![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 35 to 59 of 59. Go back in thread:
Posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 12:20:18
In reply to Re: The chocolate comment..., posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 11:10:37
Dear Noa,
I divined that it was Nikki's birthday through an ancient and secret ritual by considering the alignment of the oak leaves as they fell during the recent cold blustery weather.... :)
Actually, I found out by answering a post that wasn't meant for me (would that make me guilty of evesreading???) when she pointed out my error by kindly taking on the responsibility of my mistake, indicating she wasn't thinking clearly because she had too much work to do to celebrate her birthday!
Warmly,
Coral
Posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 15:06:30
In reply to Re: To Noa, posted by coral on November 21, 2000, at 12:20:18
Thanks for solving the mystery--sometimes I am amazed at what I miss around here!
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:16:10
In reply to Re: To Noa, posted by Noa on November 21, 2000, at 15:06:30
I don't have anything to say except that just because some people make fun of you doesn't mean they're right. There are still people who do want you to hang on and will try to listen to you and help you. I encourage you to hang on. I hope you find a place where people are willing to be kind to you. Keep in mind that the other people on this board (including me) have problems too. And some of the cruel and sarcastic threads may be the reflection of that rather than intentional attempts to inflict pain on you. That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, but why not? I hope your Samaritan got in touch with you and things are looking up. I noticed your attempts to reach out to some of the others and to give support or comfort as well as your unfortunate attempt to join the "games". I think you're worth a lot as a person and hope you can learn to see that too. God be with you.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:28:03
In reply to Hi Hannah and other Suicidal people, posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:16:10
Here's a link to the about site for mental health. It has loads of links. I know there are lots of other resources out there. In fact so many, it's kind of overwhelming. I know the Depression site at About has a chat room if you like that kind of thing. I know how hard holidays can be.
http://mentalhealth.about.com/index.htm?rnk=c2&terms=Mental+Health
> I don't have anything to say except that just because some people make fun of you doesn't mean they're right. There are still people who do want you to hang on and will try to listen to you and help you. I encourage you to hang on. I hope you find a place where people are willing to be kind to you. Keep in mind that the other people on this board (including me) have problems too. And some of the cruel and sarcastic threads may be the reflection of that rather than intentional attempts to inflict pain on you. That's giving them the benefit of the doubt, but why not? I hope your Samaritan got in touch with you and things are looking up. I noticed your attempts to reach out to some of the others and to give support or comfort as well as your unfortunate attempt to join the "games". I think you're worth a lot as a person and hope you can learn to see that too. God be with you.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:49:55
In reply to Hannah if you're out there, posted by ksvt on November 20, 2000, at 20:39:29
today where we mostly just talkied about how the last couple of years of therapy have done very little to curb my rather rampant and persistent suicidal ideation. I've come to look at it as an untreatable symptom that is just a part of me now > >
Me too ksvt me too. Prozac totally stopped the sudden overwhelming suicidal impulses I had when I was younger and I am grateful for that. But it didn't touch the slower persistent but less overwhelming thoughts. I don't know why I'm posting this gloomy report about myself. But it made me feel less alone to know that someone else is struggling with this. Thanks and I wish the best for you.
Posted by shar on November 21, 2000, at 22:20:52
In reply to Re: Suicidal people, posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 21:28:03
There is a website for people in crisis and contemplating suicide. It is www.metanoia.org and is a very good place to visit if someone is feeling like acting on their suicidal feelings.
I have had unrelenting suicidal ideation since I was a young child (good training from the "you should never have been born" club, I think). As an adult, the only respite I had was a short time on Zoloft before it pooped out. I hope it will go away if I find the right mix of ADs, but so far it has been quite stable, always there.
If someone is not clear about how they are feeling, or talks in code, or mixes cruelty with sarcasm and "cries for help" I am not likely to see that person as someone genuinely asking for help. Most people on this board, in my experience, who are feeling desperate or suicidal are pretty blunt about it, or angry, -- but quite clear. I "hear" that (as do many others here that respond to that sense of despair that comes through).
Shar
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 23:27:36
In reply to Suicide Web Site, posted by shar on November 21, 2000, at 22:20:52
> There is a website for people in crisis and contemplating suicide. It is www.metanoia.org and is a very good place to visit if someone is feeling like acting on their suicidal feelings.
>
Thanks for posting that,I'm going to go check it out.
> I have had unrelenting suicidal ideation since I was a young child (good training from the "you should never have been born" club, I think). As an adult, the only respite I had was a short time on Zoloft before it pooped out. I hope it will go away if I find the right mix of ADs, but so far it has been quite stable, always there.
I'm sorry. It must be horrible. I hope you will find the right mix too. At least the Zoloft let you know that it was possible to feel some other way. Of course I guess in some ways that was a mixed blessing since now you know what you are missing. I used to think what if the final horror was that everyone felt the way I did and just didn't talk about it and there was no other possibility. Anyway I really am sorry.
>> If someone is not clear about how they are feeling, or talks in code, or mixes cruelty with sarcasm and "cries for help" I am not likely to see that person as someone genuinely asking for help. Most people on this board, in my experience, who are feeling desperate or suicidal are pretty blunt about it, or angry, -- but quite clear. I "hear" that (as do many others here that respond to that sense of despair that comes through).
I guess it takes all kinds of listeners. I think people can sometimes have a hard time communicating overpowering emotions. I heard an almost overwhelming sense of pain and despair and hopelessness and anger and rejection. I certainly don't intend any criticism of you for hearing something different.
D
Posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 7:56:23
In reply to Re: Suicide Web Site » shar, posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 23:27:36
>I certainly don't intend any criticism of you...
D--
None taken. I'm very sure of what I didn't hear.Shar
Posted by ksvt on November 22, 2000, at 12:37:25
In reply to Re: Suicide Web Site » Dasypodidae , posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 7:56:23
> >I weigh in here with immense trepidation, I know people on this board are super sensitive to even the hint of criticism. However, dysypodidae kindly acknowledged my last post, and dasypodidae and shar have been discussing something that's pretty uppermost for me now. Thinking about suicide has been something of an obsession of late. This is something I've struggled with, not since childhood like you Shar, but for about 5 years or so since I started being treated for a second episode of major depression. For me, it's like a voice that's always lurking in the background and sometimes comes to the forefront and gets loud and persistent. It doesn't seem to take a hell of a lot to trigger it and at some point it does quiet down, but the frequency and length of the "visits" can make it very tough to deal with. I have 2 kids, a 12 year old and a 15 year old, who but for occasional displays of the dual personalities of adolescents, are great kids. I can be very critical of the job I do as a parent and I can think that they deserve a more competent, less self-absorbed parent but I have never ever deluded myself into thinking that they would be better off if I killed myself. I don't view this as doing anyone any favors issue - this is just me finding it oppressively tough to live with me. As I'm sure you all know, thinking this way is profoundly isolating. It's not something I can share with my husband. I feel lately like my pdoc has sort of withdrawn from the scene, and I really don't think there is anything he can do anyway.Lastly, I'm so embarrassed by my lack of progress on this issue, that I really don't think I can talk about it much with my therapist. I'm really sort of afraid that she's going to give up on me, which is sort of stupid since I've sort of given up on me. So right now I just brood about it (unwillingly), and feel like I'm engaged in a huge exercise in futility. Those of you who have ever watched Star Trek will remember the watchwords of the Borg "resistance is futile."
When I first started coming to this board, I was overwelmed by the amount of support and caring that I saw. My feelings now aren't quite as charitable. I see lots of examples of nonresponsiveness or flip responses or insensitive responses or no responses. When Dr. Bob posts one of his "be civil" responses, people seem to be knocking each other over to come back to him, but the person who posted the original offending comment, and the reasons the remark was made, gets very easily lost in the shuffle. Hannah, may have had some rough edges, but she also could be very kind. I think it sucks frankly that she was blockedand blocked so abruptly. You may not have read her remarks as truly suicidal, but I certainly read anger and despair. I thought the level and immediacy of her distress should have been taken into account, before her voice was cut off. A person shouldn't be ignored or their suicidal ramblings discounted simply because they're not likely to carry through with their threats. I've been asked on numerous occasions if I considered myself to be "at risk." I always thought that this was an absurd question because the term "at risk" seems to be a psychiatric term and I'm not qualified to draw medical conclusions. Nearly all of the time I've said no because I think the image of my children will always stop me. However, trusting that I won't take that last step doesn't make thinking about it any more tolerable. Knowing that I'm going to spend the rest of my life drifting in (mostly in apparently) and out of these states, can be very intolerable. ksvtI certainly don't intend any criticism of you...
>
> D--
> None taken. I'm very sure of what I didn't hear.
>
> Shar
Posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 12:56:18
In reply to Re: Suicide Web Site » Dasypodidae , posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 7:56:23
Where do I start--these last few posts are about so much. I'll start here with one topic, and post about others in another post.
Unrelenting suicidal feelings are oppressive. An oppressive life. Maybe I am wrong, but I have to think that it is worth continuing the search for a better med combo to ease this opression.
I guess at this point, I don't expect myself to never experience any suicidal thoughts or feelings, but I do expect to have periods without them, in fact I expect to have most days of my life without them. Sure, when I think about it, they are in there, deep down and can be brought up sometimes. I am not "rid" of them. But I think you all deserve to live life without them on the surface all the time.
I know you have each worked very hard to try to find the right combo of meds and have worked hard in therapy, too. So, encouraging you to keep the search up is not meant to imply that you haven't been searching.
Last year, I never would have believed it possible to be free of that oppression. But here I am--not "rid" of the suicidal thoughts put away somewhere, quieted somehow, but I am free of the oppression of not being able to tolerate myself each waking moment I live.
If your pdoc is weary, it is time to consult a consultant for new ideas you and your pdoc can try.
Posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 13:09:57
In reply to Re: Suicidal Feelings, posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 12:56:18
I think sometimes people do express desparate feelings in a mix of other stuff and it can get lost in the shuffle and misunderstood.
I didn't agree with some of the hostile manner of Hannah's posts and feel she did provoke hostile responses sometimes. But I also felt people jumped on her too much too, and some even tried to corner her or goad her into more hostile exchanges after she said she wanted to participate peacefully. And then, when she expressed suicidal feelings, it was a shame that they were lost in the hostile exchange from her side and from others.
I would like people to be more straightforward when asking for help, but we have seen that that is hard for a lot of people. I wish everyone could reserve the impulse to react hostilely to a hostile message---and then either ignore it, or respond with a more measured response, or reread it and see what else was in it, not just reacting to the hostility.
I am still not happy about the sarcastic thread about group dynamics because yes, even though it applies to all bboard group dynamics, I think it still is not respectful of the sensitive nature of this board, and that it *appears*, even if that wasn't the intent, to make fun of someone who is in great distress, and who may still be reading this board even if she cannot post here. It also seems that at least one other person felt it might have been about her, and now she doesn't feel safe here.
I came here(there was only one board then, actually) a year and a half ago in tremendous distress and found incredible support that may have helped to save my life. I am invested in this place, as I believe many others are. I feel a lot of us who come here are in pain and that calls for sensitivity. I also love humor and wouldn't want it gone, but I feel we have to be mindful of the special nature of this board.
Posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 15:05:16
In reply to Re: Suicidal Feelings lost in the melee, posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 13:09:57
> >someone who is in great distress
Noa,
Maybe I missed the post to which you are referring (if you had Hannah in mind). I don't remember a post in which she stated she was in distress, or great distress, or suicidal, or desperate, or any post in which she accepted support when it was offered or went on to talk about how she was actually feeling. Not that any post had to be an eloquent masterpiece, but just a clear statement of her feeling suicidal and in despair or something.If there is such a post, please direct me to it.
If there is not such a post, then you are speculating about what she meant just as I am. It becomes a matter of individual interpretation, since we are not mind-readers and cannot know what she meant to convey.
Thanks,
Shar
Posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 16:13:38
In reply to Suicidal Feelings and Interpretations of Posts » Noa, posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 15:05:16
Shar,
I agree it was hard to really see the suicidal crisis because of the "noise" from the hostile words.
Here is what I was thinking about when I posted earlier:
In the very first post of the thread, entitled The Dark Night of the Unlumpy, Hannah wrote:
> Has anyone ever had any contact with the Samaritans? They are a suicide prevention group. It is possible to e-mail them through an anonomyzer so that they do not have your e-mail address. This is that address
>
> samaritans@anon.twwells.comand she signed it:
> Despaired but not departed
> Hannah(http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001117/msgs/2943.html)
In another post, she asks,
>Where is my Samaritan?
a reference to not having heard backfrom the online suicide hotline.
She also says, in this post,
>Death to all unlumpy Hannahs!!!!!!!!!
(http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001117/msgs/2978.html)
Then, she does express thanks to Angela for trying to support her:
>I appreciate your kindness. Thanks (np) »» Angela5
(http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001117/msgs/2962.html)
In a subsequent post, she asks,
>Are you making fun of my suicidal crisis? It's really really hard to make a noose out of a whip. That dang Samaratin is taking his time replying too.
Sorry--I lost the address for that post and if I try to get it I will lose this window.
I recognize she made it hard to see that she was in a bad state--and suicidal-- but I think she was.
Posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 16:15:58
In reply to Re: Suicidal Feelings and Interpretations of Posts, posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 16:13:38
>
> In a subsequent post, she asks,
>
> >Are you making fun of my suicidal crisis? It's really really hard to make a noose out of a whip. That dang Samaratin is taking his time replying too.
>
> Sorry--I lost the address for that post and if I try to get it I will lose this window.The address for that one is
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001117/msgs/2962.html
I guess I mixed up that address with the previous one. sorry.
Posted by ksvt on November 22, 2000, at 17:02:02
In reply to Re: Suicidal Feelings, posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 12:56:18
>Noa - thanks for your response, which as is typical with you, was thoughtful and articulate. I really do value your perspective. I know on some level that I need to be exploring other med combos. I have so little confidence about finding anything that will make much of a difference, that there is an approach avoidance about this. However, things are bad enough now that I think my therapist will probably start that inquiry with my pdoc if I don't. For now I just feel spent. I need to find a way not to think about myself for awhile. Thanks again ksvt
Where do I start--these last few posts are about so much. I'll start here with one topic, and post about others in another post.
>
> Unrelenting suicidal feelings are oppressive. An oppressive life. Maybe I am wrong, but I have to think that it is worth continuing the search for a better med combo to ease this opression.
>
> I guess at this point, I don't expect myself to never experience any suicidal thoughts or feelings, but I do expect to have periods without them, in fact I expect to have most days of my life without them. Sure, when I think about it, they are in there, deep down and can be brought up sometimes. I am not "rid" of them. But I think you all deserve to live life without them on the surface all the time.
>
> I know you have each worked very hard to try to find the right combo of meds and have worked hard in therapy, too. So, encouraging you to keep the search up is not meant to imply that you haven't been searching.
>
> Last year, I never would have believed it possible to be free of that oppression. But here I am--not "rid" of the suicidal thoughts put away somewhere, quieted somehow, but I am free of the oppression of not being able to tolerate myself each waking moment I live.
>
> If your pdoc is weary, it is time to consult a consultant for new ideas you and your pdoc can try.
Posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 18:00:42
In reply to Re: Suicidal Feelings » Noa, posted by ksvt on November 22, 2000, at 17:02:02
>I have so little confidence about finding anything that will make much of a difference, that there is an approach avoidance about this.
I am familiar with this myself--it is a catch-22, is it not?
As for focusing on something beside yourself, you have focused on other people here--and helped many of us!
Posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 20:09:53
In reply to Re: Suicidal Feelings and Interpretations of Posts, posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 16:13:38
Noa,
Not having the energy or much interest in delving into the minutiae of Hannah's posts, I will say that :-when BJ offered her an anonymous address for posting to Samatarians, she said she was just sharing if anyone else wanted it.
-B'day offered support and an ear
-Angela offered support and an ear
-St. James points out the counterproductivity of the ask/insult approach
-Greg offers support and an ear
-The "death to all" quote is in a long and insulting post, and death to all unlumpy Hannahs is one sentence--the last.
-There are at least 3 posts that are inaccessible; the title is there but not the content, and if I recall, those were not polite posts.
-Her insulting posts to me were limited to 3, one of which is now inaccessible.
So, really it seems a matter of selective perception. You heard amongst all of the insults a desperate cry for help (even if one sentence out of a dozen), and I heard a lot of insults or aggressive statements with some references to despair or gallows humor.
We will never know unless she tells us what was on her mind.
Shar
Posted by coral on November 22, 2000, at 21:35:38
In reply to Interpretations of Posts » Noa, posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 20:09:53
> Noa,
I have to respond to this as well. H's posts directed specifically to me were hurtful and stung me badly. I doubt that anyone could claim to believe they were "humorous attempts." H, herself, didn't even make that claim. When she attacked me personally, I withdrew and refused to participate. However, the viciousness of her posts to me still stings. She used previous information I'd posted about a difficult situation in my life as a basis for her attack. Yet, some people were much more concerned about her "crisis" than the damage she'd inflicted on me.
Also, something that I just don't "get" is that when someone says "I'm leaving", people scurry to bring that person back (that part I understand), but what I don't understand is if the person is leaving, why don't they leave instead of continuing to read? I truly don't understand.
(I feel like I'm walking on eggshells by posting this - I don't want to risk offending anyone ... )
It seems almost a ploy to see how much attention they'll receive with their threats to leave.One last point I've raised before - is humor on trial here? One of my favorite "holiday" songs is "Grandma got run over by a reindeer." I KNOW there's an organization that "fights" for reindeer rights and against the slavery of reindeer by Santa Claus. I believe they're called the Reindeer Liberation Front. I hope they're joking.
Coral
Posted by Emmanuela on November 24, 2000, at 2:40:55
In reply to Re: Interpretations of Posts, posted by coral on November 22, 2000, at 21:35:38
Coral dearheart - I've done extensive and exhaustive research and the organization called Reindeer Liberation Front is simply that: a front for the real organization which protects Grandma's perapetetic (in the immortal words of Harry Belafonte) rights and is called, and aptly so, Grandma's Traveling Front, and sometimes Back, when she's forgotten something and has to turn around and go back and get it. It's no joking matter, what with the influx of Flat Stanleyed Grammys lying hither and yon.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 24, 2000, at 9:28:07
In reply to Re: Interpretations of Posts, posted by coral on November 22, 2000, at 21:35:38
I for one am glad Greg decided to come back if that's the thread you are bringing up again.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20001031/msgs/2381.htmlIt's notable that he did respond quickly and generously to Hannah in spite of their one-time misunderstanding. I think he's an example to us all when it comes to letting go of old grievances. I'm glad he did keep reading and did decide to come back.
I'm sorry you're hurt Coral. I hope it gets better. Good luck.
> Also, something that I just don't "get" is that when someone says "I'm leaving", people scurry to bring that person back (that part I understand), but what I don't understand is if the person is leaving, why don't they leave instead of continuing to read? I truly don't understand.
> (I feel like I'm walking on eggshells by posting this - I don't want to risk offending anyone ... )
> It seems almost a ploy to see how much attention they'll receive with their threats to leave.
>
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 24, 2000, at 9:39:54
In reply to Re: Suicidal Feelings, posted by Noa on November 22, 2000, at 12:56:18
Thanks Noa. You gave me just the little nudge I needed to try and be a little more aggressive in treating this. I have tried lots of things and seen a psychopharmacologist whose name shows up on lists of the good ones here and there. But I guess it's time to keep on trying :) I think I had fallen into the trap of thinking suicide was the treatment of last resort rather than a symptom of the depression. I'm talking to my Pdoc later today and I am going to try and come up with a new stategy.
Thanks to shar and ksvt too for helping me rethink things. Good luck.
Where do I start--these last few posts are about so much. I'll start here with one topic, and post about others in another post.
>
> Unrelenting suicidal feelings are oppressive. An oppressive life. Maybe I am wrong, but I have to think that it is worth continuing the search for a better med combo to ease this opression.
>
> I guess at this point, I don't expect myself to never experience any suicidal thoughts or feelings, but I do expect to have periods without them, in fact I expect to have most days of my life without them. Sure, when I think about it, they are in there, deep down and can be brought up sometimes. I am not "rid" of them. But I think you all deserve to live life without them on the surface all the time.
>
> I know you have each worked very hard to try to find the right combo of meds and have worked hard in therapy, too. So, encouraging you to keep the search up is not meant to imply that you haven't been searching.
>
> Last year, I never would have believed it possible to be free of that oppression. But here I am--not "rid" of the suicidal thoughts put away somewhere, quieted somehow, but I am free of the oppression of not being able to tolerate myself each waking moment I live.
>
> If your pdoc is weary, it is time to consult a consultant for new ideas you and your pdoc can try.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 24, 2000, at 10:07:23
In reply to And Back to Hannah and others in Despair , posted by Dasypodidae on November 21, 2000, at 8:04:39
If you're reading this you have just survived Thanksgiving! Congratulations and God Bless us everyone!
:-D
Posted by Noa on November 24, 2000, at 12:01:11
In reply to Interpretations of Posts » Noa, posted by shar on November 22, 2000, at 20:09:53
> > >You heard amongst all of the insults a desperate cry for help (even if one sentence out of a dozen), and I heard a lot of insults or aggressive statements with some references to despair or gallows humor.
Shar, I heard the hostility and aggressiveness too, but also the despair.
And, I heard lots of offers for help, as you mentioned.
I am not faulting anyone for not helping her. I agree that she seemed to be rejecting help.
But I am also not happy about people going on to mimic her in subsequent posts. That is my main point. Ignore someone if they are making it difficult to communicate appropriately. But we don't need to fan the fires of hostility, and we don't need humor at anyone's expense.
Posted by Noa on November 24, 2000, at 12:10:29
In reply to Re: Interpretations of Posts, posted by coral on November 22, 2000, at 21:35:38
Coral, I am sorry--I didn't pick up on the references to your earlier disclosures that you mentioned were in Hannah's posts. I think not responding was a good choice that you made. I don't condone Hannah's hostile words, and I feel that most often not responding is a good way to handle them.
For me, humor is not at all on trial, although it seems others are making that accusation, with glances in my direction. It is only humor at other people's (people on this board--writers or lurkers) expense, that I object to. I am referring specifically to the parody which seemed to mimic people, and I felt, also overlooked that hidden in the hostility was despair.
Posted by Dasypodidae on November 25, 2000, at 22:38:33
In reply to Re: And Back to Hannah and others in Despair , posted by Dasypodidae on November 24, 2000, at 10:07:23
Hi Hannah I was planning to back off from this site for a while but came back to post to you one more time. If you are still reading you may have seen the hurtful post referring to the Hannah festivities and I wanted you to know that someone at least doesn't consider what happened to you in the least festive. I do not consider it accurate, civil or kind to call you names and ridicule your experience here. And I think you definitely have a sense of humour and I hope you can put it to good use in the service of life. I hope you are feeling better. I hope you have made contact with someone who can help you. I hope you don't consider the reception you recieved on Psychosocial Babble to be what you can expect if you try to get help somewhere else. Remember we all have problems here. Read some of the other posts by the person who indulged in namecalling and made fun of your experience here. I think that will make it easier for you to forgive her . I hope so.
I like you and hope you haven't taken this experience too much to heart. It's only a bulletin board ;)((((((((((((((((((((((Hannah and Others in Despair))))))))))))))))))))
Dasypodidae
> If you're reading this you have just survived Thanksgiving! Congratulations and God Bless us everyone!
>
> :-D
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.