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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Karolina on May 25, 2006, at 23:18:54
I had an appointment yesterday with him and it went well for the most part. I was kind of dressed up because I was planning to meet a friend for lunch afterwards, although usually I come to appointments very casual. We covered a lot of issues except once again his ‘nervousness’ was distracting me…he would shift around in his chair, crossing one leg, then the other, taking his pen out of his pocket and clicking it, looking down at my feet, etc…I felt like there was some sort of tension. I had on this kind of tight, light pink shirt, but I didn’t realize that my shirt was kind of sheer.
I looked later and I could see the outline of my bra, as well as my cleavage showing. Well during the session I saw him glance down once, directly at my chest as he was talking, then immediately looked up at me, I guess to see if I had seen him look. He continued talking as if he hadn’t looked, but his whole behavior was just bizarre the entire time. I tried to ignore it all, but after he has said all this stuff about me being attractive and knows I’m attracted to him, it just feels confusing. But for all I know he could have been giving compliments only to make me feel better, since I have severe body image problems and the bulimia.
But the very week before he had acted completely laid back, almost like he was about to fall asleep. I’ve been worrying lately that he doesn’t care about me anymore. I’ve been wanting to bring it up but I kind of don’t even want to get back into it. When he heard that I had to come back home from my internship because I started bingeing and purging again, as well as experimenting with drugs and alcohol, it was like he got extremely frustrated. He said he felt like he could no longer help me, that maybe I should see somebody else. That if we had been seeing each other for such a long amount of time and I still was going back to old behaviors, that I needed to see somebody else. Well easier said than done…certain things he’s said and done have caused me to be VERY attached to him and I have trouble trusting others, so starting all the way over with somebody new terrified me.
Finally after some persuasion, he’s agreed to keep seeing me. I could see his point of view and feelings in regard to me not getting enough help (he said he wasn’t an eating disorder specialist, and he was wanting to refer me to one), but it also hurt me so much that he was going to give up on me like that. even though we’ve moved on from that, I still feel hurt and worry constantly that he is only treating me because I’ve talked him into it, but that really he’s annoyed and sick of me. He doesn’t say the same kind of nice or caring things to me like he used to. I’m wondering if I should risk bringing up the past and let him know how I still feel, even though just yesterday he told me to keep coming to see him.
He has helped me so much so I want to try to work through some of this but I’m very frustrated. I don’t ‘get’ him sometimes…
Posted by madeline on May 26, 2006, at 7:30:17
In reply to frustrated with T..., posted by Karolina on May 25, 2006, at 23:18:54
Okay, a few thoughts about your situation. But my overall impression is that you need to talk to your T about the way you are feeling right now.
Usually, I think my T is thinking one thing, but as it almost always turns out, I was completely wrong and just caused myself a lot of pain - all of which could have been avoided if I had just talked to him.
Now about the attractiveness thing. I have gone round and round and round with this with my T. I have caught him looking at my breasts too. Of course I freaked out and accused him of all kinds of misconduct.
But the fact is, he is a man. And after extensive field research in this area I have determined that men like attractive women. Women have a lot of power when it comes to using our bodies to elicit a response from even the most laid back men. Therapy itself is rather sexually charged so when you combine the two, you have this elephant in the room. However, those feelings - both yours and his - can exist in the therapeutic frame and productive work can be done. It doesn't mean he is dominated by his attraction to you, it simply means that it is there. But you may need some assurance from him that he is going to absolutely maintain that therapeutic frame.
Both HIS response and YOURS should be an IMMEDIATE affirmation that both of you are going to sit in your chairs, no sexual contact of any sort will EVER happen and each of you will be responsible in your conduct. The only intimacy that will ever be shared in that room is emotional intimacy. It's the only way therapy can continue.
My therapist and I spent a lot of time establishing this very thing and we have shrunk that elephant in the room significantly, but it required a lot of talking and trust on both our parts.
Sorry this is getting so long, I guess I had a lot to say....
Now, about the eating disorder thing, I think your therapist has a point about you seeking outside treatment. However, since you have decided to stay with him, I think you have a right to ask him to become better trained in this area, perhaps it is something you both could work on together. Talk to him about this and see if he is receptive to you bringing in articles, suggesting workshops and having you take a more active role in this part of your therapy, you both could sort of "feel and learn your way" through this.
I wish you the best with this, I have been right where you are.
Posted by susan47 on May 26, 2006, at 11:41:32
In reply to Re: frustrated with T..., posted by madeline on May 26, 2006, at 7:30:17
Mmmm.
Sounds too much
like my own story
my own story
told by someone else.
Wow.
Everyone so much alike,
so many similarities,
in people.
Nothing to be ashamed of.
Not to be ashamed.
No shame.
No more shame.
Go 'way.
Go 'way go away go away go away.
I love you.
Posted by fallsfall on May 26, 2006, at 12:33:44
In reply to frustrated with T..., posted by Karolina on May 25, 2006, at 23:18:54
I had a therapist who was the world for me. She was my only hope. She held my hope.
She used to say "I have taught you all that I know", "I don't know what else to do for you". But I was pretty intense and she knew that I would completely crumble if she sent me away. I think that she was afraid of what would happen if she referred me on. *I* was afraid of what would happen if she referred me on.
In the beginning we worked together really well. I learned a lot, but I didn't really get better. I got better at tolerating how not-better I was.
Slowly the therapy deteriorated, so slowly that we didn't notice. Eventually she (and the therapy) was causing me great pain. So great that I was seriously suicidal (with intent) for the first time. I had been afraid to leave her because I knew that things would be "bad" without her. But as the therapy deteriorated and I considered ending my life, I asked myself if leaving her could be worse than the position I found myself in. I had been in therapy with her for 8 1/2 years, and I decided to find a new therapist.
I won't go into the pain of looking, choosing, leaving, starting.
3 years later, I have a different therapist. He is able to do for me what she couldn't. I have chosen a new path for my life and have returned to graduate school. We are actively working on figuring out how I can negotiate life. I have a new life.
I don't think that she was a "bad" therapist. I think that she does *what she does* well. The problem was that I needed something different. She couldn't give me what I needed. Because what I needed was different from what she knew how to give. It wasn't a good *fit*.
If your therapist says that he can't help you, that he thinks you need to see someone else, he is NOT *rejecting* you. He is acknowledging a limitation on his part. He is saying that *HE* doesn't have the right tools to help you. He is not saying that noone can help you, nor that he doesn't want to help you, nor that he thinks you don't need and deserve help. He is just saying that *HE* isn't the one who can give you that help.
My therapist was right. She taught me all that she knew. I needed to find someone who could teach me something different.
Ask your therapist to help you find someone who is really good with eating disorders. And good luck.
Posted by susan47 on May 26, 2006, at 12:37:37
In reply to Re: frustrated with T..., posted by madeline on May 26, 2006, at 7:30:17
My therapist and I never touched each other, I never even looked at him anymore, near the end .. I can't figure that one out. That one is really weird. It's like, his eyes were saying stuff his mouth wouldn't, or something ... I really feel uncomfortable, you know, with a lot of men because when they're attracted as they usually are, and you're attracted back then it's okay if it's okay but if you are and it's NOT okay, then it feels really sinful. Toooo sinful, toooo bad, and it makes things really REALLY hard when at least one of you has a hard-on for the other (read patient if you think it's pathological, client if you don't hahaha) ... and I'm not being literal here, but that is a good way of describing absolute pure lust for another human being felt both physically and psychically ... and you know you're probably seen as a bit of a freak by this person whom you completely lust after ... well, talk about an elephant in the room .. you couldn't climb the shiny sides of that pink baby even if you wanted to .. this allegorical way of speaking which confuses everyone .. a therapist is someone you can look up to ... look up, waaaayyy up ... here ...
Posted by susan47 on May 26, 2006, at 12:46:52
In reply to frustrated with T..., posted by Karolina on May 25, 2006, at 23:18:54
I was re-reading this, and I was wondering what your reaction would've been if he hadn't just glanced down, but if in addition to that, his look was a heck of a lot longer than a glance, actually more like a stare, because you're used to being looked at, let's face it ... maybe you clean up nice. But yeah, what if his eyes actually widened, what if he actually looked like a fantasy was imaging itself right there, right then, for about .. what shall we say, let's see now, "victims" usually exaggerate the amount of time something happened because it becomes so important in their minds, so if I thought he was doing this for two-point-five seconds, maybe he was only doing it for two then .. or maybe even less..
Okay. What is a "glance", anyway? Is it a widening look of open fascination displayed upon a person's face for ....? Anyway, I wonder.
Posted by susan47 on May 26, 2006, at 12:49:49
In reply to frustrated with T..., posted by Karolina on May 25, 2006, at 23:18:54
...." He said he felt like he could no longer help me, that maybe I should see somebody else. That if we had been seeing each other for such a long amount of time and I still was going back to old behaviors, that I needed to see somebody else."....
That was an awfully harsh thing to say, and doesn't say much about his image of himself as a healer, role model, or therapist. Ouch.
Posted by Racer on May 26, 2006, at 12:58:37
In reply to frustrated with T..., posted by Karolina on May 25, 2006, at 23:18:54
> I could see his point of view and feelings in regard to me not getting enough help (he said he wasn’t an eating disorder specialist, and he was wanting to refer me to one), but it also hurt me so much that he was going to give up on me like that.
Or maybe he cares about you so much he wants to make sure you get the very best treatment for something he knows he can't help you with?
Honestly -- it's so hard for ANYONE to say, "That's outside my competence." That's a real blow to one's ego, no matter how you look at it. And he's done that, which has to have been hard for him, and he's probably right -- I've got an ED, and I know that most Ts can't do much for me -- you almost certainly would get better treatment from an ED specialist.
Good luck, and I do recommend that you discuss all this with him.
Posted by orchid on May 26, 2006, at 13:16:58
In reply to frustrated with T..., posted by Karolina on May 25, 2006, at 23:18:54
I think many Ts do get atleast mildly attracted to most patients. I mean, it is part of the game, and thought most Ts won't admit it, I think it is very much there. However, I don't think that the Ts get caught up in those attractions like we do, but rather take it as a passing attraction. It is because of our projection and our revealing so much about ourselves, that we tend to extrapolate the attraction on our part into true love, and soul mates etc etc. Whereas, if we had met them in other circumstances, even for us it would have remained a passing attraction and we would have been able to let it go at that.
I have been attracted mildly to many of my colleagues, but it didn't last long enough and I didn't bother too much about it, and didn't spend all my time thinking if they liked me and if we were soul mates etc. And true to it, now that I don't see them anymore I have even forgotten all of them. I think what Ts feel for their clients is something like that.
So I am sure your T is attracted to you, but he wouldn't be making a big deal out of it.
Also, when a T says that he is not able to help you anymore, I think that is a really considered statement and he means it. You should find out someone who specializes in the problems that you have. Just like you wouldn't want to be treated by an ENT surgeon for a heart failure, so you shouldn't be treated by a therapist who is not trained to handle your particular disorder. You will end up hating your T and the therapy process in the end if you stick with him just because you like him.
Posted by susan47 on May 26, 2006, at 13:33:04
In reply to Re: frustrated with T... » Karolina, posted by orchid on May 26, 2006, at 13:16:58
Sometimes, the way things are said make all the difference in the world. Sometimes, the best of intentions can be screwed up because the tone of voice was wrong, or the timing was incorrect, or perhaps .. perhaps there's denial, huge denial and resentment that goes on at having to admit you effed up ... that this person suffered from your own incompetency and damn it .. that is a hard thing to admit.. and that this person now has to walk away, and leave your sight and vision forever, knowing that They failed You because you feel angry ...
Unable to love this person,
Even though they loved you as much as they could. So hard. To try so hard, to spill, to change, to Be Whole .. and told that "No, I whom you have looked up to for these many months, I who have entered your every thought, I who have kept you company with the visions of my face eternally written upon your mind .. I cannot help you any longer."
My god.
How much can one person bear?
The voices of harshness ... when he tells you he cannot help you, you must respect that. Toss aside the vision you had of yourself, as One who was worthy of this person .. to one who is no longer.
The dogma of reality burns like a whip ....
Please do not make it worse. Please do not make it worse.
Posted by madeline on May 26, 2006, at 13:37:17
In reply to Re: frustrated with T..., posted by susan47 on May 26, 2006, at 11:41:32
Good lord knows I have enough shame for other stuff, but I have absolutely no problem (well, anymore) with the fact that my therapist may be attracted to me and may occasionally notice what I'm wearing, or glance at my breasts.
But for me, he is a man. That's what men do. They notice women. Just because he is a psychiatrist doesn't mean he is neutered.
It hasn't spoiled anything or contaminated the space. In fact, that man has helped me more than any other person on this planet ever. I can honestly say I owe him and Larry Hoover my life.
I don't think of my therapist as role model, or a blank slate against which I write myself. He is a man, no more no less. We are two people in that room.
He IS a guide, and my most valuable asset in the journey to wholeness.
And it has taken me YEARS to get to this place and MULTIPLE discussions on how we would define this therapeutic frame, and each of our responsibilites in it.
In fact, knowing that that his attraction to me is there, but that he is controlling it has given so much more confidence around other men. He's not going to attack and you know what? Odds are they won't either. It's bizarrely soothing.
Just my thoughts on the topic.
Posted by orchid on May 26, 2006, at 13:41:45
In reply to Re: frustrated with T... » susan47, posted by madeline on May 26, 2006, at 13:37:17
I am impressed at your capacity to take it this way Madeline. And your T too for making it so helpful to you and not in the least harmful.
Posted by susan47 on May 26, 2006, at 14:29:33
In reply to Re: frustrated with T... » susan47, posted by madeline on May 26, 2006, at 13:37:17
That's nice.
Posted by happyflower on May 27, 2006, at 7:55:32
In reply to Re: frustrated with T..., posted by susan47 on May 26, 2006, at 13:33:04
I think men are men and they look and it doesn't matter what profession they are in.
I have caught my T looking at my butt, my feet, toes and stuff and I have made him blush, when I return the same look back at him. LOL
But we still have done good work together in spite of us being mutally attracted to each other.
Posted by Karolina on May 27, 2006, at 23:35:31
In reply to Re: frustrated with T..., posted by madeline on May 26, 2006, at 7:30:17
thanks madeline for your response. You're right I should definitely talk to him about how I am feeling right now.
With the attraction thing - How did your T respond when you confronted him about looking at you? I'd be curious to know how he reacted, and now I'm almost wishing I had said something to my T too when I caught him looking. The only weird thing about my situation though is - he is extremely good looking but is almost old enough to be my father. So I don't know if he could really be attracted to me or not. Because I was thinking about when he looked down at my shirt, was he instead maybe thinking 'how inappropriate for her to be wearing a shirt like that'? But we've had physical contact before too which makes everything feel even more confusing.
He also said he's been researching the topic of eating disorders and bulimia and has been talking to a colleague about the subject, so that all made me feel sort of better.
-Karolina-
Posted by Karolina on May 27, 2006, at 23:37:10
In reply to Re: frustrated with T..., posted by Karolina on May 27, 2006, at 23:35:31
sorry I meant for that post to be to madeline
Posted by Karolina on May 27, 2006, at 23:45:58
In reply to Re: frustrated with T... » Karolina, posted by fallsfall on May 26, 2006, at 12:33:44
That's an interesting point you brought up. I sometimes kind of wondered if I maybe let my personal feelings get too involved with my T and that I ended up feeling worse at times. Eventually, or actually not so far off, I have to leave home again and after that I'll probably have to say bye to this T for good. I don't want to think about ending things right now but maybe when the time comes I should look into getting a new T and see if I can find somebody with some more experience with my eating disorder. You're right, I guess he really isn't rejecting me, I'm being oversensitive about it I think. And I have to make myself understand that he really just means he doesn't have the specialized training to help me further. Thanks for your thoughts on this.
-Karolina-
Posted by Karolina on May 28, 2006, at 0:07:42
In reply to frustrated with T..., posted by Karolina on May 25, 2006, at 23:18:54
I've been trying to write back personally to everyone but I can't get it to work right tonight for some reason. SoOo...thank you also susan, racer, orchid and happyflower!!
susan - i think if he had continued to stare down instead of just glancing, I probably would have gotten really uncomfortable at first. Then as pathetic as it sounds, I probably would have felt extremely flattered and maybe asked him what he was thinking about. He does stare at me a lot, like looks directly into my eyes, even when I'm done talking, but sometimes that feels pretty intimidating, I wish I knew what he was really thinking about...
racer - it did feel harsh when he had first said that to me but you're right, it was probably hard on his part to be honest and say that he didn't feel skilled enough to help me further, I had never really thought about that before. I now think that maybe he felt kind of backed into a corner, frustrated that I came home such a mess after we had already done so much work together. Like maybe he felt responsible for all of that happening, even though he shouldn't feel that way. He did say that he just wanted what was best for me, so I hope maybe he really does care and only meant that he wanted me to get the best treatment possible.
madeline - that really is a great and healthy way to look at your situation with him. Did he openly talk about his attraction to you? Sometimes I need to talk about sexual topics with my T and would even like to bring up my feelings towards *him* but my worst fear is that he would kick me out. I wish he and I could be able to still work on these issues within the boundaries, in a healthy way like you and your T but I do worry about him freaking out and saying he couldn't handle it.
Certain things my T has done has given me the idea that he *might* be attracted to me, but what would be true signs, or how do you figure out that they are attracted? That might sound like a lame question, but I am just feeling overwhelmed by these attraction issues with him right now. It might be more intense due to the fact that my boyfriend and I recently broke up = (
thanks again you guys for your responses.
-Karolina-
Posted by susan47 on May 28, 2006, at 3:19:44
In reply to I don't know how to work this post thing sorry!, posted by Karolina on May 28, 2006, at 0:07:42
I don't know if you just think you'd be flattered or whether you would have a different reaction if it really happened and the reason is that I was soooo attracted to my T, he wasn't very much older than I was so it wasn't hard to stretch my imagination and imagine what my life could have been like with someone like him ... and idealistically I guess if I thought he were interested in me I would love that, but a look like I saw would have been really great in different circumstances, you know, but surprisingly, I was having therapy I just didn't realize how deep I was in. Hah. I hope you don't get that deep without realizing it, watch out for this guy, it doesn't sound right. I don't mean he's necessarily a bad person I just wonder if he's clumsy about getting out of a bad spot he got himself into.
This is the end of the thread.
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