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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by TomV on November 7, 2000, at 14:13:26
(As I ponder which board I should be posting this message to...)
I've posted on medical psycho babble before about how I slid into a major depression thats lasted the last 4 years due to early age trauma. The origin of my depression dates back to my father's death when I was age 7 (I'm 33 now). I carried around this heavy baggage my entire life, which in retrospect allowed me to have a happy childhood and a fair amount of happiness as an adult. I did have some mild to moderate bouts of depression through out my life, but right now I'm definitely paying the fiddler!!
My depression is based in extreme sadness... loss of my father; loss of my innocence; loss, loss, loss! I've tried lots of meds. None seemed to last very long or work at all. It seems like the deep sadness always resurfaces, which causes me to think excessively and slide down the depressive hole. I'm really beginning to feel that I'm going to stay in this hole regardless of what treatment I get (medical or non-med). I've read about certain meds for certain types of depression (low level, chronic, major, etc), but I've never read about one for grief! If that pill exists point me in that direction!
It's been hard coming to grips with this pain. I just don't think there is any way to medicate it, therapize it, any way you look at it. My only hope is time. Thats a tough thing to hang your hat on. What really hurts most is nothing else in my life is really that bad. I have a good job (financial professional), wife, kids, nice home... everything alot of people would give their left arm for!
So, does anyone agree that sometimes, some things just can't be helped?
Posted by kellyR. on November 7, 2000, at 15:07:58
In reply to I don't think I can be helped..., posted by TomV on November 7, 2000, at 14:13:26
> (As I ponder which board I should be posting this message to...)
>
> I've posted on medical psycho babble before about how I slid into a major depression thats lasted the last 4 years due to early age trauma. The origin of my depression dates back to my father's death when I was age 7 (I'm 33 now). I carried around this heavy baggage my entire life, which in retrospect allowed me to have a happy childhood and a fair amount of happiness as an adult. I did have some mild to moderate bouts of depression through out my life, but right now I'm definitely paying the fiddler!!
>
> My depression is based in extreme sadness... loss of my father; loss of my innocence; loss, loss, loss! I've tried lots of meds. None seemed to last very long or work at all. It seems like the deep sadness always resurfaces, which causes me to think excessively and slide down the depressive hole. I'm really beginning to feel that I'm going to stay in this hole regardless of what treatment I get (medical or non-med). I've read about certain meds for certain types of depression (low level, chronic, major, etc), but I've never read about one for grief! If that pill exists point me in that direction!
>
> It's been hard coming to grips with this pain. I just don't think there is any way to medicate it, therapize it, any way you look at it. My only hope is time. Thats a tough thing to hang your hat on. What really hurts most is nothing else in my life is really that bad. I have a good job (financial professional), wife, kids, nice home... everything alot of people would give their left arm for!
>
> So, does anyone agree that sometimes, some things just can't be helped?
TomV.
I lost My father to suicide when I was 11yrs. old,It was the worst thing that happen to me.A dr. at the hospital I was at made me write a letter to him,So I could say goodbye something you really never get if they die suddenly.If you like I'll write what I wrote to him for you to see what I mean.It did help for me,& I'll always miss him but I'm not tring to kill myself to be w/ him anymore.
Posted by Racer on November 7, 2000, at 15:18:44
In reply to I don't think I can be helped..., posted by TomV on November 7, 2000, at 14:13:26
I don't agree that some things just can't be helped.
Sorry.
A lot of us have suffered losses in our lives. Grief is terrible. Sometimes it takes years to get through it. Note, please, the wording I used. Grief is something you pass through, not something you can go around.
If you've worked on getting through your grief, and it's still a major problem, something's wrong. Maybe the old losses are excuses you're using to avoid grieving about whatever is really bothering you now. Maybe you've learned a habit of focussing onto your early loss of your father all of the angst that you hit in later life. Maybe you're disatisfied with what you're doing, and your grief is part of your self pity. Maybe you don't really believe that it's OK to find yourself wondering if there isn't something more than this to life, and so you excuse yourself by saying that you lost your father young and can't get over it.
Regardless of the reasons for your continuing grief, sadness or depression, I believe with all my heart, mind and soul that something can be done about it.
Posted by Mark H. on November 7, 2000, at 18:04:57
In reply to No. » TomV, posted by Racer on November 7, 2000, at 15:18:44
Dear Tom,
I won't suggest that the death of your father *isn't* a factor in your depression, only that believing it to be the cause may hold you back from healing (we can't undo our early influences, especially the death of a parent).
We get to choose our beliefs, however, and one belief to consider trying on is that the "cause" of depression is completely irrelevant (despite an almost universal desire to understand why something like depression is happening to "me"). Another belief to experiment with is that you can move through this, regardless of what has happened to you in the past.
If these beliefs seem preposterous at the moment, please consider the possibility that they are no more illusory or false than any other belief we have about ourselves, and that they may hold more potential for healing. It's OK to approach them with skepticism, as long as you keep an open mind.
Whether you are ever free of depression or not, I *believe* you can move through your father-grief to a place of deep personal release and freedom. I'd like to know how it goes for you.
Best wishes,
Mark H.
Posted by Hannah on November 7, 2000, at 18:33:14
In reply to I don't think I can be helped..., posted by TomV on November 7, 2000, at 14:13:26
I'd like to recommend a book Necessary Losses
The Loves, Illusions, Dependencies, and Impossible Expectations That All of Us Have to Give Up in Order to Grow by Judith Viorst. I think the title sums it up. I don't think you should attempt to medicalize this very real and painful part of life. I think you can be helped but probably not by medication. And I don't think it will be easy and I don't minimize your very real pain and grief. There comes a time in everyone's life when the awful losses that life involves including the realization of our own mortality start staring us down. I think one problem with all the Prozac ads is that pain is seen as abnormal, I think it's necessary for life.
I wish you the strength and wisdom to live through this.
> (As I ponder which board I should be posting this message to...)
>
> I've posted on medical psycho babble before about how I slid into a major depression thats lasted the last 4 years due to early age trauma. The origin of my depression dates back to my father's death when I was age 7 (I'm 33 now). I carried around this heavy baggage my entire life, which in retrospect allowed me to have a happy childhood and a fair amount of happiness as an adult. I did have some mild to moderate bouts of depression through out my life, but right now I'm definitely paying the fiddler!!
>
> My depression is based in extreme sadness... loss of my father; loss of my innocence; loss, loss, loss! I've tried lots of meds. None seemed to last very long or work at all. It seems like the deep sadness always resurfaces, which causes me to think excessively and slide down the depressive hole. I'm really beginning to feel that I'm going to stay in this hole regardless of what treatment I get (medical or non-med). I've read about certain meds for certain types of depression (low level, chronic, major, etc), but I've never read about one for grief! If that pill exists point me in that direction!
>
> It's been hard coming to grips with this pain. I just don't think there is any way to medicate it, therapize it, any way you look at it. My only hope is time. Thats a tough thing to hang your hat on. What really hurts most is nothing else in my life is really that bad. I have a good job (financial professional), wife, kids, nice home... everything alot of people would give their left arm for!
>
> So, does anyone agree that sometimes, some things just can't be helped?
Posted by Lexie on November 7, 2000, at 18:43:06
In reply to Re: I Agree with Racer, posted by Mark H. on November 7, 2000, at 18:04:57
Although I believe the pain of losing your father is very real, the possibility that you could be suffering from something other than major depression could be very real. People with treatment resistant depression are often times misdiagnosed. I was originally diagnosed with major depression and not getting better my doctor retired when I went to another doctor I was diagnosed with Bipolar 2 disorder. When I was treated with the proper medications I began to respond and I am feeling well today. I take topamax for the moods and Lamictal for the depression. I am like you financialy secure a spouse of 17 years and a healthy child everything anyone could want. Although I occasionly have to dig my way out of a very dark place. Now that I have been diagnosed with bipolar those days are becoming fewer and fewer. I lost a 42 year old brother to cancer just 2 years ago so I to know grief, but know where near the extent to which you have felt and I feel for you. I wish you the best. Don't think you can never be helped. There is someone out there that can help you. I finally found a doctor and therapist that has helped me. This year at Thanksgiving I have something to truely be thankful for. Lexie
Posted by shar on November 7, 2000, at 20:41:14
In reply to I don't think I can be helped..., posted by TomV on November 7, 2000, at 14:13:26
I think you posted to the right board. I will agree with other posters that the absolute position of "can't be helped" is one I disagree with. It also depends on what you consider being helped would be like. Ie, a med you could take and feel happy, or talk therapy that would make you happy in a few weeks. I don't believe that will happen.
I believe talk therapy, with a good therapist, can be excellent for dealing with grief, and understanding grief and how we sweep it under the carpet in this country. Even reading something like Kubler-Ross "On death and dying" could help. My father died when I was 14, and it took years and years for me to go through the grief.
Your experience of depression, as others have said, may or may not be absolutely related to the loss of your father. Probably it is a contributing factor to your depression, but not the cause. Whether it is caused by biology or life experience, there is probably more for you to do in order to be better.
How about a complete physical, thyroid test, liver function tests, and whatever else you can rule out physically. Then, finding a knowledgeable p-doc, and working on finding a med that will help you and giving it a chance to work. Finally, when your head is above water, I strongly recommend talk therapy, to help you identify and process some of your sadness, and help you recognize that you are also having other feelings in the here and now.
Best of luck to you. Probably you'll do a fair amount of crying, and that will help your sadness "get out."
Shar
> (As I ponder which board I should be posting this message to...)
>
> I've posted on medical psycho babble before about how I slid into a major depression thats lasted the last 4 years due to early age trauma. The origin of my depression dates back to my father's death when I was age 7 (I'm 33 now). I carried around this heavy baggage my entire life, which in retrospect allowed me to have a happy childhood and a fair amount of happiness as an adult. I did have some mild to moderate bouts of depression through out my life, but right now I'm definitely paying the fiddler!!
>
> My depression is based in extreme sadness... loss of my father; loss of my innocence; loss, loss, loss! I've tried lots of meds. None seemed to last very long or work at all. It seems like the deep sadness always resurfaces, which causes me to think excessively and slide down the depressive hole. I'm really beginning to feel that I'm going to stay in this hole regardless of what treatment I get (medical or non-med). I've read about certain meds for certain types of depression (low level, chronic, major, etc), but I've never read about one for grief! If that pill exists point me in that direction!
>
> It's been hard coming to grips with this pain. I just don't think there is any way to medicate it, therapize it, any way you look at it. My only hope is time. Thats a tough thing to hang your hat on. What really hurts most is nothing else in my life is really that bad. I have a good job (financial professional), wife, kids, nice home... everything alot of people would give their left arm for!
>
> So, does anyone agree that sometimes, some things just can't be helped?
Posted by pullmarine on November 7, 2000, at 21:17:17
In reply to I don't think I can be helped..., posted by TomV on November 7, 2000, at 14:13:26
Like u, there have been many losses in my life, startinng at age 11. 6- 11 is considered to be a particularly vulnerable age to suffer from bereavement. >
> My depression is based in extreme sadness... loss of my father; loss of my innocence; loss, loss, loss!I've suffered the same losses. Unfortunatlly, these losses (and their psycho-emotional consequences) are prerequisites to growth and wisdom. (please read the little prince, the story is a good metaphor for the necessary losses that one has to go through in life+ and see the film: torchsong trilogy, where a jewish mother talks to her son about the necessity of grief)
I've tried lots of meds. None seemed to last very long or work at all. It seems like the deep sadness always resurfaces, which causes me to think excessively and slide down the depressive hole. I'm really beginning to feel that I'm going to stay in this hole regardless of what treatment I get (medical or non-med).There are no magic pills. A lot, if not most, of the recovery depends on your own personal effort.
I've read about certain meds for certain types of depression (low level, chronic, major, etc), but I've never read about one for grief! If that pill exists point me in that direction!
>Some pills against grief:
The little prince 10p. every morning
Torchsong trilogy, 1 single dose
Volunteering at a food bank or aids clinic
5 times a week
Keeping your brain busy (try harry potter)
Puppies and kittens
Excercise
> It's been hard coming to grips with this pain.Tell me about it
>I just don't think there is any way to medicate it, therapize it, any way you look at it.
I agree 100%
>My only hope is time.
Time with no effort on your part might not be enough!What really hurts most is nothing else in my life is really that bad. I have a good job (financial professional), wife, kids, nice home... everything alot of people would give their left arm for!
Ditto. Read The little prince, >
> So, does anyone agree that sometimes, some things just can't be helped?
YUP!!!!
JOHN
Posted by coral on November 8, 2000, at 9:18:57
In reply to I don't think I can be helped..., posted by TomV on November 7, 2000, at 14:13:26
Dear Tom,
No, I don't agree.... there is help. I think I can empathize with the lack of relief you're experiencing. The first depressive episode I experienced lasted three and a half years, before I got the tiniest bit of relief (11 docs... including the head of psychiatry at a major reaching hospital all failed to help....) My father died during the depression. My brother died when I was 23.... Now, I'm dealing with those issues.... one tiny bit at a time....
However, I did experience six years, depression free, between the first episode and the second episode that's now concluding...
Keep searching.... I found both therapy and meds (the right combination which took FOREVER to find....)
Good luck...
Coral
PS Of course it hurts when everything else in your life is fine and THAT should help you continue the drive to find help. I damned near destroyed everything in my life during the first depression; marriage, business, family, friends, finances.... and am still rebuilding... Work to save what you have.
Posted by TomV on November 8, 2000, at 10:10:10
In reply to Re: I don't think I can be helped... » TomV, posted by kellyR. on November 7, 2000, at 15:07:58
> > TomV.
> I lost My father to suicide when I was 11yrs. old,It was the worst thing that happen to me.A dr. at the hospital I was at made me write a letter to him,So I could say goodbye something you really never get if they die suddenly.If you like I'll write what I wrote to him for you to see what I mean.It did help for me,& I'll always miss him but I'm not tring to kill myself to be w/ him anymore.Kelly,
Thanks for the message. I did "write a letter" to my father. Can't say it helped much. Might try to write another one again soon.
Thanks
Tom
Posted by TomV on November 8, 2000, at 10:33:33
In reply to No. » TomV, posted by Racer on November 7, 2000, at 15:18:44
> I don't agree that some things just can't be helped.
>
> Sorry.>** No reason to be sorry.
> A lot of us have suffered losses in our lives. Grief is terrible. Sometimes it takes years to get through it. Note, please, the wording I used. Grief is something you pass through, not something you can go around.
>
**You said a mouthful. I am going right through the teeth of grief. My problem is I want to move on as soon as possible; my mind is telling me otherwise. Also, using the time period "years" for a healing period is what scares me most.> If you've worked on getting through your grief, and it's still a major problem, something's wrong. Maybe the old losses are excuses you're using to avoid grieving about whatever is really bothering you now. Maybe you've learned a habit of focussing onto your early loss of your father all of the angst that you hit in later life. Maybe you're disatisfied with what you're doing, and your grief is part of your self pity. Maybe you don't really believe that it's OK to find yourself wondering if there isn't something more than this to life, and so you excuse yourself by saying that you lost your father young and can't get over it.
** I've wondered alot at the possibility that I may be avoiding my grief but that is definitely not the case. I feel it every minute of every day, in my chest, in my head, in my whole body. The only thing is I don't spend too much time thinking about my father. I've conciously put him in the past. As far as learning bad habits, I definitely have my share.
You do raise some good points about things that can (and did) occur later in life that have some bearing on depression, but I can definitely say that using my father as an excuse to not move on is not one of them. If anything, I probably don't think about him enough.
>
Regardless of the reasons for your continuing grief, sadness or depression, I believe with all my heart, mind and soul that something can be done about it.** I've tried alot of meds and therapy to move on, but as you know it can get very complicated. I do believe there is a way I can move on but so far no one has shown me the way to the light. Yet.
Tom
**
Posted by shar on November 8, 2000, at 10:52:00
In reply to Re: No. » Racer, posted by TomV on November 8, 2000, at 10:33:33
You wrote "The only thing is I don't spend too much time thinking about my father. I've conciously put him in the past."
-----I don't understand how you can grieve about your father if you don't think about him, about the things you did together, about the words he spoke to you, that he didn't see you graduate, get married, be successful. Grieving--at least part of it, is about acknowledging all those losses. Grief has to Come Out. To feel it you have to make it present, in the here and now. You have to be aware of what it is you miss. What it is you will never experience again with that person. Feeling the loss, instead of putting it in the past or stuffing it and getting depressed. Tell someone about your father, what he was like, what your favorite "dad" story is, what you miss most, Get it Out. Put it on the airwaves. Then it is not stuck inside you.
You wrote: "I do believe there is a way I can move on but so far no one has shown me the way to the light."
-----I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for someone to show you the light. There is nobody that knows what you need better than you. You may be resisting what you need (as do we all at times), but there are really only a certain number of options, and it is up to you to take steps to reach them. You have to make the move, nobody can do that for you.
Good luck, I hope you take a step toward healing.
Shar
Posted by TomV on November 8, 2000, at 11:34:58
In reply to Re: I Agree with Racer, posted by Mark H. on November 7, 2000, at 18:04:57
> Dear Tom,
>
> I won't suggest that the death of your father *isn't* a factor in your depression, only that believing it to be the cause may hold you back from healing (we can't undo our early influences, especially the death of a parent).
>
> We get to choose our beliefs, however, and one belief to consider trying on is that the "cause" of depression is completely irrelevant (despite an almost universal desire to understand why something like depression is happening to "me"). Another belief to experiment with is that you can move through this, regardless of what has happened to you in the past.
>
> If these beliefs seem preposterous at the moment, please consider the possibility that they are no more illusory or false than any other belief we have about ourselves, and that they may hold more potential for healing. It's OK to approach them with skepticism, as long as you keep an open mind.
>
> Whether you are ever free of depression or not, I *believe* you can move through your father-grief to a place of deep personal release and freedom. I'd like to know how it goes for you.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Mark H.Dear Mark,
I'm not 100% certain, but I do believe you were one of many to respond to one of my posts regarding my situation earlier this summer. I think I remember you guiding me to a posting about your own story, and that you wrote a very thoughtful post to me in response. I thank you for that.
I guess what I clearly need to convey about my depression is that I am sure, without uncertainty, that my father's death is at the "root" of it. I use the term root somewhat loosely because there have been other events that have unfolded later on in life that have a bearing on my situation today. But the tributaries all flow back to same rivers from the same ocean. Compressed, repressed, grief for a young developing boy can do damage to his mind without him ever knowing it. I guess thats the best way of describing what happened to me. The pain was so overwhelming that not only could I not deal with this negative emotion but all negative emotions that came after that. I did develop an anxiety/dissociative disorder because of this pain, but I've come to learn it saved me in some strange way. The problem is that was then and this is now.
Another problem I'm experiencing is a damaged belief system. I always believed that I could control this pain. And for many, many years I did. But letting it engulf me today is sorta against what I learned in the past, how to cope, etc. Thats why I say it feels like I can't really be helped RIGHT NOW, but someday in the future the clouds will lift. On their own? With someone's help? I don't know. But I am confident I'll come through this a stronger person.
Let me just finish by saying that I sense you are genuinely concerned about what happens to me. I'll try to keep you informed as I also hope that you have moved to a "place of deep personal release and freedom". Wow, wouldn't I love to join you there...
Posted by TomV on November 8, 2000, at 11:47:10
In reply to Maybe a differn't diagnosis, posted by Lexie on November 7, 2000, at 18:43:06
> Although I believe the pain of losing your father is very real, the possibility that you could be suffering from something other than major depression could be very real. People with treatment resistant depression are often times misdiagnosed. I was originally diagnosed with major depression and not getting better my doctor retired when I went to another doctor I was diagnosed with Bipolar 2 disorder. When I was treated with the proper medications I began to respond and I am feeling well today. I take topamax for the moods and Lamictal for the depression. I am like you financialy secure a spouse of 17 years and a healthy child everything anyone could want. Although I occasionly have to dig my way out of a very dark place. Now that I have been diagnosed with bipolar those days are becoming fewer and fewer. I lost a 42 year old brother to cancer just 2 years ago so I to know grief, but know where near the extent to which you have felt and I feel for you. I wish you the best. Don't think you can never be helped. There is someone out there that can help you. I finally found a doctor and therapist that has helped me. This year at Thanksgiving I have something to truely be thankful for. Lexie
Lexie,
I did fail to mention that I do have a coexisting diagnosis (anxiety/dissociative disorder), but that is in remission. The trade off of being released from that condition is major depression. Nice trade, huh? I'd rather trade some of my old baseball cards instead.
Its funny you mentioned some of those meds (topamax, lamictal, etc). My newest Pdoc has put me on neurontin with the possibility that I can try both of the meds you mentioned later on. I can say with certainty that I'm not bipolar, but when I mentioned trying lamictal to my last Pdoc, he refused, and I will never forget what he said..."Thou are not bipolar"... I guess we were going to stick with medical science only.
Anyway, its not that I'm not seeking help (I also see a therapist), its just that in some twisted way I'm getting this feeling that I can't be helped by anyone else but myself. But that doesn't mean I've given up trying.
Thanks,
Tom
Posted by TomV on November 8, 2000, at 11:59:57
In reply to Re: I don't think I can be helped... » TomV, posted by shar on November 7, 2000, at 20:41:14
> I think you posted to the right board. I will agree with other posters that the absolute position of "can't be helped" is one I disagree with. It also depends on what you consider being helped would be like. Ie, a med you could take and feel happy, or talk therapy that would make you happy in a few weeks. I don't believe that will happen.
>
> I believe talk therapy, with a good therapist, can be excellent for dealing with grief, and understanding grief and how we sweep it under the carpet in this country. Even reading something like Kubler-Ross "On death and dying" could help. My father died when I was 14, and it took years and years for me to go through the grief.
>**Need a good grief book to read, thanks for the suggestion. I should also mention that I've been in talk/cognitive therapy for the last 4 years also.
> Your experience of depression, as others have said, may or may not be absolutely related to the loss of your father. Probably it is a contributing factor to your depression, but not the cause. Whether it is caused by biology or life experience, there is probably more for you to do in order to be better.
>
**Let's just say that I'm certain where my depression "originated" . That's not to say that I haven't had adverse life experience after his death, but that's like comparing a water pistol to a shotgun blast. Everything after his death is a distant secondary issue. The main issue is my inability to deal with the most negative emotions there are.> How about a complete physical, thyroid test, liver function tests, and whatever else you can rule out physically. Then, finding a knowledgeable p-doc, and working on finding a med that will help you and giving it a chance to work. Finally, when your head is above water, I strongly recommend talk therapy, to help you identify and process some of your sadness, and help you recognize that you are also having other feelings in the here and now.
**Had all the tests. I can honestly say that other than my mental health I'm in good physical condition, to the best of my knowledge. Working with a new Pdoc now...
>
Best of luck to you. Probably you'll do a fair amount of crying, and that will help your sadness "get out."**I think I've literally cried a river these last 4 years. Sometimes its all I have left.
>
> Shar
>
>
>
Posted by noa on November 9, 2000, at 14:46:55
In reply to Grieving » TomV, posted by shar on November 8, 2000, at 10:52:00
There are a couple of books about loss and greiving on Dr. Bob's "read" page.
Posted by stjames on November 15, 2000, at 22:02:24
In reply to I don't think I can be helped..., posted by TomV on November 7, 2000, at 14:13:26
I don't see thearpy mentioned. Also keep in mind that while everyone can list the reasons why they feel whatever these reasons are rarely the true
reasons. This is what thearpy is about, getting to the true feeling, the ones we don't think about
because we "can't" or "will not".james
Posted by angelrose on November 15, 2000, at 23:48:46
In reply to Re: I don't think I can be helped..., posted by stjames on November 15, 2000, at 22:02:24
I have lost both parents in the last 5 years and I'm currently in the process of divorcing from my husband.
There are no magic pills, I wish there were. Therapy has been a life- saver. It is the one thing I'm completely dedicated to. No one is going to fix me but ME.
It's hard and yes, time is a great healer, but it does get EASIER.
I know there are also support groups. The more you talk about it, the more you will let go and heal.I wish you all the best.
This is the end of the thread.
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