![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mmcasey on April 15, 2003, at 9:02:01
Do you guys really think that someday, through medication,
therapy, personal growth and development, or whatever else...
that SOMEDAY we will all truly be okay??It is a question that I struggle with constantly.
Posted by justyourlaugh on April 15, 2003, at 9:44:41
In reply to question about our futures, posted by mmcasey on April 15, 2003, at 9:02:01
mm,
i believe so,
but i dont want to become something i am not.
we have a "passion" about us that makes us who we are and that drives us.
can we find it beneath the sadness and delusions?
how will you know if you stop looking?
i want to kill off the lows and dangerous highs that can destroy life,not the wonderful "gifts"
we have been blessed with.
peace
jyl
..hey i appear to be quite possitive today!
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on April 15, 2003, at 10:58:57
In reply to question about our futures, posted by mmcasey on April 15, 2003, at 9:02:01
> Do you guys really think that someday, through medication,
> therapy, personal growth and development, or whatever else...
> that SOMEDAY we will all truly be okay??
-----------------------Personally, I don't think I'll ever be okay or normal in a continuous way. I forsee myself always having spates of bad days, strange days, and good days. Medicine, I feel, is mostly a continuous and evolving way to attempt to address the imbalances in our heads. By their nature, they're not very elegant or predictable in their interactions with the brain, but if they can result in a more functional state of mind than I was experiencing prior, that's fine.
I see the main problem being the lack of real understanding on the part of drug companies/doctors about how the brain actually operates, what dysfunctions are caused by, and how to diagnose those problems correctly.
I see taking ADs as much like a diabetic using insulin. It doesn't cure the problem, it doesn't address it in any really refined way, but it does offer some relief. Ideally, there'd be a cure for anxiety or bipolar, but in the long meantime, we can at least look forward to drugs with more refined side effect profiles, better algorithms for prescription, and drugs that act on different/more refined targets in the brain. Look at the progress in the last 20 years.
I'll be happy if, 20 years hence, I can take a single pill a day that has no side effects, is appropriate for my symptomology, and offers a more robust response.
Posted by leeran on April 15, 2003, at 11:03:58
In reply to question about our futures, posted by mmcasey on April 15, 2003, at 9:02:01
“Do you guys really think that someday, through medication, therapy, personal growth and development, or whatever else... that SOMEDAY we will all truly be okay??
Hey, mmcasey, I think about this quite a bit, too.
I try to think back to when I wasn't "depressed" and I realize it was when I did aerobics all the time (obsessively) and was married to my first husband (we were miserable together) and I made a lot more money.
Hmmmmm, then, I think about that and say, "wow, I thought I wasn't depressed but I probably was."
Then, I think - okay, what about when I was in college, way back when. I was happy then, right? Then I remember a lot of dark moments when anything my boyfriend (became my first husband) did could send me under the covers (and not in a good way) and anything anyone said could hurt me for days. Well, darn. I must have been depressed then, too.
Okay, so I rewind the reel a little further back. High school. I was such a geek, and I don't say that lightly. It's true. I knew it then and I know it now. I didn't know how to fit in and didn't want to try too hard to do so because it might end up that I would get hurt. Well, examining that era didn't work in my favor - same result.
Junior high. Even bigger geek. Had a "progressive" shag haircut and this jerk called me "helmet head" every single day in math class (and punctuated it with hitting the back of my chair with his desk) while the teacher just looked at me like "you idiot, aren't you going to defend yourself?" Somehow, it bears mention that after a year of college the word got out that he thought I had really gotten "cute" but by then it didn't matter. The damage was done. Even now, knowing he lives out here in California and about 15 miles from here makes me want to go up there and either kick his butt or ask him if he remembers so clearly the things he said that made every day a living hell or if I'm the only one who remembers (I know the answer to that one :-).
If I walk down the memory path to grade school I remember feeling like winter would never end and hated gym class because I was always the last one chosen (not kidding, it's true - my father was a p.e. teacher/football coach at the high school but I was like the guy in "Best in Show" with two left feet). I also greatly resented the fact that I always got the sticks in music class and never got the tambourine (was this the beginning of PMS - poor me syndrome?). Oh yeah, and math made my head spin. I had a psychic moment in third grade when I thought "oh no, we will start multiplication today" - and we did, so I felt my doom was pre-destined.
There was second grade - when I wrote, "I hate my mother" on a little piece of paper after she had gone to the basement for a week and wouldn't come out. She found it a month or so later and wouldn't speak to me for weeks. That pretty much ruined a good portion of second grade.
In first grade a kid threw up all over the four pushed together desks where I was sitting and my absolute fear of vomiting kicked into full gear and I developed an intense fear of going to school for fear of someone puking. My parents called the school, they called a social worker, my dad spanked me with a yardstick most days before school because I so adamantly didn't want to go, and then finally, the principal of the school (a very old woman from the “old school”) marched me down to her office by the nape of the neck (after about a month of my shenanigans) and told me I would go to school and I would like it and that would be the end of it. To add insult to injury, my parents made me give her a bottle of perfume at the end of the year because, as they put it, "Old ________ (her name), put you in your place and got you straightened out."
Hmmmm again. I suppose the grade school years, in general, weren't so yummy - considering I developed an OCD "thing" where I would have to touch the foot board of my Jenny Lind bed, then the windowsill, then the Jenny Lind foot board again - then lay back down and do it all over again just so things would be "okay" (whatever the heck “okay” was).
Yuck, this is the opposite of "the ten things I love about today" - but I guess, in a way it is the ten things I love about today because so far, it's 9:00 and the worst thing that's happened is that I've eaten a donut and a half and haven't yet taken a Xenical.
So, my "onservation*" is this: I guess I've always been "this way." Something in my DNA says "hey, you - you can't be happy because something bad might happen if you are."
The comfort I take from all this is that I'm evolved enough to realize it! LOL! Actually, my observation has been that most people on the PB boards are very evolved, intelligent and creative individuals.
I spend a lot of time alone during the day and I have plenty of time to reflect on things and realize that I truly am a work in progress. I've had plastic surgery in an attempt to try to fix all the things I thought were broken, three marriages - trying to find that one person who "gets it," one child, a few dogs, one successful career that somehow lasted 19 years, and a few good friends I've known would always be there for me (and vice versa). AND, I recently found this board and read one paragraph from an old post that I basically waited my entire life to read!!! Light bulbs, fireworks, and an entire brass band section started up at the same moment when I read that single paragraph. It may sound ludicrous, but that one paragraph in that one older post somehow validated my life to this point (am I glad I found this board or what?).
So, do I think I will truly be okay? No. Probably not. Either because it's neurologically impossible or because I'm just too much of a perfectionist to ever say, "hey, everything IS okay."
That said, I can go through all the good things I have in life and try to appreciate them the best way I know how:
1) A wonderful 15-year-old son who is one of the funniest people I know and who seems to have a really good head on his shoulders thus far.
2) An unbelievable husband who has never once in 5+ years been mad or upset with me, despite all my pain in the butt ups and downs, hormoneless moaning, career loss, etc. - and who is the one of the other funniest people I know.
3) Parents who are still healthy (and also funny, despite their own flaws) and who rarely tell me how unhappy they are with each other anymore because I moved 2000 miles away and they are usually on the phone at the same time when we talk.
4) A dog who is a constant companion and is apparently destined to be with me, considering I tried to find a new home for her three different times (she was a stray).
5) The "luxury" of working at home after years of stress, and a husband who doesn't expect me to be the major breadwinner.
6) A view of the ocean and a beach within five blocks (who cares if I wouldn't dare put a swimsuit on and sit my behind on the sand? It's still there if I ever get the courage to do it).
7) Material things that make life easier (I list those last because they are, after all, just things when it's all said and done, but their presence does free up time for other things).
Somehow, I think this board could possibly be one piece of the confusing puzzle. Knowing you're not the only one grappling with . . . yourself somehow makes the journey seem less daunting.
P.S. If we are ever okay, how will we know it?
P.S.S. I just re-read this, sigh, and realized that I’ve had lots of happy moments throughout all these years, so perhaps, if I could just detach my ego from all this “stuff” I hold on to I could be one step further in my journey.
*This was a typo from one of my email friends and I decided it was too good a word not to add to my vocabulary because it can mean "ongoing observations," something I'm continually making.
Posted by mmcasey on April 15, 2003, at 11:20:14
In reply to Re: question about our futures » mmcasey, posted by justyourlaugh on April 15, 2003, at 9:44:41
Yeah, I recently feel like I have really started to embrace the whole
"piece of the puzzle" thing.... where basically everything is a
piece of the puzzle and that some pieces are good and some are
bad and some are mediocre. It is hard sometimes to make myself see
the good pieces, but deep down I know that they are there too, not
only the bad ones. And it is just so important to recall these
good pieces and acknowlegde them. And when I find myelf thinking
"My WHOLE LIFE SUCKS!!" to stop and think, "come on, Meg, no it doesn't
and you know it." Anyways.... there are a few of my thoughts.
Posted by noa on April 15, 2003, at 11:24:01
In reply to Re: futures (my response = too long), posted by leeran on April 15, 2003, at 11:03:58
mmcasey,
I am much more ok than I was before. I have to see it like that. I think I will become even more ok with time.
But I also think I can have an episode whenever. But probably it will not last as long or be as severe or cause as much damage. Ie, I have a chronic disease. Mostly in remission, and hopefully more stably in remission as time goes on (that has been true so far, once we got it under control). In future, I hope to see long term remission with only possibility of recurrent episodes of short duration and mild-moderate intensity. Of course, my wish is never to have recurrence, but I feel like I have to be prepared for it. Such is a chronic condition, even when in remission.
Stress is important to monitor and figure out how to protect myself from getting depressed when under a lot of stress.
This can affect certain life decisions. For me, I know that there are certain precautions I have to take. I have to honor my needs for not too much stress (when I have any control over it, that is) and for certain kinds of support, and need for certain routines. Sometimes it's a drag but until a cure or much better treatments are invented, that is reality for me.
But I think that it's important to measure things in moments--trying to have some good moments here and there and perhaps to increase the frequency of those good moments. But there is no such thing as continuous happiness all the time. For anyone, really. And I think I, as someone fighting depression have had difficulty at times seaparating out bad moments from feeling like my depression is back. Every down mood gets evaluated as a downturn, a regression into a bad depression again, when in fact maybe it isn't.
So, like the "one day at a time" motto, I think it is one moment at a time.
Posted by Kar on April 15, 2003, at 15:54:20
In reply to question about our futures, posted by mmcasey on April 15, 2003, at 9:02:01
...aren't they?
I agree wholehearted with whomever said, "What is ok?"...ok for us or ok for the rest of the world? We appreciate the "oks" a lot more than others; I truly believe that. Even when i'm down deep in the well I can think back on when I was good. Know that I will be good again. Then when I am good again, I want to live life to the fullest and (not in a manicky way- just an enthusistically "oh my God here's my old self- I better take advantage if it") plan and get things done and be happy and work out and read and socialize and ....live. There is always a "walking on eggshells" feel to my ups. A month ago I had a record of over 2 months of being fairly consistently good (I don't get manicky anymore ala trileptal and Lamictal). And I wanted to make plans and commit to something...but couldn't.I think what's happened with me is that I've come to a realization that there will always be depressions (as Eddie said) and some cycling. i hope and actually believe (haha- probably because I feel good at this moment!) that life can be mostly or at the very least more good than bad. Sometimes it takes forever to get to that point but I do believe that with the proper meds, etc. (given the luxury of availability and money for these meds) things can be better.
I think about this a lot too...and as Leeran described, often look back. Well grad school was good...wait a minute...I had to drop all of those classes...well college...well high school...
I was dx'd when I was 16 and I'm 33 now. it's taken a long time to get where I am today. And "where I am" is yet to be firmly established or proven. It's been a bad few years. i haven't worked in 2 years, we've tried med combos after combos. Finally something brought Karen back. I hope.I joked with a friend that in 30 years they will looking back at what we all went through and shake their heads in disgust..."You didn't have the neural-tranmitto-electrode-placement diagnoses then?"...How arcane huh?
Well this has been a brain dump.
I think for all of us there is the potential to find the right combo (of everything) and to have ups and down just like "normal people" do.
Just a matter of making the journey.Take care! ...and have a good trip :D
Posted by leeran on April 15, 2003, at 16:21:44
In reply to Ok and normal are so subjective » mmcasey, posted by Kar on April 15, 2003, at 15:54:20
Kar,
I agree (re: okay and normal). My husband and I discussed this the other night. He has learned to add a gesture of "quotation marks in the air" when he uses the word "normal" in our conversations.
We used to joke about a home lobotomy kit (thank goodness for humor) but your prediction of a future neural-tranmitto-electrode-placement diagnoses (preferably an at-home test kit) is what we ultimately need!
There's a doctor in Newport Beach, CA who uses "Brain SPECT Imaging" in his Psychiatry practice. The website is www.amenclinic.com
After visiting his site several times I think his work sounds the closest to what you've described. It was his online test that helped me realize that I have A.D.D. (my husband also took the test as they suggest a family member "tests" you as well, and our results were almost identical).
I'm going to copy and paste what the site mentions about brain imaging:
"The clinic is well known for Dr. Amen's work in brain SPECT imaging, a nuclear medicine study which evaluates blood flow and brain metabolism. Dr. Amen is one of only a handful of physicians worldwide who is both board certified in child, adolescent and adult psychiatry and licensed in nuclear brain imaging."
Unfortunately, our insurance doesn't cover this type of work and I don't think many insurance companies do at this point.
I just went to Amazon to take a look - his new book "Healing the Hardware of the Soul: How Making the Brain-Soul Connection Can Optimize Your Life, Love, and Spiritual Growth" has five stars!
I missed one of his seminars at the Learning Annex but I might order this book.
This is a good thread. Thanks mmcasey!
Posted by WorryGirl on April 15, 2003, at 19:01:10
In reply to question about our futures, posted by mmcasey on April 15, 2003, at 9:02:01
Well....
Maybe by the time we're all OK, there will be a whole new crop of not-OKs.
Some of us could possibly be experienced enough to help them at that point (scary but true?)!
Posted by WorryGirl on April 15, 2003, at 19:06:40
In reply to Re: question about our futures » mmcasey, posted by Eddie Sylvano on April 15, 2003, at 10:58:57
Hi Eddie,
It's good to hear from you again. I was hoping you hadn't stopped posting.
Take care
Posted by Dinah on April 15, 2003, at 19:25:53
In reply to Re: futures (my response = too long), posted by leeran on April 15, 2003, at 11:03:58
Hi leeran,
I've read several of your posts with an ah-hah feeling, but honestly, I didn't think to find someone else with the vomit phobia. I became almost agoraphobic over the fear that wherever I was, someone might throw up. And my parents just would *not* accept that that was the reason, so I acted out and just refused to go places. I threw huge temper tantrums. I would lie about why, because it hurt so that they wouldn't believe the truth. I'd much rather have them disbelieve a lie. I eventually learned to mask it a bit, by making sure I knew the escape routes from any situation, developing finely tuned radar for sick people, and avoiding anywhere where people might be expected to throw up. But it still causes me a fair amount of distress. Just better hidden distress. Did you ever "outgrow" your phobia?
Posted by leeran on April 16, 2003, at 0:04:35
In reply to Re: futures (my response = too long) » leeran, posted by Dinah on April 15, 2003, at 19:25:53
Dinah,
My mouth is hanging open (and no, I'm not going to puke).
"I became almost agoraphobic over the fear that wherever I was, someone might throw up."
I'VE LIVED A GOOD PORTION OF MY LIFE THIS WAY! ROCK CONCERTS, LARGE FUNCTIONS, YOU NAME IT.
"developing finely tuned radar for sick people"
YES, I DEVELOPED IT - AND STILL HAVE IT I'M SAD TO SAY. IN MANY WAYS THIS PHOBIA HAS DOMINATED A BIG PORTION OF MY LIFE. I HAD LIVING PROOF OF THIS JUST ABOUT A MONTH AGO . . . THE RADAR PART. SORRY FOR ALL CAPS, I'M NOT YELLING (WELL, MAYBE :-) BUT ONLY BECAUSE I'M EXCITED IN A COMRADELY KIND OF WAY. The caps seemed easier to differentiate your comments from mine, but I'll go lower case from here on out.
I have a friend who has the same phobia. She calls herself a "barf-a-phobe" and she has struggled with agoraphobia as well. Every time I tell her I'm on a new medication (not for that) she tells me I need to go spend $70,000 and 15 years on/in therapy (note - even after all that she has not fully given up her barf-a-phobic tendencies, not that there's anything wrong with that - but just thought it was something to note since we're discussing the subject of letting go of this phobia).
Dinah, my first (maybe second) post on these boards was to you because something you said about your mother gave me a big "yeah, RIGHT, I know exactly what you MEAN" feeling.
Here's the question (why am I afraid to ask?). Did you ever outgrow your phobia? I definitely have not. It comes and goes. Sometimes it's much worse than others.
You know, even the topic is difficult for me to discuss - is it for you?
This is now the second big epiphany I've had on this board!
Where the heck have you people been all my life??? :)
Posted by leeran on April 16, 2003, at 0:21:11
In reply to Re: futures (my response = too long) » leeran, posted by Dinah on April 15, 2003, at 19:25:53
You said:
"But it still causes me a fair amount of distress. Just better hidden distress."
I was so excited to read your post that I totally skimmed over this last part.
YES, this very much explains the way that I am, too!
I could go on and on (and I'm betting you could to) about the places I purposefully avoid - and the situations that cause me some of the worst stress - but I know that, again, if you're like me it's a subject that's so weird that it can effect you for days (maybe that's not how it is for you - please forgive me if I did a little transference number on you!).
My husband compares this board to group therapy (he mentioned this in a very positive way). I have never thought much about therapy - group or otherwise (I've been to a few counseling sessions but mainly related to family matters, i.e. marital situations in the past) - but if this is what group therapy is like, then, I've been missing out for the last several decades.
There is such weird relief in reading things that hit so close to home. I've thought several times of White Rabbit's post this afternoon/evening and now your post! Oh yeah, and something I read Friday (from "Trouble" about a year ago, in the archives) was the biggest "ah-ha" of all.
I'm sure (or hope) you know what I mean when I say "weird relief." I certainly don't mean that I'm glad that anyone else feels anxiety or pain, not in the least - but there's such a feeling of "aloneness" with depression, etc. that being able to connect with others who have been or are on the same road is meaningful beyond words.
I just wanted to let you know that I read your post on slow-motion (since what I had already posted was already history). Hmmmm, another one of my "isms" - overexplaining myself!
Posted by Dinah on April 16, 2003, at 4:26:47
In reply to Dinah, another comment, posted by leeran on April 16, 2003, at 0:21:11
Sometimes I find myself looking down when I am reading your posts (especially in the sensitivity thread), checking to make sure I'm me, and didn't write it myself. :)
It still does affect my life to a large degree. I avoid bars and amusement parks, and I pop tranquilizers before boarding a plane for a whole different reason than most. Even so, the last time I flew my face was cherry red from tension by the time I got off. Spots are considered "contaminated" long years after, and I still detour around them.
My therapist and I have come to see this as more of an OCD thing than a phobia. Therapy has really helped a lot with it, and I don't know if I could manage to be what I need to be with my son without therapy. But still, it's there to a greater or lesser extent and probably always will be.
I hope I didn't stir you up too much talking about it. I have passed the stage where it bothers me to talk about it, thanks to therapy, but I do remember how it bothered me in the past.
Posted by Eddie Sylvano on April 16, 2003, at 9:48:15
In reply to Hi Eddie » Eddie Sylvano, posted by WorryGirl on April 15, 2003, at 19:06:40
> Hi Eddie,
> It's good to hear from you again. I was hoping you hadn't stopped posting.
----------------------Somebody noticed my absence! I feel special. Thanks. :)
I stopped posting for a while after I got ran down on PB main (I'm *very* sensitive).
It's nice to be back.
Posted by leeran on April 16, 2003, at 10:24:06
In reply to Re: Dinah, another comment » leeran, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2003, at 4:26:47
Dinah: "Sometimes I find myself looking down when I am reading your posts (especially in the sensitivity thread), checking to make sure I'm me, and didn't write it myself. :)"
Lee: Yes, I've had similar feelings. I "lurk" on the admin board now and then and I can always seem to identify with the emotions/feelings you are describing. Maybe we were wired in the same factory - eh? :)
Dinah: "It still does affect my life to a large degree. I avoid bars and amusement parks, and I pop tranquilizers before boarding a plane for a whole different reason than most."Lee: I have always hated bars AND amusement parks! One irony is that we live in a little beach town that is well known for nightlife - especially during summer holidays. Last summer we walked down to the beach to watch the fireworks and the anxiety nearly killed me. I'm talking about crowds the size of which are hard to imagine. Our town prides itself on a "mini-triathalon" wherein the contestants go through all the events, and then immediately drink a six-pack of beer at the end and it becomes a veritable puke-fest. And it's covered in the local paper. In detail.
I'm curious if tranquilizers help when flying. I've become extremely phobic about flying - even though I used to fly from the Midwest to the West Coast (on the average) every other weekend.
Dinah: "Even so, the last time I flew my face was cherry red from tension by the time I got off. Spots are considered "contaminated" long years after, and I still detour around them."
Lee: Yes, I currently have the local Denny's on the "bad" list due to a unpleasant experience there about a month ago. And like you mentioned, I have radar. No one else even notices that someone is "on the edge" but boy, I sure do. Perhaps because I'm always observing people around me? But that's not quite the case because I don't always pay attention to people - but let someone lay their head down on a restaurant table and my antennae go into overdrive!
Dinah: "My therapist and I have come to see this as more of an OCD thing than a phobia. Therapy has really helped a lot with it, and I don't know if I could manage to be what I need to be with my son without therapy. But still, it's there to a greater or lesser extent and probably always will be."
Lee: I was going to ask you, last night, if you have children. I was thinking that I had read a post with you mentioning a son but wasn't sure so I didn't want to seem imposing. I have a son as well, and believe me, (I'm almost ashamed to admit this) this phobia (or whatever it is) is one of the reasons I didn't think I wanted to have children! There could be an entire board on this subject alone - lol!
My friend who has the same "phobia" (or whatever it is) has never had children and I've always wondered if that's part of it. Oh yeah, her therapist felt that her anxiety with it had a lot to do with control issues because vomiting can represent a total lack of control.
Dinah: "I hope I didn't stir you up too much talking about it. I have passed the stage where it bothers me to talk about it, thanks to therapy, but I do remember how it bothered me in the past."
Lee: No, not at all. I think it's such a relief to know that I'm not "the only one" that it feels rather therapeutic. It's spring, and I seem to be in a "mental spring cleaning" phase.
You know, one thing is this - when the dog gets sick it doesn't really bother me. Well, I get extremely anal if it happens on carpet and it's not an event I love, but I can certainly handle it, whereas my friend couldn't really watch the Osbornes again after she saw their English Bulldog "hurl" the one time she watched the show.
Oh yeah, one of the worst television shows for someone with this problem is, in my opinion, the Sopranos. I don't know if you've ever seen this show, but one episode in particular nearly did me in!
I got to the point during this Sopranos season that I just couldn't stand the anxiety of watching that show and it kind of became a joke with my husband and me.
Oh gosh. So much dirty laundry I've aired here . . . An online friend of mine asked me where I had "been" lately because just yesterday I sent her a copy of a post from here (I didn't put a name with it but labeled it "soul sister" in the subject line because it hit so close to home and I knew she would totally identify with the post). She immediately (of course) wanted to know what board I was frequenting and I just can't bring myself to tell her.
Thank you, Dinah, for sharing your thoughts on this. I would be curious to hear how you've handled this with having a child. As for me, I always have wondered how I would have handled it if I had siblings - or if I would have eventually been desensitized.
Posted by white rabbit on April 16, 2003, at 13:59:19
In reply to Re: Dinah, another comment » Dinah, posted by leeran on April 16, 2003, at 10:24:06
Posted by Dinah on April 16, 2003, at 16:04:20
In reply to Re: Dinah, another comment » Dinah, posted by leeran on April 16, 2003, at 10:24:06
Chuckle. Yes I think maybe we were wired in the same factory. Mixed blessing there. As my therapist told me yesterday, it's good in that I see things no one else notices, but it's bad in that - well, you know why it's bad.
I don't watch The Sopranos, but ER gets to me on occasion. Shudder.
Dogs don't bother me. But they did at one time. Travelling with my carsick-prone dog was a nightmare, a private hell really since we would go on long trips with her. I guess I finally got accustomed to it, because it doesn't bother me.
Getting "over" the phobia was actually one of the conditions my husband put on getting married because of the impact on kids. Fortunately, I can go on auto pilot if need be and take care of what I need to, even if I'm in shock inside. And I pop a klonopin immediately. And my husband is a sweetie about it. He takes the major role in caretaking those circumstances while I play a support role, if he's home. And he takes off from work if it's pretty certain there will be vomiting. So far I've managed, if not beautifully, then adequately at least. Fortunately (again) my son has a hardy stomach like his parents and rarely throws up and baby spit-up didn't seem to bother me. It is completely different. How do you manage with your son?
For me at least, a sibling was no help. Of course my phobia took full form at age eleven when my newly adopted brother threw up almost on me at a restaurant. I promptly had my first ever full blown panic attack in the corner of the restaurant, while everyone took care of my brother. I didn't know what a panic attack was, and thought I was dying. :( Turns out my brother had a verrrrry sensitive stomach and threw up all the time, especially after he figured out that it drove me literally nuts.
My bedroom was next to the bathroom, and I would always think I heard him being sick in the middle of the night. I had a hard time figuring out how much was real, and how much was imagination. I had my mother sleep with me for a while. When I got a stereo in the room, I found out that if I put the speakers on that wall at loud volume, I could mask any sounds or possible sounds from the bathroom. Later I turned both TV and speakers on at very high volume. I guess my parents thought it was a teen thing, although my tastes ran to easy listening, gregorian chants, madrigals, etc. Hardly your typical rattle the roof fare. At those times he really was sick, I would turn them on and then go to my walk in closet and sit or sleep there with the door closed. The bathroom there was permanently contaminated and I treated it like the worst sort of public toilet, hovering over it. And those were the relatively normal things I did over the combination of my brother and my phobia. There are some things only my therapist will ever know.
So many things were going wrong at the time. We had just adopted my brother (the son my mom always told me they wanted and I was supposed to be), I was the appointed picked on kid at my new middle school and torment was my daily lot, my best friend didn't want to be thisclose any more and wanted to hang out with others (and then she moved), my mom shifted overnight from my mamma to my mother as she reacted to my no longer being her sweet compliant daughter due to my emotional problems. It was all too much for an eleven year old. It was a whole lot easier to focus all my fear and anger into this obsession with vomit that consumed my days and nights, and distracted me from the rest.
And it was all so lonely, because I couldn't tell anyone the truth of why I did any of those things. No one really understood or believed me. I think I may have tried to tell my psychiatrist at the time once, but he obviously didn't get it and I never tried again. I was alone with my terror, and with figuring out ways to appear as normal as possible.
Posted by Dinah on April 16, 2003, at 16:04:52
In reply to You two steer clear of the medical profession ;-) (nm), posted by white rabbit on April 16, 2003, at 13:59:19
Posted by stjames on April 16, 2003, at 18:53:40
In reply to question about our futures, posted by mmcasey on April 15, 2003, at 9:02:01
> Do you guys really think that someday, through medication,
> therapy, personal growth and development, or whatever else...
> that SOMEDAY we will all truly be okay??
>
> It is a question that I struggle with constantly.I have been on meds since 1985 and do great.
Posted by white rabbit on April 16, 2003, at 19:01:44
In reply to question about our futures, posted by mmcasey on April 15, 2003, at 9:02:01
Despite my dreary personal circumstances, mentally I'm doing very well. In fact, considering how seriously screwed up I used to be-I have a long and dismal psychiatric history- I'm doing extraordinarily well, thanks to medication and an unbelievable therapist, I just love her (although my psychiatrist is a chickenhead).I've said this before and I'll keep saying it...
I was so sick, so depressed, so self-destructive,
that if I can get better, I know you can too. I know it. It's so hard to wait, so hard to hang on,
the road to recovery can seem like the trek up Mount Everest. You just have to keep putting one foot in front of the other and try to take advantage of every opportunity to feel better with medication, therapy, family, support groups-
whatever it takes. You have to learn how to take care of yourself.
Shalom-
Gracie
Posted by Tabitha on April 16, 2003, at 21:02:49
In reply to Re: A very long answer » leeran, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2003, at 16:04:20
Posted by leeran on April 17, 2003, at 1:01:58
In reply to Re: A very long answer » leeran, posted by Dinah on April 16, 2003, at 16:04:20
Dinah: I see things no one else notices, but it's bad in that - well, you know why it's bad.
Lee: Yes. I know exactly what you mean. And it doesn't just start/end with picking up on the preamble from the next barfing buffoon. It's the way the dust gets in the seams in the upholstery of the car. Or the fact that a wall isn't exactly straight.
I need a thick layer of anesthetic for my frustrating (and endless) pursuit of the aesthetic in EVERYTHING that falls between the peripheral vision of either eye at any given moment.
Dinah: I don't watch The Sopranos, but ER gets to me on occasion. Shudder.Lee: Yes, the poor fellow at the start of the season (on ER) lost his arm but I was too busy obsessing about the fact that he threw up after it happened!
Dinah: Dogs don't bother me. But they did at one time. Travelling with my carsick-prone dog was a nightmare, a private hell really since we would go on long trips with her. I guess I finally got accustomed to it, because it doesn't bother me.Lee: I suppose we can count our blessings on this one reprieve.
Dinah: Getting "over" the phobia was actually one of the conditions my husband put on getting married because of the impact on kids.
Lee: My first husband mentioned this whenever we discussed starting a family. Usually, it was enough for me to stay on the pill or have my IUD adjusted.
Dinah: Fortunately, I can go on auto pilot if need be and take care of what I need to, even if I'm in shock inside.
Lee: Where my son is concerned, I can do this as well - but you've described it so perfectly - "shock inside." Fortunately, my ex-husband was good about this as well. I could tell you about the convergance of two of my fears (flying/throwing up) where my son is concerned but at the moment I'm feeling too world weary to do so. Besides, I just had a lovely and very fattening dessert and I need to skirt this subject for the time being :) at the risk of ruining the memory of a perfectly good bowl of coffee ice cream mixed with chocolate chips from Coldstone Creamery.
Dinah: And I pop a klonopin immediately.
Lee: I suppose I should look up this medication immediately! I have a feeling that if it helps you, it might help me.
Dinah: And my husband is a sweetie about it.
Lee: If nothing else, this ("and my husband is a sweetie about it") can be the mark of true love.
Dinah: He takes the major role in caretaking those circumstances while I play a support role, if he's home. And he takes off from work if it's pretty certain there will be vomiting. So far I've managed, if not beautifully, then adequately at least. Fortunately (again) my son has a hardy stomach like his parents and rarely throws up and baby spit-up didn't seem to bother me.
Lee: Baby spit-up was fine on this front as well.
Dinah: It is completely different. How do you manage with your son?
Lee: Well, I'm fortunate, I suppose, that he's a lot like your son (knock on wood, which I just actually did - as quietly as I could so my husband wouldn't think I've gone totally mad today. As an aside, I went off Wellbutrin about 23 days ago in favor of Lexapro and we are now seeing the error in my ways . . . my husband even called in the prescription tonight and insisted we go get it before 9:00).
Dinah: For me at least, a sibling was no help. Of course my phobia took full form at age eleven when my newly adopted brother threw up almost on me at a restaurant. I promptly had my first ever full blown panic attack in the corner of the restaurant, while everyone took care of my brother. I didn't know what a panic attack was, and thought I was dying. :(
Lee: I can sympathize COMPLETELY. I guess my first grade reaction to the kid throwing up on the quadrant of desks was probably one of my first panic attacks as well. I remember going home and sitting on the sofa with my fingers in my ears and my eyes closed while my parents tried to question me about what in the world was the matter (everything!).
So, essentially, you were an only child for eleven years of your life . . .
I have to tell you, Dinah, that if a second child had shown up when I was eleven I would have probably had a nervous breakdown (as they were referred to back then).
I remember my father telling me that if he and my mother had another child my grandmother would drop me like a hot skillet! His words EXACTLY. I've never forgotten them! Can you believe the things parents say to children??? Of course you can - what your mother said to you - "the son my mom always told me they wanted and I was supposed to be" - is in that same league. Similar, as well, to my mother saying she never wanted additional children because she really never wanted to be bothered - one was enough "trouble." (Trouble from the child who should have been pigeon toed from trying to walk the straight and narrow for so many years).
Dinah - Turns out my brother had a verrrrry sensitive stomach and threw up all the time, especially after he figured out that it drove me literally nuts.
Lee: Oh, Dinah, my heart nearly broke when I read this. This is one reason it took me so many hours to respond. I can so easily put myself in your place and imagine what this must have been like for you. Anyone that isn't a "barf-a-phobe" is undoubtedly shaking their head and saying "huh?" but I understand COMPLETELY. I also understand how hard it is for "non-barf-a-phobes" to understand because the few people I've ever admitted this to have really had a difficult time wrapping their minds around the concept.
Dinah: My bedroom was next to the bathroom, and I would always think I heard him being sick in the middle of the night. I had a hard time figuring out how much was real, and how much was imagination. I had my mother sleep with me for a while. When I got a stereo in the room, I found out that if I put the speakers on that wall at loud volume, I could mask any sounds or possible sounds from the bathroom. Later I turned both TV and speakers on at very high volume. I guess my parents thought it was a teen thing, although my tastes ran to easy listening, gregorian chants, madrigals, etc. Hardly your typical rattle the roof fare. At those times he really was sick, I would turn them on and then go to my walk in closet and sit or sleep there with the door closed. The bathroom there was permanently contaminated and I treated it like the worst sort of public toilet, hovering over it. And those were the relatively normal things I did over the combination of my brother and my phobia. There are some things only my therapist will ever know.
Lee: Part of my own phobia was probably due to my father. He didn't drink all the time but when he did it apparently made him quite ill. This must be where a lot of this phobia is rooted because typing this is difficult! I'll make it fast and exit this paragraph - he was very loud about it. Horrendously so. I have no doubt I need therapy on this . . . lots of it.
Dinah: So many things were going wrong at the time. We had just adopted my brother (the son my mom always told me they wanted and I was supposed to be), I was the appointed picked on kid at my new middle school and torment was my daily lot, my best friend didn't want to be thisclose any more and wanted to hang out with others (and then she moved), my mom shifted overnight from my mamma to my mother as she reacted to my no longer being her sweet compliant daughter due to my emotional problems. It was all too much for an eleven year old. It was a whole lot easier to focus all my fear and anger into this obsession with vomit that consumed my days and nights, and distracted me from the rest.Lee: I simply can't believe how similar our lives have been. Middle school was dreadful (I don't do "transitions" well). My friendships faltered at this time, too. Friends from grade school seemed much more socially adept at blending in (and meeting) all the new kids from other grade schools. I ended up feeling isolated/deserted (I'm really lousy at small talk - but give me a message board box to type in and I'll spill my guts - no pun intended).
Funny thing is, I was always shy with other kids my age - and lousy at integrating myself into any group, but then I ended up in advertising sales for twenty years! More self-torture! As for the mama to mother thing, my mother was always battling her depression (who knew that was what it was called back then? I just thought she hated me) so I was always waiting for the other shoe to drop. She would accuse me of giving her "hate" looks and I wouldn't even think I had looked in her direction!
Dinah: And it was all so lonely, because I couldn't tell anyone the truth of why I did any of those things. No one really understood or believed me. I think I may have tried to tell my psychiatrist at the time once, but he obviously didn't get it and I never tried again. I was alone with my terror, and with figuring out ways to appear as normal as possible.
Lee: I'm just flabbergasted at the similarities between our experiences - or our reactions to our experiences. How in the world does one tell other people about this fear??? For me, it's like adding more fear on top of the primary fear because someone might CAPITALIZE on it (like your brother did with you). I've always felt it was a phobia that somehow translated into this terrible weakness or freakiness that has its roots somewhere at the very core of my being! There has been such vulnerability that has gone along with it. Every rock concert, vacation (cruises in particular), airline flight, etc. has been tainted with this gnawing anxiety.
Well, I see I've run out of "Dinah" comments to edit in and out with my own. I suppose now it's time to go upstairs and cross my fingers in the hopes I won't dream about this ;)
You are such a sweetheart to share your feelings with this "board" virgin! I can't tell you how much I appreciate your openness!
I suppose I will finish this post with the earth shattering, epiphanic post that I saved to my hard drive last Friday (the one I found when I was looking through the archives, posted by Trouble over a year ago), but tonight I'll direct it to you:
"Wow. Where were you when I was a kid? Do you ever wonder about that? How come there were no other insane families around except your own? No reference point, no one to comisserate with? What a difference it would have made to have had one friend who was going thru something similar!" -posted by Trouble to Anna Laura, February 13, 2002
Posted by Dinah on April 17, 2003, at 3:50:38
In reply to Re: (((little Dinah))) (nm) » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on April 16, 2003, at 21:02:49
Thanks Tabitha. Little Dinah was rather messed up and self centered, but awfully sad.
Posted by Dinah on April 17, 2003, at 3:55:21
In reply to Re: (another) very long answer » Dinah, posted by leeran on April 17, 2003, at 1:01:58
Thanks for being so kind in your answer. I had one of those dreadful moments where I said "Uh-oh. That was probably more than anyone ever needed to know." :)
It was just nice to say it to someone who could understand. (Although I'm sorry you are able to understand, if you know what I mean.)
I'm sorry about your Dad. First grade, hmmm? I feel greatful I was at least older when it hit.
And a quote from Trouble is always much appreciated. I miss her. Such a perceptive woman.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.