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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by emilyp on April 2, 2010, at 17:50:19
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 2, 2010, at 15:54:47
Maybe another way to think about this is not how your therapist feels but how your husband might feel if he learned what you are seeking. You say that the two of you love each other yet you seem so intent on finding out whether someone else has feelings for you. What if the tables were turned and your husband was seeking such information from another woman? Would that hurt you or have an effect on your marriage?
I don't mean to be critical, but I think you should carefully consider how you are reacting to the situation. Whether it is love or transference, the point is that your therapist is not available. Your husband is. It does not mean that you cannot have a very meaningful and productive relationship with your therapist. But you also need to put it in its proper place. Many patients feel as you do; almost all get over it. Don't let your need to know have a negative impact on the relationship with your therapist or the relationship with your husband (or both). Also, just because certain individuals have allowed the patient - therapist relationship to progress to a point where such feelings are expressed does not make it right. Don't think simply because one person has learned of a therapist's feelings you are entitled to or should hear your therapist's thoughts.
Posted by widget on April 2, 2010, at 18:22:38
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by emilyp on April 2, 2010, at 17:50:19
But what is wrong with knowing the feelings of the therapist? I really want to understand.
Posted by emilyp on April 2, 2010, at 19:56:43
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 2, 2010, at 18:22:38
1. You did not answer the question about how you would feel if the tables were turned. Do you really think you would not feel hurt?
2. Is it possible that if you ask, you would be putting a lot of pressure on your therapist? If you really love him, do you want to exert that pressure? (And in this case, you cannot fall back on the excuse that I read on this board a lot - that therapy is intended to make the patient feel better, not the therapist. The therapist has no obligation to tell you.)
3. Why do you need to know? Will you feel better about yourself, superior to others? You need to ask yourself that because it seems as if you don't know.
4. How will you feel if he does not have the same feelings for you? What if he does not have any feelings for you, beyond as a patient? How will that affect your relationship with the therapist? How will that make you feel about yourself?
5. What are you going to do if you know? Do you know for sure you don't want things to go beyond just knowing.
Unless you know the answers to all these questions AND you think the answers are harmless, then maybe you have the right to know. But if you cannot honestly answer each of these questions, then perhaps it is indicative of why you should not ask.
Finally, if the above does not work, maybe remind yourself of the saying, "you cannot always get what you want." That is life. I would like to win the lottery, but guess what, it will probably not happen. Kids don't always understand this, but as an adult, I would think you should.
Posted by emmanuel98 on April 2, 2010, at 20:42:09
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 2, 2010, at 18:22:38
What is wrong with a therapist telling a patient that they have romantic feelings toward him/her is that it destroys the "as if" nature of therapy. Therapy is a place where you explore your feelings and what they mean to you. Not where you explore the therapist's feelings. My therapist was always willing to say that he liked me, cared about me, wanted me to get well, appreciated how hard I worked, but he would never tell me that he had fantasies about me. If he had that would have destroyed the safety of therapy. Suddenly the therapy becomes about your mutual feelings for one another and not about you.
My therapist had nothing but contempt for therapists who couldn't adhere to this simple boundary. I understand it also because I am a teacher. Occasionally I found a student particularly attractive, but I didn't express this or talk about this because it would change the nature of the relationship and make the relationship unsafe for the student.
Posted by Daisym on April 3, 2010, at 2:16:00
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by emmanuel98 on April 2, 2010, at 20:42:09
I've been following this thread somewhat sadly. So many shoulds, should nots...
I think you already know that what needs to happen is an exploration of why it is so important for you to know his feelings and why right now? Why at this point in your therapy?
It makes perfect sense to me that it is important to know if he could care about you given that he knows ALL about you. Being held in someone's mind, having this secure attachment, is a really big part of forming a stable, solid self-core. He knows that your loving feelings are very real - the rules about what you do with these feelings are different. But being allowed to love someone intensely, with all the good and bad parts of you and without shame, is another way in which you will build strength into your core self. Kids figure out that they are cared for by another, even when they aren't with that person, usually by how they were treated. As adults, we don't always assume this to be true - so we ask questions. We don't trust our own perceptions. I believe that all questions should be allowed in therapy - but they may not all be answered.
And I will respectfully disagree with whomever said this isn't the issue you came into therapy for. Presenting issues rarely are the core work that needs to be done -- sometimes, but usually it takes a great deal of work and trust to dig down to this type of deep work. My therapist tells me often that "this" - my mistrust of our relationship, my fear of my needs, especially for him, my inability to believe that I matter - "this" is the major part of me that is in therapy.
It is a really painful place - and probably loaded with lots of old stuff. Good luck Monday.
Posted by widget on April 3, 2010, at 8:26:05
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by emmanuel98 on April 2, 2010, at 20:42:09
Thank you. What you said makes sense. I wasn't seeing this as a boundary issue but slowly am coming to believe it is. And, that is why I will never get a direct answer to whether this man has special feelings for me.
I do love my husband and have come to believe I can love two people at the same time. I don't mean to act on it but these are just my true, gut level feelings.
Posted by widget on April 3, 2010, at 8:33:58
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by emilyp on April 2, 2010, at 19:56:43
In answer to question 1, I would feel very hurt if the tables were turned. You seem angry that I have this issue. It is just that, an issue. I am sorry if I have upset you in some way. I am trying my hardest to understand myself in this. And, I'm quite sure he (therapist) does not have "special" feelings for me. He has said the same things to me that the other poster, Daisym, wrote about her therapist. I am a psychologist and am amazed at my feelings and wonder what is going on. Frankly, I think my feelings are "breaking through." I can assure you this will not hurt my relationship with my therapist. He will not tell me what he does not think is appropriate to tell me.
Posted by emilyp on April 3, 2010, at 10:34:38
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 3, 2010, at 8:33:58
I am not angry in any way. While I am sure you will disagree, I just find it selfish on your part, both as it relates to your husband and your therapist. (Perhaps the only thing that is 'personal' to me is that I do not tolerate selfish behavior.) A poster made reference to kids. We are not kids, we are adults. And to be an adult, you should learn that life is not simply what we want but should actively consider what others think. Several people on this board think therapy gives you the right to be selfish and care mostly about yourself. Perhaps that is true in the therapists office - I don't believe that is true outside the office. But obviously you do, so ask whatever you need. I hope you find what you want.
Posted by Willful on April 3, 2010, at 11:29:35
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by Daisym on April 3, 2010, at 2:16:00
Since I believe that was part of my point, I have to respectfully say that I didn't suggest that the need to have someone's therapist be in love with them is not the surface manifestation of an issue. But I also think if you get stuck on discussing that--if or when the therapy becomes primarily thinking about, or discussing whether or how the therapist loves you-- rather than continuing the other work-- you won't discover the issues underneath or around it, or come to understand the deeper scenarios of need and desire that are represented by it.
No one, certainly not me, is doubting that we need to feel valued and cared about by our therapists, or have a secure attachment.
My concern is that if you start talking about your desire for love, and have spent years focussed on it, in a way that disrupts the other work of therapy, you'll be caught in a web of confusion and continual questioning. The questions about love and caring are always there--perhaps-- but if the therapist's actions and presence haven't been sufficient to give that assurance, simply getting an"answer" won't either. Of course, it's an issue to discuss at times-- if we're talking about the security of the attachment--,, possibly even a lot, if done from the point of view of wondering why or how it's so up for grabs in your mind and what in your history or present created/or creates it-- When it's about "having feelings" of the type that I think widget means, a lot of suffering and even harm lies down that path. Again, that's not to say that the issue can't be usefully and even crucially discussed-- but only to say that if the discussion only revolves around "how do you (the therapist) really feel" it isn't a a long term strategy for growth or healing.
Willful
Posted by widget on April 3, 2010, at 16:16:33
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by Daisym on April 3, 2010, at 2:16:00
Dear Daisym, Thank you for you kind and thoughtful response. My therapist would agree with you that anything can be discussed in therapy. He has told me that the worst thing to do in a situation involving "transference" (his words, not mine) is to NOT talk about it. According to him, that is when it is most likely to be acted out.
I do not see myself as selfish and hope I would not label others as I have been labelled. I am really trying to work this out. I am very respectful to my therapist and my husband.
Thanks for the good luck wish on Monday. I do believe all will be well.
Posted by Daisym on April 4, 2010, at 20:07:30
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 3, 2010, at 16:16:33
I guess what I'm most struck by is the notion that you are choosing to have these feelings - that you are being "selfish" (to quote Emilyp)by choice - on purpose. As if your therapist is "just" another man that could be compared to your husband - like you would ever be so intimate with another male in any other situation. As if you wouldn't change how you feel if you could.
This is what needs to be worked through - it needs to be understood in the context of you, your history and all your other relationships. I'm glad you have such a safe place to struggle with this. I hope you don't let the way you've been labeled deter you from the struggle. It sounds so important.
Posted by widget on April 5, 2010, at 7:10:54
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by Daisym on April 4, 2010, at 20:07:30
Dear Daisym, Thank you so much for your validation. No, I am not choosing to have these feeling. In fact, I told my therapist I wish is could simply have this part of me "cut out", surgically, of course. I can only tell you that the feelings are compelling yet I do understand what makes therapy safe. And, I do know my therapist is totally safe.
I have been rather dreading today's session. Yesterday was a tough day as the time approached.
I'll let you know what happens and know that it will not be as big a deal as my imagination is making it. You have been a godsend. Thanks for being there!
Posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:10:11
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 5, 2010, at 7:10:54
((Widget))): As i told my t: i certainly didn't go into therapy (it was for a church dispute), hoping I could complicate my life by falling in love with him.
7 years later, the feelings are the same.
It would have been better for ME, if he had never let me know of his struggles with his feelings for me.
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:15:35
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:10:11
Dear Sassyf, If you feel you can tell me, why did that make it more difficult for you? I would really like to know to apply it to my situation. Thanks so much for sharing!
Posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:42:40
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:15:35
Because then it wasn't just MY feelings, but having to wonder and deal with HIS stuff.....stuff happened last night and I am very upset...long story; I basically walked out angry and hurt. For 7 years, after we are done, I sit on the couch while he writes his notes and then we leave together.....it seems he wants to change this and have me leave when we are done. Fels very cruel to me. I have had enough chaos and change in my life to last a lifetime.
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:45:58
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 5, 2010, at 7:10:54
Dear Daisym, I am somewhat confused about my session with therapist on Monday. He began by talking about my issues with safety and, basically, showed me what had been missing in my childhood that makes safety such a huge issue. I certainly agreed with him. I asked him if this was the cause of my feelings for him and he said that he did not want to invalidate my feelings.
ok. But, then, toward the end of the session, he said that I did not know him well enough to love him. That I only knew him in therapy. He said real love means embracing every aspect of the other person. This confuses me as he had previously said he would not invalidate my feelings but it sure felt like it. I was speechless.
It wasn't until that evening that I got extremely angry with him. I do feel invalidated. I have always felt he was very respectful of what I say and this statement he made felt like the ultimate trump card on his part. After all, he is correct; I don't know the everyday him. Therefore, my feelings are invalid? I see him tomorrow and don't know how to talk to him about this. It will definitely affect the therapy. And, it makes me see him as high-handed, judgemental, and arrogant! Do you have any advice? Thanks! Widget
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:47:49
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:45:58
To Daisym, I took so long in writing this because I was so upset and unsure how to present it!
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:52:07
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:47:49
Dear Sassy, I am really sorry about what you are going through. It sounds so hurtful. I appreciate that you could share this with me. I suppose that would be the down side to having the therapist reveal his feelings. It would change the dynamic; I just wondered exactly how it changed it as I don't imagine I will ever find out. Sincerely, Widget
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:54:14
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:52:07
Sassy, do you feel powerless to do anything about what he requests in your situation? Is that what happens, too? The therapist is still in charge? I'm trying to put myself in your position. widget
Posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:57:57
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 10:45:58
((Widget)) I would tell him you felt/feel invalidated, and that you love who/what you PERCEIVE him to be. Love is real...You love what you know and feel about him.
You don't have to totally know anyone to love them.
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:18:44
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by sassyfrancesca on April 7, 2010, at 10:57:57
Dear sassy, Those are wise words. Just because I don't happen to meet HIS criteria for "love" does not mean my feelings are not real. It does mean that he cannot take my feelings seriously because of his definition of love. And, I guess, in all fairness, I must aceept that as I am trying to take people as they are. It is interesting to me that he threw that statement in at the end and why he did. Maybe to stop me from any more questions? I mean, it all seemed so final and a done-deal. With one statement, he ended the issue. Thanks! Widget
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:22:42
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:18:44
Hi,sassy, I just re-read your message and when he said what HIS rules are for love, I felt like saying, "oh, yeah, so what?" In other words, who made him the boss of love (except for himself). And, if that is his definition, that's that. I feel really tired to arguing the issue with him. My other response would have been, "I get it; I give up; you win). Widget
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:26:12
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:22:42
Can anyone tell me if it is true that you don't have to know everything about a person to feel love for that person? Does not knowing EVERYTHING automatically invalidate love? I was so confused by this that I have been looking up definitions of love on Goggle. I seem to meet the criteria. Widget
Posted by Daisym on April 7, 2010, at 13:35:16
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy, posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 11:26:12
You feel what you feel - the labels don't really matter. What one person calls "love" another might call "caring" and another might call "need" and another might call "lust." Each of us has a concept of what love is and what it feels like to us.
I think therapy love is real and very powerful. And yet fragile too. Your therapist says he cares about you but he only knows you for the same hour a week that you know him - you talk more but you choose what to tell and how to tell it - so how does he REALLY know you? The consistent interaction of another tells us a lot about them. And I think therapists often underestimate the observation powers of clients - we see, hear and feel lots of under currents. You love your therapist as your therapist. You might not love him as just a "man" - but that is irrelevent. It isn't the relationship you have and it isn't what you are working towards.
He made you doubt yourself and your feelings. I think in therapy, we are working on trusting ourself, identifying our feelings and coping with them. When I feel rage at my dad - I'm allowed to feel it completely in therapy. I wouldn't take the murdurous components of it out into the real world. And yet, no one would ever tell me, "you aren't really that mad."
So - best advice I have is to go in, tell him you are mad, tell him why and then be quiet. Let him own it. If he is anything like my therapist, he'll likely apologize, and really try to understand your feelings. I think sometimes it is hard for our therapists to see us suffering and so they say things that feel invalidating or minimizing because they are trying to make us feel better.
I actually asked my therapist if he ever developed strong feelings for his own therapist (when he was in training) - and he said yes. He said his issues were different from mine but he still wanted/needed his therapist's caring and attention. He often says to me, "who doesn't want to be cared about?"
I'm sorry this is so hard. Good luck.
Posted by widget on April 7, 2010, at 18:35:29
In reply to Re: Dilemma in Therapy » widget, posted by Daisym on April 7, 2010, at 13:35:16
Dear Daisym, Thank you so much for your encouraging and insightful response. It is best, of course, for me to do as you said and I want to!
I have a very difficult time with confrontations. This will be especially hard given whom I am confronting. I hate to keep asking you for help but do you have any idea how to begin? Usually, I go into the room, sit down, he sits down, he looks at me very seriously and asks "How are you?" And, it goes from there. I have a sense I need to verbalize then as we can easily be sidetracked and I can easily decide to let it go, at least for now. I don't think that is wise. Of course, I don't have to be argumentative and hostile. I can be calm and just state how I feel. Thanks, Daisym for your validation. Sincerely, Widget
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