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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by fairywings on December 9, 2005, at 10:19:55
In reply to Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 9:58:19
I know you have a lot of respect for him, and he's helped you a lot, BUT this is your therapy, not his! He should do his distancing between sessions, not during yours. You're paying for his help, if he can't handle the intensity, then he shouldn't be a therapist. I know it's really hard to think about a new T, but I'd talk it over with him, maybe write all of your thoughts and feelings down, and if he can't be more consistent, then I'd be looking elsewhere. I think therapy is about what YOU need, and talking in one session about things that are very intense probably isn't enough. It's not like talking about it and having a week to digest it is going to make it go away. Usually when we have the intense sessions I feel worse the next week. If my T retreated I'd take it personally, feel rejected, and wouldn't be able to go back. His reaction would just make everything worse.
I hope you can work this out.
fw
Posted by one woman cine on December 9, 2005, at 10:23:36
In reply to Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 9:58:19
Hi,
Maybe it would be helpful to talk about the frustration and rejection you feel. How often do you see him?
I think if you see someone 2 or 3 times of week, the intensity is different than if you see him once a week. The tenor and the tempo of the sessions could be different.
Or that could just be his style & you can both negotiate something that feels good for the both of you. I think persective is good, sometimes if something is so intense for me (PTSD too) it's good to touch upon it, process it, let it go a little at a time - instead of being flooded. That's what's worked for me.
I think bottom line, it would be wise to talk to him exactly about the way you feel, as you've stated in this post - (I don't know if you have, maybe you have?) & begin a discussion. Because, in my opinion, the way you are relating is problematic for you - which is more grist for the therapy mill and could possibly prove to be helpful.
Posted by happyflower on December 9, 2005, at 10:36:47
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » LauraBeane, posted by one woman cine on December 9, 2005, at 10:23:36
It is YOUR therapy, and you should feel like it is. Are you okay after the intense sessions? Or are you keeping with you all week until your next session? I know when they desensatize the painful memories they make you stay with the memories until it no longer becomes less stressful or they EMDR.
I would talk to him about it, and tell him you want to continue with what you are feeling. I know for me after an intense session, I want to talk about how I processed it like the next day . It would be hard waiting a week and then him not allowing you to do that. I guess the only thing would be to talk to him about it. Good luck! :) By the way, nice to meet ya! Keep posting! :)
Posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 14:32:21
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » LauraBeane, posted by fairywings on December 9, 2005, at 10:19:55
Retreat is a good word, it describes very well what happens. And I do take it personally, and I do feel rejected! I think to myself, I shouldn't have said [whatever]. Intellectually though I think it is not intended personally. It is I think a conscious decision to maintain balance. Not the best way for me but not directed personally at me, but hard for me to feel that, especially when it happens. I feel rejected and artificial talking about something else.
This is the first time in my life I have connected with a therapist, so this relationship means a great deal to me. I will keep trying to work it out. Thanks so much for putting yourself in my shoes -- I really appreciate your thoughts.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 14:56:47
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » LauraBeane, posted by one woman cine on December 9, 2005, at 10:23:36
I see him once a week. I have thought about asking to come more often but I sense a boundary there and I'm not sure myself if I want to go more often. I am afraid of becoming too dependent.
We have talked about this distancing a bit -- I once expressed confusion at what was happening, and he explained that he pulls back to get some distance. Yes it is a matter of style and I want to negotiate something that works for us both. Thank you for expressing it. That's exactly it.
I will think about the pacing. Yours is a different approach, I wonder if I could be more measured & allow time to process things a bit at a time. when we touch on something I do tend to run headlong into whatever it is we're discussing and all of a sudden I am in very deep.
I will bring it up again, because as you say it is problematic for me. Yet I worry about losing what I've got. I don't connect with others very often and I want to preserve this.
Thanks for your help, I really appreciate your reply.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 15:00:06
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 14:56:47
Posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 15:03:42
In reply to Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 9:58:19
> I am a lurker because the few times I've replied to posts my tone came out all wrong, and when I later read what I had written I was appalled at the person who came through. I hope that isn't really me.
I remember you posting a few months ago. I think you posted in a thread about termination. I thought you seemed really nice; not appalling at all! Maybe you didn’t feel quite like yourself, and that’s fine, but I thought you came across as a very understanding and sympathetic person. I wondered what happened to you, so it’s nice to see you posting again!
> But, my need to ask for help from all of you outweighs the rest, so I will try to do better. I have been seeing my T for 2 1/2 years. this is the longest/most committed therapy relationship I've ever had. he is treating me for PTSD. He has helped me so much and I have a great deal of respect for him.
>
> What happens is this. Sometimes after we get into one of those very intense sessions, talking about my stuff, the next session I go in expecting to continue the discussion but I find the atmosphere in the room is entirely different; he has pulled back. He becomes exremely objective (to me he feels cold) and he either runs through the issues in a "in sum" kind of way or simply steers the conversation elsewhere.Oh gosh! That sounds hard. I don’t understand why he’d need to steer the conversation elsewhere. If he has a reason, he should explain it to you.
> This really throws me. I have reacted in different ways, once walking out because I couldn't bear the difference between what was there before/what I was expecting, and what is there now. He told me once that this is the way he does therapy, gives a lot but then steps back to regain some distance and perspective.
Yes, but I totally understand that once you’ve got yourself in ‘the zone’ to share stuff it’s extremely disconcerting if he seems to pull away. It must feel as it he thinks it’s not OK for you to talk about the things you’ve bravely said out loud.
> I know it is a way of taking care of himself but it's so hard for me. It always takes me by surprise. It's frustrating and it feels like rejection. I react defensively and try to pull him back to where we were, which makes it worse because it doesn't work and I feel like a fool.
I don’t think he should need to take care of himself in this way. He has all week to withdraw from your stuff and gain perspective. But maybe he’s trying to keep you from flooding… which could make it harder for you to deal with stuff.
> any thoughts are much appreciated. Just being able to get it out of my head is a tremendous help, so thanks for listening.
I think there’s a therapy rhythm… I often found that after a session in which I felt really close we had a session in which I struggled to connect. I’ve heard others say similar things. Sometimes we pull back ourselves to avoid feelings of dependence; other times perhaps the therapist is pulling back, for whatever reason.
I really think that talking about it to your T is the only way to get a handle on it. There might be occasions on which you really need to continue the intensity, and perhaps he can respect that. The bottom line is that therapy is supposed to be about your stuff, so (in my opinion) he shouldn’t be manipulating the process by being capricious.
Just my two cents.
Tamar
Posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 15:17:41
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by happyflower on December 9, 2005, at 10:36:47
It does bother me, very much. And I feel as if I'm the only person who has this problem with a T, and that bothers me too, like it is just me.
I will talk to him about it. Thanks for your reply (and for the encouragement about posting!) that was really nice.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 15:18:28
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 15:17:41
Posted by happyflower on December 9, 2005, at 15:25:30
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 15:17:41
Sometimes I think we need to "teach" our T's on how to their jobs for our needs. Good luck, it is hard to discuss this stuff with our T's . One time I had to tell my T to back off, now that was hard, but I did it, and it did help. LOL
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2005, at 16:58:37
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 15:17:41
I think Happyflower is right. Generic therapy rarely fits everyone, and they don't know how we're reacting unless we tell them.
Can you start up a conversation when you feel it happening? And tell him you didn't quite understand why this style of backing off was in your best interests? That way it doesn't have to be confrontational.
I am very up front about the temperature in the room, so to speak. If I feel he isn't engaged, or if I feel him pull back, I mention it right away, and he's usually able to put the energy back into the room. That saves me from the anger that comes to me from an empty session.
Posted by annierose on December 9, 2005, at 18:21:17
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » LauraBeane, posted by Dinah on December 9, 2005, at 16:58:37
Hi Laura -
It's nice to see you posting again. And like Tamar said, I don't remember anything you talked about making me feel offended, so please stick around.
Like Dinah, I do tend to mention to my T at the moment "You seem to be elsewhere today," or "Are you mad at me?" ... when I sense she is not in the room with me (which is rare, I might add). At first it was hard to bring up these "moments", but it has always helped bring the conversation/therapy back to where I want it. Sometimes my T will even ask, "What can I do differently, what do you want me to do to help you?" I sometimes surprise myself at what comes out of my mouth!
Try being direct and see how he responds to you.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 19:20:18
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » LauraBeane, posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 15:03:42
Thanks for remembering me Tamar, and for your kind words!
Yes you are right, when my T pulls back and pulls back so strongly, it feels to me as if I have shared aloud something better left unsaid. It is very hard. Most recently, a topic came up that brought us into an intense discussion which ended too soon, nearly mid-sentence, but I left feeling really connected & good despite the difficult subject matter. But the following week, everything had changed. The distance is palpable, as I think it is meant to be.
You mention the rhythm in therapy, Cine also mentioned the pace of therapy and the problem of flooding. I am sure I am a flooder. (word?) Perhaps I need to see if we circle back to it on a less intense level.
Talking about it is such a relief. Thank you for your valuable two cents, worth much more than that to me.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 19:21:06
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 19:20:18
Posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 19:37:14
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » LauraBeane, posted by Dinah on December 9, 2005, at 16:58:37
I like your phrase "temperature in the room," it describes the atmosphere so well yet keeps the tone objective.
I actually did bring this up once -- I called after a session because I was so upset at the way things had changed from one week to the next. He acknowledged it and told me he steps back at times in order to regain perspective. Knowing this does not make it feel any less personal when it happens. I feel so rejected.
It helps to know that you have had to address something similar with your therapist and that he responded when you brought it up. I'm not so sure mine would. I think this is something he needs to do. Whether I can handle it or not is what I have to figure out, I suppose.
Thanks Dinah for your reply.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 19:49:15
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by annierose on December 9, 2005, at 18:21:17
Thanks annierose for encouraging me to post! And for sharing your experiences. I might just borrow your words because you make your point in such a nice way. You help me realize I was extremely defensive about it the one time I brought it up.
I do think this is a deliberate distancing that has to do with pacing and intensity. I think another poster is right in saying it is part of his style, now I need to see if we can negotiate through this. I don't want to stop working with him, he has helped me so much, but I also don't think he's going to change.
Thanks again for your reply.
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2005, at 20:05:15
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » annierose, posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 19:49:15
Don't be so sure he won't change. Although I understand not wanting to get your hopes up.
I talked to my sex therapist about her style, and while she wasn't willing to change it completely for me, she surprised me by being more than willing to change the pace and intensity of it. She was mainly glad that I had had the courage to speak to her about it. It was a very polite and non-confrontational discussion and I'm very glad we had it, even if I don't stay with her long term.
Of course, I tried the same thing with my biofeedback therapist a few years back and got a very different reaction. :(
But you never know. I'd have never guessed she would take the entire topic so well.
I am very lucky with my therapist. One of the things he does best is take feedback well.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 10, 2005, at 7:46:35
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » LauraBeane, posted by Dinah on December 9, 2005, at 20:05:15
I do feel I need to bring it up again. You're right though, I don't want to get my hopes up. It's not as if I never put it out there before, and when I did it was clear I was upset. I think this is his way of maintaining balance, so as not to become enmeshed in my stuff.
It's very hard. I am really agonizing over it. I am thinking about cancelling our next session, which is something I never do and I don't want to do, but I feel like such a fool for having opened up this stuff and I don't know if I can follow him into another topic. It feels so forced and artificial to me. The reaction at the time was positive but the pulling away, avoiding any deep discussion of it at the following session, instead running through the issues in a most dispassionate "let's sum this up" way is a killer for me.
Sorry dinah I don't mean to get so intense. I just have to figure out what to do.
I'm not going to keep saying thanks for your reply, I think I can assume you know I appreciate your reply. :-)
Posted by LauraBeane on December 10, 2005, at 7:48:02
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 10, 2005, at 7:46:35
Posted by annierose on December 10, 2005, at 20:11:27
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 10, 2005, at 7:46:35
Cancelling the next session is rarely the right path. When our brains gives us this thought, I often wonder (because I sometimes have the same reaction) "What am I running away from?".
Cancelling a session doesn't solve the problem. I often have problems IRL dealing directly with conflict, in a non-confrontive manner. Therapy gives me these "learning opportunties" all the time. It takes a great deal of courage to muster the strength to say, "The other day when we talk about x,y, and z, I felt .....". But everytime I do bring these types of topics into therapy, it is ALWAYS helpful. It may take more than one session to resolve the conflict, but it does get resolved.
Try to go. Try to tell him what you wrote about here. This is his area of expertise. He should be able to have this discussion.
We'll be pulling for you.
Posted by tarabara on December 13, 2005, at 16:10:29
In reply to Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 9, 2005, at 9:58:19
hi laurabeane. i am too being treated for ptsd and have had huge issues with distance and boundries. i also experience the hot and cold in therapy and can never figure out if it is me or my therapist, who is also a male (i am female.) a girlfriend of mine mentioned to me that it seems i am really hard on my therapist. so, i told him that in session last week. he asked if i thought i was being hard on him, i did. i then asked him if i was being hard on him and he told me that he would be lying if he said no. he said that this relationship has been very hard on him however he is willing to handle it. i caught a look in his eye that looked like he was going to cry. it only then hit me that i could have this effect on my therapist. it was a good reminder that i can have this effect on people and it was a reminder that he is human. maybe you can ask him about how/why he has these boundries and to describe his thought process when he goes through them. it might help you to get over some of the pissed off feelings that i know we have all felt.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 13, 2005, at 19:28:54
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by tarabara on December 13, 2005, at 16:10:29
tarabara, thank you so much for posting. I can't adequately express what it means to me to know that you know what it's like.
I went to my appt. today but I couldn't bring it up. I think he was trying to reach out to me but I was having none of it because I just can't tell if it's safe. That hot and cold, as you said.
But you know what it's like. And you asked. Your exchange with your therapist was so poignant. One of those sacred moments.
I will really think about what you said. I will try to ask him about the boundaries. Thank you tarabara for helping me. I hope this doesn't sound excessive but I feel like you saved me today.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 13, 2005, at 19:30:51
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » LauraBeane, posted by annierose on December 10, 2005, at 20:11:27
I couldn't talk about it yet but you helped me not to cancel. Thanks, annierose.
Posted by LauraBeane on December 13, 2005, at 19:31:57
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long), posted by LauraBeane on December 13, 2005, at 19:30:51
Posted by tarabara on December 13, 2005, at 23:17:17
In reply to Re: Forced distance (long) » tarabara, posted by LauraBeane on December 13, 2005, at 19:28:54
i'm so glad i could help. i know what it's like. therapy has driven me crazy and i realized that i may have driven my therapist a little crazy too. he has admitted that he has stretched his boundaries for me already such as giving me 5-10 extra minutes, returning my emails which are often freakout emails.
interestingly, today i finally saw a psychiatrist who i could really talk to. i sometimes feel funny talking to my therapist about how much i obsess over stuff and how i get so hot and cold about it. i make an effort but sometimes i just keep it to myself. anyway, i talked to this psychiatrist for about and hour and he suspects i have bipolar II. NEVER would have thought of it on my own and i love to deconstruct my therapy. what i'm trying to get at is the psychiatrist gave me an outlet to freely discuss some compulsive feelings i have been having in therapy which lead to a discussion of compulsive feelings i've had all my life. it was interesting. maybe this was the first time i was able to be honest with a psychiatrist. anyway, it's an outlet. are you seeing a psychiatrist as well?
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