![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Verloren on March 1, 2010, at 13:49:54
So I've been sort of dealing with this messy situation with my ex T. And I decided I wanted out of therapy altogether, but she and my pdoc have recommended I stay.
Some details:
I was terminated by this T for 2 reasons. One was because she classified me as a binge-drinker. She then decided that I resolved the 2 issues in an acceptable enough manner so that she can start treating me again.
I really was afraid of being terminated by her and had expressed that fear. When she did term me, I was coming out of a really low point and I felt like it was the cruelest thing one person could ever do to another. Never-mind that she is supposed to be therapeutic and my "safe" place.
Now that I am working with her again I keep going back to the binge-drinking substance abuse that she labeled me with. I feel like I know myself pretty well. And I know that I was not binge drinking or getting drunk. My pdoc had the nerve to say that I was getting "blitzed". I don't even know what that means, but I'm guessing it means - very drunk. I was drinking 1 glass of sparkling wine at night to help relax and sleep. Most nights I didn't finish the glass before drifting off.
The 5 sleep meds that I tried never worked for me and I was so very sleep deprived, the wine was the only thing that seemed to "work" at getting me to sleep.
I told my T all this. Over the span of several weeks we discussed my sleep, the wine, etc. She NEVER ONCE mentioned that I might be struggling with substance abuse, or that SHE does NOT treat people with sa. She just let me go on and on about my lifestyle habits. And on a few occasions I would exaggerate how much I drank. She would always look so concerned, that I misinterpreted it as 'she cares for me and wants me to be okay'. She did say a few times that I should be careful not to get dependent on alcohol for sleeping because it could have the reverse effect.
When she listed binge-drinking as one of the reasons, I was torn and distraught and very, very angry. She said people don't exaggerate how much the DO drink; it's the other way around.
And now trying to work through this whole mess, I feel like she doesn't know me. Or she doesn't understand the depths of my mental illness. Even I don't understand all the layers. I started searching for reasons that I would exaggerate my behaviors and I came across Histrionic Personality Disorder. I think I have some signs of that disorder. Specifically the "attention-seeking" and "persistent manipulative behaviour to achieve their own needs".
But then again, if I read through most mental health disorders, I probably have varying signs of them all. How do I know what exactly is wrong with me? And if this T didn't catch it, how would other Ts know? They are supposed to be the experts. Shouldn't she have thought about HPD as a possibility? And that my drinking and talking about it in therapy was a way that I attention-seek?
I think I started to become addicted to therapy and that made me spiral downward more. Instead of getting better, I got worse. Perhaps I wanted more and more of her attention. But then when she terminated me and I realized I would get no more attention, then I started getting better.
Now I have no idea what is wrong with me truly, as I can apparently even hide these behaviors from myself.
Sorry this was so long, I haven't posted in a while and I guess it just all came pouring out.
-Verloren
Posted by emmanuel98 on March 1, 2010, at 20:22:27
In reply to Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG), posted by Verloren on March 1, 2010, at 13:49:54
What do YOU think is wrong with you? Why did you seek therapy? Most people in therapy know why they're in therapy -- they have difficulty with relationships, are unhappy, etc. Their T's don't tell them why they are in therapy. If you feel better without therapy, then stop.
It's true that few people exagerate their drinking. Most people who drink minimize and lie about how much they drink. So that's rather unusual. But it doesn't mean you have a personality disorder. Do YOU think you're histrionic and attention-seeking? Is this a problem in your life that you feel you need help with? Only you can answer these questions.
Posted by ebo4ny on March 1, 2010, at 21:47:27
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG), posted by emmanuel98 on March 1, 2010, at 20:22:27
I certainly can't diagnose you with anything other than having a therapist who's got some negative countertransference. Did she come from a home of alcoholics or something? Even if you were binge drinking, why would it ever be ok to dump you without a warning at least?(and even then I think it would suck)
Posted by Dinah on March 1, 2010, at 23:21:27
In reply to Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG), posted by Verloren on March 1, 2010, at 13:49:54
Is it possible that you felt unheard and that you needed to up the ante?
I hate to admit it, but when my therapist didn't listen to a whisper, there were times when I tried to shout.
Unfortunately, he listened to shouts even worse.
Posted by Verloren on March 2, 2010, at 14:03:17
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG), posted by emmanuel98 on March 1, 2010, at 20:22:27
Those are good questions emmanuel.
I'm afraid I don't know the answers to them anymore.
I originally went to discuss issues from my childhood. But I no longer want to drag up that part of my past. At least not right now.
I do think I am attention-seeking. Not sure if it has anything to do with a personality disorder or not. I guess I rely on the professionals to see if my behaviors fit or not. Not just to be diagnosed with something, but to have insight into myself and to know why I may respond to situations the way that I do. Maybe I have to much expectation from those in the psychology field.
Does that make sense?
-v
Posted by Verloren on March 2, 2010, at 14:12:23
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG), posted by ebo4ny on March 1, 2010, at 21:47:27
She claims she gave me warning but I just didn't absorb it. I highly suspected and still do suspect something in her past regarding addiction or addictive behavior. I think I mentioned in a previous post about her aversion to card-playing, gambling, and cupcakes.
There are definitely some issues with her. She denied them though, of course.
I tell her I think she dislikes me. She says why would she be seeing me now if that were true. I don't know why. Maybe she's in denial about her counter-transference. I used to think she was very open-minded. But now it seems like she's not able to even consider that she has faults.
-V
Posted by Verloren on March 2, 2010, at 15:16:22
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG) » Verloren, posted by Dinah on March 1, 2010, at 23:21:27
Dinah,
That was exactly it!!!
I feel/felt so small. So misunderstood and unheard.
I longed for someone to care. To show me care and to be gentle with my feelings. I literally needed a pat on the head. To feel good and to feel like I was right for existing. I didn't just want to be analyzed. I wanted to be coddled.
I know no one can do that. The days of me being patted and coddled are over. (Even though I never was) Tenderness is reserved for actual children, not the child-like. It isn't fair but it's the way things work.
I mistook therapy for a place I could go to be understood and to let out my true emotions. Really, it's just a place to go so you can deal with your problems and grow up and be a productive adult.
Adults aren't allowed to be coddled. We aren't allowed to need the way children are allowed. I envy children in a way. And it's not up to me. I can't coddle myself anymore than a child can teach itself how to write. No one will ever be the parental figure I needed to develop into an adult properly. So how do you put together a puzzle that missing it's borders and the pieces in the middle? Any way you look at it, it is still an incomplete puzzle.
I'm not yet ready or able to grow up. Not yet able to be a perfectly functionable adult. There is a child in me who still needs to be heard. Who has resigned itself to whispering for right now. But who may eventually scream again.
Sorry, a bit of a ramble there. And I probably went far away from the point you were making.
-V
Posted by antigua3 on March 2, 2010, at 18:27:14
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG) » Dinah, posted by Verloren on March 2, 2010, at 15:16:22
A good therapist can help with all those issues, but they are hard to find. At least that's what I think. I don't think they have the time or for some,the inclination,to take on the task fully. Modeling that parental behavior for you, by showing compassion and caring for you, and as you were as a child, and to allow you to grieve for what you missed, are just a few of the technqiues that can be used to help you get over these grueling feelings.
You know what? I believe you can learn to coddle yourself, to give yourself what you need.But you need to learn to feel better about yourself first,that you have value in the feelings you have today.
I'm playing amateur T on the board today. Sorry. I just see so many things gone wrong and I wonder what on earth has happened to the therapeutic profession. CBT/managed care/low reimbursements/drive to see more and more patients/and yes, I believe, greed drives some of their behaviors and makes them less able to help us as individuals and not as an appt at 4 pm on tuesday.
OK, I'll stop now.
But don't give up. I swear it's worth it. You won't believe how much you've changed when you work through your childhood issues, which, perhaps you are hiding from.
take care,
antigua
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2010, at 0:02:28
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG) » Dinah, posted by Verloren on March 2, 2010, at 15:16:22
No, not far afield.
I always feel sort of embarrassed when I say it aloud. But sadly, it is sort of true.
A couple of months ago, I was under a whole lot of stress, not sleeping well, and overcome with anxiety. I was having thoughts of hurting myself, but they were just that - intrusive thoughts. I didn't think them worth mentioning to my therapist because I was dealing with him. One day I said it in passing and he said something like that my saying I was having those thoughts helped him understand how bad I was feeling.
I got angry with him. I told him that was absolutely the worst thing to say to me. That I needed to be able to feel that I could say to him that I felt really really bad. That I needed to feel that he would take that as seriously as if I had said I wanted to hurt myself. Because otherwise I'd feel like I needed to feel and act self destructive to have him really understand how bad I was feeling.
He said that of course he understood that. And I think we worked out a code word that I've now forgotten. But it kind of illustrates the kind of scenario that leads to escalation. Fortunately I feel comfortable enough with him now to have that kind of conversation, but how many people have that level of comfort with their therapists?
I had a realization once a long while back that I shared with my therapist, and it made a big difference in therapy. It came in the form of a line from a children's book that I had read often as a child that came to my mind and just wouldn't get out. "I can bite and kick and kill. I will do it yes I will." In the story, it turned out that the big monster was just just a lamb that was trying to get help for the can stuck on its leg. Not really a monster at all. That was a pivotal point in therapy. It helped him understand and it helped me understand. Sometimes he still even softly repeats the line, or at least the best version he can remember of it. Not to laugh at me, but to remind me that sometimes when I'm feeling vulnerable and unheard, I feel the need to shout.
I know I'm lucky to have a therapist who is willing to talk this all out with me without sticking labels on me. If he had kept resisting and putting up boundaries, I would have felt the need to shout louder and louder. Instead, we've found other ways to communicate.
I don't know if this therapist is capable of doing that or not. But some therapists are.
Posted by Dinah on March 3, 2010, at 0:23:52
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG) » Verloren, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2010, at 0:02:28
Hmmm... The verse was about "it" biting and kicking and killing, not "I". It wouldn't have worked at all with "I" in it since a harmless little lamb wouldn't have said those things.
Except of course in my case the harmless little lamb would. :) So the freudian slip is quite reasonable.
Posted by rnny on March 3, 2010, at 23:40:07
In reply to Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG), posted by Verloren on March 1, 2010, at 13:49:54
Just the mere fact she makes you feel insecure because she discharged you and then took you back as a client is enough reason to not see her. Just because "she" thinks you should see her, doesn't mean you have to or that you even need to. She is your employee. You hire a therapist to help you.
Posted by floatingbridge on March 3, 2010, at 23:52:18
In reply to Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG), posted by Verloren on March 1, 2010, at 13:49:54
Verlorn,
I wonder what could be wrong about the desire for attention (aka 'attention seeking'). Seems like a hard-wired drive. Every one I know wants attention--some have better ways of getting it.
Can you straight out ask your pdoc and therapist what their diagnosis is? That doesn't mean that they'll be correct. Your sense that childhood issues brought you to therapy could be really valid.
Listen to your gut when you can.I can diagnosis myself with many 'disorders'. HPD was one. Truly, I feel behavior exists on a spectrum.
So what is it called when a person wad starved for attention, caring, validation as a child, then needs to reparent herself as an adult. Well, I feel so ashamed and broken sometimes because I truly need so much. My therapist knows this, and I'm lucky. He doesn't turn my need into a disease. There's no shame he reminds me (I need to be constantly reminded!).
Posted by Verloren on March 8, 2010, at 9:00:06
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG) » Verloren, posted by antigua3 on March 2, 2010, at 18:27:14
Thanks Antigua
Feeling better about myself is something I struggle with. Some days are better though.
I'm not sure that therapists can be expected to show compassion. At least I think there are delicate ways that has to be maneuvered so those ever so precious boundaries are not blurred.
And I'm not entirely certain a person can learn compassion even if they chose to go into a helping profession.
Not sure how I feel about giving up right now, but I'm still going and we'll see how long that lasts.
-V
Posted by Verloren on March 8, 2010, at 9:31:42
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG) » Verloren, posted by Dinah on March 3, 2010, at 0:02:28
>>That I needed to be able to feel that I could say to him that I felt really really bad. That I needed to feel that he would take that as seriously as if I had said I wanted to hurt myself. Because otherwise I'd feel like I needed to feel and act self destructive to have him really understand how bad I was feeling.
>Wow Dinah,
yeah I totally understand. I think it's something from my childhood of never being able to say, "I feel bad" that makes me feel weird saying it now. Maybe weird is not the right word.
I also wonder if I should ever tell her again how bad I could be. Whenever she speaks of before, she keeps saying how bad off I was. I don't like hearing that. I don't know why but it feels like it was my fault for spiraling downward like that and that she's blaming me. Of course, she'd say that's not true. Still there's a little tug within me each time she references how bad off I was.
I think I actually remember that story. It sounds very familiar but I can't remember where it's from or what it was called. Darn!
-v
Posted by Verloren on March 8, 2010, at 9:57:27
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG), posted by rnny on March 3, 2010, at 23:40:07
Yeah, this has been very emotionally terrifying and stressful.
Even though she makes me insecure, I think I can work through this. But I will be careful not to risk any more of myself than necessary until this seems stable. My pdoc says to "tiptoe in" and to move cautiously. I plan to do that.
I feel owed. I feel she should make it up to me. I deserve that. I know that does not realistically happen in life's relationships. but it's what I want. I think if it goes well and we do work through it, then I will be in a better position to deal with other important relationships that go wrong. I usually just run away from bad things in relationships. I'd like to not feel like that's the only thing I can do - run.
I like to think I'm a bit more objective about therapy this time around. And maybe that will help me go into this without the colored glasses on.
But I don't agree that she's just hired help. She's not like a maid I just hire to clean my house. She's more than that. I know you understand the bonds and intensity of emotion one feels for their T from your posts about your retired T.
I can't just disregard her as someone I pay to help me. Maybe I should. Maybe that's the key to good a therapeutic relationship? Callousness?I hoping she thinks I "need" to see her because there will be a benefit from it and from continuing the relationship.
Very scary but I guess I should stay alert, hopeful, cautious, and honest to myself about my feelings.
-v
Posted by Dinah on March 8, 2010, at 9:57:54
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG) » Dinah, posted by Verloren on March 8, 2010, at 9:31:42
One of my favorites. :)
Posted by Verloren on March 8, 2010, at 13:09:44
In reply to what's right with you » Verloren, posted by floatingbridge on March 3, 2010, at 23:52:18
>>I wonder what could be wrong about the desire for attention (aka 'attention seeking'). Seems like a hard-wired drive. Every one I know wants attention--some have better ways of getting it.
>Hi floatingbridge
I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong about "wanting attention". But lying to get it is a different story. Embellishing and elaborate story-telling are different stories. Then it becomes a problem and while that person may get attention, most people will soon tire of the embellishments after a while.
So far they haven't shared any straight diagnosis. They've said depression and some borderline tendencies. But no, I don't know what all my diagnoses are, if there are more than that. But then again, I suspect THEY don't know what all my diagnoses are.
I have wondered at times, why there are so many disorders for so many different behaviors. It seems to me that no one can possibly be "normal" with so many abnormal behaviors. Or maybe we are all normal and the truly abnormal ones are those who seem to have no issues.
I also need so much. And it's strange because I don't even know everything that I need. I have an analogy: If you've never been given water, how do you know what to do for thirst?
That's how I feel at times. I don't completely know what I missed out on as a child and how big of an impact it may be for my current life. I just know I'm thirsty; I don't know that I should drink something. So can I really reparent myself if I don't know what parenting should represent? Sure there are movies, tv, and stories from others. But is it enough?I'd like my therapist to understand that. And to teach me what water is.
-v
Posted by floatingbridge on March 8, 2010, at 13:27:16
In reply to Re: what's right with you » floatingbridge, posted by Verloren on March 8, 2010, at 13:09:44
Verloren,
The thirst metaphor rings so true for me. Years ago I dreamt that I was absolutely parched--the entire kitchen scene was in a bleached yellow--the thirst was unbearable, and the sink was filled with soapy water. I tried to talk with my mother, how thirsty I was. Instead, she played the violin, smiling unpleasantly, or at least obliviuosly (and no, she never played violin).
Personally, I believe, and have slowly (and I mean f-n' slowly), come to realize what that thirst is for. Like 'attention', that metaphorical thirst is built in. Recovering instincts. Of course, that is my own belief in the basic needs of human beings....
What you want your therapist to understand and help teach you--I hope she or if need be, someone else (and soon) will be your advocate. You absolutely deserve it.
Tough questions to ask one's self--.
Thank you for the clarification about behaviors. I'm wondering, though, that if one knows the behavior, placing it in the realm of being changeable, is that the same? Aren't the 'personality disorders' largely unconscious, subconscious (I don't know the proper word)? Maybe you 'were' and now you're 'not'?
fb
> >>I wonder what could be wrong about the desire for attention (aka 'attention seeking'). Seems like a hard-wired drive. Every one I know wants attention--some have better ways of getting it.
> >
>
> Hi floatingbridge
>
> I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong about "wanting attention". But lying to get it is a different story. Embellishing and elaborate story-telling are different stories. Then it becomes a problem and while that person may get attention, most people will soon tire of the embellishments after a while.
>
> So far they haven't shared any straight diagnosis. They've said depression and some borderline tendencies. But no, I don't know what all my diagnoses are, if there are more than that. But then again, I suspect THEY don't know what all my diagnoses are.
>
> I have wondered at times, why there are so many disorders for so many different behaviors. It seems to me that no one can possibly be "normal" with so many abnormal behaviors. Or maybe we are all normal and the truly abnormal ones are those who seem to have no issues.
>
> I also need so much. And it's strange because I don't even know everything that I need. I have an analogy: If you've never been given water, how do you know what to do for thirst?
> That's how I feel at times. I don't completely know what I missed out on as a child and how big of an impact it may be for my current life. I just know I'm thirsty; I don't know that I should drink something. So can I really reparent myself if I don't know what parenting should represent? Sure there are movies, tv, and stories from others. But is it enough?
>
> I'd like my therapist to understand that. And to teach me what water is.
>
> -v
Posted by Verloren on March 9, 2010, at 11:15:07
In reply to Re: Just what Exactly IS wrong with me? (LONG), posted by Dinah on March 8, 2010, at 9:57:54
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.