![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Daisym on March 4, 2010, at 22:22:41
Or more accurately, WHAT do I really need him for? I am a very competent woman, who does not need day-to-day advice about life choices or work. In fact, when he starts giving me advice, I tend to shut down.But I KNOW that when we aren't connected, I do way worse. I feel sad and lost and my productivity goes down. And I'm much, much more anxious.
I'm struggling with my need for him again - the cycle is familiar. I have all the "shouldn'ts, mustn't - it isn't real" voices going off. I've been telling him, even as he feels me pulling away.
Today we talked about the possibility that I need him for emotional regulation. It isn't safe to feel any feelings when I'm not connected to him. But these feelings are insisting on being felt and dealt with - so I need him in order to do that. Otherwise I'm "fine" -- which means I'm numb. And being numb is sooo lonely and awful now. He thinks that I was taught to hide all feelings and reactions, since you never knew what you were going to get in return. So I never learned how to digest and integrate any intense feelings - happy or sad.
And the more aware I am of this deep need and the value of the connection, the more terrified I am that it will disappear. He tells me that is what all "humans" fear - losing someone they love. He sees it as a good thing.
Ug - I wish I could settle in and just allow the connection instead of struggling against it. I know I'm not here much anymore but this is something that almost no one understands, except my Babble friends. So -- thoughts?
Posted by Workinprogress on March 5, 2010, at 1:49:10
In reply to Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on March 4, 2010, at 22:22:41
Daisy- I don't necessarily have an answer, but wanted to ask if this and something else you posted recently are connected? (will copy it here). Tomorrow when I have more time I'll try to figure out why, but the two posts seem to say something together- I don't know why, but maybe you do. Or maybe you think I'm full of it. Hang in there, I think the relationship is both the hardest AND the most healing part of therapy.
Your previous post:
I get that. I think when you care deeply, you also worry about judgement. So it gets harder to reveal yourself because this person now matters a great deal and you are risking the relationship. But you wouldn't have the urge to reveal yourself unless there was a deep connection - so this is truly a rock and a hard place.
I think it is a lot like my circle of "I need you" and "I hate that you let me need you." It would be easier if he wasn't so open to all my needs because then I could squelch them. Instead, being open to them, without always meeting them, allows them to exist in a consistently painful way. And yet, the ones that are getting met make all the difference.
One thing I noticed is that my therapist is now "risking" with me too. He says things that 2 years ago he would never have said - pushes me but also reveals himself, his feelings and his thoughts. And digs into the dark places but also offers himself as the salve. I know he is still wary of certain things (like the word fantasy - "what is your fantasy about that?" use to make me crazy) but more and more he risks the rift to get us where we need to go. I guess he is confident I'm not going just quit or that I'm strong enough to think and feel things.
What is it that you think the love is getting in the way of? (sorry, bad grammar)
>
> Or more accurately, WHAT do I really need him for? I am a very competent woman, who does not need day-to-day advice about life choices or work. In fact, when he starts giving me advice, I tend to shut down.
>
> But I KNOW that when we aren't connected, I do way worse. I feel sad and lost and my productivity goes down. And I'm much, much more anxious.
>
> I'm struggling with my need for him again - the cycle is familiar. I have all the "shouldn'ts, mustn't - it isn't real" voices going off. I've been telling him, even as he feels me pulling away.
>
> Today we talked about the possibility that I need him for emotional regulation. It isn't safe to feel any feelings when I'm not connected to him. But these feelings are insisting on being felt and dealt with - so I need him in order to do that. Otherwise I'm "fine" -- which means I'm numb. And being numb is sooo lonely and awful now. He thinks that I was taught to hide all feelings and reactions, since you never knew what you were going to get in return. So I never learned how to digest and integrate any intense feelings - happy or sad.
>
> And the more aware I am of this deep need and the value of the connection, the more terrified I am that it will disappear. He tells me that is what all "humans" fear - losing someone they love. He sees it as a good thing.
>
> Ug - I wish I could settle in and just allow the connection instead of struggling against it. I know I'm not here much anymore but this is something that almost no one understands, except my Babble friends. So -- thoughts?
Posted by Dinah on March 5, 2010, at 8:53:38
In reply to Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on March 4, 2010, at 22:22:41
> "And the more aware I am of this deep need and the value of the connection, the more terrified I am that it will disappear. He tells me that is what all "humans" fear - losing someone they love. He sees it as a good thing."
Is it possible that this may be similar to my own fear. Because really needing a therapist is the only way to keep a relationship with a therapist. Once you no longer need them, you're supposed to graduate. Loss is supposed to be built into a therapy relationship. "I'll be here as long as you need me" they say.
It's similar in some ways to parental relationships, the difference being that when you start flying away from the nest, you're supposed to just keep flying. You aren't supposed to keep coming back from love or duty or eventually to care for them as they get older. The connection will always be there in a less tangible way, but let's face it. Intangible just isn't the same and it's not enough.
My experience has been that in the beginning, questioning and rejecting need had to do with distrust, the inequality of the relationship, and just the improbability of caring in that context.
But later there was a lot of the questioning of growing up. The recognition that I was getting stronger and handling things better, and that while I needed him just as much as ever, I didn't *need* him just as much as ever. The need wasn't so much that I'd collapse on the floor in a nonfunctioning heap and die without him.
Somehow the fears stay just as strong. And there are new things to have to deal with in every stage.
Or this may be more to do with me, and not useful to you at all at this point. :)
Posted by rnny on March 5, 2010, at 15:31:24
In reply to Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on March 4, 2010, at 22:22:41
Well, I think one reason you need him is because he helps you feel less lonely. He may even make you feel needed and wanted.
Posted by Annierose on March 5, 2010, at 17:20:53
In reply to Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on March 4, 2010, at 22:22:41
[darn - my post disappeared when I accidently hit another web site --- I'll do my best to re-create]
I think (most) everyone who reads this board can relate in some way to this statement: the therapy relationship is the most complicated relationship we will ever experience (well, besides the one we have with our mothers ....). We want them to tell us that whatever we are experiencing, whatever we are feeling, wherever we are in life that we will be OK. Well, maybe that's more about me and what I want ... but I think that some of the unsettling feelings (anxiety) come from not being okay with the following:
how long we have been in therapy
how many times a week we see our therapists
how important they are in our livesIt reves up our anxiety. I just read a blog somewhere (the web site I clicked when I lost my original post) and some woman (do not remember her credentials) wrote a book about therapists and their relationship with their clients --- a new book that was just released. Well this excited me until I read her little blurb that basically said, "you are not okay if your therapy is very important in your life." Well that shocked me and sent me reeling and questioning everything AGAIN.
And after freaking out I realized that this author did not represent me. Every person has their own story and their own path to adulthood. What got me to my current dysfunctional self isn't true for anyone else but me. I needed a therapist that would take me by the hand (figuratively) and represent the steady, loving adult I could look up to for reassurance, guidance, crisis management, parenting help, marraige counseling, etc. etc.
Most people luckily have an adult model in their head, a frame of referance of proper life skills. I have no such road map. Therefore I "need" my therapist to be that steady adult in my life. I "need" her to hold onto my emotions until I can unravel them in her office. I "need" her to help me find the words so that I can talk with my children, my husband, my co-workers (not all the time - I'm not completely brain dead - I'm talking about the hard conversations), I "need" to know that I'm likeable - that she laughs at my jokes, laughs at my stories, I "need" her to validate that what I experienced isn't okay - that it was neglect. I "need" my therapist in order to function more successfully in life DESPITE all outward appearances that fool everyone.
Your therapist is right. Feeling numb isn't feeling at all. Feeling real feelings is scary as hell - - - especially anger and love. Keep going, keep talking and know that he does care. As do I. To quote Dinah, this relationship is worth fighting for ... (and my own addition) even though we hate that we love them, and hate that they are important to us.
Posted by muffled on March 5, 2010, at 17:20:56
In reply to Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on March 4, 2010, at 22:22:41
Well, for me, I think...
I think I like to know there is a T cuz I don't trust mysownselfs.
Having a T in the background sorta is like a safety net.
Cuz I do OK, but sometimes I don't do so OK.
Sometimes I go wrong and it get out of control.
Not so bad now, but parts of self are still not trusting in self to not hurt them, cuz they have in the past.
So I dunno, mebbe T kinda a cross btwn a referee and a secuity guard or something! LOL!
Proly this dumb, but its best I can think of.
M
Posted by 64Bowtie on March 6, 2010, at 2:48:18
In reply to Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on March 4, 2010, at 22:22:41
So good to see y'alls...
Perhaps, to talk this stuff "to death"... That's not always such a bad thing... I, personally, feel lighter when I can air a glob of tangled logic...
I remember where I came from... I honestly thought my family (of origin) was open and free, free air our laundry for whomever...... What I had overlooked is that we were sheltered and cloistered by our bucolic surroundings, leaving us under-exposed to actual reality...
A 1000 twelve-step meetings later, I had a dose of (perhaps) overexposure to all the stuff we missed growing up as an isolated farm type family... Ergo, openness has taken on a whole new meaning... Now, openning up to a therapist can seem safer than openning up to strangers...
Rod
Posted by antigua3 on March 6, 2010, at 21:49:17
In reply to Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on March 4, 2010, at 22:22:41
My thoughts are that you are right where you are, and that's a good thing. You are learning to fly, but he is still keeping the nest for you to come home to.
Secondary rewards (what's the right word?) are strong reasons for continuing therapy, but they are still a part of therapy.
You want/still need the security that your T provides, and he willingly provides it so perhaps you could try not to struggle so much against the question and just let things happen.
I used to think about my therapy all the time, but I don't anymore, but that's because I know the past as well as I can and I'm trying to move on, and without any help from T or psychiatrist, I'm amazed at how well I really do feel.
It's funny, but I'm still left with some of the main issues that I thought were important. I've learned more than I can describe, and learning to live with ourselves, love and forgive ourselves, and start to put the past behind us. For me, a lot of it had to do with processing the events, which is allowing me to let them go, and letting them go has freed me up energy wise. Suppressing, denial and fighting back from knowing take a tremendous toll--in energy and physical health, but once things start to move through you and out of you in a way (not saying that right), you realize how much time and energy has been lost. I regret the lost, long years in many ways, but I had to know and understand. But that doesn't mean knowing solves everything. It's learning to adapt, but in a healthy way.
Sorry, not making a lot of sense, but I wanted to give you hope. You are doing the right things. He is helping you. You may not have gotten to the bottom of the well and ready to start rising from the bottom of it, but you'll recognize when it happens. It's a wonderful feeling. But the power of it, as painful as it may be in still wanting to need him, the power comes from you.
All my best, Daisy,
antigus
Posted by Daisym on March 17, 2010, at 0:22:51
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Daisym, posted by Workinprogress on March 5, 2010, at 1:49:10
Sorry about the delayed response but life has been super crazy. I cut back on my sessions and then freaked out and put them all back. This is all related to what I posted - fear of the closeness, fear of my feelings.
We keep talking about being in relationship to people who "know" what happened to me and those who don't and about how hard it is to keep hiding myself.
My therapist tells me that this is a major part of my therapy - learning to trust that getting my needs met isn't going to result in disaster. And learning to trust that the relationship can survive disappointment and anger on both our sides. He has shared his frustration with some of our interactions which is terrifying but provides the opportunity to survive something I fear - not being perfect. We even developed a new mantra for me, "Perfect is boring."I guess this is a really long way to say that I agree with you - the relationship is very healing.
Posted by Daisym on March 17, 2010, at 0:59:52
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Daisym, posted by Dinah on March 5, 2010, at 8:53:38
I think what you say makes a lot of sense. I "pre-grieve" this relationship all the time. And the more important it becomes to me, the less I can imagine not having it.
When I freaked out over cutting back, part of that was because it felt like the beginning of the end. One part of my brain felt ready, but my younger parts fragmented pretty badly. So does that mean I won't be ready until those parts are gone or integrated? Or maybe I won't be ready until my therapist is done - I'll have to have no other choice in order to come to terms with it.
What I do know is that once we agreed that up ending things wasn't working for me right now, the anxiety died way down and i felt functional again. I guess that tells me that I'm not ready to pull away - even as staying connected feels very dangerous.
So does that mean I still "need" my therapist? Here is one of the paradox's in all of this - I want to make my therapist happy. One of the ways to do this is to help him feel successful. If I was "cured" or better, or whatever, he would be successful - and therefore happy. I can't give him this gift. How selfish is that?
Posted by Daisym on March 17, 2010, at 1:43:16
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Daisym, posted by Annierose on March 5, 2010, at 17:20:53
Wow Annie - powerful post. You understand yourself and your therapy needs pretty well.
One of the discussions that has happened in the past month or so has been about how damaged I am around sex. I began wishing my therapist could teach me about sex and how to understand my triggers and reactions to things. We had several powerful conversations along these lines - what that would look like and what it would mean to our relationship. It wasn't as if we were planning to do it -but more it was allowing the idea to play itself out. His acceptance of these feelings was great and frightening. While he always made it clear that we were just talking and never would it happen, MY bravery around the conversation startled me. It shows you how desperate I am to be normal in this area.
But feeling this close - having these kinds of conversations, kicked off a tremendous need to pull way away - and examine this need. I scared myself, I think.
And then he had a personal emergency that reminded me of his "real" life and how I really am not part of it. It is so painful to run up against that, even though I think I know it already.
What you said about hating the need is absolutely true. But I'm not sure I hate the love. It is kind of like a secret smile I keep close to my heart. It feels good to be allowed to care about someone who demands nothing in return (except fees but that is another discussion!)
Posted by Daisym on March 17, 2010, at 1:45:19
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Daisym, posted by muffled on March 5, 2010, at 17:20:56
Not dumb at all.
I think the idea of safety is exactly right. In order to feel the feelings that come up, we need help. And I need to know that I won't get too close to that edge when I'm feeling really awful.
Posted by Daisym on March 17, 2010, at 1:59:24
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Daisym, posted by antigua3 on March 6, 2010, at 21:49:17
I appreciate the hope Antigua.
One of the things I've figured out is that I spend a lot more energy resisting the need for therapy and my therapist, than i do when I just allow it. It is very sad that what feels good also feels so dangerous. We've talked about all my worries in turning him "bad" - such little kid feelings but so big. It is humiliating sometimes to realize that you are operating from a fear place. But knowing it and changing it are very different things.
I'm glad you are doing well. I hope it is still true. I want you to have the supports you need but I also recognize your ability to understand and take care of yourself.
I hope I get there soon.
Posted by Daisym on March 17, 2010, at 2:01:03
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Daisym, posted by antigua3 on March 6, 2010, at 21:49:17
Thank you for your replies. I don't want to be twittered or face booked so I can't reply directly to what you posted.
I appreciate the support.
Posted by Kath on March 21, 2010, at 20:23:25
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Daisym, posted by muffled on March 5, 2010, at 17:20:56
Hi Muffled - I wanted to send you a babblemail, but your babblemail is turned off.
I wonder if you can send me one?
I want to get in touch with you & don't know how.
:-) Kath
Posted by muffled on March 21, 2010, at 20:31:44
In reply to MUFFLED » muffled, posted by Kath on March 21, 2010, at 20:23:25
Hi,
try toomuffled@gmail.com
Not sure if it will work or not, but try.
Thx
Posted by Raindancer on March 27, 2010, at 4:08:31
In reply to Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on March 4, 2010, at 22:22:41
Hi Daisy, Dinah and everyone, this is something I wrestle with too and it seems to be harder as time goes by. I see T about once every 3/4 weeks and after each session feel a real grief for several days, where the pain of loss is physical and I feel despair. After a few days, or a week or so (if a 4 week break), it becomes easier and I get on with my life, but my T is always a part of it and always in my thoughts. I tolerate it better than I did, probably because despite it all, I have 'grown'. I am now a T myself, and you would think it would be easier, but it just isn't. I have a terror that now I am much better T will stop caring - maybe lingering BPD, that fear of abandonment. Just lately I am 'losing' him after each session and there is just a void and it frightens me. I care for T very deeply, but even now, cannot often let myself think that T cares for me. I saw T yesterday, so there are three weeks and six days to go and after that, more of the same?
I can't thank you enough babblers, for just being there. There is no-one else in the wide world that I could tell this to. Warmest thoughts to you all.
Raindancer
Posted by Dinah on March 27, 2010, at 10:44:50
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Daisym, posted by Raindancer on March 27, 2010, at 4:08:31
You only see him once a month? :(
I was going to start a thread about how terrified I feel today. But I wasn't sure that anyone would understand that a mature stage of the therapeutic process can be every bit as terrifying as any other stage. My therapist is very good about not pecking me out of the nest. But... I want to hurl myself around his ankles and never let go.
Posted by Raindancer on March 27, 2010, at 19:38:25
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Raindancer, posted by Dinah on March 27, 2010, at 10:44:50
Dinah, I'm so sorry it has been tough for you today. I can so relate to that terrified feeling and trying to rationalise it, but the feelings just don't go away and you feel as if they should. I usually see T every 3 weeks but he couldn't make it so this time it is four. I am now seeing him as an essential part of the Higher Dip I am doing, but it has been nine years on and off and he is such a vital part of my life.
Sometimes I find myself trying to put him down in my head so that the loss is not so great when the session ends, but that feels worse because I know it isn't true. I want to call and ask him to bring the next session forward, but I won't because I feel he would see it as weakness, and calling a T is not something we normally do here.
It's not really surprising that we feel so much fear. It is probably the most intimate of all relationships, even though T doesn't share as much, but we talk to our Ts about things that would never come into everyday conversation and as you know, get to know them really well. There is so much to lose. I have told my T about you and that I, too, want to hold on to his leg and never let go.
I hope things are better for you tomorrow. I'm so glad you replied. I feel very close to you as you have helped us all so much over the years and have so much insight and wisdom.
(((Dinah)))
Posted by antigua3 on March 31, 2010, at 16:38:10
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Dinah, posted by Raindancer on March 27, 2010, at 19:38:25
I'd like to add hope to this discussion. I recently left my T, although I can see her when I need to, but I've found that I don't need her so much anymore, that I can handle more things on my own. When something really bad happens--memories, flashbacks, life events--I've found myself just handling it myself. Before I would have called her, but now I know in my head and heart what she would say to me and I do it.
But, I hadn't seen her for a few months--she was giving me an opportunity to fly on my own--and she was still wonderful, but I didn't feel that need for her anymore, although she still provides great insight and I still learn from her.
I don't feel this way at all about my psychiatrist. That's deep transference right now, and it's so difficult, especially when I see him every other week. I go through the same thing that Raindancer described, every time. I'm not finished with him yet, but it's a wonderful feeling of knowing that I was ready to leave my T. I'm lucky, I know, I can still reach out to her when I need her, but I don't feel a loss right now.
I don't think I've just transferred everything onto my psychiatrist. My T and psychiatrist are two very different people and serve two different needs in my life. But, I know how much it hurts.
So, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you're hurting so badly, and I hope it eases up for you, and for everyone. For me, it was a LONG time coming, so I'm not one to talk, really. I don't know, it just feels good to be in a different place with her.
Take care everyone. You are the best,
antigua
Posted by Daisym on April 1, 2010, at 0:44:00
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist?, posted by antigua3 on March 31, 2010, at 16:38:10
The past few weeks we have continued to explore these intense needs and my battle with them. The thing is, I'm the one battling myself. My therapist is really all about the attachment - he thinks it is necessary to heal and that it will, as Antigua points out, ease off when I'm ready.
I told him that I want to believe that he thinks of me on days that he doesn't see me - like over the weekend. But that felt wrong to want that and very demanding of me. He said he can't believe I still don't assume he does - since he tells me often when he thinks of me.
It all comes down to a basic question, "do I matter?" Especially if I don't do anything for the other person?
Sometimes therapy is unbelievably hard, isn't it?
Posted by muffled on April 1, 2010, at 9:08:32
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on April 1, 2010, at 0:44:00
whoah, that was a big part of the session B4 last.
T trying to explain we 'mattered' in this world.
We understood we mattered as a measure of our function.
T ssid I mattered to her. I said it was cuz I was a function of her job. That maybe she found me interesting cuz I am of her specialty. That maybe she wanted me to keep comming cuz she worried bout my kids.
My T is so NOT cosy. She never said she 'cared', LOL!!! just that I 'mattered'.
I kind of like it that way.
So it is a confusing topic for sure.
My old T used to say she cared(she was pastoral), but now she gone.
So I dunno what caring means. So I stick with mattering. Cuz it makes sense in the way that we function matters to others.
My thots.
Hope you doing ok Daisy.
M
Posted by Dinah on April 5, 2010, at 7:05:39
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Dinah, posted by Raindancer on March 27, 2010, at 19:38:25
Thank you, Raindancer. It means a lot to read that when I'm not particularly feeling positive about myself.
It's hard for me to judge what's really going on right now in my therapy. Apart from everything else, there's an undercurrent of wondering how genuine anything is in therapy.
It's very strange sometimes, and difficult to make sense of what happens and what I feel.
Posted by onceupon on April 6, 2010, at 0:41:10
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist?, posted by Daisym on April 1, 2010, at 0:44:00
Hi Daisy,
I don't come here much anymore, and when I do, I don't really post anything. When I saw your original post last month, I wanted to come out of lurkdom, but your topic hit too close to home for me to be able to. Even now, it hits way close to home, but I felt compelled to respond tonight, because I've been circling this same topic with my therapist (again).
You've given me the very sage advice in the past to try as best as possible to allow the connection without struggling against it - that it is so much *easier* when we can allow ourselves the connection - and yet, *just* allowing it feels damned near impossible sometimes.
I could have written your post, verbatim. Some days, I feel like the struggle is just interminable. Your question of, "Do I matter?" is *exactly* what my therapist and I have been talking about of late. She keeps pointing out that I do matter to others. Including her. She just about knocked me the couch last week when she told me, unprompted, that I matter to her. It seems like your therapist (like mine) gives you lots of signs that you do matter, a great deal. And yet, if you're anything like me, you doubt that you do matter down to the last atom of your being. To you, I can say that of course you are "doing something" (lots of things) for your therapist. And at the same time, I know from the inside out that it feels like that's really not the case.
I don't have much to say, I'm realizing now that I'm actually writing. All I have is a lot of feeling and a lot of empathy for what I imagine your position to be. It's really, really hard.
Perhaps I'll come back later with more. I'm finding it difficult to put my thoughts together at the moment.
Posted by Daisym on April 7, 2010, at 13:20:05
In reply to Re: Why do I need my therapist? » Daisym, posted by onceupon on April 6, 2010, at 0:41:10
You actually have lots to say and said it pretty well. It *is* such a hard struggle and it is also one that is equally hard to explain to someone who has lived it.
I often feel broken in the trust area - how can I not trust this person who has never left, never lied and gives out all the authentic signs of caring? And yet...I think I've come to know that I don't trust myself - everyone else is fine - I'm the one broken. And thus the circle.
Maybe it is one of those developmental things. Like walking. A baby can't walk, even though they have legs and are born with the instinct to walk. They have learn, grow and gain strength. I'm hoping this to be true. Because the message I've always received is that I matter because I can do something for the other. Present tense. If I can't keep doing, or my usefulness is over, I cease to matter.
I'm glad you wrote. It is a hard struggle. And I think this really is one of those things that it helps to know that others struggle with it too.
This is the end of the thread.
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