![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Gracie2 on August 8, 2001, at 16:38:24
I see my Dad only once or twice a year because he lives in some exotic place being an architectural engineer. When we do meet, there are kisses on the cheek, how's the weather, very polite, let's-do-lunch-again-sometime. It's very shallow and impersonal and makes me sad.
This year I decided that things would be different, that I would force him into more personal conversation. The thing that has always bothered me most about my Dad is that he's never said a single word to me about the death of my brother. Not one
word. My brother died in a military aircrash and there is a memorial at Fort Campbell for the soldiers who died on the plane. I took out the pictures and placed them on the table in front of my Dad:Dedicated to the memory of the 248 soldiers of Task Force 3-502, multinational force and observers, 101st
Airborne Division (Air Assault)who perished at Gander, Newfoundland while returning home from peacekeeping duty in the Sinai Peninsula.
"Our courageous peacekeepers
have departed our midst suddenly.
And they have ascended to heights
Where even Screaming Eagles can't fly."My dad took off his glasses, and he began to weep. I was shocked beyond belief. Dad doesn't show his feelings; I thought prehaps we could discuss MINE, because I'm still having a terrible time handling Shayne's death. I never meant to hurt him. I've never seen my father cry.
When I got home, my husband was disgusted with me. He said, "You wanted to get a reaction out of him, and you did. What's the problem?" I couldn't believe he said that to me. I took a beer out of the refrigerator and he said, "Oh no." He snatched it away from me. "That always just makes you worse." He sounded repulsed.I don't know what to do now. I feel like shoving everything I can fit into my hatchback and moving down to the Louisiana swamps, where nobody will ever find me. I don't know what to do.
-Gracie
Posted by Greg A. on August 8, 2001, at 17:01:05
In reply to What would you do? Help me., posted by Gracie2 on August 8, 2001, at 16:38:24
Gracie,
You already have this one figured. Speaking as a middle aged (48) male who has spent a lifetime praticing not feeling emotions that are not manly, you have probably done your father a service by getting him to acknowledge his grief. I have 2 children (teenagers) and cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to lose a child. I also know that the unwritten code for men is that emotions like anger are okay to display, but grief and such are to be covered up. He may think he is being strong for the rest of you or something, but you got through that disguise. Just tell him you are glad to know he feels the same grief that you do and it would help you to be able to talk to him about it.
One thing I don't understand is your husband's reaction. Does he consider that you are too emotional? If your father is rather distant from you, what does it matter to your husband how your Dad reacted?
Posted by susan C on August 8, 2001, at 18:54:17
In reply to What would you do? Help me., posted by Gracie2 on August 8, 2001, at 16:38:24
Dear Gracie,
I would probably have done the same thing.
You don't describe what happened after he started crying. Did you touch him? Will you contact him to let him now know how you feel?
Like Greg, I too dont understand your spouse's reaction, except that I too have had mine intercede when I am about to do something that 'will make things worse' and later, begrudgingly, I have appreciated his help.
Has he cried about the loss of your brother?
When you were describing the scene with your dad, I imagined my dad across the table from me.
You see, my dad died of cancer three months before my brother suicided. So, I haven't heard a word from my dad about my brother's death. True, it is different situation, but I would like to think that we would have cried together, held hands and grieved the loss of a great guy whom we loved.
From a keyboard wet with tears, hugs
-S
> I see my Dad only once or twice a year because he lives in some exotic place being an architectural engineer. When we do meet, there are kisses on the cheek, how's the weather, very polite, let's-do-lunch-again-sometime. It's very shallow and impersonal and makes me sad.
> This year I decided that things would be different, that I would force him into more personal conversation. The thing that has always bothered me most about my Dad is that he's never said a single word to me about the death of my brother. Not one
> word. My brother died in a military aircrash and there is a memorial at Fort Campbell for the soldiers who died on the plane. I took out the pictures and placed them on the table in front of my Dad:
>
> Dedicated to the memory of the 248 soldiers of Task Force 3-502, multinational force and observers, 101st
> Airborne Division (Air Assault)who perished at Gander, Newfoundland while returning home from peacekeeping duty in the Sinai Peninsula.
> "Our courageous peacekeepers
> have departed our midst suddenly.
> And they have ascended to heights
> Where even Screaming Eagles can't fly."
>
> My dad took off his glasses, and he began to weep. I was shocked beyond belief. Dad doesn't show his feelings; I thought prehaps we could discuss MINE, because I'm still having a terrible time handling Shayne's death. I never meant to hurt him. I've never seen my father cry.
> When I got home, my husband was disgusted with me. He said, "You wanted to get a reaction out of him, and you did. What's the problem?" I couldn't believe he said that to me. I took a beer out of the refrigerator and he said, "Oh no." He snatched it away from me. "That always just makes you worse." He sounded repulsed.
>
> I don't know what to do now. I feel like shoving everything I can fit into my hatchback and moving down to the Louisiana swamps, where nobody will ever find me. I don't know what to do.
> -Gracie
Posted by Willow on August 8, 2001, at 20:44:14
In reply to Re: What would you do? Help me., posted by susan C on August 8, 2001, at 18:54:17
Gracie
Regarding your husbands reaction, what do you think he meant by you always get worse when you have a beer? I'm ready to pack up too so anything else said wouldn't be good advice.
Keep talking to your dad. When I suffer a loss a door closes on me and I notice that I can't get to the same level of closeness again. I'm fine with the surface stuff, but for the rest I guess I'm too scared of the pain again.
Best Wishes
Willow
Posted by Gracie2 on August 8, 2001, at 20:58:58
In reply to Re: What would you do? Help me., posted by susan C on August 8, 2001, at 18:54:17
Greg and Susan-
Thank you for answering, I was so rattled...the only reason I can think of my husband acting the way he did is because he thinks I pick and torment him until he shows some emotion. He thinks it's some kind of competition or game, when all I want is for him to show some kind of emotion about ANYTHING besides the frigging Red Sox. If HE had come home after lunch with his Dad, shaking and crying, I would have bolted out of my seat, led him to a chair, got him something to drink, rubbed his shoulders and listened to him for as long as he wanted to talk.
When I walked into the door crying and shaking, my husband stubbed out his cigarette and said,
"WHAT NOW?!"I don't know, boy. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something like, "We would rather put up with the evils we know of, rather than fly into the face of those we know not."
I am a professional woman, 40, educated, decent income, nice house. I do not really want to move to the Louisiana swamps but I am seriously thinking of driving to Florida and working as a hotel maid somewhere on the Gulf Coast until my mind returns to me. -Gracie
-To those who, by the dint of glass and vapour,
Discover stars, and sail in the wind's eye-
-Byron
Posted by susan C on August 8, 2001, at 22:11:34
In reply to Help me - Greg and Susan, posted by Gracie2 on August 8, 2001, at 20:58:58
just for grins:
You need to understand my oldest is/was completely involed in computers. At age 7 he was programming. So now the story. He has all his buddies over for a birthday party (at about age 14-16) and they are all sitt'n' round in the L-room shoot'n' the breeze, about, of course, computers.
I walked through, and said loudly, you know, you guys are all just computer 'jocks' You talk and relate to each other just like sports jocks...
Oh, you should have heard the denial..oh, no we're not...
Here is another one:
I worked in sales, one day, out to lunch with the manager and head salesman, they were going on and on about (insert sports team name here) and in my own, indubidable way I chime up and said, 'you know, you guys talk about sports figures like women do about soap opera characters....' oh, you should have heard the denial...'oh, no we're not.....' >
Guys, can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.
-s
> Greg and Susan-
> Thank you for answering, I was so rattled...the only reason I can think of my husband acting the way he did is because he thinks I pick and torment him until he shows some emotion. He thinks it's some kind of competition or game, when all I want is for him to show some kind of emotion about ANYTHING besides the frigging Red Sox. If HE had come home after lunch with his Dad, shaking and crying, I would have bolted out of my seat, led him to a chair, got him something to drink, rubbed his shoulders and listened to him for as long as he wanted to talk.
> When I walked into the door crying and shaking, my husband stubbed out his cigarette and said,
> "WHAT NOW?!"
>
> I don't know, boy. I can't remember the exact quote, but it was something like, "We would rather put up with the evils we know of, rather than fly into the face of those we know not."
>
> I am a professional woman, 40, educated, decent income, nice house. I do not really want to move to the Louisiana swamps but I am seriously thinking of driving to Florida and working as a hotel maid somewhere on the Gulf Coast until my mind returns to me. -Gracie
>
> -To those who, by the dint of glass and vapour,
> Discover stars, and sail in the wind's eye-
> -Byron
Posted by AMenz on August 9, 2001, at 0:03:22
In reply to Re: What would you do? Help me., posted by susan C on August 8, 2001, at 18:54:17
My theory for what it's worth. I think many times we marry our father. We pick a guy whose emotional make up is similar to one's Dad, eg. withdrawn, happy go lucky, whatever the traits may be that give us the most difficulty.
Then we try to resolve this problem with the spouse. If he's withdrawn we want to make him communicative, if he is flighty we want to make him steady. Get my meaning.
One of two things is going on: either we have become trained by our parent to relate to people who are the same way and these people sort of click with us-- or we are trying to refight and resolve a battle lost in childhood.
You are probably going to have to accept your husband the way he is. Or if now as an adult you find him intolerable move on. However, I would not make any decisions that are earth shaking while you are depressed. Getting away for a while, visit relative or whatever, may not be a bad idea.
Remember also that depression is difficult on the spouse, specially one who has difficulty with emotions. It might feel threatening to those "Martian" guys when Venusian girls express a lot of emotions
Hope this helps. I do run on.
> Dear Gracie,
>
> I would probably have done the same thing.
>
> You don't describe what happened after he started crying. Did you touch him? Will you contact him to let him now know how you feel?
>
> Like Greg, I too dont understand your spouse's reaction, except that I too have had mine intercede when I am about to do something that 'will make things worse' and later, begrudgingly, I have appreciated his help.
>
> Has he cried about the loss of your brother?
>
> When you were describing the scene with your dad, I imagined my dad across the table from me.
>
> You see, my dad died of cancer three months before my brother suicided. So, I haven't heard a word from my dad about my brother's death. True, it is different situation, but I would like to think that we would have cried together, held hands and grieved the loss of a great guy whom we loved.
>
> From a keyboard wet with tears, hugs
> -S
>
>
> > I see my Dad only once or twice a year because he lives in some exotic place being an architectural engineer. When we do meet, there are kisses on the cheek, how's the weather, very polite, let's-do-lunch-again-sometime. It's very shallow and impersonal and makes me sad.
> > This year I decided that things would be different, that I would force him into more personal conversation. The thing that has always bothered me most about my Dad is that he's never said a single word to me about the death of my brother. Not one
> > word. My brother died in a military aircrash and there is a memorial at Fort Campbell for the soldiers who died on the plane. I took out the pictures and placed them on the table in front of my Dad:
> >
> > Dedicated to the memory of the 248 soldiers of Task Force 3-502, multinational force and observers, 101st
> > Airborne Division (Air Assault)who perished at Gander, Newfoundland while returning home from peacekeeping duty in the Sinai Peninsula.
> > "Our courageous peacekeepers
> > have departed our midst suddenly.
> > And they have ascended to heights
> > Where even Screaming Eagles can't fly."
> >
> > My dad took off his glasses, and he began to weep. I was shocked beyond belief. Dad doesn't show his feelings; I thought prehaps we could discuss MINE, because I'm still having a terrible time handling Shayne's death. I never meant to hurt him. I've never seen my father cry.
> > When I got home, my husband was disgusted with me. He said, "You wanted to get a reaction out of him, and you did. What's the problem?" I couldn't believe he said that to me. I took a beer out of the refrigerator and he said, "Oh no." He snatched it away from me. "That always just makes you worse." He sounded repulsed.
> >
> > I don't know what to do now. I feel like shoving everything I can fit into my hatchback and moving down to the Louisiana swamps, where nobody will ever find me. I don't know what to do.
> > -Gracie
Posted by Marie1 on August 9, 2001, at 8:23:58
In reply to Re: What would you do? Help me., posted by susan C on August 8, 2001, at 18:54:17
Susan,
My brother killed himself at the age of 32 (4 yrs. ago). I don't think I'll ever get over it, but it comforts me to think that maybe he's happier now. Both my parents were gone by then - my mother in '95, and my dad in '92 (on the same day!!) I'm glad they didn't have to suffer through what we did. I lost another brother recently (natural causes), and I realized the pain of mourning a suicide is different in some ways. It would have killed my parents.
I'm so sorry about your brother. Were you close in age? Was there any history of mental illness or any forewarning? It's so awful - now I'm the one crying on the keyboard. Hugs to you.Marie
> Dear Gracie,
>
> I would probably have done the same thing.
>
> You don't describe what happened after he started crying. Did you touch him? Will you contact him to let him now know how you feel?
>
> Like Greg, I too dont understand your spouse's reaction, except that I too have had mine intercede when I am about to do something that 'will make things worse' and later, begrudgingly, I have appreciated his help.
>
> Has he cried about the loss of your brother?
>
> When you were describing the scene with your dad, I imagined my dad across the table from me.
>
> You see, my dad died of cancer three months before my brother suicided. So, I haven't heard a word from my dad about my brother's death. True, it is different situation, but I would like to think that we would have cried together, held hands and grieved the loss of a great guy whom we loved.
>
> From a keyboard wet with tears, hugs
> -S
>
>
Posted by susan C on August 9, 2001, at 10:33:14
In reply to Re: What would you do? Help me. » susan C, posted by Marie1 on August 9, 2001, at 8:23:58
Thank you for your kind words and sharing.
Yes, I too think surviving a suicide is different from someones death. I see 'survior of suicide groups' but I never go.My brother was 18 months older than me, I Idolized him. Truth be told, I think I was in love with him. He was handsome, entertaining, and always on the go. I look back now and remember how he would ignore me, or tease me ( like my older (5years) older brother...but that didnt stop my awe.
We, as a family, couldn't really trace when the problems started with him, though my father and now I think my paternal great grandfather had problems. depression and manic/depression respectively.
We'd watch old movies and mom and dad would comment on how he was always falling down. In college,he came back from a trip to mexico, having been dumped by his girlfriend and taken drugs, MJ, probably, speed, maybe, hash, probably, lsd most likely, and he was a mess. He was in college, a poet, philosopher and writer, into east indian religion, mysticism, starting a rock and roll band, reaching for the stars, one of many experiences I remember where I look back and say, ah, yes, manic. I didn't see him much then, I was off to college and had hooked up with my now spouse.
He was diagnosed as paranoid Schizophrenic with hallucinations of litttle green men that he talked to. I know at one time my parents had him involuntarily committed. He never forgave them for that. This whole time (I figure about 7-8 years between 20 year and 28) it upset my mom so much. At that time, it was considered the mothers fault. My dad, finally 'disowed him' and told him not to come to the house again. Bro went on SSI and lived 80 miles away. We went to see him probably a year before he died. He was talking to himself (having conversations with his little green people) I kept trying to communicate with him that I loved him...My spouse (who had lived with many drug addicts and crazy people) just listened to him. We talk about that visit sometimes and how upset I was, and how I didn't see what was going on. About a year later, my dad died suddenly of brain cancer. Three months later my mom invited my brother home for Christmas. Fortunately, she was not alone. My sister and her boyfriend found him after he had shot himself in the head in the closet.
When my mom sold the house, a couple of years ago, all the deaths had happened long enough ago, we didn't need to disclose them. The last evening, at sunset, my sister, my mother and I walked through and around the empty house with burning dry sage and lighted candles, saying prayers and holding each other and crying. It was a small ritual.
He had kept saying he had lost the ability to love. That he was in so much pain. We all agree he went to somewhere where he can express his love. I was reasured that he knew we loved him. Thank you for holding my hand. I think I have needed to think about this for a while.
-s> Susan,
> My brother killed himself at the age of 32 (4 yrs. ago). I don't think I'll ever get over it, but it comforts me to think that maybe he's happier now. Both my parents were gone by then - my mother in '95, and my dad in '92 (on the same day!!) I'm glad they didn't have to suffer through what we did. I lost another brother recently (natural causes), and I realized the pain of mourning a suicide is different in some ways. It would have killed my parents.
> I'm so sorry about your brother. Were you close in age? Was there any history of mental illness or any forewarning? It's so awful - now I'm the one crying on the keyboard. Hugs to you.
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear Gracie,
> >
> > I would probably have done the same thing.
> >
> > You don't describe what happened after he started crying. Did you touch him? Will you contact him to let him now know how you feel?
> >
> > Like Greg, I too dont understand your spouse's reaction, except that I too have had mine intercede when I am about to do something that 'will make things worse' and later, begrudgingly, I have appreciated his help.
> >
> > Has he cried about the loss of your brother?
> >
> > When you were describing the scene with your dad, I imagined my dad across the table from me.
> >
> > You see, my dad died of cancer three months before my brother suicided. So, I haven't heard a word from my dad about my brother's death. True, it is different situation, but I would like to think that we would have cried together, held hands and grieved the loss of a great guy whom we loved.
> >
> > From a keyboard wet with tears, hugs
> > -S
> >
> >
Posted by Greg A. on August 9, 2001, at 15:00:01
In reply to Help me - Greg and Susan, posted by Gracie2 on August 8, 2001, at 20:58:58
I just had to laugh at your reference to the Red Sox. It's so typical of us men isn't it? We can get all worked up over some sport, but other things we won't let touch us at all. My wife cries over sad movies. She cries over problems of people she doesn't even know. She empathizes with everyone who is in trouble. Me - I try to ignore it all. And i get mad at her for being so emotional. It hurts too much for me to feel those emotions. And yet that attitude is a big part of why I am depressed. Those feelings have to get out. If they are not dealt with as grief or sadness, then they come out as anxiety, or depression or alcoholism or workoholism.I hate to come across as the 'Sensitive New Age Guy' because I'm not. But your husband better watch it! The Red Sox cannot continue to be his emotional outlet.
Hang in there. We are tough to get through to, but it can happen.Greg
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on August 9, 2001, at 21:58:22
In reply to What would you do? Help me., posted by Gracie2 on August 8, 2001, at 16:38:24
>
> I see my Dad only once or twice a year because he lives in some exotic place being an architectural engineer. When we do meet, there are kisses on the cheek, how's the weather, very polite, let's-do-lunch-again-sometime. It's very shallow and impersonal and makes me sad.
> This year I decided that things would be different, that I would force him into more personal conversation. The thing that has always bothered me most about my Dad is that he's never said a single word to me about the death of my brother. Not one
> word. My brother died in a military aircrash and there is a memorial at Fort Campbell for the soldiers who died on the plane. I took out the pictures and placed them on the table in front of my Dad:
>
> Dedicated to the memory of the 248 soldiers of Task Force 3-502, multinational force and observers, 101st
> Airborne Division (Air Assault)who perished at Gander, Newfoundland while returning home from peacekeeping duty in the Sinai Peninsula.
> "Our courageous peacekeepers
> have departed our midst suddenly.
> And they have ascended to heights
> Where even Screaming Eagles can't fly."
>
> My dad took off his glasses, and he began to weep. I was shocked beyond belief. Dad doesn't show his feelings; I thought prehaps we could discuss MINE, because I'm still having a terrible time handling Shayne's death. I never meant to hurt him. I've never seen my father cry.
> When I got home, my husband was disgusted with me. He said, "You wanted to get a reaction out of him, and you did. What's the problem?" I couldn't believe he said that to me. I took a beer out of the refrigerator and he said, "Oh no." He snatched it away from me. "That always just makes you worse." He sounded repulsed.
>
> I don't know what to do now. I feel like shoving everything I can fit into my hatchback and moving down to the Louisiana swamps, where nobody will ever find me. I don't know what to do.
> -GracieDear Gracie,
I can see that there is a lot of pain in your
family; please be kind to your self; in my mind,
you absolutely did not do anything wrong. Research is showing that humans who try to keep
things in tend to get various illnesses like
cancer. Please try not to drink any alcohol;
as you probably already know, it is a depressant.
Likewise, I do not quite understand your husband's
reaction.Take care and please do not do anything rash,
okay?
Glenn
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on August 9, 2001, at 22:02:11
In reply to Re: What would you do? Help me., posted by susan C on August 8, 2001, at 18:54:17
> Dear Gracie,
>
> I would probably have done the same thing.
>
> You don't describe what happened after he started crying. Did you touch him? Will you contact him to let him now know how you feel?
>
> Like Greg, I too dont understand your spouse's reaction, except that I too have had mine intercede when I am about to do something that 'will make things worse' and later, begrudgingly, I have appreciated his help.
>
> Has he cried about the loss of your brother?
>
> When you were describing the scene with your dad, I imagined my dad across the table from me.
>
> You see, my dad died of cancer three months before my brother suicided. So, I haven't heard a word from my dad about my brother's death. True, it is different situation, but I would like to think that we would have cried together, held hands and grieved the loss of a great guy whom we loved.
>
> From a keyboard wet with tears, hugs
> -SDear Susan,
I can really sense your pain. I am so sorry.
Do you still have other family members who
are still around?
Glenn
>
>
> > I see my Dad only once or twice a year because he lives in some exotic place being an architectural engineer. When we do meet, there are kisses on the cheek, how's the weather, very polite, let's-do-lunch-again-sometime. It's very shallow and impersonal and makes me sad.
> > This year I decided that things would be different, that I would force him into more personal conversation. The thing that has always bothered me most about my Dad is that he's never said a single word to me about the death of my brother. Not one
> > word. My brother died in a military aircrash and there is a memorial at Fort Campbell for the soldiers who died on the plane. I took out the pictures and placed them on the table in front of my Dad:
> >
> > Dedicated to the memory of the 248 soldiers of Task Force 3-502, multinational force and observers, 101st
> > Airborne Division (Air Assault)who perished at Gander, Newfoundland while returning home from peacekeeping duty in the Sinai Peninsula.
> > "Our courageous peacekeepers
> > have departed our midst suddenly.
> > And they have ascended to heights
> > Where even Screaming Eagles can't fly."
> >
> > My dad took off his glasses, and he began to weep. I was shocked beyond belief. Dad doesn't show his feelings; I thought prehaps we could discuss MINE, because I'm still having a terrible time handling Shayne's death. I never meant to hurt him. I've never seen my father cry.
> > When I got home, my husband was disgusted with me. He said, "You wanted to get a reaction out of him, and you did. What's the problem?" I couldn't believe he said that to me. I took a beer out of the refrigerator and he said, "Oh no." He snatched it away from me. "That always just makes you worse." He sounded repulsed.
> >
> > I don't know what to do now. I feel like shoving everything I can fit into my hatchback and moving down to the Louisiana swamps, where nobody will ever find me. I don't know what to do.
> > -Gracie
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on August 9, 2001, at 22:05:51
In reply to What would you do? Help me., posted by Gracie2 on August 8, 2001, at 16:38:24
>
> I see my Dad only once or twice a year because he lives in some exotic place being an architectural engineer. When we do meet, there are kisses on the cheek, how's the weather, very polite, let's-do-lunch-again-sometime. It's very shallow and impersonal and makes me sad.
> This year I decided that things would be different, that I would force him into more personal conversation. The thing that has always bothered me most about my Dad is that he's never said a single word to me about the death of my brother. Not one
> word. My brother died in a military aircrash and there is a memorial at Fort Campbell for the soldiers who died on the plane. I took out the pictures and placed them on the table in front of my Dad:
>
> Dedicated to the memory of the 248 soldiers of Task Force 3-502, multinational force and observers, 101st
> Airborne Division (Air Assault)who perished at Gander, Newfoundland while returning home from peacekeeping duty in the Sinai Peninsula.
> "Our courageous peacekeepers
> have departed our midst suddenly.
> And they have ascended to heights
> Where even Screaming Eagles can't fly."
>
> My dad took off his glasses, and he began to weep. I was shocked beyond belief. Dad doesn't show his feelings; I thought prehaps we could discuss MINE, because I'm still having a terrible time handling Shayne's death. I never meant to hurt him. I've never seen my father cry.
> When I got home, my husband was disgusted with me. He said, "You wanted to get a reaction out of him, and you did. What's the problem?" I couldn't believe he said that to me. I took a beer out of the refrigerator and he said, "Oh no." He snatched it away from me. "That always just makes you worse." He sounded repulsed.
>
> I don't know what to do now. I feel like shoving everything I can fit into my hatchback and moving down to the Louisiana swamps, where nobody will ever find me. I don't know what to do.
> -GracieHi Susan. I forgot to add your name to one of
my posts above. Please take care, Glenn
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on August 9, 2001, at 22:13:03
In reply to Re: What would you do? Help me. Gracie, posted by AMenz on August 9, 2001, at 0:03:22
> My theory for what it's worth. I think many times we marry our father. We pick a guy whose emotional make up is similar to one's Dad, eg. withdrawn, happy go lucky, whatever the traits may be that give us the most difficulty.
>
> Then we try to resolve this problem with the spouse. If he's withdrawn we want to make him communicative, if he is flighty we want to make him steady. Get my meaning.
>
> One of two things is going on: either we have become trained by our parent to relate to people who are the same way and these people sort of click with us-- or we are trying to refight and resolve a battle lost in childhood.
>
> You are probably going to have to accept your husband the way he is. Or if now as an adult you find him intolerable move on. However, I would not make any decisions that are earth shaking while you are depressed. Getting away for a while, visit relative or whatever, may not be a bad idea.
>
> Remember also that depression is difficult on the spouse, specially one who has difficulty with emotions. It might feel threatening to those "Martian" guys when Venusian girls express a lot of emotions
>
> Hope this helps. I do run on.
>
>
> > Dear Gracie,
> >
> > I would probably have done the same thing.
> >
> > You don't describe what happened after he started crying. Did you touch him? Will you contact him to let him now know how you feel?
> >
> > Like Greg, I too dont understand your spouse's reaction, except that I too have had mine intercede when I am about to do something that 'will make things worse' and later, begrudgingly, I have appreciated his help.
> >
> > Has he cried about the loss of your brother?
> >
> > When you were describing the scene with your dad, I imagined my dad across the table from me.
> >
> > You see, my dad died of cancer three months before my brother suicided. So, I haven't heard a word from my dad about my brother's death. True, it is different situation, but I would like to think that we would have cried together, held hands and grieved the loss of a great guy whom we loved.
> >
> > From a keyboard wet with tears, hugs
> > -S
> >
> >
> > > I see my Dad only once or twice a year because he lives in some exotic place being an architectural engineer. When we do meet, there are kisses on the cheek, how's the weather, very polite, let's-do-lunch-again-sometime. It's very shallow and impersonal and makes me sad.
> > > This year I decided that things would be different, that I would force him into more personal conversation. The thing that has always bothered me most about my Dad is that he's never said a single word to me about the death of my brother. Not one
> > > word. My brother died in a military aircrash and there is a memorial at Fort Campbell for the soldiers who died on the plane. I took out the pictures and placed them on the table in front of my Dad:
> > >
> > > Dedicated to the memory of the 248 soldiers of Task Force 3-502, multinational force and observers, 101st
> > > Airborne Division (Air Assault)who perished at Gander, Newfoundland while returning home from peacekeeping duty in the Sinai Peninsula.
> > > "Our courageous peacekeepers
> > > have departed our midst suddenly.
> > > And they have ascended to heights
> > > Where even Screaming Eagles can't fly."
> > >
> > > My dad took off his glasses, and he began to weep. I was shocked beyond belief. Dad doesn't show his feelings; I thought prehaps we could discuss MINE, because I'm still having a terrible time handling Shayne's death. I never meant to hurt him. I've never seen my father cry.
> > > When I got home, my husband was disgusted with me. He said, "You wanted to get a reaction out of him, and you did. What's the problem?" I couldn't believe he said that to me. I took a beer out of the refrigerator and he said, "Oh no." He snatched it away from me. "That always just makes you worse." He sounded repulsed.
> > >
> > > I don't know what to do now. I feel like shoving everything I can fit into my hatchback and moving down to the Louisiana swamps, where nobody will ever find me. I don't know what to do.
> > > -GracieDearAMenz,
That is excellent feedback for Gracie!
I couldn't have said it any better.
Glenn
Posted by Glenn Fagelson on August 9, 2001, at 22:18:19
In reply to Re: What would you do? Help me. » susan C, posted by Marie1 on August 9, 2001, at 8:23:58
> Susan,
> My brother killed himself at the age of 32 (4 yrs. ago). I don't think I'll ever get over it, but it comforts me to think that maybe he's happier now. Both my parents were gone by then - my mother in '95, and my dad in '92 (on the same day!!) I'm glad they didn't have to suffer through what we did. I lost another brother recently (natural causes), and I realized the pain of mourning a suicide is different in some ways. It would have killed my parents.
> I'm so sorry about your brother. Were you close in age? Was there any history of mental illness or any forewarning? It's so awful - now I'm the one crying on the keyboard. Hugs to you.
>
> MarieDear Marie,
Your story like the others is so
heart-rending; life is not easy, is it?
Glenn
>
>
>
> > Dear Gracie,
> >
> > I would probably have done the same thing.
> >
> > You don't describe what happened after he started crying. Did you touch him? Will you contact him to let him now know how you feel?
> >
> > Like Greg, I too dont understand your spouse's reaction, except that I too have had mine intercede when I am about to do something that 'will make things worse' and later, begrudgingly, I have appreciated his help.
> >
> > Has he cried about the loss of your brother?
> >
> > When you were describing the scene with your dad, I imagined my dad across the table from me.
> >
> > You see, my dad died of cancer three months before my brother suicided. So, I haven't heard a word from my dad about my brother's death. True, it is different situation, but I would like to think that we would have cried together, held hands and grieved the loss of a great guy whom we loved.
> >
> > From a keyboard wet with tears, hugs
> > -S
> >
> >
Posted by Marie1 on August 10, 2001, at 8:18:15
In reply to Marie, memories of times past, posted by susan C on August 9, 2001, at 10:33:14
Susan,
Your post gave me chills - I had to get up and walk away....
Your brother sounds special. The brother I just lost this summer was about 18 mnths. older than I am. We shared so much. And now that link to my past is gone. I know that has contributed to your pain as well. Life is certainly a mystery isn't it? I wish you happiness.Marie
> Thank you for your kind words and sharing.
> Yes, I too think surviving a suicide is different from someones death. I see 'survior of suicide groups' but I never go.
>
> My brother was 18 months older than me, I Idolized him. Truth be told, I think I was in love with him. He was handsome, entertaining, and always on the go. I look back now and remember how he would ignore me, or tease me ( like my older (5years) older brother...but that didnt stop my awe.
>
> We, as a family, couldn't really trace when the problems started with him, though my father and now I think my paternal great grandfather had problems. depression and manic/depression respectively.
>
> We'd watch old movies and mom and dad would comment on how he was always falling down. In college,he came back from a trip to mexico, having been dumped by his girlfriend and taken drugs, MJ, probably, speed, maybe, hash, probably, lsd most likely, and he was a mess. He was in college, a poet, philosopher and writer, into east indian religion, mysticism, starting a rock and roll band, reaching for the stars, one of many experiences I remember where I look back and say, ah, yes, manic. I didn't see him much then, I was off to college and had hooked up with my now spouse.
>
> He was diagnosed as paranoid Schizophrenic with hallucinations of litttle green men that he talked to. I know at one time my parents had him involuntarily committed. He never forgave them for that. This whole time (I figure about 7-8 years between 20 year and 28) it upset my mom so much. At that time, it was considered the mothers fault. My dad, finally 'disowed him' and told him not to come to the house again. Bro went on SSI and lived 80 miles away. We went to see him probably a year before he died. He was talking to himself (having conversations with his little green people) I kept trying to communicate with him that I loved him...My spouse (who had lived with many drug addicts and crazy people) just listened to him. We talk about that visit sometimes and how upset I was, and how I didn't see what was going on. About a year later, my dad died suddenly of brain cancer. Three months later my mom invited my brother home for Christmas. Fortunately, she was not alone. My sister and her boyfriend found him after he had shot himself in the head in the closet.
>
> When my mom sold the house, a couple of years ago, all the deaths had happened long enough ago, we didn't need to disclose them. The last evening, at sunset, my sister, my mother and I walked through and around the empty house with burning dry sage and lighted candles, saying prayers and holding each other and crying. It was a small ritual.
>
> He had kept saying he had lost the ability to love. That he was in so much pain. We all agree he went to somewhere where he can express his love. I was reasured that he knew we loved him. Thank you for holding my hand. I think I have needed to think about this for a while.
> -s
>
> > Susan,
> > My brother killed himself at the age of 32 (4 yrs. ago). I don't think I'll ever get over it, but it comforts me to think that maybe he's happier now. Both my parents were gone by then - my mother in '95, and my dad in '92 (on the same day!!) I'm glad they didn't have to suffer through what we did. I lost another brother recently (natural causes), and I realized the pain of mourning a suicide is different in some ways. It would have killed my parents.
> > I'm so sorry about your brother. Were you close in age? Was there any history of mental illness or any forewarning? It's so awful - now I'm the one crying on the keyboard. Hugs to you.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Dear Gracie,
> > >
> > > I would probably have done the same thing.
> > >
> > > You don't describe what happened after he started crying. Did you touch him? Will you contact him to let him now know how you feel?
> > >
> > > Like Greg, I too dont understand your spouse's reaction, except that I too have had mine intercede when I am about to do something that 'will make things worse' and later, begrudgingly, I have appreciated his help.
> > >
> > > Has he cried about the loss of your brother?
> > >
> > > When you were describing the scene with your dad, I imagined my dad across the table from me.
> > >
> > > You see, my dad died of cancer three months before my brother suicided. So, I haven't heard a word from my dad about my brother's death. True, it is different situation, but I would like to think that we would have cried together, held hands and grieved the loss of a great guy whom we loved.
> > >
> > > From a keyboard wet with tears, hugs
> > > -S
> > >
> > >
Posted by susan C on August 10, 2001, at 10:06:03
In reply to for Susan C, posted by Glenn Fagelson on August 9, 2001, at 22:05:51
> >
> > I see my Dad only once or twice a year because he lives in some exotic place being an architectural engineer. When we do meet, there are kisses on the cheek, how's the weather, very polite, let's-do-lunch-again-sometime. It's very shallow and impersonal and makes me sad.
> > This year I decided that things would be different, that I would force him into more personal conversation. The thing that has always bothered me most about my Dad is that he's never said a single word to me about the death of my brother. Not one
> > word. My brother died in a military aircrash and there is a memorial at Fort Campbell for the soldiers who died on the plane. I took out the pictures and placed them on the table in front of my Dad:
> >
> > Dedicated to the memory of the 248 soldiers of Task Force 3-502, multinational force and observers, 101st
> > Airborne Division (Air Assault)who perished at Gander, Newfoundland while returning home from peacekeeping duty in the Sinai Peninsula.
> > "Our courageous peacekeepers
> > have departed our midst suddenly.
> > And they have ascended to heights
> > Where even Screaming Eagles can't fly."
> >
> > My dad took off his glasses, and he began to weep. I was shocked beyond belief. Dad doesn't show his feelings; I thought prehaps we could discuss MINE, because I'm still having a terrible time handling Shayne's death. I never meant to hurt him. I've never seen my father cry.
> > When I got home, my husband was disgusted with me. He said, "You wanted to get a reaction out of him, and you did. What's the problem?" I couldn't believe he said that to me. I took a beer out of the refrigerator and he said, "Oh no." He snatched it away from me. "That always just makes you worse." He sounded repulsed.
> >
> > I don't know what to do now. I feel like shoving everything I can fit into my hatchback and moving down to the Louisiana swamps, where nobody will ever find me. I don't know what to do.
> > -Gracie
>
> Hi Susan. I forgot to add your name to one of
> my posts above. Please take care, Glenn
This is the end of the thread.
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