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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 2:41:29
hmm.
hrm.
met her. seems nice. had a bit of a chat. talked about internet boards and memories and how i got scared about how i was feeling 'cause of stuff that came up. thought she might think i was nutso. but she took it fairly well. gave me some stuff to think to help ground me before sleep / as soon as i wake up. i haven't really done it (damn) but i should start... and the thought was nice. talked about dbt skills too and how they helped. but i don't have to do the homework card (damn i had forgotten that actually there was a lot in there i didn't like at all...). but mindfulness. maybe next time i'll ask her if she wants to do a mindfulness exercise with me.she can't fit me in for 2 weeks...
but then we will meet weekly.
she seems okay.
nice lady.
trying to help me.
someone to talk to about all this sh*t inside of me.so... somewhere to take the stuff that shouldn't be said here and stuff. goodo.
er...
i dunno.
how can seeing someone that often help?
i dunno.
need to take deep breaths. it isn't the cure. it isn't the magic cure. need to use this for good and not for f*cking myself up even more...
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 2:44:05
In reply to i got a t, posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 2:41:29
when people get mad they tend to lash out.
does that mean they intend to hurt...
or not?
is it a misdescription...
i said sometimes when i'm hurting i hurt people. and i'm not sure whether i intend to hurt other people or not... that i probably do a little...
and she looked surprised.
is that really surprising?
i thought everybody did that to a greater or lesser extent...
is the difference that mostly people say 'i never meant to hurt'
is it just a difference in description...
or is this more abnormal than i had supposed...
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 14, 2006, at 4:12:07
In reply to Re: by the way..., posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 2:44:05
I don't attempt to hurt people just because I am hurting. Well, I did when I was 14 or 15, but luckily realised that seeing others hurt didn't make me feel any better, and thus it ws a behaviour I really shouldn't continue.
And I don't see it as any excuse either, and I don't see it as acceptable behaviour. I will regret making others hurt when I did it at 15 for the rest of my life..
I wouldn't say it was abnormal though, but if you recognise it, do you think it is something you should prehaps work on? Or is hurting others something you *like*?
Nikki
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 7:51:52
In reply to Re: by the way... » Estella, posted by NikkiT2 on May 14, 2006, at 4:12:07
> I don't attempt to hurt people just because I am hurting. Well, I did when I was 14 or 15, but luckily realised that seeing others hurt didn't make me feel any better, and thus it ws a behaviour I really shouldn't continue.
seeing others hurting doesn't make me feel better. seeing others hurting... is typically what snaps me out of it. because i'm horrified by what i've done. i guess it is mostly when i think people don't realise i'm hurting... when i think people aren't getting that... when it seems like they are just trying to hurt me... or are just continuing on in hurting me... but when i realise i've hurt them... i feel horrible. i used to SI over that. to teach myself. in reperation. i guess i thought of it that way. i've learned now that SI doesn't help the situation at all so i don't do that any more. i've also learned how to refocus on other stuff to refrain from beating myself up. mostly... but it is hard...
> And I don't see it as any excuse either, and I don't see it as acceptable behaviour. I will regret making others hurt when I did it at 15 for the rest of my life..so you don't do it at all anymore?
i know it isn't acceptable behaviour...
i do regret it immensely...
and i'm sure i'll regret it for the rest of my life...what i'm really trying to figure is how to stop with it...
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 7:53:36
In reply to Re: by the way..., posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 2:44:05
but i guess your response showed me why she was surprised...
because when i say it people think it means i *like* or *enjoy* hurting others. and yeah... that would be a problem. well... i guess i should feel pleased that people would find that surprising... if they thought that was what i was trying to say...
Posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:19:56
In reply to Re: by the way..., posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 2:44:05
First of all, this is very, very good news, Estella! I'm so happy that you've found a therapist you think you can work with.
And second. No, it's not abnormal. She may have been surprised at the extent of your self-knowledge, your willingness to examine yourself and to reveal so honestly to her, especially so early on in the relationship. I think many people lash out when hurting, but I also think many people can't admit it to themselves or others. The fact that you were honest with yourself and with her, and the fact that you're already accustomed to vigorous self-examination must signal to her that you're an excellent therapy candidate, one with great potential for growth, for progress toward a greater sense of well-being.
I hope, too, that in the course of therapy you come to a see that you may exaggerate the amount of hurt you cause others. You probably hurt yourself much more deeply than you hurt other people when you think you're "lashing out".....Just my sense of you.
Good vibes, good wishes, and ((((Estella)))
hugs coming your way from,
hen
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 8:22:35
In reply to Re: by the way... » Estella, posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:19:56
thank you
oh thank youtears.
Posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:23:35
In reply to Re: by the way... » Estella, posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:19:56
You posted while I was writing mine.
Why can't I make paragraphs?
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 8:28:18
In reply to Re: by the way...Estella, posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:23:35
> You posted while I was writing mine.
it can be strange when that happens...
> Why can't I make paragraphs?hmm. have you tried hitting 'enter' twice?
;-)
how are you doing?
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 8:32:14
In reply to Re: by the way... » Estella, posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:19:56
i was trying to find a post or two because i think i've talked about this a bit over on the writing board...
one thing i said at one point (that i had forgotten)...
is that it might be about...
provoking others to hate me
because sometimes i think it is fairly inevitable that they will come to anyways
so it is a way of pushing people away
before they push me away
and about expressing hurts...
funnily enough i never used to do this when i was a teenager.
why?
because it would have brought me a week or two in my room...
but here...
well the rage of a week or two being excluded from society...
well...
the rage is coming now...
it is a lot scarey to me :-(
Posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:33:15
In reply to Re: by the way..., posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 8:22:35
We cross-posted again.
You are more than welcome. Now there are tears here, too. Oh, how I want you to feel better!
Oh, how pasionately I feel you deserve to feel better! I feel such goodness in you.....And I hope you will feel it, too. Recognize it. And embrace it. You ARE good, Estella K. You are full of goodness.hen
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 8:46:42
In reply to Re: by the way... » Estella, posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:33:15
sad...
i feel sad :-(
i need to focus on my work...
getting scared about how little i've done...
need to get into it...
the days just slip away
time has been moving so fast.
and the next two days...
are pretty much out...
tomorrow night.
must do some work tomorrow night.must go to sleep now.
have to get up in the morning
look at the map
and go fetch a bike from someones housenice to chat to you hen.
thank you.
Posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:58:50
In reply to Re: by the way..., posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 8:32:14
Yes, I understand about provoking in others the reaction you feel you provoked in, say, your mother. I don't quite understand why. Why does it feel necessary to constantly reaffirm one's mother's negative assessment? In some mysterious way is it protecting the mother? She must have been right, she must not have been a bad mother, it must have been all my fault. In what way is that safer? Well, I guess in childhood it would feel safer to accept fault than to recognize that the one person you're entirely dependent upon is F**d-up. And in some way it must seem to a child that the world makes more sense if he/she deserves the abuse. Which could feel safer. But now you are an adult, and can learn to let go of that thin thread, that weak life-line, that lie.
You did not deserve it. Your safety no longer depends upon preserving the fiction of your mother's competence or sanity. You don't need to prove mama right about you.And then there's the rage. Because another part of you DOES recognize the injustice, the abuse. And because you hurt so much. Another part of you does know you don't deserve to hurt this much, and you didn't deserve to hurt so much as a child. Rage is NORMAL. A stage in the process. Probably a necessary stage. But I think one can move beyond it, mitigate it.
But I know you've done a lot of reading and thinking and you know all this and more.... I'm just babbling.
For some reason I never go to the writing board. I should.
Now my wrist is killing me and I need to stop. (Incipient carpal tunnel, I diagnose.)
Love, hen
Posted by ClearSkies on May 14, 2006, at 9:42:26
In reply to i got a t, posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 2:41:29
Oh, I'm glad that you found a T - I hope that she's helpful for you!! Just having a warm body IRL who will sit and listen to me is all I need, sometimes. It's quite a relief.
ClearSkies
Posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 12:20:11
In reply to Re: by the way... » Estella, posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 8:58:50
And then, of course, there's repetition compulsion.....
And then, of course, there are many wrong trees for me to bark up...hen
Posted by James K on May 14, 2006, at 15:58:05
In reply to Re: by the way... » henrietta, posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 12:20:11
I'm glad to hear you got a t. I'm really trying to convince myself to do same while I'm still have some recovery impetus left.
I think about the lashing out part, I for one intend to hurt people when I lash out. This is part of a sickness or poor coping mechanism that I don't feel is a correct way to behave, so please don't take as me thinking it's a good thing.
I think I have a talent for detecting the thing that would hurt the most, and when I feel someone doesn't think I'm a human worthy of respect or consideration, I attempt to make them feel the same way. When I turn it on a good, innocent, or loved person, I can feel guilt and attempt to reverse what I just did. When I do it to a stranger, I tend to feel justified. I've been accused of dehumanizing people in order to abuse them physically or verbally. I've also been acused of dehumanizing myself in the same way. It happened to me as a child, so I do it to others, because I know how, I know it works, I know how it feels. I do it to myself to desensitize myself from feeling anything further.
Those are the kind of insights I've gotten in the small amount of therapy I've had this year, and they've given me food for thought and visions of a path toward change.
I hope she's a good t, sounds like it so far.
James k
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 18:54:25
In reply to Re: by the way... » henrietta, posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 12:20:11
i think it is hard. you would figure your parents would love you if anyone could. 'cause i was just a baby. i couldn't have been that offensive - could i? i guess i could... i don't know. i think sometimes one just grows up thinking that ones parents... saw that something was wrong. and something is wrong. and it is something so basic and fundamental. i mean i didn't have to say or do anything exactly. and they noticed. so one just grows up thinking that something must be badly wrong. i don't know. i kind of knew other people lived very different lives to me. i'm not sure why there is a tendancy to blame oneself. maybe it is about... if i felt mad at my mother she would only hit me harder / shut me away. so i learned to numb my feelings in front of her as much as possible. i couldn't feel mad at her. it would have only made things worse for me. so i guess in blaming oneself... well sadness... one just gets quiet and withdraws. and i guess that was what she wanted anyway. for me not to exist.
> And then, of course, there's repetition compulsion.....
i haven't heard of that...
i don't know what it is...
combination of lots of things probably...
thanks.
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 18:57:03
In reply to Re: i got a t » Estella, posted by ClearSkies on May 14, 2006, at 9:42:26
> Oh, I'm glad that you found a T
thank you.
> - I hope that she's helpful for you!! Just having a warm body IRL who will sit and listen to me is all I need, sometimes. It's quite a relief.
yeah. she is nice. it helped just to talk to her. i was worried that it would get me ruminating worse... but it didn't seem to. i felt quite happy afterwards. managed to do some work and all.
need to keep it in my sights that my top priority is getting through my study okay. top priority. all the other stuff... all the other sh*t is secondary to getting me through my study okay. so yeah. someone nice to talk to. and talk i did... unbelievable. normally... i go really quiet. but i had so much to say...
thank you.
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 19:09:03
In reply to Re: by the way..., posted by James K on May 14, 2006, at 15:58:05
> I'm glad to hear you got a t.
thank you.
> I'm really trying to convince myself to do same while I'm still have some recovery impetus left.
yeah. if you can get one that would probably be good. someone to chat to irl...
> I think about the lashing out part, I for one intend to hurt people when I lash out. This is part of a sickness or poor coping mechanism that I don't feel is a correct way to behave, so please don't take as me thinking it's a good thing.i understand.
> I think I have a talent for detecting the thing that would hurt the most, and when I feel someone doesn't think I'm a human worthy of respect or consideration, I attempt to make them feel the same way.yes. me too.
> When I turn it on a good, innocent, or loved person, I can feel guilt and attempt to reverse what I just did.
yeah. i understand.
> I've been accused of dehumanizing people in order to abuse them physically or verbally.
hmm... i don't know that that is the most helpful way to look at it...
> I've also been acused of dehumanizing myself in the same way. It happened to me as a child, so I do it to others, because I know how, I know it works, I know how it feels. I do it to myself to desensitize myself from feeling anything further.
i don't know. it makes sense what you said about sometimes feeling like people don't see you / take you seriously as a person.
i think i do it to myself too. do desensitise myself from my mother's words. to toughen me up or something. i can get into some horrible head circles when i'm feeling bad.
but i guess it is like a defensive strike. always had to mask my emotions around my mother... otherwise she could figure my worst fears and use them to torment / mock me.
i don't know.
i'm glad you understand. but i'm sorry you have this difficulty too
:-(
Posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 20:04:17
In reply to Re: by the way... » henrietta, posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 18:54:25
NO, you couldn't be offensive as a baby. No baby can be offensive. YOU were not offensive. You were an entirely loveable, helpless being, entering into this world through no action or desire of your own. You had no part in being born.
It is how you were received that is offensive. It is what was done to you that is offensive.
I imagine that mothers who are unable to love their newborn creatures must feel incredible guilt and sadness (and I imagine they, too, suffered as newborns). I imagine the guilt can turn toward the child, to blame, deflecting the guilt,
blaming the child for the parent's inability to feel what he/she is told, and knows in his/her deepest being, is what in an ideal situation he/she would be/should be feeling. And most likely wants to be feeling.C*%P, I'm so muddled.....expressing myself in such a muddled fashion.
Sorry.
Repetition compulsion=a compulsion to repeatedly(^) repeat a psychically damaging dynamic , recreate it, that is, in the hope of working it through this time to a healthy conclusion. Badly put. Very badly put. Recreating a situation in the hope of achieving a healthier outcome. Badly put again. Repeating it in the hope that someone will respond appropriately to your needs. ???
I'm sorry I'm not at the moment as clear as I'd like to be. I'm just compulsively repeating the same garbled ghump. %}
Time to throw in the towel and clean the kitchen.
XXO hen
Posted by Estella on May 14, 2006, at 22:53:09
In reply to Re: by the way...Estella, posted by henrietta on May 14, 2006, at 20:04:17
> Repetition compulsion=a compulsion to repeatedly(^) repeat a psychically damaging dynamic , recreate it, that is, in the hope of working it through this time to a healthy conclusion.
ah. i get what you mean.
yeah. that has occured to me too...
thank you.
This is the end of the thread.
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