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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 22:23:38
Hi Babblers,
Had my session earlier today with, as usual, the therapy hangover beginning a few hours afterward. This time, though, the discomfort feels clear. I feel seduced, which is par for the course with my T and not particularly problematic. But what is more troubling is this: *I feel like it is my fault*.
I was careful, during this session, not to behave in a way that might be construed as seductive. I have been trying to be very careful about this lately in general. I am trying to figure out where these feelings are originating. Is it me, him? Both? Why the guilt?
Could it possibly be that I feel guilty for NOT being seductive? Is he letting me know, somehow, that I'm letting *him* down?
To be fair, my T's behavior has not been overtly seductive either, apart from glances that last a shade too long. These just-a-little-too-long glances represent a change from about a month ago, when we had a series of sessions that included long periods of staring into each other's eyes. These latest briefer glances seem like check-ins to me. "Are you still interested?" is the question he seems to be asking. Like he's refueling, the way kids do when they are exploring away from Mom for the first time. (Maternal erotic countertransference, anyone?)
FWIW, he is 30 years my senior; we're both married with kids at home.
If I've been good, and I have, why do I feel so guilty? How do I even broach the topic with him?
Yours,
BSD
Posted by wittgensteinz on March 10, 2009, at 3:06:20
In reply to I Feel So Weird, posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 22:23:38
BSD,
I don't know if this is on target or not but these questions come to mind when reading this...
Have you been able to say what you wrote here in session to your T? Has the seduction been talked about openly? Seduction is something secretive - a secret game, that takes place as a subtext, while other things continue as normal. It takes two people - even if you aren't being seductive back, could it be that you feel guilty for being 'compliant' or for not saying "hey, what are you doing with your eyes, right now?". Could it be that you enjoy it/like it. There's nothing wrong with any of that - I think most people would like it if another person, someone who means a lot, would find them attractive. That's a natural response. Speaking about it is probably the best way to open things up and to disarm the 'tension'.
It always worries me a bit when people write "it's OK we're both married... kids..." because it shouldn't matter if you were both single, same age... perfect fit in real life. The question of breaking boundaries, as far as the therapist is concerned, should never come into question. Of course we all have our fantasies but he should do what he needs to to keep the therapeutic situation a safe and... therapeutic... one. I hope he can do this for you.
It's sad that you are feeling guilty about this. You said in the other thread that you felt guilty for your feelings about angry woman. Often these instinctive feelings are things we have absolutely no control over - they are deep-rooted in us from earlier traumas and needs. I don't think you've done anything wrong.
Witti
Posted by SLS on March 10, 2009, at 7:45:01
In reply to I Feel So Weird, posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 22:23:38
Is it hard for you to focus your full attention on the therapeutic work you are there for?
One starting point for you might be to be clear to yourself as to what you want and don't want. Do you want to have an intimate relationship with your therapist? Do you want not to have an intimate relationship outside of marriage? What are the obstacles to getting what you want or don't want?
For me, I developed an attraction for my therapist very quickly. I had a few fantasies, but actually made it my business not to let my own wants and desires grow. I allowed my feelings to extinguish themselves over time. Self-discipline? Yes. Although I am lonely and starved for an intimate relationship, I had no intention of ruining my therapeutic relationship. I was clear to myself about this. At first, I just filed away somewhere in my head the desires and romantic notions, and kept them out of MY sight during sessions. After sessions, I worked out on my own that I did not want something to happen, and that I would not let it happen. So, I refused to allow myself to indulge in fantasy. I also felt that if I continued to want an intimate relationship, that this need could eventually be filled by someone else. Why wreck the very thing that might allow me to have more and better relationships with others?
Two things made it a no-brainer to choose to look for intimacy somewhere other than the therapeutic session. I try not to allow myself to cultivate strong desires for things I cannot have.
1. My therapist is married.
2. There is an APA mandated two year moratorium on therapists having sex with former clients.Can you take "no" for an answer when it is you who is saying "no"?
I asked myself, "Should I have an affair with my psychotherapist?" After but a moment of consideration, I gave myself the answer "No." I then made the commitment to not allow it to happen. It has not always been easy, especially when I began to get the feeling that my therapist was attracted to me. Maybe this is something that often happens in therapy - the BELIEF that the therapist might have feelings or desires or fantasies about me. Maybe it is a need for my ego to have met. I really don't know. She probably has no feelings at all towards me. Why should I sometimes suspect otherwise? I don't know. However, if she were to disclose to me her having feelings for me, I guess I would ask what is to be done within the therapeutic milieu when this happens. If I were propositioned, I would still say "No."
Ok, so what does happen if it is the therapist who develops a desire for the client and verbalizes it?
- Scott
Posted by antigua3 on March 10, 2009, at 8:14:03
In reply to I Feel So Weird, posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 22:23:38
I'm sorry you're feeling this way. Something caught my attention. Are you viewing his holding your gaze as seductive? And, as others have said, have you talked about this?
My pdoc has worked hard to hold my gaze, and for me, it's in no way seductive. It's a therapeutic technqiue to foster the trust that I need. It shows he's paying attention mostly, and while it makes me hugely uncomfortable at times, I understand what he's doing.
But your situation may be much different. There may be other signs that indicate this is seductive. But I'd try to run this by him and see what he says.
Has holding your gaze been a seductive thing in your past? Is that one way you've interpreted interest? If so, again, try to talk about it. Our past experiences, as I'm sure you well know, color our perceptions now, and it's really hard, for me anyway, to distinguish between what is "real" and what is going on therapeutically.
Pls don't think I'm disagreeing w/you. It's just something that's important to you, especially if you're getting that "it's my fault" feeling.
antigua
Posted by lucie lu on March 10, 2009, at 8:16:55
In reply to Re: I Feel So Weird » backseatdriver, posted by SLS on March 10, 2009, at 7:45:01
Especially in long-term psychodynamic therapy, there is often a "therapeutic honeymoon" phase. This is well-documented in the literature, and common knowledge among Ts although I would guess that many are loath to discuss it with clients. This phase doesn't need to occur in the course of therapy but often does, typically in the earlier stages of therapy (for me it was in the second year, but then I am slow ;) By all accounts, Ts feel it too. The honeymoon stage is marked by a sense of mutual attraction and appreciation, an (often temporary or initial) improvement in the client's sense of well-being and perhaps functioning. It is usually viewed as a positive development which helps to establish and foster positive feelings, a growing attachment bond, and a secure therapy relationship. This is particularly helpful for therapies that will have to withstand the tests of time and rocky weather.Psychodynamic or analytic Ts may encourage this interactive stage because of its perceived long-term benefits to the therapy. I can imagine that this could be a point where unstable or unscrupulous Ts might take advantage of vulnerable clients. But ethical Ts, which I think includes most, will use this period skillfully and compassionately for the client's benefit. If they privately feel some reciprocity or gratification, they will not burden the client with it. Of course they are human and even the most secure T will probably enjoy a break of sunny, balmy weather, especially since they know there are stormy seas ahead. A good T can accept and hold the honeymoon feelings in the room because they know it is a stage and is a temporary development, and hopefully have all their own issues under control.
I may be all wet, Scott, but what you describe actually fits what might be experienced during this period of therapy. Of course it may not be, you are the best judge. But you might want to openly discuss it with your T. She can then help you sort out any feelings or thoughts that might be getting in the way of your therapy. It seems to me that, at least for some courses of therapy, supressing feelings or "making them go away" might be counterproductive.
Just my 2 cents.
Lucie
Posted by SLS on March 10, 2009, at 8:31:42
In reply to Re: I Feel So Weird » SLS, posted by lucie lu on March 10, 2009, at 8:16:55
Lucie Lu,
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my post. It provided me with some important education.
> I may be all wet, Scott, but what you describe actually fits what might be experienced during this period of therapy.
It has been one hell of a long honeymoon, then - two years. I guess I am enjoying it too much to want to jeapordize it.
> But you might want to openly discuss it with your T.
I would be scared to death to bring this up. I'm not sure what I am scared of most. Maybe doing so would mean the loss of this person as my therapist. I am not afraid of rejection as a lover. I am afraid of rejection as a client.
> She can then help you sort out any feelings or thoughts that might be getting in the way of your therapy.
This is the thing, though. I don't feel like it is getting in the way at this point. Perhaps it is, but I don't recognize it.
> It seems to me that, at least for some courses of therapy, supressing feelings or "making them go away" might be counterproductive.
Okay. I will try to keep an open mind here, but it is difficult for me. Your suggestions have echoed what others have said to me.
> Just my 2 cents.
2 cents is harder to come by these days. Thanks.
- Scott
Posted by sassyfrancesca on March 10, 2009, at 8:58:31
In reply to I Feel So Weird, posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 22:23:38
I understand....my t and I are close to the same age, and are alike in over 30 different ways......he started to be seductive, and of course I (alone after 31 years of an abusive marriage, and a church who voted me out of membership) was "ripe" for the picking.
I've never had a man who didn't fail me....abuse and abandoment; so my t was my "knight"
He is also a pastor, trains counselors, just got is Ph.D. and is married.
He goes back and forth between seductive behavior and guilt, which transforms into him becoming cold. I cannot deal with that.
Some day i will have to let him know how much he has hurt me. The terrible thing is that I will continue to suffer; who knows how long. He can go back to his cozy little life.
The only way to know what is going on with your t, is to talk about it (unfortunately)...scary, but necessary in order to understand.
His behavior is not YOUR fault. If you FEEl seduced, then more than likely he is doing something to make you feel that way.
How do you broach the topic?
How about: I've been feeling like something is going on between us that perhaps is unspoken? Go from there. If he is a good t, he will want to talk about it.
hugs, Sassy
Posted by sassyfrancesca on March 10, 2009, at 9:05:41
In reply to Re: I Feel So Weird » lucie lu, posted by SLS on March 10, 2009, at 8:31:42
for the momentary hijack here.
Scott, I can tell you what happens when a t discloses his/her struggle with feelings/love, etc......
It is damaging. I've done a "ton" of research, and what I read is that it is rarely a good idea for a t to self=disclose; they need to do their work invisibly and quietly, and get supervision, counseling if necessary.
My t has done 4 years of this stuff; playing, teasing, flirting......of course I enjoy that (because I love it), but it is a mind-game....I feel...come here, go away....etc.
Very painful, because if you know that stuff, where can it go? Nowhere...unless you wait 2 years and perhaps decide to have a personal relationship.
Sassy
Posted by lucie lu on March 10, 2009, at 9:12:46
In reply to I Feel So Weird, posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 22:23:38
Hi BSD,
I am sorry too that you are feeling so guilty and uncomfortable right now. Can you say more about your therapy, how long you have been seeing him and how you see the relationship progressing? Is it possible that you also could be experiencing some "therapeutic honeymoon" dynamics?
Seduction is such a powerful, but ambiguous human behavior. Not all seduction is romantic or sexual. We "seduce" others to make them like or think highly of us and want to be involved with us, to establish some presence for ourselves and perhaps exert some level of influence. We try to put our best feet forward, to make ourselves seem like attractive, worthwhile people with things to offer. We do this in business, academics, medicine, friendships, and many other types of human relationships.
As any successful salesperson (or leader) knows, there are "rules" to seduction. These include active listening, respectful attention, warmth, and body language. Eye contact is very important. It has long been known that enlarged pupils subliminally signal attraction, which is why in olden days, women used to put belladonna in their eyes (belladonna makes pupils larger). Many physical (e.g. neurobiological) and behavioral components of seduction have been targeted in research studies.
Because they are required to build strong, positive personal relationships with their clients, I think many or most Ts are quite good at this sort of seduction. Since they are trained in the art of human relationships, they should know the tricks of the trade, so to speak. They should also be able to control it for the client's good and the preservation of safe boundaries in the therapy.
Not all Ts are equally adept though, and even those that do not mean for seduction to take an inappropriate turn may be relatively unskilled or clumsy. They may frighten or confuse the client, especially those who feel very vulnerable and may feel uncomfortable or unsafe with their own feelings. IMO the good type of "therapeutic seduction" should be like adding spice to the stew, not overpower it or make it inedible.
Of course it may be hard to distinguish if your T really is being inappropriate. But from what you've said, your therapy has been well-boundaried so far and there have been no obvious incursions. You may be right on target with your interpretation of mother and baby, the "are you still there?" mutual interaction.
Do you think you could raise the subject of nonverbal signals with your T and say they are confusing/worrying you? You should not feel guilty because however you are responding or what you are projecting, this is exactly what you are *supposed* to be doing in therapy. If he is not responding to you appropriately or helpfully, then he is not doing his job and this needs to be addressed. But it seems equally likely that there might be mixed-up or confused messages between you leading to misunderstanding. The only way to know that is by talking about it together openly and candidly.
This is really hard stuff, BSD, and it is always easier to advise than to take one's own advice (lol). But I hate to see you feeling so guilty and uncomfortable with your T and your therapy.
Good luck,
Lucie
Posted by Phillipa on March 10, 2009, at 11:03:20
In reply to Re: I Feel So Weird » backseatdriver, posted by lucie lu on March 10, 2009, at 9:12:46
I just never experienced any of this with any of the T's seen over the years wonder why? Phillipa ps always feared them.
Posted by seldomseen on March 10, 2009, at 14:28:14
In reply to I Feel So Weird, posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 22:23:38
I think therapy is a very intimate situation, especially for the client. All kinds of feelings can get stirred up, and naturally some of them may be erotic in nature. These feelings are normal in all other intimate human relationships, why should the therapeutic relationship be any different?
In fact, I would argue that these feelings in the therapeutic relationship are beneficial - especially when discussed, because they may give the therapist clues as to how we form relationships and trust and what issues we have along the way. Those feelings can exist in that room, be discussed and no one has to be hurt by them.
I know it's harder said than done, but there is no reason to feel guilt over feelings. The therapeutic space is designed to "hold" them for discussion. There are bounds of behaviour in good therapy that protect both the client and the therapist.
I think other than just verbally abusing the therapist, ideally the client should be able to express anything that he/she feels about the therapist without fear of hurting/damaging the relationship. Likewise the client should feel absolutely positively sure that the therapist will never react in a sexual manner to anything the client may express. That security, though, takes time and testing to develop I think.
Of course, these thoughts are coming from someone in long term therapy who has, for lack of a better phrase "been there, done that" and who keenly realizes that exploring those feelings can be very painful. When these feelings do exist in the room and are left unreciprocated (or worse, reciprocated but frustrated) then there is a lot of pain associated with it. It's a lot to work through.
However, for me the payoff was incredible and the safety I feel with my T has been the springboard for so many other meaningful relationships in my life.
Seldom.
Posted by backseatdriver on March 10, 2009, at 15:44:58
In reply to I Feel So Weird, posted by backseatdriver on March 9, 2009, at 22:23:38
I knew I could count on the folks in this forum. Thank you all so much! Especially for the reassurance about the guilt I am feeling. There seems to be agreement that it's okay, that it's not (or not only) me, and that bringing it up in session might be really good.
A few things have popped out at me:
-- Yes, I do enjoy this attention. And yeah, it is normal and probably inevitable given the situation.
-- I am struck by the idea of a "honeymoon" phase in therapy. I like this idea very much, and also I like the idea that he's probably seen it before, and that it's okay to enjoy it. We've had a little stormy weather already. Maybe this is just our dynamic, a little rain, a little shine.
-- I was reading Hans Leowald's "The Waning of the Oedipus Complex" today and one of his points is that guilt is a normal part of development. In particular it is a normal part of the developmental stage that my mother completely hijacked. The trick, apparently, is to stay in touch with the luscious primitive preoedipal wonderfulness while not actually sleeping with my mother-therapist.
Who may actually want this but, as many of you pointed out, he should hold the line. I believe I need to let go and trust him on this. Which ought to be an interesting exercise. Guess we'll see how it goes (!). I tend to be more parentified and responsible than I need to be. Which gets back to the guilt stuff.
I adore you all. So much gets clarified for me here.
BSD
This is the end of the thread.
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