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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 20 to 44 of 46. Go back in thread:
Posted by one woman cine on April 20, 2006, at 8:57:43
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » one woman cine, posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 8:42:06
This what Daisy said,
***This issue was brought up before by someone who said she was the significant other of a therapist. I took her posts into therapy with me, because essentially she said we should all be ashamed of ourselves and get a life. My therapist said she had no right to speak for others and that most therapists, and their spouses, know this is part of the package.****
Sorry happyflower, but is certainly NOT general terms, this is someone specific. No, she specifically said *she* and made various allusions to what I said previously. If that's not the case, I'd like to know the *she* daisy is referring to. I'm sure Daisy is a great person, but her post *paraphrasing* (a particular poster, me - in this case) my statements is extremely unkind and uncivil.
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2006, at 9:05:11
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by daisym on April 19, 2006, at 16:32:43
> I took her posts into therapy with me, because essentially she said we should all be ashamed of ourselves and get a life. My therapist said she had no right to speak for others...
Hi Daisy. Former posters are covered by the same civility guidelines as current posters, and so I'm going to have to ask you to please be sensitive to the feelings of other posters even if yours are hurt and to not post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to reverse or adjust deputy decisions as he sees fit. If you wish to contact him directly, his email is on the bottom of each page.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on April 20, 2006, at 9:09:28
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » daisym, posted by one woman cine on April 20, 2006, at 7:56:49
> Just for the record, Daisym - I feel your statements are inflammatory towards me and my previous postings ...
> Perhaps that is something that you should bring up to your therapist instead of judging me, which your post MOST certainly does.
>I'm going to have to ask you to please follow the civility guidelines, which ask that you please be sensitive to the feelings of other posters even if yours are hurt. And please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to reverse or adjust deputy decisions as he sees fit. If you wish to contact him directly, his email is on the bottom of each page.
Dinah, acting as deputy for Dr. Bob
Posted by zazenduck on April 20, 2006, at 9:17:57
In reply to Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by orchid on April 19, 2006, at 13:11:37
http://www.shirleyglass.com/quizfriendship.php
Therapy does sound like an emotional affair doesn't it? Even if it isn't meant to be. I think an emotional affair would hurt me more than a physical one. (Although that would be a relationship ender too.)I also think most therapists share more of themselves in therapy than some might think. Even listening to intimate secrets and responding in a certain way is revealing of the therapists inner self I think. And I just don't think intimacy is something you can share with an unlimited number of people without diminishing it.
Posted by happyflower on April 20, 2006, at 9:36:51
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by zazenduck on April 20, 2006, at 9:17:57
I kinda agree. Therapy isn't being taken place in a bubble. It still involves 2 people both with pasts, and futures. It is a give and take. Nobody knows what really goes on in the room between the two people except the 2 people. Even then it is each person perception of what is going on.
I believe good therapy is an intimacy between two people. Even though there are boundries, feelings are flowing both ways. And some of those feeling are love and caring.
If my DH was a T , it would be tough I think knowing he so much to others, but in a way it is a compliment too.
A month ago I was telling my T I felt like such a fraud. I have been sort of mentoring some younger people and giving them love advice. I am like I know I am giving good advice, but I feel so fake because my love life is so much in trouble.
My T said that people are seeing the good stuff in you and feel that you can give offer good advice. A lot of T's have had or is having a very troubled life, but they can still be great T's. My T said a cardiogist can still be a good doctor even thought he might have heart trouble too. I guess I got off the subject here. sorry
Posted by orchid on April 20, 2006, at 13:14:02
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » orchid, posted by Daisym on April 20, 2006, at 3:11:31
The truth is, it is about my feelings that I expressed.
I am not a T to stick to one particular idea all the time and take one particular stance. I am also a patient, and my idea of attachment and feelings towards therapists keep varying.
Some days I think it is perfectly allright, and it is the way it should be and ought to be, and it is best to go through it and come out on the other end.
The other days, like yesterday, I felt so horrible for having been attached to another married man (just as many of us here have felt at one time or the other). And thought of how I would feel if I was a T's wife, and how I would feel if my husband had to share many intimate secrets to another woman and get attached to her and not me - and it didn't feel very good at all. I felt horrible *about myself* for having done what I did.
Maybe it wasn't rational, or even correct, but I felt really horrible and bad yesterday, about myself, and the tone in my post expressed these feelings. I didn't even think of you and happyflower or others here in the same situation. The question was to all of us here only as an extrapolation, but most of all, I was speaking of myself and my husband and my T and my T's wife. I didn't say you all should apologize. I said I should. It wasn't any disguised attempt to ridicule or hurt anyone's feelings. How can you believe that I would do such a thing after seeing me here for such a long time? Sometimes I do say things little bluntly, but that mostly comes out before even I have a chance to correct myself. Honestly, what prompted above post was after reading Fairywings post above, and I wrote my post in an instant, without giving too much thought or trying to make it sensitive or be polite. I felt so repulsive of myself for having ever been in a position of Fairywing's husband's colleague, (though my situation was with a T, and it was quite appropriate at afterthought, at that moment, I didn't differentiate it). And I didn't remember either you or happyflower when I wrote that post. Maybe I should have, but it just didn't occur to me.
I have said before, and I will say it again, it wasn't meant to hurt you or HappyFlower. It honestly wasn't.
It was a controversial and provoking post, I agree - but that doesn't mean it was a mean and disguised attempt to hurt anyone's feelings. In fact, only after I read your reply, did it even occur to me that my post could hurt someone, and I added the trigger immediately afterwards.
Posted by Tamar on April 25, 2006, at 20:30:02
In reply to Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby, posted by orchid on April 19, 2006, at 13:11:37
I think this is never going to be an easy thing to discuss!
I’m not sure how I’d feel if my husband were a therapist, but I do know that he sometimes has close emotional relationships with the women he works with. And as long as those relationships are not a threat to my marriage I don’t feel jealous. If I ever thought there was any danger to my marriage I’d probably be quite upset! But I know for a fact that my husband is attracted to some of his female friends and colleagues. And I know that some of them are attracted to him. It doesn’t mean he wants to be unfaithful; it doesn’t mean they want to take him away from me. It’s just the way biology works. And also: wishing to be someone’s lover is a completely different thing from acting on that wish (and usually the fantasy is much better than the reality!).
I wouldn’t worry too much about my husband going to a female therapist because I’ve read that transference tends to work rather differently when the woman is the therapist and the man is the client.
I think it’s important to remember the symbolic aspect of many of those feelings. That’s why they’re healthy: they tell you something about what you’re missing in life. If I love my therapist because I imagine he’s romantic and emotionally articulate, then maybe I feel a lack of romance and emotional connectedness in my marriage. I can’t get what I want from my therapist but he can help me try to figure out how to live with what I’ve got, or how to make changes to make my relationship better.
I don’t think you owe anyone an apology. Your feelings for your therapist are necessary in order for you to be able to explore the possibilities of change in your life. Your feelings don’t harm your therapist or his wife, and they don’t harm your husband. In fact, as you are able to work through them, you may find that the experience actually improves your marriage by helping you to understand better what you want from your relationship.
And (since a certain previous discussion has already been alluded to) I still feel quite strongly about some of the ideas that came up in one woman cine’s thread. And I still believe (as I said in that thread) that it’s not helpful for clients to worry about the feelings of their therapist’s partner. The therapeutic boundaries are supposed to keep the relationship from developing into something more conventionally sexualised, and the advantage is that it should be possible to be much more open than in normal social situations. Well, that’s my two cents anyway.
I hope you won’t beat yourself up too much about your feelings for your therapist. If you can work with them instead of against them you might find them ultimately useful.
Tamar
Posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 7:48:40
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » orchid, posted by Tamar on April 25, 2006, at 20:30:02
Tamar,
I really liked your post and I think you've hit the nail on the head. I do think feelings are useful and no matter what they are, are not harmful & can actually serve both parties in the therapeutic process. I think I said as much in my previous thread. However, I'm worried that what I did say has lead to hard feelings and misconstruction of my words and what I was conveying. I don't think its ever the clients'/patients problem as to anyone's feelings except their own. Everyone in that process is responsible for themselves, including the therapist. I am in therapy so I am no stranger to transference either. My only point of contention is when the therapy spills out of the the therapeutic space (whatever the agreed upon space is, by the way) and intrudes upon mine. I don't think that's wrong of me to feel upset (not to mentioned alarmed), when a patient decides(?) to transgress the therapeutic boundaries and intrude upon the personal life of the therapist et al. I don't think it happens often, but trust me - it happens. I think if anyone here was stalked, people here would empathize with that. But because I was stalked by a patient - no one really cares & it seems like it's OK for that to happen. It's absolutely not. Does this mean I'm condemning patients? Absolutely not, but I am justifiably upset when it happens. It seems like it's OK because a patient is curious, to call their therapists home phone number, to follow them, etc etc. & I think therapy is unique, but so are alot of things, it doesn't give anyone the right to invade someone's privacy. I would just like a little slack for some traumatic events that have happened to me, but I don't seem to get it. Instead, I'm feel as if I'm being raked over the coals for just trying to defend myself and my personal space - which every person has a right to. Enough said.
Posted by madeline on April 26, 2006, at 8:14:07
In reply to Thank you Tamar, posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 7:48:40
Being stalked must be terrifying, no doubt. I would be livid if someone did that to me.
Therefore, one does have to wonder, however, why you chose this board to express those feelings.
Was it to warn people that this actually does happen?
Was it misdirected anger at the posters here? None of whom have crossed the therapeutic boundary, in fact, this board probably keeps a lot of people from doing just that.
Was it that you wanted to strike back and the people that hurt you?
Was it that you thought people here would provide the best support for what you were going through?
I wasn't around during the original posts, but obviously your posts triggered a lot of emotional responses from people and all I am asking is "why here?"
Posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 8:34:44
In reply to Re: Thank you Tamar » one woman cine, posted by madeline on April 26, 2006, at 8:14:07
I don't know, are you asking me to justify why I was here? Does anyone else have to do that? I think you should read my orginal introduction - I was here for my own difficulties in therapy - I feel like you are jumping to conclusions about me. I'm not sure what your implying - maybe you can clarify it? & unless I'm off base, I don't think it was ever wrong to give another perspective.
Posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 8:38:05
In reply to Re: Thank you Tamar » one woman cine, posted by madeline on April 26, 2006, at 8:14:07
People have difficulties with many topics, but still express them here - like rape, SI, csa - does that mean they shouldn't post it because others here may have trouble with it? I'm not sure what your asking "why I chose this board"? I chose this board because no one here is censored and it was something I had an opinion about.
Posted by Tamar on April 26, 2006, at 9:13:43
In reply to Thank you Tamar, posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 7:48:40
Hi one woman cine,
Thanks for your reply. I’m very sorry you were stalked. I’ve heard it’s a very violating experience and very frightening. And it must feel very strange to know that you show up in the dreams and fantasies of people you’ve never met, just because your partner is treating them. I can imagine it would make you feel uneasy, especially when some of these people intrude into your private space. I don’t want to minimise that at all; of course you are alarmed when that happens.
I think it must be very complicated being the partner of a therapist because of course she knows all these clients and all their stories and perhaps can understand what’s going on in their minds when they phone your home, but of course you don’t have that knowledge of them. You’re a little removed from the situation. So I imagine it must be harder for you to handle than for your partner. And being stalked by someone you don’t know, but who has some kind of emotional attachment to your partner, must be devastating.
I can’t speak for anyone else here, but I’ll admit that I’m very curious about my therapist’s partner. I imagine her as a very interesting, intelligent and sweet person, because I want my therapist to have a partner who is good for him. If I saw them together in a mall or something I suspect the temptation to follow them for a little while would be overwhelming. I want to know something about her because she’s so important to him. I don’t want to steal him away from her, and I don’t want to hurt either of them, but my curiosity is sometimes profound. I know their home phone number (I found it on google) but I can’t imagine ever calling. But on the other hand, I think I’d find it difficult to make a promise that I’d never ever call. I hope I will never call. I hope I will always be able to persuade myself that calling would be wrong and intrusive. But I also know my dark side. I would like to be a good person, but sometimes I do bad things. I’m not proud of it, but I know I can’t ever promise to be completely good.
And I guess that’s the grey area into which this discussion inevitably falls. It’s hard to distinguish between boundaries around feelings and boundaries around action. It’s hard to understand how feelings of love can be useful and healthy but that those feelings can only be appropriately expressed within certain limits. It seems almost paradoxical to me that I’m allowed to love my therapist but I’m not allowed to phone him at home or hug him or buy him a book. When I think about the limits, it feels as though my desires must be bad; as if my feelings of love must be bad. And I feel bad and disgusting for wanting things that he doesn’t seem to want. And although my rational side understands the necessity of boundaries, my emotional side finds it incredibly hurtful. At the same time I want so desperately to believe that he loves me as much as I love him; that he’d be pleased to hear from me if I phoned him, or pleased to see me at the mall or whatever. I want to believe that I’m loveable to him. I want to believe he’d always be happy to see me, in any circumstances. It’s hard to believe that the love that we do in therapy can’t be replicated outside his office.
No one should stalk you. And no one should intrude into your private life. Unfortunately, it’s probably inevitable that some clients won’t be able to control their impulses. That doesn’t make it OK for them to phone you at home or follow you. I don’t know how other partners of therapists deal with that. Ideally clients would deal with it by exploring their desires and wishes in therapy. But the shame involved makes it so hard to address. I wish there were an easy solution.
Tamar
Posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 9:30:08
In reply to Re: Thank you Tamar » one woman cine, posted by Tamar on April 26, 2006, at 9:13:43
I just want to say as well, the majority of patients do not do the aforementioned behavior.I appreciate your post and can imagine your therapist is lucky to have a patient as warm and insightful as yourself. It is a grey area, and I can appreciate the complexity of what your saying - natural curiouslty is one thing (& aren't we all curious?) but crossing a boundary is something else. Thanks for understanding what I was trying to say, without any judgement.
Posted by orchid on April 26, 2006, at 19:33:50
In reply to Re: Pls read: hubby goes to female T/T is your hubby » orchid, posted by Tamar on April 25, 2006, at 20:30:02
Thanks Tamar.
I really liked the analogy of the relationship being symbolic.
I think that one word really says it all :-)
Good choice of words.
Orchid
Posted by happyflower on April 26, 2006, at 20:05:44
In reply to Re: Thank you Tamar » Tamar, posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 9:30:08
I know it feels awful and scary being stalked, it has happened to me before. I believe most of your partner's clients do follow the rules I am sure. But you have to realize the nature of the business your partner is in, they are dealing with people who have emotional and physical problems and they don't always know how to control themselves because they are mentally ill or having a lot of emotional issues.
So I am sure this kind of thing, although doesn't happen every day or every month, to your partner, will probably happen again because of the work they choose to do. Is it right? NO , absolutely not. But also keep in mind that not all clients know the boundry lines either. My T has never told me I can't come to his house or call him at home. Would I do it, no, but I am not unstable or mentally ill, and know what is appropriate. But a lot of clients do not know what is and isn't appropriate behavior, heck that is why they are in therapy in the first place.
Posted by happyflower on April 26, 2006, at 20:19:36
In reply to therapy boundries (one woman cine), posted by happyflower on April 26, 2006, at 20:05:44
I am also thinking that this board is good when you need help dealing with therapy but maybe isn't the best place to get support for those in a personal relationship or marriage with a T who have issues with being in that position.
Maybe since it affects your SO, maybe they know a support board for T's and their partners. I am sure there are other issues that you would have in common with these people since you share this in common.
I hope you don't think I am saying you shouldn't be on this board, I think you should because you are in therapy like the rest of us.
Kinda like I know there is a parenting board, but if I have issues concerning step-parenting, I know I will receive more support from a specific board for stepparents. I wouldn't go to a stepkids board and expect them to know or understand where I am coming from.
Posted by madeline on April 26, 2006, at 20:46:17
In reply to And...., posted by one woman cine on April 26, 2006, at 8:38:05
>>I chose this board because no one here is censored and it was something I had an opinion about<<
Thanks, that's really all I wanted to know. Really.
Posted by one woman cine on April 27, 2006, at 8:28:47
In reply to Re: therapy boundries (one woman cine), posted by happyflower on April 26, 2006, at 20:19:36
Thanks happyflower. I'm wasn't here to get support for the issues that come up in having a relationship with a T. That's absolutely incorrect. But, just like people have an opinion about a SO in regards to therapy, so do I. The issue of therapy just doesn't involve you and therapist, it includes ideas and feelings about spouses, children, co-workers etc (spouses get talked about often, no?)- because therapy becomes applicable to every aspect of our lives. But this has nothing to do with the therapy relationship at all, in fact. Your relationship is your relationship, just like my relationship is my relationship - but it doesn't preclude ideas and discussions, no?
& when certain topics are brought up, I also have a unique perspective (just like anyone else.) If someone's therapist hugs them, should someone not post because their therapist doesn't? Or should someone not post if they are friends with a T? What about a spouse? It's helpful for you to post about things are T related, no? I want to make this absolutely clear, I was never using this board to get support about that. (In fact, I didn't mention it until a few days ago.) I was offering a first person perspective about another aspect of T's.
& because my perspective makes people uncomfortable, from what I'm gathering - unfortunately, does that mean that my opinion and thoughts don't count? I mean if people here are talking about purple hippos and I happen to have one in my backyard, I shouldn't say anything about it; just because no one else really has a purple hippo. I was actually thinking that another perspective would be help inject some realism into the discussion. It seems that alot of personal questions arise about what are T's like? But it also seems, & forgive me if I'm wrong & I very well may be - but when a first person perspective is offered, the persepctive is not wanted.
I think everyone brings something to the table, whether its a horrible experience with a therapist or a good one, whether someone is a T or in therapy - whether a patient is in love with a T, or the spouse of one. That's all. I appreciate what your saying, I appreciate you posting your thoughts.
Posted by orchid on April 27, 2006, at 13:15:25
In reply to Re: therapy boundries (one woman cine) » happyflower, posted by one woman cine on April 27, 2006, at 8:28:47
Hi One Woman Cine,
I understand where you are coming from. And I personally like when people who have therapists in their direct lives give us their opinion.There is no better way to learn about T and the fantasy about them rather than being able to hear from someone directly connected to them.
And I agree with you, that it helps put a pinch of reality into the situation.I am sorry that you were stalked. I really am sorry. It must have felt horrible, and I think you have every right to say your opinion about things in any board related to therapy in any sort.
That said, what HappyFlower said and Madeline said are from the perspective that, even though this board is meant for any sort of therapy discussion, and even though any thing can be discussed here, you have to acknowledge that the majority of the people here are clients.
Majority of us here do have a strong attachment to Ts and feel very emotional about it. The truth is, most of us know logically that it is a strictly professional relationship and it needs certain boundaries etc. But the emotional roller coaster that the therapy makes the clients go through is unbelievably hard for the clients. So people here usually feel extremely sensitive.
That is why I offered apology for my post, considering the factor of the sensitiveness of the issue and taking into factor how many of the folks here *feel* about therapy and therapists.
You are welcome to post here. And you have every right to. But take into factor the predominant emotional state of the people here. You can talk about your personal experiences, but do not make generalized comments (in case you did - I don't remember if you did that). Talk in terms of your personal issues rather than make it applicable to all Ts and their spouses and all patients. And also remember on the side that you are a minority here - and usually, democracy wins :-). That doesn't mean your rights will not be protected, they will be, and if some one hurts you, they will get a pbc or a block, but you may not get the most favourable response that you desire. Like it or not, that is the truth. And it is a fact of reality. But if you are prepared for that, I am sure with time and effort, you will be able to do the greatest favor to many of us here - you might have opinions so valuable to many of us here - if you say it with empathy and consideration. You might end up being the most valuable advisor here, being the one with first hand information.
Posted by madeline on April 27, 2006, at 18:38:30
In reply to Re: therapy boundries (one woman cine) » one woman cine, posted by orchid on April 27, 2006, at 13:15:25
Orchid,
You are truly a wonderful person with a big big heart and spirit.
I really admire that.I hope things are going well for you, but, if not, you know where we are.
Maddie.
Posted by orchid on April 27, 2006, at 20:09:19
In reply to Re: therapy boundries (one woman cine) » orchid, posted by madeline on April 27, 2006, at 18:38:30
Thanks :-)
I almost opened the post with fear that I said something wrong and I was going to receive a bashing.
This thread has been like treading on thin ice.
Posted by madeline on April 27, 2006, at 20:27:54
In reply to Re: therapy boundries (one woman cine) » madeline, posted by orchid on April 27, 2006, at 20:09:19
Personally, I think everything resolved quite nicely.
I learned what an open and caring person you really are and that we all struggle with relationships, not only with our T's but with each other as well.
We even struggle with the relationship we have with ourselves sometimes.
The really amazing thing is that we haven chosen to go through this struggle TOGETHER.
And I wouldn't have it any other way.
Posted by gardenergirl on April 27, 2006, at 23:18:00
In reply to No bashings from me! » orchid, posted by madeline on April 27, 2006, at 20:27:54
>> The really amazing thing is that we haven chosen to go through this struggle TOGETHER.
>
> And I wouldn't have it any other way.I wholeheartedly agree.
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on April 28, 2006, at 9:31:29
In reply to Re: therapy boundries (one woman cine) » happyflower, posted by one woman cine on April 27, 2006, at 8:28:47
> I think everyone brings something to the table, whether its a horrible experience with a therapist or a good one, whether someone is a T or in therapy - whether a patient is in love with a T, or the spouse of one.
I just want to say I agree...
Bob
Posted by curtm on April 28, 2006, at 13:01:03
In reply to Re: everyone brings something, posted by Dr. Bob on April 28, 2006, at 9:31:29
I often try to bring something useful to the table, but sometimes my selfish narcissim gets in the way an I start babbling hateful jibberish that is probably just ignored (the best response.) So to everyone, I mean no harm to you, it's just my denial that I can really make a difference?
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