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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fairywings on April 27, 2006, at 12:49:49
I know it's a huge question...but how do you heal anger and bitterness?
It surprised me, but my T said, with good reason I was bitter. I never thought of myself as bitter - angry yes, bitter no. He's told me I have to bury my past and move on, and certain things I have to just wipe from my memory banks. Good advice....but how?! Seems to me an awful lot like my husband telling me to "let it go - it's in the past". I've been in therapy 8 months. If I should just be able to move on, why would I need therapy?
It hurts to be told basically, "just get over it already". But, if anyone knows how to heal bitterness, I'd sure give it a try, I'd like to move on....but wipe things from my memory banks...I don't know about that one.
Thanks,
fairywings
Posted by Racer on April 27, 2006, at 13:45:24
In reply to Anger and bitterness, posted by fairywings on April 27, 2006, at 12:49:49
You can't wipe it out of your memory. You'll just have to go through it and get to the other side.
I don't know how to do that, though.
SOmething similar came up yesterday in my session, though, with my T giving the exact opposite comment: "This will always be a part of you, so we have to create ways to counter it." I don't know how that's done, beyond the usual countering it with better thoughts, using better coping strategies, etc.
How that applies to bitterness, though, I can only guess.
My guess, though, is that it would include letting go of the present anger. To me, bitterness kinda implies that you're holding on to the anger until its target rights the perceived wrong. That's not quite what I mean, but it might be close enough. I think, anyway, that to get over bitterness, you kinda have to accept that people [anglo saxon word that's not allowed here] up in your past, that you were damaged by it, that they'll never be able to empathize and therefore will never apologize, be angry with them for those failures, and then grieve for those losses. I think that's probably at least part of what has to happen to let go of bitterness.
I hope that's helpful.
Posted by curtm on April 27, 2006, at 14:35:37
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness, posted by Racer on April 27, 2006, at 13:45:24
Bitter, angry, spiteful, vindicative, defensive, belligerent, inciteful, unforgiving... These are words words I live by, unless I am deep in self-pity, sorrow, distress, hopelesslessness,...
I'm 36 yrs. old and I have never forgotten or forgiven anyone who ever crossed me. I still remember the kid that chipped my tooth in 2nd grade when he hit me in the mouth. I remember the kid that told on me for saying a bad word in 3rd grade. I remember the girl that kicked me in the n*ds in 4th grade. The list goes on and on. My feelings of animosity toward them never fade.
Why should I let it go? I feel I should hold that until someday I get the chance to return the "favor."
I know this hasn't been positive or helpful to anyone and is purely self-descriptive (how selfish.)
Posted by fairywings on April 27, 2006, at 15:06:46
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness, posted by Racer on April 27, 2006, at 13:45:24
Thanks Racer,
I didn't think I could "wipe it out"....I thought it was okay to work "through it", but I haven't felt that way with either T. My current T says... on the one hand, "it's okay to be where ever you are with things"...but on the other he says I have to "move on". He's not cognitive - and I don't find it helpful when I'm so hurt by things, to just try to "reframe it" - as he says.
How long have you worked with this T? I can't remember....the comments she made sound more helpful...more realistic.
Yeah, I do hold on to anger....but only for "big" stuff. I think you're right, maybe instead of journaling about how hurt I am, or how I'm thinking, I need to try to see things from their side, or put their life in perspective.
Thanks, it was very helpful.
fwbtw, math is going pretty well! ; ) thanks!
Posted by ClearSkies on April 27, 2006, at 16:40:50
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » Racer, posted by fairywings on April 27, 2006, at 15:06:46
Hi there, FW
I struggle a lot with the residuals. Hate, hurt, pain, loss, lots of it. My T does not want me to get over it, or wish it away. Or, not to give it too much importance. (That's so hard!!)
But instead, she wants me to notice. How do I feel when something is happening? How does my body feel? Not change anything, but just notice it.
What exactly am I feeling?
Hurt - about what?
Shame - about what?
Anger - about what?Try it
Let me know how you feel.
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 27, 2006, at 16:58:36
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » Racer, posted by fairywings on April 27, 2006, at 15:06:46
My T and I agree with Racer and her T. My T has said the same kind of thing to me -- that my experiences will always be part of me but that I have to learn how to manage them and work with them.
Here's one of the ways I try to think about it: I have a young friend with Down Syndrome. He has had lots of surgeries and other challenges in his life. He is an excellent example of someone who thrives not IN SPITE of his challenges but BECAUSE of them. Does that make sense?
Posted by happyflower on April 27, 2006, at 19:50:31
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » fairywings, posted by TherapyGirl on April 27, 2006, at 16:58:36
>
> Here's one of the ways I try to think about it: I have a young friend with Down Syndrome. He has had lots of surgeries and other challenges in his life. He is an excellent example of someone who thrives not IN SPITE of his challenges but BECAUSE of them. Does that make sense?This makes a lot of sense to me because I think people who have had the most tragic in their lives , will treasure their life more. I just started reading two very good books, The Beethoven Factor, by Paul Pearsall and Perfect Love Imperfect Relationships by John Welwood. They are both so good and really "hit home" with me and my experiences, plus they give me a lot of hope. Another good one I just finished was The Power of Purpose, by Peter S. Temes. Maybe I am at a point of my life where these books are inspiring me and making me think differently. I don't know, but it is keeping me reading and thinking a lot about my life.
I don't think with pasts like ours, FW, that we can forget it all. But we just need to learn to how to live with it. I really wish you could look into EMDR. I think it would help sooo much in making the memories less intense.
I just hate it when someone says to just get over it. If you could you would. Right?
(((((((Fairywings)))))))))))))))))
Posted by fairywings on April 28, 2006, at 9:43:17
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » Racer, posted by curtm on April 27, 2006, at 14:35:37
Hi Curt,I don't think your post was selfish - it was really honest! Seems to me, some of us remember this kind of stuff, and others...like my husband, remember none of it. Maybe it's because of the way we grew up...the way we learned to think about things. I don't know.
My brother is the same way you described...he doesn't forget a thing - he was abused by my dad from a very early age...made him very cynical.
fw
Posted by curtm on April 28, 2006, at 9:53:00
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » curtm, posted by fairywings on April 28, 2006, at 9:43:17
Funny you should mention your hub. I sometimes wonder if my wife is selectively forgetful or just plain amneonic. Sometimes she can't remember what I said a few days ago, but she thinks I am supposed to remember what she said. lol
Posted by Daisym on April 28, 2006, at 10:34:45
In reply to Anger and bitterness, posted by fairywings on April 27, 2006, at 12:49:49
I have too much experience living with bitterness and it is the one thing I hope to truly never be. For me, I think of it as a hardened form of self-pity that gets globalized to all things in someone's life. It isn't an active state, but rather a way of existing within one's world. There is no grace or acceptance -- not be confused with approval. Just because you accept that something happened to you doesn't mean you approve of it, or embrace it.
I can't imagine you are bitter, based on what I know about you.
Being angry, on the other hand, is a very active emotional place. You might get stuck in this place but anger can give you clarity and motivation for change. The trick is to channel it in the right direction and not back inward at one's self.
I have a hard time with the concept of working through because to me that sounds like you finally do "put it all away" and are done with it. My therapist has recently started to talk to me about developing a relationship to the events in my life and the very different parts of me. This is a concept I can understand. Will I have a positive relationship with the memories of abuse? No. But I think figuring out how to deal with the memories is critical and the context of a relationship suggests something that will ebb and flow but that there will be familiarity...so I can think, "oh right, this is why I feel this way." Having a relationship to the events in my life also means owning them, and allowing myself to see the influence they've had on my choices. I so wanted to be "untouched" by my childhood -- as someone else said, "in spite of" -- not because of. But instead I'm Captain Kirk -- "my pain makes me who I am" and I'm beginning to see that. But it isn't all of me, it is only some of the experiences I've had. I can't reject those experiences without rejecting parts of me.
This is my really long winded way of saying that I don't think you can ever forget what happened to you but that if you develop a relationship to it, you take charge of it -- your memories, your feelings and your unconscious responses -- and you begin to feel more in charge of yourself. That doesn't mean that you aren't angry or sad when you think about the past...it means that you don't project that past anger on present events. Those events get their own justifiable response. And I think with this work comes a certain relief in trusting your responses -- you know what is old so you aren't always guarding against yourself. Does that make any sense?
I think it sometimes comes down to therapeutic orientation. Some therapists believe in talking about trauma until you don't need to anymore. Others want you to try to move past it and look at "just" the influence on your current life, how you are reacting to current stressors. But I always think it is appropriate to say, "when you say X, I feel Y" because it is totally possible that your interpretation of his words is not what he intended. This I do ALL the time. I learn a lot when I check it out.
Mostly I want to say I'm sorry you are having such a hard time.
Lv and hugs,
Daisy
Posted by fairywings on April 28, 2006, at 13:55:54
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » fairywings, posted by ClearSkies on April 27, 2006, at 16:40:50
Hi CS,
Thanks for sharing this with me. You're lucky to have a T that makes you feel okay with where ever you are with your feelings. My ex T told me eventually I had to quit whining - after I'd seen him maybe 6 or 7 times. This T tells me I have to find a way to bury it. My husband tells me to "let it go".
I'll try to be more mindful...but then what do I do with it? I know what I feel hurt, shame, and anger about. I just don't know how to deal with it so that I function better. I think he has opened my eyes to some things, but after 8 months, I'm just not ready to put it all behind me and move on. I don't feel like I've dealt with it.
I've told him most of my worst stuff, so there's no way I want to start over. I hate this, I wish I could take it all back!
Thanks again CS,
fw
Posted by fairywings on April 28, 2006, at 14:01:14
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » fairywings, posted by TherapyGirl on April 27, 2006, at 16:58:36
Yeah it does make sense TG, thanks. When I can put things in perspective, I know my problems are miniscule compared to .... well even any of my siblings. I feel like I"m wallowing in self pity. I feel pretty self indulgent, and guilty, and like I'm pathetic, and wasting my T's time, and wasting my life. What a stupid thing to do.
But when I feel my heart sinking, and even sunny days can't inspire me to move, I don't have much perspective. I guess I should be around people - volunteer - with people who are less fortunate... and then I would be more grateful.Thanks,
fw
Posted by fairywings on April 28, 2006, at 14:05:55
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness (Fairy wings) » TherapyGirl, posted by happyflower on April 27, 2006, at 19:50:31
Hi HF,
You have been able to come so far.....I guess I should put my nose in some of those books. I read Mood Therapy, and hated it. But I have enjoyed some of the other positive thinking books, just not lately.....
I know I really need to learn how to live with it, to deal with it, and I think I'll tell my T I want to be referred to someone who does EMDR. I guess it's time.
Thanks,
fw
Posted by fairywings on April 28, 2006, at 14:08:48
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » fairywings, posted by curtm on April 28, 2006, at 9:53:00
That's too funny .... coincidental funny...not ha ha funny. My husband and I had a conversation 2 weeks ago at 2 in the afternoon. We made plans - he suggested them - but when he got home, at 6, he didn't remember the conversation at all. He remembered talking with me, but not what we'd said. I was too mad to remind him.
fw
Posted by TherapyGirl on April 28, 2006, at 14:47:06
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » TherapyGirl, posted by fairywings on April 28, 2006, at 14:01:14
Fairywings, I just want you to know that I really was not suggesting that you were wallowing or had it easier than anyone else. Really, really not suggesting that.
What I was suggesting is that none of us can completely erase the damage caused by our pasts -- so we are left to try to manage it the best we can and triumph the best we can. It's a lifetime experience for me, but maybe I'll get there in the end.
Posted by fairywings on April 28, 2006, at 15:51:40
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness » fairywings, posted by Daisym on April 28, 2006, at 10:34:45
I surely never wanted to become bitter, I lived with it too. It relieved me so much when you said you couldn't imagine I was bitter based on what you know. I was so worried that I am bitter.
I know I'm angry, but it seems like my anger has me stuck right now. Hardened self-pity sounds awful...I don't think I feel sorry for myself, I think I mostly don't want to be like people in my past. I accept a lot of things, but others I'm having trouble .... hmmm...not trouble accepting, but being okay with. I just don't think I'm ready, and I feel like I"m being pressured to accept what happened as "ancient history."
I guess I'm not channeling my anger, sometimes it comes out as self loathing, but mostly with my T, not with other people. I figured that was the one place it should be okay to vent that, but now it doesn't feel safe to vent it, or hold on to much of anything for more than one appt. When I feel bad, he says at the end, well how do you feel about such and such now? As if it should be all better. I feel like I have to let go of it.
I don't think I can put it away, but I think given time I can accept it and move on. I've accepted my dad's behavior, but I'm having a lot of trouble with the mother part of it, and some of the things from my teen years. I had been dealing with it just fine till about 3 years ago when I had post partum depression. I got through that, and then it creeped up on me again about a year ago. It's gotten worse since Jan., and I guess it's coming out as cynicism and bitterness, but mostly I'm just hurt, and now I'm hurt that he called me bitter.
I"m not sure I completely understand having a relationship to it. I do need to learn to deal with the memories and emotions...and sometimes lack of emotion. Unfortunately, right now, my choices have been very poor - isolating, dwelling, and I am very guarded .... maybe, like you're saying, understanding the pain as making me who I am, trying to be better than I am right now, and more in charge of myself, is a good way to approach it. I'm not sure therapy is helping me feel better about who I am though.
His orientation must be more about moving past it. I just don't feel ready. But I will check with him when he's trying to "reframe" things because there have been times when I've taken what he says wrong. I feel pressured, maybe he doesn't intend to pressure me. Maybe by telling me I sound angry and bitter he was challenging me to give it up.
Thanks for your insight daisy, I always find it really helpful.
fw
Posted by fairywings on April 28, 2006, at 19:28:49
In reply to Re: Anger and bitterness, posted by TherapyGirl on April 28, 2006, at 14:47:06
No, no, no TG! I didn't think you were suggesting that at all - really. I think sometimes when I hear what I don't want to hear, I start to either get mad, or feel sorry for myself. I think after the other day I was feeling sorry for myself. Then I realized he said the worst thing anyone could say to me...that I was angry and bitter. That's my mom, I never wanted to be my mom!
Now I have to decide do I want to be my mom, or do I want to .... like daisy was saying use the anger or hurt to challenge myself to be better than I am now. And I have to decide whether I want to continue with this T because I don't like to be hurt. And I think if I continue with him, maybe it will keep me circling self pity instead of dealing with it the best I know how.
Thanks for what you said, I'm sorry I sounded sarcastic...if that's how I sounded. I was serious....I have to quit self pity.
fw
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