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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by DAisym on October 12, 2007, at 13:41:52
I pushed really hard on my therapist yesterday. I had all these intense feelings, for lots of reasons and he seemed the only place to dump them. He asked me if I was trying to shock him. And then he asked me if I was trying to get him to agree that I didn't need therapy anymore. I think the answer to both questions was yes. But what then? If I don't figure all this out in therapy, where do I figure it out?
Group is ending. And I'm really sad, because even though sometimes it was exactly what I did not want to be doing, I was just starting to figure out how to use the group in a helpful way. So of course I'm triggered into thinking that everyone I care about eventually leaves me. And the major person I'm worried about is my therapist. So why, if I want to "keep" him - do I also want to push him away? He said, "do you want to check in over the weekend, you are so angry and upset..." I said, "No, I'm good." He asked again, I still said no. He asked if I'd write to him, I said I already was but not stuff he could read. He just nodded and I left. And now I'm upset that I've cut myself off from him again.
I thought I was done doing this...
Posted by annierose on October 12, 2007, at 14:12:09
In reply to Pushing and Pulling again, posted by DAisym on October 12, 2007, at 13:41:52
You want to pull away because he does care. You do feel the caring and that is so painful, scary and wonderful all rolled into one experience. It’s counter-intuitive but unfortunately, it is the template our brains have mastered: people that care about us either hurt us or leave or both. It shouldn’t be that way, but it is.
Push through this. Call, write, and keep all the lines of communication open to him even if the little part of you says, “NO. He doesn’t care.” He does. He cares a great deal. Tap into your rational side and talk to her. She feels the caring. She knows it’s real.
I care. And I can even share ice cream or a glass of wine with you – or both.
You are special inside and out. Keep pushing back. You may tell him shocking things, but is he expressing shock? No, he is concerned. He wanted to call you this weekend, right? You can't scare him away. He wants this relationship to work for you. He is not going anywhere.
I told my therapist this morning that I felt a shift in our therapy. She acknowledged feeling it too. After (almost) 4 years of work, I am starting to really trust her and work with these vulnerable feelings. My point – it took 4 years (plus the initial 4 years) just to get to the beginning.
We are in the midst of a long journey that encounters road blocks, detours, scenic drives and auto pilot. Let's buckle our seat beats and help each other naviage the roadmap. (We're both great back seat drivers.)
I hope you know you can lean on me.
Love, Annierose
Posted by muffled on October 12, 2007, at 14:19:56
In reply to Pushing and Pulling again, posted by DAisym on October 12, 2007, at 13:41:52
:-(
So annoying, over and over.
Why can't we GET it?
I the same I spose.
Its awful tiring.
Stupid people.
Stupid emotions.
But then my little girl hugs me and smiles, and I can see she feels safe and secure.
So I goto keep going.
I spose we'll get it right eventually.
Mebbe its goto do w/your people daisy? Someboddy upset bout something?
Take care,
M
Posted by RealMe on October 12, 2007, at 21:19:25
In reply to Pushing and Pulling again, posted by DAisym on October 12, 2007, at 13:41:52
Well a couple of thoughts. If you abandon him first, then he can't abandon you.
The other is one I struggle with; I get angry and push my T away as I am scared of the closeness. I could get really hurt.
Today my T noted that I haven't been angry with him lately, and I agreed and said I am more sad now. He wonders if I am more comfortable with him, and I said yes, and so now I am more in touch with the sadness and loneliness of when I was younger and later too.
Here is something my T said to me today that sort of fits. He knows the pushing away is not gone for good. I know it too. When I was in therapy years ago, I tjhere was the push and pull. Now I just push when I get scare, and when I am there with him, I am sad. So what the hell, pushing awsy sometimes is eaier, but as you know, afterwards you feel like sh*t for cutting off your nose to spite your face. T will understand as you know.
RealMe
Posted by fallsfall on October 13, 2007, at 8:30:55
In reply to Pushing and Pulling again, posted by DAisym on October 12, 2007, at 13:41:52
Maybe you want to know that even though group is ending (and you "wished" it to stop), that your therapy won't end. That he'll still be there. He will, Daisy.
I see so much progress - you are now so aware that you are pushing and pulling. That is huge.
(((Daisy)))
Love,
Falls
Posted by happyflower on October 14, 2007, at 5:58:56
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again » DAisym, posted by fallsfall on October 13, 2007, at 8:30:55
Daisy,
I think you are making wonderful progress in therapy. And you know what? Even though you told him not to call you and you said you wouldn't write him, it is still okay to do so. In fact I am sure your T would be happy to hear from you. (((((((((daisy))))))) take care
Posted by Daisym on October 15, 2007, at 14:51:55
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again » DAisym, posted by annierose on October 12, 2007, at 14:12:09
***You may tell him shocking things, but is he expressing shock? No, he is concerned. He wanted to call you this weekend, right? You can't scare him away. He wants this relationship to work for you. He is not going anywhere.
He called yesterday morning to say, "I hope you are OK - I was thinking about you. Do you want to talk?" So we connected last night and talked for a little while. I told him I was surprised that he even wanted me back after the way I acted on Thursday. He said he expects that from time to time. It is so frustrating! He said more than ever he wants me to feel our connection and use it to help beat back the barrage of fears. I told him that I'd wanted to call but since I'd made such a big deal out of "no thank you" I felt I couldn't. He told me to never let that stand in my way. He did an imitation of me, "Hello - I've changed my mind, AGAIN!" - which made me laugh, but he was serious about not painting myself into a corner. He said he might not always know when he needs to go in after me so it is important to know that no matter what, I can still reach out.
He brought up some of the shocking things so I guess we aren't going to pretend I didn't say them. But he didn't push it on the phone, I think he was just letting me know that he remembers and is OK with stuff.
It helped to spend time with you yesterday - you said a lot of what he said. I hope the rest of your trip is fun and you remember to take good care of yourself.
Hugs,
Daisy
Posted by Daisym on October 15, 2007, at 14:56:07
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again » DAisym, posted by muffled on October 12, 2007, at 14:19:56
I think part of this was the huge ball of feelings that had been pushed down all during my trip and it all came up and out. I talked to my therapist last night about still needing a safe base and he said he thinks this is true. Even as I get more and more used to separations from him, this one was too long and too far away. And he pointed out that I even though I didn't see him, I was in close proximity to my dad, which probably unconsciously kept me on high alert for two weeks. And my therapist wasn't there - so the younger parts are weepy about that.
It is all so complicated.
Posted by Daisym on October 15, 2007, at 15:04:06
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again » DAisym, posted by RealMe on October 12, 2007, at 21:19:25
*****Well a couple of thoughts. If you abandon him first, then he can't abandon you.
Yes - totally. And I've had some big losses this past month so of course I think he is next. He said I'm projecting, but I can't help it.
*****The other is one I struggle with; I get angry and push my T away as I am scared of the closeness. I could get really hurt.
My therapist points this out often. He notes when we have a very close session, I withdraw for awhile. He calls it "getting in your own way." He has to remind me sometimes that I do much better - I function better - when I allow myself to feel his caring and our connection. It is too late to prevent the hurt - but I still pull back anyway.
*****Today my T noted that I haven't been angry with him lately, and I agreed and said I am more sad now. He wonders if I am more comfortable with him, and I said yes, and so now I am more in touch with the sadness and loneliness of when I was younger and later too.
I bounce between the sadness and the anxiety. The anger flares up - and my therapist really wants me to work with it and bring it into sessions. I know there is this belief that anger is masking a fear or hurt -but sometimes sadness masks the anger. Because it is more acceptable to be sad than angry. People want you to get over your anger and either "forgive" or "get past it." I hate being angry but sometimes it is just there. I'm really lonely a lot of the time and sometimes this converts to anger as well.
******Here is something my T said to me today that sort of fits. He knows the pushing away is not gone for good. I know it too. When I was in therapy years ago, I tjhere was the push and pull. Now I just push when I get scare, and when I am there with him, I am sad. So what the hell, pushing awsy sometimes is eaier, but as you know, afterwards you feel like sh*t for cutting off your nose to spite your face. T will understand as you know.
He seems to expect it and understand better than I do. I want to get to an accepting place and stay there. I hate that feelings are fluid, even good ones. I'm really glad you've been able to let your therapist move closer to you and share more of your feelings. I guess we are pretty hard on them, aren't we?
Posted by Daisym on October 15, 2007, at 15:10:04
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again » DAisym, posted by fallsfall on October 13, 2007, at 8:30:55
How come being aware doesn't help me not do it? :(
Isn't it interesting that I can absolutely "know" one thing and still feel a completely different thing?! Makes me wonder if I need more CBT techniques.
I think my abandonment issues are very, very deep. And as much as I think they are under control, when they flare up, it is like a volcano. And then there is such a need for containment - that physical need to be held so I don't blow apart. And I can't get that need met in therapy so what then? Ug - it all feels so futile sometimes. I lose track of what I'm even working toward with all this therapy. Just staying alive doesn't seem like enough.
And this is progress? I feel like I'm playing Shoots and Ladders and i just slid down backwards.
Posted by Daisym on October 15, 2007, at 15:12:15
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again, posted by happyflower on October 14, 2007, at 5:58:56
Thanks - you were right. He said he would be completely OK with me changing my mind. It is a pride thing but it is also a control thing. I don't want the younger pieces in control all the time.
I've been trying to figure out just what it is about October that makes me crazy. I was reading back old posts and old journal pages and I seem to always fall apart in October. Isn't that weird?
Posted by sunnydays on October 15, 2007, at 17:02:43
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again » fallsfall, posted by Daisym on October 15, 2007, at 15:10:04
Hi Daisy,
I'm late to this thread, so I hope that's ok. I am feeling soooo many of the things you are, and it is so hard. We've been talking a lot lately about why I get scared he's going to leave and I was convinced on Friday that I had done it - that he finally hated me. Of course he doesn't, but I can't seem to believe that deep in the core of me. He was trying to help me practice some techniques to calm down on Friday, and I just kept getting more and more upset, and almost clinging to the upset. I wouldn't even try a lot of the techniques, I wanted soothing from him so bad, but I didn't know at the time that was what it was, I just knew I felt awful.
That was probably the third session in a row I've been in tears the whole time, and the other times he was much more soothing. But I talked to him after the session on Friday because I was convinced he hated me and that I had done bad in the session because I wouldn't try some of the things. It amazed me and was hard for me to believe, but he said it was good I expressed my feelings and let them come out so he could see how bad they got sometimes. And that I didn't need to ask permission to feel however I felt, and that he wasn't going to leave. And I kept pressing him on that, asking it over and over in different ways because I was so scared, and finally he said, "I just don't know how to tell you, sunnydays, but you're fine. You're ok." Of course that freaked me out that he was frustrated with me, but I didn't tell him that.
Then Friday night I got really upset again. I said "Say something," in session and he just said, "How would that help? Why don't you say something?" And that just tore me apart. I emailed him about it, but he didn't answer that particular email (I send him so many that he reads them but doesn't answer most of them). And then Friday night just memories and everything were overwhelming me and I called his voicemail at 2am and just left this long message, crying. I thought of calling the on-call person, but I just didn't think I could handle it if they didn't understand.
So he called Saturday morning, but I was asleep and didn't hear the phone. So he left a message, and I called him back when I got the message because he said to. He told me when we connected that I scared him and that if I hadn't called back in a few hours he would have called Security and had them come check on me to make sure I was ok. I wasn't suicidal, just really upset and crying so hard apparently that he couldn't understand most of my message.
So, sorry this ended up being all about me, but sometimes it helps me to hear others' experiences. I definitely understand the deep abandonment fears. If you figure out the secret to taming them, Daisy, you'll share it, won't you?
sunnydays
Posted by RealMe on October 15, 2007, at 19:52:25
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again » RealMe, posted by Daisym on October 15, 2007, at 15:04:06
****guess we are pretty hard on them, aren't we?
RE our therapists; I am just thankful I have a therapist now who is okay with me getting angry and who says he welcomes me being able to say something about it. My previous T said I should find someone else becasue we could not get past the anger. So, I stuffed my anger so he would not get rid of me. Well you know what happened. I got more and more depressed, and he had an even better case for me doing ECT.
Current T says therapy is the answer for me, not meds and not ECT. I take Parnate for now, but I think he is right. Once I can deal with the CSA and CPA (physical) and the CMA (mental) then I probably won't need meds. I have found it easier to talk about the physical abuse and sedondarily the mental abuse. Hardest is the sexual abuse. Then I think a lot of times, what is the point; it is all in the past, and lets just forget it. Can't do though. Guess you know that too. We shall all of us hang in there and do what needs to be done and remind ourselves it is going to be a bumpy ride--no smooth uphill thing.
RealMe
Posted by fallsfall on October 15, 2007, at 20:28:47
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again » fallsfall, posted by Daisym on October 15, 2007, at 15:10:04
> How come being aware doesn't help me not do it? :(
>
It will - eventually. It is a process - you can only do one step at a time.> Isn't it interesting that I can absolutely "know" one thing and still feel a completely different thing?! Makes me wonder if I need more CBT techniques.
>
I think that we need to go a step beyond "knowing". I think there is a deeper way of knowing that lets us feel it, too. I'm not sure how to get there, but I think it has something to do with living with it and getting used to it.> I think my abandonment issues are very, very deep. And as much as I think they are under control, when they flare up, it is like a volcano. And then there is such a need for containment - that physical need to be held so I don't blow apart. And I can't get that need met in therapy so what then? Ug - it all feels so futile sometimes. I lose track of what I'm even working toward with all this therapy. Just staying alive doesn't seem like enough.
>Well, staying alive is a good start. I think that the feeling that you will blow apart (for me it was oozing) dissipates over time as you get better. At least for me, it wasn't that the ooze was contained, it was that the holes stopped existing.
> And this is progress? I feel like I'm playing Shoots and Ladders and i just slid down backwards.
Yes, but the game isn't over. You can get to the end.
(((Daisy)))
Love,
Falls
Posted by Racer on October 15, 2007, at 22:07:31
In reply to Re: Pushing and Pulling again » happyflower, posted by Daisym on October 15, 2007, at 15:12:15
>
>
> I've been trying to figure out just what it is about October that makes me crazy. I was reading back old posts and old journal pages and I seem to always fall apart in October. Isn't that weird?This time of year, I get more depressed, too. What's more, I absolutely reject the idea that it has any relation to Seasonal Affective Disorder. It's only a coincidence that it's not so bad if I sit under my therapy light each morning... I deny that it's seasonal depression, on top of plain vanilla depression.
Daisy, I wish I had anything to offer that might help. I'm very sorry you're struggling right now, though, and if there is anything I can do to help, please don't hesitate to get in touch. Even if it's just to say that I'm pedantic and long winded...
By the way, my beloved T-straps broke that night we had dinner. I think Retail Therapy is in order, quite soon...
This is the end of the thread.
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