart or a brief salute in "necessary”
>
> "Living" in Canada on and off may have helped with this a bit, as is the mass marketing of the colors. Did Betsy Rose and Francis Scott Key have all this in mind??
>
> I am lost...
>
> In peace, ~tonyhi tone-man,
thanks for your post . ... great to have you reply here.
these kind of issues can cause stress, so i wouldn't want to get anybody's neurotransmitters all wadded up into bunches or anything ... these are heavy issues .... it takes a certain kind of strenght to raise them ...and they bring a certain kind of tension of their own ... their expression can foster more stressin' ... and sometimes the strain may make us get focused on the style or tone or colors ... which isn't a bad thing if it's not hurtful ... there is more than one way to see our current events ... . and those varieties of view can create a challenge ... to our heads... to our hearts .... to our spirits ... and we may Or may not be well for those challenges.
i wouldn't want to offend anyone who was not able or willing to consider the alternatives and options and various world views which may not be to their taste(s) or liking.. .... but would not they be able to Not have to read this particular thread? ... does that kind of concern compell one to have to be silent?
it is when i think that one view is being surpressed that, i feel, a disservice is being done to our prespective on the issues ..... and i feel there are those who would be happier if they could hear only one voice ... as long as they may choose that voice.... i think we can see where that might be comfortable,... But, i think, we can see where that can cause a bigger problem, .. ..bigger problems.
i support our troops... i have a friend in the combat zone ... my dad and brother were both career air force officers ... i revere our military ... and i love our country ... all of which motivates my need, my urge to broach these issues.
is this not the place where we are allowed to consider and discuss the social, ethical, moral, civil, aesthetic .... and politcal aspects of human experience ? Is one of these so much more challenging than the others that we may not speak of it .... at all ..... least we dare offend?
we are challenged to be civil here.... may we discuss whether or not i have been civil by bringing up politics as a subject for consideration? .... and is politics even the issue mr. robbins expresses, so much as the issue of free speech? .... even if the issue is "just" politics, am i being so uncivil here?
i would want to be civil and therefore, i apologize to anyone who i may have offended ... but would it be uncivil to expect the sensitive to, or to ask the more sensitive to ..... avert their eyes that i might not offend them ?
is that uncivil?
i would only hope that i might be allowed to ask that for those who would want to accept the challenge of opening this sort of discussion that we all engage with clear minds and open hearts each other's visions, that we might better understand .... each other, if not neccessarily the issue(s).
... if that is too much to expect and the powers-that-be deign this uncivil of me, then i shall fold my tent and vanish in to the night of silence .... and i will be okay.... even if it were offensive to my sensibilities.can you help me out tony? you're the sailor... what do you think?
i am lost ....
~ jim
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 22:07:54
In reply to Re: Re war and meall » lostsailor, posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 21:55:24
good jimi,
this is a social format..
we should be expressive..angry..offended..turned on..pissed off....
need i say more..
all my sunshine and lollipops are used up..
so tired of being passive
peace-real peace
j
Posted by Dinah on April 17, 2003, at 22:24:01
In reply to Re: Re war and meall » lil' jimi, posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 22:07:54
Different people just have different ideas about how to go about getting it.
Did Chamberlain gain peace when Hitler chased him around the table?
Is lack of war the same as peace?
Peace at all costs?
Continuing the sanctions that hurt the Iraqi people was better than ending a brutal dictatorship? Yeah, how about another ten years of oil for food? Not to mention torture and oppression.
No easy answers.
Posted by lil' jimi on April 18, 2003, at 0:02:29
In reply to Re: Re war and meall » lil' jimi, posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 22:07:54
> good jimi,
> this is a social format..
> we should be expressive..angry..offended..turned on..pissed off....
> need i say more..
> all my sunshine and lollipops are used up..
> so tired of being passive
> peace-real peace
> jjust,
i wanted to cram all this into the subject line, to be discreet .... wouldn't fit .... tony's message awaken me...your's too .... no, you needn't say more ...... your silence speaks ... .. swears ... i'd miss your sunshine .... fire, lightning ... get some rest ... long days ahead.
i can be social.
listening for jyl,
~ jimi
p.s. anger, .... bold as love....
Posted by leeran on April 18, 2003, at 0:05:29
In reply to Re: Win without War (very long), posted by justyourlaugh on April 17, 2003, at 17:54:35
I have always liked Tim Robbins since seeing him in the Shawshank Redemption and for awhile he was probably my favorite actor.
We saw him one day in Santa Monica at a skateboard shop with his son. I was so shocked at how tall he is (out of curiosity I just looked it up - 6' 5" tall).
I forgot about that movie Jacobs Ladder until you just mentioned it, JYL.
As a semi-addict to conspiracy theory websites (much to my husband's chagrin) I agree with you totally JYL: "it's not what it seems . . . never has been."
My husband has been known to say the following: "I love my country but I don't necessarily trust my government." In fact, I just told my husband at dinner that I've probably never been as confused politically (and perhaps in a lot of other ways as well :) than I am right now.
HOWEVER, I love my country and support our troops 110% - and I watch Fox News, listen to AM radio in the car and read controversial conspiracy theory websites just so I can keep myself totally off-guard ;)
I like to keep myself guessing because what other choice do we really have?
Posted by jane d on April 18, 2003, at 0:16:01
In reply to Re: Re war and meall » lostsailor, posted by lil' jimi on April 17, 2003, at 21:55:24
> it is when i think that one view is being surpressed that, i feel, a disservice is being done to our prespective on the issues ..... and i feel there are those who would be happier if they could hear only one voice ... as long as they may choose that voice.... i think we can see where that might be comfortable,... But, i think, we can see where that can cause a bigger problem, .. ..bigger problems.
justyourlaugh,
I absolutely agree. It's a vice of both sides unfortunately.
> we are challenged to be civil here.... may we discuss whether or not i have been civil by bringing up politics as a subject for consideration? .... and is politics even the issue mr. robbins expresses, so much as the issue of free speech? .... even if the issue is "just" politics, am i being so uncivil here?I personally don't think that bringing up the subject of politics in uncivil. I do think that before this thread is over it will end up in other people being uncivil. And I think that's sad. And yes, I thought he was mostly talking about free speech too.
> i would want to be civil and therefore, i apologize to anyone who i may have offended ... but would it be uncivil to expect the sensitive to, or to ask the more sensitive to ..... avert their eyes that i might not offend them ?
I'm a big fan of "just don't read it" if you don't like it.
> i would only hope that i might be allowed to ask that for those who would want to accept the challenge of opening this sort of discussion that we all engage with clear minds and open hearts each other's visions, that we might better understand .... each other, if not neccessarily the issue(s).
> ... if that is too much to expect and the powers-that-be deign this uncivil of me, then i shall fold my tent and vanish in to the night of silence .... and i will be okay.... even if it were offensive to my sensibilities.I don't think you need to worry about the "powers that be". And I hope you can get the kind of discussion that you are looking for. But the recent threads don't make me optimistic about it. I also worry that when you have these discussions with people with whom you have not already established a strong relationship that you don't end up knowing them better - but less well. Good luck.
Jane
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