![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 6 to 30 of 54. Go back in thread:
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 15, 2006, at 20:06:50
In reply to Okay- this is the big one **child abuse triggers*, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 19:43:44
with the amount of understanding and insight you have, when, I think, you haven't gone all that much, or that intensively, to your T yet. I am especially impressed that you are having some inklings of abuse, even though they are brief- at least, the emotional feelings connected to them are brief. Definitely, you will want to tell all of this to your T when you feel trusting and safe enough. Re-experiencing that with a T whom you experience as caring and safe is how you will heal from it.
The fact that you married a great guy, and have accomplished a lot with your education and profession means, to me, that there are big important parts of you which are healthy. When you're going through the agony of remembering abuse, it's so good to be able to step back and give yourself credit for having the personal resources to be healthy in large areas of your life
Posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 20:39:45
In reply to I'm tremendously impressed » llrrrpp, posted by Pfinstegg on September 15, 2006, at 20:06:50
Thank you Pfinstegg,
I still vacillate between thinking that I'm just making this whole thing up vs. confronting the ugliness of my family that I've always denied to myself.Thank you for saying that I can still be the good stuff (like ABD when I'm 27) even when I start to confront the bad stuff.
I think I was fighting the bad stuff for so long because I thought that they would somehow negate the good stuff that I've done with my life.
sh*t. I'm crying again. Well. It's a good crying.
thanks Pfinstegg. thank you thank you thank you-ll
Posted by ElaineM on September 15, 2006, at 20:56:56
In reply to Re: I'm tremendously impressed » Pfinstegg, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 20:39:45
LL: That's such intense stuff. I think it is possible to forget stuff. I had just started talking with LadyT about "hypothetical situations" before we finished. I'd always had a vague wondering. Then as I grew older, ways of coping, odd reactions, patterns of behaviour, odd random childhood memories all started coming together. One day out of nowhere, my sister asked if she could ask me an uncomfortable question (and we don't talk with each other ever). And I got the, "Do you sometimes ever think that..." question. I went over that question a million times in my head trying to bring it up to LT, and I couldn't. Even thinking it made me ill -- saying it was unfathomable. How could I ever know? I finally did speak it cause I was driving myself (literally) mad. I don't need to say what happened after, but your post just resonated soooo much.
Really - everything. I remember planning escape routes. I asked for a chain ladder they sold in a catalogue, that you could hang out the window if you needed to escape. I used to write wills. I used to run away to live in the car. God, the part where you were talking about the drain pipes just rips my heart out. :'( And the fearing men..... (((((LL)))))....I don't know what else to say.
It is so hard to grow up learning to fit the family facade. I think that's where some of my forgetting (or my re-writing) comes in. When you're growing up and you witness stuff, or experience it yourself, and your brain says one thing, but then someone explains it away -- that didn't happen, you didn't see that, you don't feel that way -- and eventually you don't need to wait for someone else to say it, the tape plays itself in your head, and you start interpreting events as-they-happen differently. Or at least for me. I don't know if you felt something similar, but as I got older (21yrold/ED) I started to realize that some stuff wasn't actually forgotten it had just been input differently into my head. As though certain memories were logged wearing a mask. (I still have huges blanks - large gaps of nothing up until teens) I'm not saying this is exactly the same. But I think I can feel the hurt of "un-knowingness" in your words. Sorry, if I'm way out in left field.
I'm so sorry that it hurts so much now that some pieces are coming together. You are so brave for starting on this, and sharing. ((((((LL)))))) I can't say how moving it is. And I think it's a good idea to give yourself a break too, and put everything away for the weekend - you deserve it. And two scoops with sprinkles.
hugs and blove, EL
Posted by finelinebob on September 15, 2006, at 20:59:46
In reply to Re: Trauma and forgetting? **trigger**, posted by happyflower on September 15, 2006, at 18:16:01
I've mentioned this elsewhere,so sorry if this is a repeat for you. After a long time in therapy (and yes, also being very anti-Freudian) I came do decide I've been through four phases of therapy.
Wnat I needed to talk about. I sought out therapy because I had an immediate need. That's what we addressed. Exploring it further just opened doors to other past experiences, so...
What I wanted to talk about. I guess this is where all the trust building really began in earnest. Opening up about my entire life, the hurts, the dead dreams, the occasional joys, the long progression of it through time. And as I began to piece individual events together into aspects of certain beliefs with even perhaps a particular triggering event...
What I did **NOT** want to talk about. This could get really scary at times. I'd spend 45minutes with lockjaw, trying to force my mouth open, squeezing the air out of my lungs, anything I could do not to speak. The Beast really did NOT want to be revealed and brought out into the light. When I could get something out, I had the bizarre feeling of intense anger and hatred towards myself as well as supreme satisfaction of being able to express it. Enough of this peeling back the layers and layers of lies and camoflage, I found ...
What my (subconcious) mind would not even let me realize had happened to me. These experiences were and are extremely freaky when they happen, and the anger they can generate is overwhelming. But it passes, because I've built strength progressing through each level.
One example. I had always thought I had forgiven myself for the things I had done to myself and my role in my quitely dysfunctional family. I've also always been a big believer in Free Will and, as a consequence, G-d staying out of our individual lives to allow us to choose our path to the degree we can. I do not believe in G-d's "omnipotence". No Deus ex Machina for me. After a particularly upsetting "phase 4" session, I had my iPod on in the subway, trying to find something to soothe me. Instead I got Kate Bush and "Running Up That Hill"". When she sang, "and if I only could I'd make a deal with G-d and I'd get him to swap our places" ... well, she sings about the power it would give her. For me, I saw the reverse. And I saw that were G-d in my place throughout my life, G-d wouldn't have been able to do any better than I did. Realizing that, I could truly begin to forgive myself, and doing so was one of the most painful things I had ever done. But it was worth every pain.
Posted by Pfinstegg on September 15, 2006, at 21:02:06
In reply to Re: I'm tremendously impressed » Pfinstegg, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 20:39:45
Oh, that's exactly it! I got my MD when I was 26, married and had a son, and tried SO hard to be normal and healthy in every way. I was terrified that if I let in any memories of neglect and abuse, they would just take over and ruin everything. It took becoming really depressed for me to be willing to really face it.
I will say, for me anyway, there were times in treatment when that really seemed to be happening. But it was temporary- temporarily worse. In the long run (of treatment) it is incredibly better than it would ever have been without therapy.
I hope you have intensive enough therapy to deal with everything in depth, and to allow a real connection with your therapist to develop. I think we need those two things in order to heal. (Daisy and I are two examples of people who go to therapy almost daily- that's a wonderful gift, I know, and not possible for everyone) But at least twice a week is very good.
I just know you will do really well with therapy, and will be so glad you went through it.
Posted by antigua on September 15, 2006, at 21:49:46
In reply to Trauma and forgetting? **trigger**, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 16:37:05
It all sounds so familiar. I used to play in the woods just to get away. I had escape routes planned and I now know that my fantasy was to be rescued, and why didn't anyone care enough about me to see that I needed rescuing? So, to survive, I split myself into two different people, and left that poor, tortured wounded girl to live inside me, influence my life and hurt me over and over again, because I didn't know what was there. But, it's what I had to do to survive. I couldn't cope with the ambivalence about how I felt about the people in my life...
My sister became promiscuous, I stayed as far away from men as I could. I married a man 180 degrees different from my father (or so I thought). I got my Master's and worked my way up in my field. It started to crash when I had my first child. There was too much triggering going on, with the baby around. Sixteen years later, here I am, still struggling to figure everything out, but I accept it more now. There are some things I will never know and I'm o.k. with that now. But I do take that time, now, to step back and admire the life I've created--I'm proud of my kids and I know I will do good work again.
But I want me back. It won't be the same me, there are new roads to travel when I'm stronger, but we all see it happen over and over again. We can only carry this burden so long,using our outdated coping mechanisms until we start to crumble. We are building new selves, and I swear, even if takes me to the end, I will relish every single day I have with the new me.
It's heartbreaking for all of us, and I can't tell you how much inspiration and hope you all give me every day. Just knowing I'm not alone helps so much.
love to all,
antigua
Posted by llrrrpp on September 16, 2006, at 22:33:44
In reply to Okay- this is the big one **child abuse triggers*, posted by llrrrpp on September 15, 2006, at 19:43:44
The one man I heve ever felt physically and emotionally safe with. I told him everything, as far as I understand it now. It took 3 hours. It was so hard. And I didn't just tell him dispassionately. I showed him the fear that little llrrrpp had when her door was broken in by her raging father, who wanted to beat her for crying. (That's one memory I know is not a mistake. My door at my parent's home is actually broken.)
I asked him if it makes sense, knowing me as well as he does, and knowing my family as well as he does. He is a very good observer of human behavior. He knows people well.
He said it makes sense. All of it makes sense. And that it explains a lot.
And so I'm not just making this stuff up in my head. I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill.
He still loves me. He even wanted to show me how much. But I'm too broken right now. I asked him if he regrets marrying me. I'm so broken.
But you will get better. he said. And your T will help you get better. If you can trust him with this stuff, then you will be okay.
And he still loves me. He just asked me if I was okay. He still wants to hug me.
I feel ... so many things ... so confused. but somehow. I know it's going to be different. I will never be the same. I have started telling my secrets.
-ll
Posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 0:33:27
In reply to I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by llrrrpp on September 16, 2006, at 22:33:44
You did a very hard thing. You are very brave. I'm so glad your husband was able to hold you and let you tell your story. I'm amazed and jealous and impressed.
You are right - things won't ever be the same again. They might be worse for a little while and then they will be better. You are cleaning a wound, getting rid of the poisen. It can be painful and lonely and confusing. I hope you can let your therapist help you.
Go slow. Don't force things. If you get too flooded you can really cause yourself to have a break down. It isn't uncommon for old, suicidal feelings to resurface and this can mess with your mind. So be good to yourself and try to take breaks from thinking about it.
I say all this from experience. I really do know how hard it is to give it a rest, or go slow. But it is better, really.
Take care,
Daisy
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:45:11
In reply to I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by llrrrpp on September 16, 2006, at 22:33:44
> I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill.
You don't have to have suffered severe abuse to justify not making a mountain out of a molehill. Feelings are feelings. They are justified because they are.
> I feel ... so many things ... so confused. but somehow. I know it's going to be different. I will never be the same. I have started telling my secrets.
You were getting some place with therapy. You were focused on the present. Feelings and thoughts in the present that you were struggling with.
Now...
There is the 'tell your secrets of the past' (which are what makes present difficulty understandable) 'and then you will be cured' model.
Yeah. It can be a significant change...
A change in self identity even.
Focusing on past harms can make one identify quite strongly as a victim of past injustice.
There was stuff in the present...
You didn't feel comfortable telling your t your thoughts and feelings.
Do you feel like you have to be a happy bubbly person in order to earn love / acceptance?
I don't know what to say...
Sometimes the path splits and one can't go back.
I'm so sorry.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:46:47
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:45:11
welcome to the club...
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:31:42
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 0:33:27
> You did a very hard thing. You are very brave. I'm so glad your husband was able to hold you and let you tell your story. I'm amazed and jealous and impressed.
Thank you Daisy
> You are right - things won't ever be the same again. They might be worse for a little while and then they will be better. You are cleaning a wound, getting rid of the poisen. It can be painful and lonely and confusing. I hope you can let your therapist help you.
I can, and I will. Now that I'm starting to figure out why it's hard for me to be open, and particularly hard to be open to a man, who I perceive to have power over me-- I just want to start over again. Tell my story from the beginning.
> Go slow. Don't force things. If you get too flooded you can really cause yourself to have a break down. It isn't uncommon for old, suicidal feelings to resurface and this can mess with your mind. So be good to yourself and try to take breaks from thinking about it.I just want to get it out of my system. Today. Yesterday. I want to tell T everything. I want to tell PT how he triggered me, (even though he had no idea). or tell my guy buddy how a simple question: "what are you so afraid of?" made something "click" in my head. I just want to get it OUT.
But yes, you are right. It is dangerous and scary to overwhelm myself like this. Maybe I feel confident that I've got things figured out, but it's just the beginning. Even as I felt so relieved to tell my husband everything, I still broke down sobbing in bed, and asked him over and over again why he married me. And he had to rub my back until I fell asleep. I struggled with allowing myself to relax as he held me. I just wanted to hold onto the fear and the anxiety. It felt comfortable, somehow. I'm scared.
I woke up too early. I can't get my mind off of it. How little events are linked- how best to communicate these connections to my T. I feel like I'm trying to hold onto a 1200 page novel that I've memorized word for word. I'm scared that if I stop rehearsing it, I will forget it, and lose my chance to write down the most important story of my entire life.
I saw the sun rise. blush in the sky. tinting the buidlings a rosy color. Completely different from sunset. A different light. More ephemeral.
I know that if I don't take care of me that this insomnia will become very bad very quickly.
> I say all this from experience. I really do know how hard it is to give it a rest, or go slow. But it is better, really.
>
> Take care,
> DaisyThanks Daisy. Even if you didn't have experience, you write from a place of deep wisdom, and I sincerely thank you for helping me understand what is going on. I need to go slowly in my head, but go quickly in terms of getting T up to date with my current struggles. This is very difficult.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:46:55
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:45:11
> > I'm not making a mountain out of a molehill.
>
> You don't have to have suffered severe abuse to justify not making a mountain out of a molehill. Feelings are feelings. They are justified because they are.Thank you Alex. I have to tell myself this OVER and OVER. I feel this way because I am HUMAN, not because I am (faulty/defective/a victim/ill/diseased/wrong/weak/female/imbecile/self-indulgent...)
> You were getting some place with therapy. You were focused on the present. Feelings and thoughts in the present that you were struggling with.
>
> Now...
>
> There is the 'tell your secrets of the past' (which are what makes present difficulty understandable) 'and then you will be cured' model.
>
> Yeah. It can be a significant change...
>
> A change in self identity even.
>
> Focusing on past harms can make one identify quite strongly as a victim of past injustice.I've always known that this happened to me. I always was aware of it. I just didn't make the connection between what happened TO me, and how it' affecting me right now. I think that the missing link was that I never allowed myself to feel it. Emotions are ways that our minds bind and consolidate many diverse senses of information into an easy-to-read format. I've known about things that are causing me anxiety in the present, like physical therapy, or going to see T or pdoc, or my dissertation, or even visiting my husband, who lives a few hundred miles away because he's in the military. I've known about things that made me feel anxious as a child. But I've never connected the two in my head before. I just buried the past.
T told me over and over again that it's going to get really hard. That I'm going to have feelings come up to the surface that I'm not prepared for. And that those feelings can be very scary, and make me feel like I'm losing my mind. I've experienced this four or five times in the last 6 months. I guess I was getting somewhere with therapy.
> There was stuff in the present...
>
> You didn't feel comfortable telling your t your thoughts and feelings.
>
> Do you feel like you have to be a happy bubbly person in order to earn love / acceptance?of course I do. It works well in casual friendships and for my relationships at work. It's a good skill to have. Maybe it's a strong facet of my personality, but once I get to know people better, I'm not afraid of showing them that I have a little depth too. It's just that I have this crippling anxiety and insecurity that I've never been able to shake, even in situations where I have nothing to fear-- I can tell myself this OVER and OVER, but I still can't extinguish it. Fear conditioning is very powerful ((((amygdala)))).
> I don't know what to say...
>
> Sometimes the path splits and one can't go back.
>
> I'm so sorry.I'm not sorry Alex. I didn't like my path. I WANT to have a choice. I don't WANT to go back. I will have to remind myself that turning around 180 degrees and LOOKING at the past doesn't mean that I'm headed in that direction. When I get to the fork in the road, I want to be able to look behind me and figure out which branch takes me furthest away, fastest.
-ll
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:49:38
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger**, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 4:46:47
> welcome to the club...
Thank you for your welcome, but will you be offended if I try to avoid putting myself in a category? I don't want to limit my options for who I am, what will happen to me, or what I should expect. I just want to do my own thing.
If it's a club of people who are doing their own things- sign me up. Oh wait. I'm already here. babbling.
-ll
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 9:47:35
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:49:38
> Thank you for your welcome, but will you be offended...not offended at all.
you stay you.
:-)
welcome.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 10:10:25
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 8:46:55
> I feel this way because I am HUMAN...
Yeah. I think so. I have this philosophy... It isn't really an 'academic' philosophy position (though I like to think it is informed by and consistent with it) it is more a philosophy of life type thing...
I don't think there is an answer to the question 'when I stab your body with a pin why do YOU feel pain and not ME?'
aka
'why did my conscious experience get to be associated with my body'? (and not somebody elses body).
It can be hard to explain the problem sometimes... I guess if you haven't wondered it yourself it can be hard to get into the spirit of it. But the problem just occurs to some people.Anyway... I think that my conscious experience JUST IS the product of my brain processes (genes and maturation) and my environment (both natural and social). And given those things... My conscious thoughts, feelings etc are what they are. As such... In a way it doesn't make sense even to ask whether they are justified. They just are.
And if I had been associated with your body I'd be along for your ride, thinking your thoughts and feeling your feelings etc...
And if you had been associated with my body you would be along for mine...
And if your husband had been associated with your body he would be along for your ride...And so forth.
I don't know. Don't know if it makes sense... It helps me sometimes. To think of it that way. To kind of step back from myself and see myself a little more objectively. When I feel unacceptable. Because... I don't think anyone else is unacceptable. So... I guess I just am same as everyone else. Don't know if this makes sense...
> > There is the 'tell your secrets of the past' (which are what makes present difficulty understandable) 'and then you will be cured' model.
> > Yeah. It can be a significant change...Yeah. And the jury is still out on that model...
(There are alternative models)I think depression usually is a shutting down of feelings. Maybe because we think those feelings are unacceptable.
> > Do you feel like you have to be a happy bubbly person in order to earn love / acceptance?
> of course I do.Do you think love / acceptance is something that has to be earned?
That if you aren't happy and bubbly... Then you aren't worthy of love / acceptance?
> It works well in casual friendships and for my relationships at work. It's a good skill to have.
Yes. It is indeed a terrific skill to have. Sometimes what we need to do is to put on that happy face. Especially with casual friendships and working relationships.
But there can be a balance...
And sometimes putting on a happy face and not addressing those feelings (not acknowledging them, stuffing them, avoiding them) can lead to... Depression.
But there can be a balance...
> I have this crippling anxiety and insecurity that I've never been able to shake, even in situations where I have nothing to fear-- I can tell myself this OVER and OVER, but I still can't extinguish it. Fear conditioning is very powerful
Yeah.
Sometimes... Accepting the feeling for what it is (a feeling that is understandable) can help it lessen in intensity. But that being said... Easier said than done methinks...> > Sometimes the path splits and one can't go back.
> > I'm so sorry.
> I'm not sorry Alex. I didn't like my path.Yeah. I guess I was thinking about frameworks...
> I WANT to have a choice.
You have choices. I think you will have many choices...
> I will have to remind myself that turning around 180 degrees and LOOKING at the past doesn't mean that I'm headed in that direction. When I get to the fork in the road, I want to be able to look behind me and figure out which branch takes me furthest away, fastest.
Sometimes I think it is about...
Finding the middle path between escape and indulgence...
(In both cases it bites you on the *ss)
(This is mostly to me. I should say that).
Sorry...
I don't know what else to say...
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 10:10:25
Alex, you write "Sorry...
I don't know what else to say..."You've said it. Or helped ME say it, which is even better. It's good. It's all good. I guess I'll just take llrrrpp along for the ride. I'm no dualist either. Consciousness is an inevitable consequence of my physical being. That doesn't mean that it has to make sense to me, but it cannot be excised either. I asked my husband today if he could just take some scissors and "snip-snip" the bad stuff out of my brain. He said um, well if all is okay in here (pointing to his heart) than it will all be okay in here (pointing to his head). I responded- okay, well can you "snip-snip" the bad stuff out of my heart then?
I don't know what the model is that me and T are working with. All I know is that I'm not strong enough to take this journey alone. I need all the help I can get, even as I resist it.
-ll
(thanks Alex. You're awesome. really)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 17, 2006, at 18:25:41
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
the trouble is...
the view is kinda paradoxical.
to consider consciousness on the one hand and the body / brain on the other and to consider that it is possible to seperate one from the other (so that identity follows consciousness)...
to even frame the question requires dualism. in order for it to be logically possible requires that consciousness and body are logically distinct.
or maybe... they aren't distinct in this world and they couldn't be seperated because of laws...
what are the psychophysical laws connecting my conscious experience with this body?
how would we go about finding out about those?
we can discover correlations between conscious experiences and certain kinds of brain states but what is the law ensuring the correlation holds?
identity?
supervenience?
contingent fact?
causation?
is there a law?to ask the question...
is to ask a question that has no answer.
w said that where a question could be asked
the question must be capable of being answered
if there was no possibility of answer
then the question is meaningless nonsense
(this is known as quietism)
shh
we can't think how to answer that
so you must stop asking meaningless questions.but it seems to make sense.
the aim of philosophy is to show the fly the way out of the flybottle...
or something
Posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » alexandra_k, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 14:38:21
I wish I could find my post on "therapy is NOT an after school special." I get so frustrated when things are portrayed as "Tell - cry - forgive - all better." Yeah - we wish.
But I think telling is an important part of the process for some of us. It is partly reclaiming your right to say "no" and partly a shuffling of lenses that we look at our history with. For example, telling about the abuse for me has felt (and feels) like a huge betrayal of my dad and my family. After all - weren't there times when my dad was nice? I know he loved me -- he bought me stuff and made me feel special. I literally thought of my dad as two people - good dad and bad dad. Last week it dawned on me that the gifts and special treatment were partially ways to keep me quiet and to keep me tied to him. I was devasted and very, very angry at my therapist. "I hate therapy - I lose more and more of the good dad everytime we talk about something." And yet, whose truth is it? Mine - obviously. And he didn't reframe anything I said -- I did it myself. But I think my brain has had enough of the conflict and I'm beginning to think that I didn't deserve the abuse, and in order to fully believe that, I need to view my guilt with a different lense.
Does that make any sense? I'm not going back to being a victim, I'm actually using the truth to lay the blame on the correct doorstep.
But, wow, is it painful. I'm glad I have someone to help me and declare "enough for now." I'm glad you have someone to help you too.
Posted by annierose on September 17, 2006, at 19:25:57
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
That sounds like a painful but important step! Your work is so courageous (I know, I know, I keep saying that). A lot of us in therapy are facing some truths that are scary when the lights are shined on them. Unlike a haunted house that looks just dingy and dusty in daylight but scary at night.
>>>I lose more and more of the good dad everytime we talk about something." And yet, whose truth is it? Mine - obviously. And he didn't reframe anything I said -- I did it myself.<<<<
I know this feeling exactly, except the light is shining on my husband.
Posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 19:27:56
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
Hi Daisy,
I think I gave up my "good dad" a long time ago. My dad is no longer my dad. He is someone else. He has had some brain damage that has removed big chunks of his memory. His personality changes completely every now and then. Right now he's in the "grumpy old man" phase. He is contrary to everything. He's mean and cruel, and it's easy for us to see him as bad dad, because we can blame it on his brain damage. I wish he had died. I hope he dies soon. I wish my brother had died back then too. Now he has a lovely family, but I see him as the old guy- only wearing a very durable mask. My husband has seen the mask crack though. My husband is scared for brother's wife and kids. Does she know his monsters? Does she really think that they are under control? I've decided that I may have never loved my dad. I decided that a while ago, I just didn't know why. It hurts-- knowing that a parent has lost the innocent love that children bestow so naturally. That he doesn't even deserve to live, in my opinion, well. I think he's had his tenure on this earth. He's done a lot of good things, even for me. So have many other people, but I don't love my first grade teacher, who taught me to love reading. I don't love my quartet coach, who gave me and three dear friends two years of his teaching and caring. I'm not sure that my dad has really done that much more for me than the gift of anxiety. Maybe I *should* have run away to grandma and grandpas.-ll
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 18, 2006, at 23:06:21
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » Daisym, posted by llrrrpp on September 17, 2006, at 19:27:56
I'm going to see T tomorrow. Husband thinks I can make it through this. So do I. I bought a book on trauma. I'm really really appalled. I have been so blind, for so long. My eyes are blinded from the bright light, all of a sudden. I cannot believe that all my esoteric knowledge of memory and such may have only served to help me make a barrier between "those people" and myself. The enlightened one. Ouch. This light is glaring. My ignorance and arrogance are appalling. I'm such a fraud.
-Li (also the chemical symbol for Lithium, interestingly...)
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 9:19:29
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » llrrrpp, posted by Daisym on September 17, 2006, at 18:37:59
> I'm beginning to think that I didn't deserve the abuse, and in order to fully believe that, I need to view my guilt with a different lense.
> Does that make any sense? I'm not going back to being a victim, I'm actually using the truth to lay the blame on the correct doorstep.
Yeah. I understand.
A way of alleviating guilt. Guilt and shame and embarrasment and maybe rage... Horrible feelings like that.
Is it possible... I just want to put this out there for your consideration... But is it possible... That blame is besides the point?
Posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
In reply to Re: I told my husband **child abuse trigger** » Daisym, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 9:19:29
That's a hard question because there is no real point here at all - I can't make him say he is sorry, or hold him accountable for screwing up so many things in my life.
But I can try to help myself see that the future can be different, because the common denominator of me =bad might be a faulty premise. And if the equation is faulty, then the outcome (that life will always be hard for me) might be wrong. So I need to "blame" the right person, because so far I blame myself. I need a different word - not blame, not fault, what? HIS sin, not mine?
But you are right. Blame is irrelevent in some ways, as is forgiveness. I believe that a higher power than I is the only place that forgiveness can really be given.
My therapist and I talked today about worthiness. Underneath everything, I feel worthless, not worthy of someone's caring, time or attention. Especially not someone that I care about. He kept trying to get me to define worthiness or worthlessness -- to explain why I was worthless. I finally settled on the word defective instead of worthless.
He looked so sad - but it is the truth. And I just don't know how to change it. I just know how to cover it over and hide the defect.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 20:23:27
In reply to Blame » alexandra_k, posted by daisym on September 20, 2006, at 19:40:01
((((Daisy))))
It is a hard thing :-(
I mean a really very hard thing indeed.> That's a hard question because there is no real point here at all - I can't make him say he is sorry, or hold him accountable for screwing up so many things in my life.
And even if he did say sorry it wouldn't undo anything. Even if he was held accountable it wouldn't undo anything.
> I can try to help myself see that the future can be differentYou aren't to blame. I hope you come to really see that. Not just intellectually, I really hope that you really come to see that.
> So I need to "blame" the right person, because so far I blame myself.
Maybe... Nobody is to blame. Maybe blame is besides the point in the sense that nobody is to blame. Maybe it isn't about putting the blame where it is due so much as it is about lifting the blame all around.
> I need a different word - not blame, not fault, what? HIS sin, not mine?
So somebody needs to take the blame?
Why can't the notion of blame, sin, whatever... Just be lifted? I guess it is hard when our hurts result from the actions of another. The ancients used to rail at volcanos and the like for erupting and causing devistation. I think people are more like volcanos mostly... What he did... Hurt you very much indeed :-( But I don't really understand what the notion of blame is doing except for resulting in you having contradictory feelings about loving and hating your Father. Seems to me that you can love him while still maintaining that his behaviour was very destructive for you at times, however.> But you are right. Blame is irrelevent in some ways, as is forgiveness. I believe that a higher power than I is the only place that forgiveness can really be given.
Maybe... Forgiveness is besides the point too. What is forgiveness anyway? If blame is lifted (from everyone) then what need to forgive? What could forgiveness mean?
> My therapist and I talked today about worthiness. Underneath everything, I feel worthless, not worthy of someone's caring, time or attention.And that was a consequence of what happened. That it left you feeling like that :-(
But of course that doesn't mean that was what your Father *intended* to happen.
That doesn't mean he thought that was *likely* to happen.
Maybe... He loved you the best way he knew how. Which is sad for him that he couldn't express care in a way that was more likely to leave you feeling cared about. Which is horrible for you in that you are left feeling like you are defective and incapable of being cared about.
Or maybe... He was so caught up in his own needs that he didn't see yours. Which can be hard... I am self absorbed at times :-( I understand that one too :-(
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 20, 2006, at 21:18:15
In reply to Re: Blame, posted by alexandra_k on September 20, 2006, at 20:23:27
I don't blame. Okay-- I blame Grandad, but he's long gone. Just because I don't blame my father though, doesn't mean that I cannot be angry with him for taking away some innocence of mine. I can still be angry without blame.
I guess the problem with blame is that it sets up some kind of cause-effect relationship that is very difficult to prove or even infer. It also sets up a dichotomy of the "guilty" and the "innocent" that is clearly delineated by a law. Sometimes there is not enough proof to demonstrate that a law was broken. Sometimes the laws we have aren't sufficient to explain the hurt we feel.
Anger & Hurt: these are more productive emotions than shame or guilt or blame. We do not have to sacrifice the good parts of our selves in order to feel angry or hurt. But in order to feel shame or to blame someone- we must necessarily admit that their action has changed us for the worse. I'm not sure that that admission is necessart or desirable.
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