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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by lucie lu on October 15, 2008, at 13:35:47
I have found myself starting replies to a number of threads but they start getting complicated and theres a lot of over-lap. But soooooo many posts about what Babblers are going through strike such a chord of recognition within me, with me feeling Ive felt that or yes, Ive been there. Its been a long journey, not over yet. So I decided to write about the therapeutic relationship and the stages its gone through over the past six years. Since I dont think it is instructive to talk about my specific history or issues, Ive only tried to reflect on what seem like common themes that other Babblers might relate to. I apologize in advance for its length and if it seems self-absorbed. So bail now, while you have the chance :-)
My relationship with my T has gone through stages, and it was a slow progression. The first couple of years, when we met once weekly, he was a nice man, a helping professional who I eventually learned could be counted on to return my calls if I was having acute fits of anxiety or depression. We had a rupture after about a year (provoked by undisclosed separation anxiety, in retrospect) and I stopped seeing him for several months. I told him Id be back when my insurance kicked in again, although he didnt really expect that. We agreed later than it seemed like a 50-50 chance for both of us, but obviously I did return to therapy. Whereas the first year was more about particular immediate events and stresses, year 2 was getting down to the nitty-gritty. I got really stuck in year 2, couldnt get into a groove, couldnt find anything to talk about. I was frustrated and he fell asleep on me twice. Around year three, the therapy picked up, moved from feeling relatively stuck into a more intensive phase, when I started going twice a week. The relationship began to deepen. This deepening unleashed an intense set of transference interactions.
The first stage of the intense phase of year 3 was, I think, something similar to what turtle and others are talking about. I flopped around like a fish on a line. First I was terrified of getting too close: I pictured myself as a planet trapped into a shaky orbit around the sun, unable to break loose but terrified that I would be pulled into its gravitational field. During this period I was terrified that I would fall into the sun (my therapy shorthand for this fear). This alternated with abandonment fears. I mistrusted him deeply, fearing being conned into caring for him when he only of me as a time-slot. My view of him vacillated wildly: he was my rescuer and someone who really cared about me; he was really an ax-murderer outside of the office and didn't really care about me at all. (Despite how it sounds I was not really clinically paranoid, although when does deep mistrust become paranoia?) He and I both struggled throughout these years. At some point, maybe midway through year 3, a new phase appeared when I felt I "fell in love" with him. What this really meant was that I finally allowed myself to explore intimacy with him. The trust issues continued to hum throughout, sometimes in the foreground and other times in the background. I remember, and I believe he does too, this period as intensely painful and stressful for both of us. We explored my past together and he tried to reach me and I tried to trust him. I cried buckets. There were innumerable crises, sometimes suicidal feelings and impulses, tearful, anxious or angry phone calls, emotionally explosive sessions. After one anguished, hour-long phone call that wore us both out, he urged me to see my pdoc about adding a mood stabilizer to my long-term A/D. Someday I will ask him, but I think he was afraid he could no longer hold me and wasn't sure whether his strength would give out first or my intense insanity would topple us both. The mood stabilizers did help by damping down the terrible dysphoria and lessened the magnitude of my emotional responses.
It was during this intense period (years 3-5) that I would say I was obsessed with him and my therapy. I would endlessly read psych books and spend hours at a time googling all sorts of psych subjects. Usually my obsessive searching was along two themes: (1) trying to self-diagnose so I could have some idea of what was going on inside me; and (2) counter-transference so I could have some idea of what was going on inside him. Both of those needs to know were truly driven by my insecurities and fears. On one hand, I knew the behavior was crazy but I couldn't control it. I felt addicted (justifiably so). I also journaled a lot. Despite, or perhaps because of, the intensely painful nature of this period, there was a strong, if insecure, attachment being forged based on my sense of him as my nurturing rescuer. I was going to reply to Turtle's thread about T imagery and didn't get a chance to, but he was my rescuer from all sorts of terrors, from falling into the abyss to drowning in shark-infested waters. I think that rescue element was in the counter-transference as well, so that added to the intensity of the relationship. It may have made things a bit harder for him to negotiate at times but overall it seemed to work between us. During this time, I hardly stopped thinking about him, in answer to your question Jay. I too would think about him at bedtime so the warm feelings would help me fall asleep. I hear echoes of this period in many of the posts on Babble, and I can really empathize. I wish I had known about Babble at that time, I think it would have helped more than just trawling amazon.com and other websites, although I did find a lot of helpful material.
The intense, stormy period started receding about year 5, by which time we had achieved a close relationship with as much trust as I was capable of mustering. I was still going regularly 2x/week, with additional sessions scheduled at times when I was especially needy. Despite the temptation (I still wanted to see him as much as possible), it was pretty clear that three times a week would have re-ignited the transference too much. I was still somewhat ambivalent about the attachment. This ambivalence manifested itself in wanting to see him 3x a week, to reduce the separation anxiety, or 1x (or none) to minimize and avoid the relationship. This is when the "Friday syndrome" arose, when I would experience a tremendous amount of anxiety about the gap between sessions, sometimes so much so that I came to dread Friday sessions even before I'd get to the office. As my posts show, I have not really worked through this yet, and insecurities about this still rise somewhat regularly.
Despite all this emotional and interpersonal intensity, I was actually learning important things during years 3-5, more intrapsychic than interpersonal. I finally learned some affect regulation (which I had never learned, didnt even know what it was) and began to develop a center of stability (I used to describe myself as a donut, because I had always lacked such a center). An important skill for me was learning to partition the crazy parts of myself and my history within my psyche: to coexist with them but be able to keep a healthy distance. These crazy places were like rooms, where my T and I had explored together, but where I could leave and close the door behind me. I am still not very good at self-comfort, but those lessons were started then too. Also I continued to explore and consolidate my half of the therapeutic relationship, while my T continued to hold up his, and I continue to learn and mature.
Year six has had a distinctly different feel to it. Crises are rare and when they occur, are much more subtle. The interpersonal emphasis has shifted from its narrow focus on the therapeutic relationship (I still feel a strong attachment, it just feels more secure now) to family, friends, and social interactions in general. I re-established ties to my mother and siblings (although I had not cut them out altogether, I was very uncomfortable and prone to avoidance). That was really important because I was afraid my mother would die (she is in good health but 86) before I could get my act together and reconcile with her and be close again. And finally, rebuild my relationship with my DH and my marriage. My DH suffered tremendously during the course of my therapy as I alluded in an earlier thread. We have been married over 20 years so there is a lot of history to work through. Were still together but it has been very tenuous at times. Reconciliation in personal relationships has been a major goal in this most recent period. However, my relationship with my T is still evolving. There are still insecurities and regressions, occasional ruptures, and sometimes I miss the intensity of earlier times, but by and large we are in a pretty stable place. As per some of my posts, there are still bumpy patches and uncertainties in the therapeutic relationship even now, and I still think of him a lot (sometimes uncomfortably so), but much, much less then before. I find myself wanting to ask him, how many years after therapy will have to pass before we could be friends outside? But I dont know if that would be possible, not sure how that would work. But I feel we are becoming friends now. Nonetheless, I reserve the right to regress to earlier stages sometimes and he typically accommodates that regression as it usually seems to serve some purpose. In the service of the ego, as he would say.
Well, enough of this and Im sorry it is soooooooooo loooooooong! Just hope something in here might be helpful to someone.
Lucie
Posted by FindingMyDesire on October 15, 2008, at 16:51:58
In reply to For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by lucie lu on October 15, 2008, at 13:35:47
Wow, Lucie Lu,
Thank you so much for sharing your experience here! It is very helpful - at least in the intellectual moment right now. I read this before lunch and then noticed that I felt much less shame while I was thinking about HER for that hour. I also think the JayMac "How often do you...?" thread has helped - but I need more of that conversation! Way more than I could even have here.Your line "I flopped around like a fish on a line" perfectly describes where I am right now. My head is so full of this stuff right now I don't know how I function at all really. And my body - either I am hurting; my palms, my chest, my throat out of some kind of pain, or I have a burning shame sensation in my belly, or I'm simply overwhelmed with sexual desire. It feels weird to have normal conversations with people in the hallway at work. Can't they tell I'm only half listening? What if I say her name out loud by accident?
Anyway, thanks Lucie. Your sharing helps.
FMD
Posted by JayMac on October 15, 2008, at 17:01:02
In reply to For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by lucie lu on October 15, 2008, at 13:35:47
Wow. Thank you for all of that. What a journey!!! What a continuous adventure as well.
Your post made me cry because it reminds me that there is hope. Although my time with my T is in its early stages, I have hope in her ability and my ability to make therapy work for me. I'm slowly learning how to attach to her, identify with her, and let her help me in the way she believes is best. It's comforting for me to know that other people have successful relationships with their T and that it has helped them become successful with other people as well.
Therapy brings adventure to all of us: as we are not born with the inclination that we must seek therapy, we are born with the inclination to form relationships.
Our therapists allow us to first know, and then to experience the truths of our past, present, and future.
We may not be the "patient" in his/her office forever, but forever may we be patient with ourselves. Forever may we be striving to know ourselves and experience ourselves as relational beings. Forever my we be seeking the truth.
I don't mean to be too deep here. I feel touched and inclined to share what little I know.
Peace to You!
Hugs and Love,
JayMac
Posted by Suedehead on October 15, 2008, at 18:23:21
In reply to For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by lucie lu on October 15, 2008, at 13:35:47
Thank for for posting this. I've only been seeing my T since April, so we're in the beginning stages of our relationship, for sure. I think that I skipped straight to the 'intense' phase, as that's typically how I operate in relationships, but it's nice to think of a time in the future when we'll have settled down a little--when I will have really learned to trust him and to be more secure in my attachment. What you said about feeling like you and your T are becoming friends now really moved me. I hope that I experience that with mine someday.
Posted by turtle on October 15, 2008, at 20:49:22
In reply to For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by lucie lu on October 15, 2008, at 13:35:47
Lucie!!!
No wonder you had to laugh at me for being an impudent young upstart who in my last post gave your own advice back to you and dared you to slip back into being 'younger in therapy!' ;-)
I can't help laughing out loud at myself right now. I was riveted and pulled in a million directions as I followed along with every step of your journey. Now I have this image of myself as a 1 year old who is just learning how to self feed. (Gimme cookie! Mine!!!! mmMmMmm, Cookie!) That's as far as I've gotten in the therapy relationship. My baby brain suspected that there was more, but I was only focused on COOKIE. In the space of one long post I suddenly became clearly aware that compared to my COOKIE, you've grown the food yourself, prepared a gourmet meal, planned the dinner party, matched the wine, lead the social event, and cleaned it all up yourself. Not only did you work extremely hard doing all of that, it was all a great success! Sometimes when I read your posts all of the concepts flow so naturally through you that you make it look effortless. And then I dare to say to you (with cookie all over my face) "mmm, cookie good" and try to hand you some. Too funny!
I love your description of falling into the Sun. I often think of attachment in terms of gravity. These feelings are definitely Planet worthy. You describe things so very vividly and clearly.
What made me hold still, watch intensely, afraid to breath (and very feel very painful inside me) was your description of his efforts to reach you. You told of his efforts to stand by you and willingness save you from shark infested waters. This is what makes us fall in love with our therapists. Those sharks are our defenses, fears, shells, habitual aloneness, and a million different varieties of protections that keep anyone from reaching us. It really takes a heroic person to find a way though that to touch our inner cores and weather all we throw at them. It's very hard for someone like me in the baby stages to hold onto the idea that someone that heroic might be for real. It's very hard to believe that I'm not going to be just left stranded here to drown and be eaten by the sharks as soon as I become vulnerable. Sharing your story makes it just a little easier to hold onto that hope. Therapists have a VERY difficult job. Really, your story has two heroes, you for risking yourself, and him for reaching you.
This will take a few more readings to really soak up, but I wanted to respond right away.
Thank you so much for sharing your story and for reaching out to help us.
Very grateful Turtle
Posted by lucie lu on October 15, 2008, at 21:49:23
In reply to Re: For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by turtle on October 15, 2008, at 20:49:22
Turtle,
OK now I am laughing REALLY hard because I have an image of myself with a very long white beard, as old as Methuselah! You talk about my descriptions, you are no slouch in that department either.
Two things I didn't emphasize in that post that deserve mention... the first is the intensity of my feelings for him all the way through (except when he fell asleep on me). I've written a lot about those feelings in other threads. The second is that the process has hardly been as linear as I made it sound. It is true, as someone said, that therapy is more a spiral because we keep coming back to the same places over and over again, hopefully experiencing things a little different each time. So... here we are in the kitchen, you in diapers and me with my long white beard, both yelling GIMMEE COOKIE!!!!
I love your posts.
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on October 16, 2008, at 10:24:24
In reply to Re: For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by FindingMyDesire on October 15, 2008, at 16:51:58
> Wow, Lucie Lu,
> Thank you so much for sharing your experience here! It is very helpful - at least in the intellectual moment right now. I read this before lunch and then noticed that I felt much less shame while I was thinking about HER for that hour. I also think the JayMac "How often do you...?" thread has helped - but I need more of that conversation! Way more than I could even have here.
>
> Your line "I flopped around like a fish on a line" perfectly describes where I am right now. My head is so full of this stuff right now I don't know how I function at all really. And my body - either I am hurting; my palms, my chest, my throat out of some kind of pain, or I have a burning shame sensation in my belly, or I'm simply overwhelmed with sexual desire. It feels weird to have normal conversations with people in the hallway at work. Can't they tell I'm only half listening? What if I say her name out loud by accident?
>
> Anyway, thanks Lucie. Your sharing helps.
>
> FMDI don't think I made clear with my account that although the first intensity of the attachment feelings has sort of morphed into something else, I am very familiar with all the feelings you describe - I even called someone else his name, which was mortifying! I couldn't stop thinking about him and the intense, ever-present longings just swept through me emotionally and physically, pretty much as you have described so well.
What I wanted to convey was that nothing is static about the relationship, and your feelings about it change. Also one thing my T wanted me to learn, and we've worked on it a lot, is the ability to tolerate painful or uncomfortable feelings. For me, the model of this was separation anxiety from him. You'd think, given many of our pasts, that we'd actually been tolerating painful feelings for years. But the way I, at least, had done that was by dissociation and escapism in various flavors. But I have learned that these are not healthy ways and lead to their own problems. Healthy ways include things like reframing, positive thoughts (e.g. this won't last forever), sublimation etc. Maybe you and your T can talk about ways you can find to tolerate intense feelings in general. This skill is something I have to work hard on, but I think I'm gradually getting better at it. But I still struggle with separation anxiety!
Best,
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on October 16, 2008, at 10:47:49
In reply to Re: For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by JayMac on October 15, 2008, at 17:01:02
> Wow. Thank you for all of that. What a journey!!! What a continuous adventure as well.
>
> Your post made me cry because it reminds me that there is hope. Although my time with my T is in its early stages, I have hope in her ability and my ability to make therapy work for me. I'm slowly learning how to attach to her, identify with her, and let her help me in the way she believes is best. It's comforting for me to know that other people have successful relationships with their T and that it has helped them become successful with other people as well.
>
> Therapy brings adventure to all of us: as we are not born with the inclination that we must seek therapy, we are born with the inclination to form relationships.
>
> Our therapists allow us to first know, and then to experience the truths of our past, present, and future.
>
> We may not be the "patient" in his/her office forever, but forever may we be patient with ourselves. Forever may we be striving to know ourselves and experience ourselves as relational beings. Forever my we be seeking the truth.
>
> I don't mean to be too deep here. I feel touched and inclined to share what little I know.
>
>
> Peace to You!
> Hugs and Love,
> JayMac
>Jay, I am glad that the "hope message" came through because that's what I most wanted to convey. Those almost unbearable longings really do change into something more tolerable.
What I hear in your post sounds like what my T has called the ability to "make use of the relationship." You are incredibly motivated and honest, Jay, and you have a lot of courage! That is clear from your posts, and I really admire those qualities in you. You seem to be forming a really strong bond with your T, who sounds terrific BTW. It sounds to me that you are ideally set up to work through the problems relating to your mother, as you've described in other posts. Speaking of which, I hope that you will be patient and forgiving of yourself when the inevitable misteps and falls happen on the way. Sort of like getting back onto the horse after you've fallen off. You can learn a lot from those "mistakes."
Hugs and love to you too!
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on October 16, 2008, at 10:53:28
In reply to Re: For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by lucie lu on October 16, 2008, at 10:47:49
Posted by lucie lu on October 16, 2008, at 11:08:10
In reply to Re: For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by Suedehead on October 15, 2008, at 18:23:21
> Thank for for posting this. I've only been seeing my T since April, so we're in the beginning stages of our relationship, for sure. I think that I skipped straight to the 'intense' phase, as that's typically how I operate in relationships, but it's nice to think of a time in the future when we'll have settled down a little--when I will have really learned to trust him and to be more secure in my attachment. What you said about feeling like you and your T are becoming friends now really moved me. I hope that I experience that with mine someday.
Suede,
From what I've read on babble, people start from a lot of different places. For me, I had major trust issues and those had to be worked through before I could use the therapeutic relationship at all. Those were my stages 1 and 2 - the real "meat" started at 3 for me too. At the other end of the spectrum, some people skip all of my steps 1-5 and start right at 6! These are people who feel pretty together already, may not have significant problems with relationships, but maybe come to therapy to work on a particular problem or issue in their everyday lives. Something I can only aspire to ;-) Maybe that will be my stage 7! (lol)Your ability to form such a close attachment with your T will probably help to leap-frog you into a good place from which to explore the issues that brought you into therapy. I really look forward to hearing about your journey too and hope you will share it with us.
Best,
Lucie
Posted by lucie lu on October 16, 2008, at 11:18:00
In reply to Re: For Jay, Turtle, FMD + others -- LOOOONG!, posted by turtle on October 15, 2008, at 20:49:22
> No wonder you had to laugh at me for being an impudent young upstart who in my last post gave your own advice back to you and dared you to slip back into being 'younger in therapy!'
When I said I had to laugh there, I was laughing at myself not you. It always makes me laugh when I find myself offering advice that I haven't thought to, or been able to do, apply to myself. My T said it happens to therapists too, which I find really amusing. I try to picture things that my T tells me that he can't manage in his own life. In my imagination, that leads to some pretty hilarious things! I think we should give a name to it - how about "boomerang advice"??
Actually, Turtle, it was good advice that you gave me. And I did actually feel better getting some support and nurturing from a lot of small interactions instead of expecting a lot from my close relationships. And I hadn't thought of things that way, so it was really good that you drew that parallel for me.
I'm glad you like to laugh - I do too. Helps prevent frown wrinkles (lol)
Lucie
Posted by turtle on October 16, 2008, at 20:39:29
In reply to p.s. » turtle, posted by lucie lu on October 16, 2008, at 11:18:00
>
> When I said I had to laugh there, I was laughing at myself not you.> I'm glad you like to laugh - I do too. Helps prevent frown wrinkles (lol)
>
> LucieMethuselah is covered in wrinkles, I think you are too late!
I'm sorry Lucie, "laugh *at* me" was an unfortunate wording that I didn't mean to use. Written word is so tricky in that it can lock in a meaning (unintended) and is not moderated by tone or expression. I was definitely sharing the laughter with you, not feeling laughed at.
Thank you for checking in. It was sweet of you to be concerned and clarify.
turtle
This is the end of the thread.
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