![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 27 to 51 of 51. Go back in thread:
Posted by allisonross on December 8, 2005, at 14:45:46
In reply to ((((((((((((ALLY)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))), posted by happyflower on December 8, 2005, at 11:16:58
>Hey, Happy! Don't worry, can't lose my sense of humor---it's all that si keeping me "sane"----LOL!!
Don't ever lose your sense of humor, it is what I really enjoy about you. If you can't laugh at life, then what is the point in living, ya know? I say post what you want, if it is nessary to put trigger warnings on our fantasies, then we must to protect others, but please don't stop posting.
Okay!
I am so glad to have "met" you, and you know summer is coming soon, we need to start planinng for our double wedding! LOL :)
I am looking forward to that! Now just gotta ask "him" to marry me, LOL, LOL
Hugs and Love, PIC, Ally
Posted by allisonross on December 8, 2005, at 14:51:30
In reply to green lights (***various possible triggers***) » allisonross, posted by Tamar on December 8, 2005, at 11:22:27
> Hey Ally,
> Hey, Tamar!
> Don't let it get you down!I'll get over it. Takes me time.
I don't think any of the comments anyone made were intended as any kind of personal criticism of you. (Or Happyflower or me - I think of the three of us as the usual suspects for this kind of stuff; hope I haven't left out anyone who wanted to be included!)
>
> I guess it's just a fact that even when people understand different points of view they don't always feel comfortable about it.I'm different, I guess (well, I've been told that ALL of my life, LOL).....if I don't understand something or agree, i don't say anything.
It's just one of the hazards of relating to other people. Fortunately the rewards outweigh the difficulties!
>
> I'm trying not to think of it as criticism... I'm thinking of it as discomfort. I really don't think anyone is suggesting we're doing anything bad.Talking about ones' feelings isn't bad; just normal.
They just don’t like to read it. So, what kind of a trigger do you use? There's so many things that someone may not want to read; it could boggle ones' mind.
>
> I guess the joking was a bit more emotive than we anticipated. And people have all kinds of different triggers. I know you're a sensitive person who would never hurt anyone on purpose, and I wouldn’t want to either.Thankyou, that is true.
>
> You take care, and remember that if people feel a little uneasy about those joking posts it’s because they don’t want you to get hurt.But I didn't hear anything like concern, etc., it was criticism that I was somehow being disrespectful to my t---Nothing could be further from the truth. Our relationship is unbelievable. Things were read into what I said...as my t says: "We all construct our own versions of reality." This is true, LOL!
Thankyou, (((Tamar))))....hugs, Ally
>
> Tamar
>
>
Posted by allisonross on December 8, 2005, at 14:56:26
In reply to Re: Green Light-Tempest in a t - pot/TriggerAbuse » allisonross, posted by one woman cine on December 8, 2005, at 11:25:17
> Hi,
Hi! Thankyou. That comment "I am sorry you are feeling criticized" is perfect. Tells me you heard me. That's all we really need......to be heard.
>
> I am sorry you are feeling criticized. I think you can possibly have alot to add to discussions b/c you have so much experience. I personally don't think anyone was criticizing you.yes, it was a criticism...not important to go into again.
Life is hard, & no one wants to make it any harder for anyone else. I do hope you continue to post - I would sincerely hope, however, you do so keeping in mind what previous posters have said - that being lighthearted is necessary, but some joking can be construed by others as hurtful and offensive - depending on where a person happens to be on their journey in life.
I understand that, but how is one to know what is/is not offensive, etc.? This is difficult to know.
>
> I think it's really important to try to see things from someone else's perspective and respect their particular boundaries, even if you may not agree with it or understand it.I agree.
>
> Abuse is rough & can really do a number on you, I think alot of people can relate to that. But just as you may be sensitive to criticism, some folks here are sensitive to sexual issues regarding their therapist. I hope you are able to strike a balance.It's best that I don't mention the therapist/me relationship again, cause I have no idea what I should/should not post; way too confusing. Best of luck.
Thankyou, and hugs, Ally
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by cricket on December 8, 2005, at 15:38:36
In reply to Sex Jokes about Ts, posted by cricket on December 8, 2005, at 13:39:43
Sorry
No offense or criticism of anyone intended.
I think this place is not for me anymore.
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2005, at 16:19:20
In reply to Re: Sex Jokes about Ts, posted by cricket on December 8, 2005, at 15:38:36
Cricket, please don't go anywhere.
I appreciated your input. Actually, I didn't realize that I echoed your feelings somewhat until I read your post. I make a lot of jokes about my therapist, that's true, but I do see the therapeutic space (if not my therapist) as more than a bit sacred. This topic aside, I think that's an important realization for me, and I thank you for that.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 8, 2005, at 17:15:48
In reply to Re: Sex Jokes about Ts » cricket, posted by Dinah on December 8, 2005, at 16:19:20
Please don't go.
gg
Posted by Tamar on December 8, 2005, at 17:39:47
In reply to Re: Green Light-Tempest in a t - pot/TriggerAbuse » one woman cine, posted by allisonross on December 8, 2005, at 14:56:26
Hey everyone,
Just wanted to post some hugs. (((((Everyone)))))
I know I’m finding this quite painful, and I think a few others are too.
But I would hate to see anyone leave…
And I would also hate to see people feeling very distressed...
We can work it out, right? I don’t think we can make it perfect for anyone, but can we make it tolerable for most?
Tamar
Posted by happyflower on December 8, 2005, at 17:51:47
In reply to triggers and pain, posted by Tamar on December 8, 2005, at 17:39:47
Posted by Dinah on December 8, 2005, at 18:10:14
In reply to triggers and pain, posted by Tamar on December 8, 2005, at 17:39:47
I certainly hope we can work it out.
I would hate to see *anyone* leave too. I'm not sure I made that clear. And I hate to see *anyone* hurt.
As Tamar said, it may be impossible to make it perfect or even not painful for everyone. But I add my wish that the situation can become tolerable.
Maybe the key to that is recognition of and regret for the pain on the part of everyone who is feeling it. Maybe even for those who aren't posting about it.
It's hard to see conflict here on Babble isn't it? But my therapist would say that's part of life, and I need to learn to tolerate being angry or having others angry with me, while still keeping the overall relationship in mind. Then I'd probably would say something either very whimpery about not liking anger, or something very direct and to the point about his words depending on my mood. And then... Well, in the end we'd work it out.
So I'll duck now in case anyone has the same reaction to my words that I have towards his. And yet be fairly confident that we can work it out.
Posted by sleepygirl on December 8, 2005, at 18:46:02
In reply to Sex Jokes about Ts, posted by cricket on December 8, 2005, at 13:39:43
I know what you mean, because I have a tremendous amount of respect for the therapy relationship too. I know people are joking here, and having a good time, but it's over the top for me too. I hope you don't go though....maybe skip these threads?? I know it's hard not to see them though.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 8, 2005, at 21:40:48
In reply to Re: Green Light-Tempest in a t - pot/TriggerAbuse, posted by allisonross on December 8, 2005, at 10:57:01
> Much ado....about nothing; that is MY opinion, LOL
Please respect the views of others and be sensitive to their feelings.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 9, 2005, at 1:00:39
In reply to Re: Green Light-Tempest in a t - pot/TriggerAbuse, posted by allisonross on December 8, 2005, at 10:57:01
Much ado....about nothing; that is MY opinion, LOL
It's ironic. I've always been so careful with my words (Living with verbal abuse for a lifetime), and counseling people who have been verbally abused.
Having been abused and counselling people who have been verbally abused, you are probably quite familiar with you, (or someone you counsel) being upset about something, or having something really hurt, opening up about it, and recieving a reaction like:
"Get over it" "Lighten up..I was joking " "Oh sh*t You're crying again, can't you just shut up for a minute "
Basically having the genuineness of your feelings dismissed by that person because they themselves didn't feel it was anything to be upset about, or didn't want to. If that happened to you, I wonder how it felt?
Posted by orchid on December 9, 2005, at 4:08:51
In reply to triggers and pain, posted by Tamar on December 8, 2005, at 17:39:47
I agree with Tamar as well.
It may not be a perfect arrangement for everyone, but we do post lot of different kind of stuff here that are difficult for many people to take. If everyone has to post what readers like, then babble simply won't be what it is now - a great supportive place. We talk about abuses, suicide triggers, rapes etc - so why shouldn't we allow jokes about our Ts? (however explicit they may be)
But to not offend people, just put a little T trigger, and people who get offended can stay off of it.
I personally, don't like to joke about my T in very explicit ways. I don't joke like that about anyone - not alone my T. But it is my personal preference, and I have absolutely no problem with people posting what they want about their Ts. It is true, that sometimes I find the jokes little offensive and kind of reduces the sanctity of the T-client relationship, and for that matter, the sanctity of any man-woman relationship, but everyone has their own way of working through their issues, and there is no right or wrong in these things. So if a person doesn't like what is posted, staying away from that thread would be the best thing to do. And posters can post Trigger warnings.
Posted by one woman cine on December 9, 2005, at 9:51:30
In reply to Re: Green Light-Tempest in a t - pot/TriggerAbuse » one woman cine, posted by allisonross on December 8, 2005, at 14:56:26
"I understand that, but how is one to know what is/is not offensive, etc.? This is difficult to know."
I guess one can gauge what someone finds offensive or upsetting by carefully listening. This wasn't the first thread where posters have stated that they were uncomfortable with the topic of "sex with the therapist". I posted about a topic that was probably uncomfortable with alot of people, myself included (primarily prompted by all the previous posts about love in therapy) - but everyone who responded really was engaged in a true dialogue and stated their opinions and feelings with respect to everyone else. & we didn't all agree. If a miscommunication occurred, it was re-hashed and spoken about it. (Anyway, this is what I thought.) & I truly applaud everyone who contributed to that thread & I found it inspiring that folks could discuss things in such a constructive manner.
It is difficult to know what could possibly trigger someone - ( & I was going to insert a joke here) but I think the best course of action is to tread lightly and respectfully as you can. & humor is important but you have to know your audience. This is a community of sorts, but still - I don't feel I can ever "know" anyone here enough to make jokes about the very serious subject matter that we are discussing.
It's not a matter of discussing your therapeutic relationship, it's the manner in which you do it. If you don't feel comfortable discussing it, I totally respect that.
You stated earlier you didn't mind to be asked questions first. Do you still feel like answering a question?
Posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 14:13:40
In reply to Gauging comfort levels » allisonross, posted by one woman cine on December 9, 2005, at 9:51:30
I’m glad that people have posted so honestly about all this.Nevertheless, after reading some of the responses in this thread, I’m feeling judged, criticized, misunderstood and ashamed.
There is *no one* in my real life who understands at all about my feelings for my therapist. I know because I have tried to talk about it IRL. And it is so painful most of the time... a little relief every now and then helps enormously. That’s where humour comes in.
I don’t expect everyone at Babble to understand… but I wish it were possible.
If this were trivial to me I would let it go and not bother making a big deal about it. But it’s not trivial to me.
I am trying quite hard to see things from other perspectives. I’ll keep trying. And I’m hoping that others will try to see my way of communicating my feelings as different rather than wrong.
Tamar
Posted by happyflower on December 9, 2005, at 14:19:19
In reply to Re: Gauging comfort levels, posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 14:13:40
Well I still plan on discussing it but with I guess trigger warnings. You can babble mail me anytime Tamar, I understand, how it feels, I am in the same boat. Please don't feel alone, I love your humor and understanding, babble wouldn't be the same without you! :)
Posted by Dinah on December 9, 2005, at 15:03:37
In reply to Re: Gauging comfort levels, posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 14:13:40
Tamar, I just wanted to say that I have never felt critical of you, and there's nothing in any of my thoughts that should make you feel ashamed.
Clearly, I don't understand on a gut level the idea of desiring one's therapist, but I understand it on an intellectual level.
And I suppose that I should add the caveat that these threads don't upset me in a *major* way, so I may not be expressing the opinions of those who do get very upset.
These things tend to go in cycles on Babble. This isn't the first time when sexual jokes about therapists are dominant on the board. At other times other types of posts might be dominant. I tend to skip over these threads, but this isn't the only sort of thread that I make that decision on.
I don't recall your posts ever making me feel uncomfortable, Tamar. I don't think I'd mind if I found out that your therapist and my therapist were one and the same. That's sort of my litmus test. :)
Posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 15:23:14
In reply to Re: Gauging comfort levels » Tamar, posted by Dinah on December 9, 2005, at 15:03:37
> Tamar, I just wanted to say that I have never felt critical of you, and there's nothing in any of my thoughts that should make you feel ashamed.
Thanks Dinah.
> Clearly, I don't understand on a gut level the idea of desiring one's therapist, but I understand it on an intellectual level.
I know…
> And I suppose that I should add the caveat that these threads don't upset me in a *major* way, so I may not be expressing the opinions of those who do get very upset.
>
> These things tend to go in cycles on Babble. This isn't the first time when sexual jokes about therapists are dominant on the board. At other times other types of posts might be dominant. I tend to skip over these threads, but this isn't the only sort of thread that I make that decision on.Yeah; of course there are things that people don’t want to read. I just hope the trigger warnings make it OK for people.
> I don't recall your posts ever making me feel uncomfortable, Tamar. I don't think I'd mind if I found out that your therapist and my therapist were one and the same. That's sort of my litmus test. :)
I’m glad I didn’t make you feel uncomfortable. And I feel so honoured that you said that about your therapist and mine! That means a lot to me!
(((((Dinah)))))
Thanks so much for your response.
Tamar
Posted by allisonross on December 9, 2005, at 15:45:25
In reply to Re: Gauging comfort levels, posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 14:13:40
> (((Tamar))), sweetie:
NO ONE could understand more than I do.
> I’m glad that people have posted so honestly about all this.
>
> Nevertheless, after reading some of the responses in this thread, I’m feeling judged, criticized, misunderstood and ashamed.That is EXACTLY how I felt and what I said (I thought I was readying my OWN posting here, but it is you)
We should never be made to feel ashamed of our feelings. They are facts....not right...or wrong....just simply....facts.
>
> There is *no one* in my real life who understands at all about my feelings for my therapist.i do; I could write a book on what has happened and how I felt (not to mention the poems I have written about the pain of unrequited [kind of] love.
I know because I have tried to talk about it IRL. And it is so painful most of the time... a little relief every now and then helps enormously. That’s where humour comes in.
If I couldn't have my sense of humor, I would be drooling in a corner somewhere...it is my saving grace in life.
>
> I don’t expect everyone at Babble to understand… but I wish it were possible.
>
> If this were trivial to me I would let it go and not bother making a big deal about it. But it’s not trivial to me.Nor me...matter of fact it is a big portion of my life (too long to go into here and explain)
>
> I am trying quite hard to see things from other perspectives. I’ll keep trying. And I’m hoping that others will try to see my way of communicating my feelings as different rather than wrong.Tamar: e-mail me anytime: wacalice@aol.com; we can get deeper into the stuff; I feel you are a safe person to share this stuff with......Hugs and Love, and you are NOT alone here....Ally
>
> Tamar
>
>
Posted by allisonross on December 9, 2005, at 15:45:44
In reply to Re: Gauging comfort levels, posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 14:13:40
> (((Tamar))), sweetie:
NO ONE could understand more than I do.
> I’m glad that people have posted so honestly about all this.
>
> Nevertheless, after reading some of the responses in this thread, I’m feeling judged, criticized, misunderstood and ashamed.That is EXACTLY how I felt and what I said (I thought I was readying my OWN posting here, but it is you)
We should never be made to feel ashamed of our feelings. They are facts....not right...or wrong....just simply....facts.
>
> There is *no one* in my real life who understands at all about my feelings for my therapist.i do; I could write a book on what has happened and how I felt (not to mention the poems I have written about the pain of unrequited [kind of] love.
I know because I have tried to talk about it IRL. And it is so painful most of the time... a little relief every now and then helps enormously. That’s where humour comes in.
If I couldn't have my sense of humor, I would be drooling in a corner somewhere...it is my saving grace in life.
>
> I don’t expect everyone at Babble to understand… but I wish it were possible.
>
> If this were trivial to me I would let it go and not bother making a big deal about it. But it’s not trivial to me.Nor me...matter of fact it is a big portion of my life (too long to go into here and explain)
>
> I am trying quite hard to see things from other perspectives. I’ll keep trying. And I’m hoping that others will try to see my way of communicating my feelings as different rather than wrong.Tamar: e-mail me anytime: wacalice@aol.com; we can get deeper into the stuff; I feel you are a safe person to share this stuff with......Hugs and Love, and you are NOT alone here....Ally
>
> Tamar
>
>
Posted by orchid on December 9, 2005, at 20:38:22
In reply to Gauging comfort levels » allisonross, posted by one woman cine on December 9, 2005, at 9:51:30
I have to second one woman cine on this one.
Maybe it is like most of us would like a good sexual scene in a movie, but some may not feel comfortable in an all out adult movie.
I haven't felt too bad about any of the threads so far. A few that were little offensive to my taste, but none that was outright offensive. And I did enjoy many of the threads - atleast reading them, even if I felt not able to participate in it. Plus as one woman cine said, it is the tone and the manner by which the post is made that makes it enjoyable or little offensive.
But the intention here is not to criticize or judge. It is just a different taste.
> "I understand that, but how is one to know what is/is not offensive, etc.? This is difficult to know."
>
> I guess one can gauge what someone finds offensive or upsetting by carefully listening. This wasn't the first thread where posters have stated that they were uncomfortable with the topic of "sex with the therapist". I posted about a topic that was probably uncomfortable with alot of people, myself included (primarily prompted by all the previous posts about love in therapy) - but everyone who responded really was engaged in a true dialogue and stated their opinions and feelings with respect to everyone else. & we didn't all agree. If a miscommunication occurred, it was re-hashed and spoken about it. (Anyway, this is what I thought.) & I truly applaud everyone who contributed to that thread & I found it inspiring that folks could discuss things in such a constructive manner.
>
> It is difficult to know what could possibly trigger someone - ( & I was going to insert a joke here) but I think the best course of action is to tread lightly and respectfully as you can. & humor is important but you have to know your audience. This is a community of sorts, but still - I don't feel I can ever "know" anyone here enough to make jokes about the very serious subject matter that we are discussing.
>
>
>
> It's not a matter of discussing your therapeutic relationship, it's the manner in which you do it. If you don't feel comfortable discussing it, I totally respect that.
>
> You stated earlier you didn't mind to be asked questions first. Do you still feel like answering a question?
>
>
Posted by orchid on December 9, 2005, at 20:40:58
In reply to Re: Gauging comfort levels, posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 14:13:40
I haven't felt offended by any of your posts so far. In fact I have enjoyed the sense of light humour many times when you and happyflower and allisonross joke about the Ts.
Posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 20:14:53
In reply to Re: Gauging comfort levels, posted by Tamar on December 9, 2005, at 14:13:40
I'm sorry you are feling so badly about all this, on top of feeling badly about the issues going on in therapy. I don't think it's trivial and have never stated such.
I also don't see your feelings as wrong. I don't think anyone is here to judge or criticize, especially not me. I hope you are able to talk about the stuff you are grappling with.
I must say however, that I feel everyone has a right to discuss how they are feeling about a particular issue within reason. This is a very provocative and serious issue for many people, & as you have stated, yourself.
& I don't know, but I feel that anyone saying anything about this, that expresses concern or discomfort is being silenced b/c it makes the original poster uncomfortable. I know this is simplifying it, (& I sincerely hope I don't aggravate you further by trying to explain....) but when I feel I'm not able to express myself, (& this is getting into my stuff) - I feel I'm not being "nice" etc etc. In essence, my silence means I'm taking care of someone else, at the expense of how I feel.
This isn't about judging feelings as right or wrong. Because they aren't either. They just happen. But for me, if something is uncomfortable; that means I get to have my say too. I find it's just healthier for me to advocate for myself, instead of sitting with someone's elses stuff that may not belong to me. & not that anyone was trying to do that, that just happens too.
I think it's really great you suggested the trigger warning, that's such a help. I hope I've cleared the air a little. I totally don't believe in censorship for anyone.
Posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 20:15:58
In reply to Re: Gauging comfort levels » one woman cine, posted by orchid on December 9, 2005, at 20:38:22
Posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 13:54:12
In reply to Re: Gauging comfort levels » Tamar, posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 20:14:53
> I'm sorry you are feling so badly about all this, on top of feeling badly about the issues going on in therapy. I don't think it's trivial and have never stated such.
>
> I also don't see your feelings as wrong. I don't think anyone is here to judge or criticize, especially not me. I hope you are able to talk about the stuff you are grappling with.Well, you see, there’s the thing. I’d like to talk about it. But I’d like to have the freedom to employ a wide range of expression, including humour.
> I must say however, that I feel everyone has a right to discuss how they are feeling about a particular issue within reason. This is a very provocative and serious issue for many people, & as you have stated, yourself.
Certainly everyone has the right to discuss how they are feeling. I’ve said already that I’m glad people are being honest about their feelings. What I’d like to see next is more working together to understand each other (I don’t mean to direct that at you specifically; I mean in general).
> & I don't know, but I feel that anyone saying anything about this, that expresses concern or discomfort is being silenced b/c it makes the original poster uncomfortable.
I don’t think anyone has been silenced. On the contrary, many people have expressed their concern and discomfort. And I’m glad they have. I’m glad that I now have a better understanding of why people are concerned and uncomfortable. I absolutely don’t want to silence anyone.
But I also want to be understood. At the moment I sense that the depth of people’s feelings is so profound that it’s hard to imagine understanding a different perspective. So perhaps the most I can hope for is that people will accept my perspective, even if they don’t understand it. It seems to me that people are willing to do that, and I’m very grateful that they are.
> I know this is simplifying it, (& I sincerely hope I don't aggravate you further by trying to explain....) but when I feel I'm not able to express myself, (& this is getting into my stuff) - I feel I'm not being "nice" etc etc. In essence, my silence means I'm taking care of someone else, at the expense of how I feel.
Ah. So perhaps if I’m not allowed to express myself by joking about my therapist, my silence means I’m taking care of people who find it too serious, at the expense of how I feel?
> This isn't about judging feelings as right or wrong. Because they aren't either. They just happen.
No indeed. It’s not about the feelings. It’s about ways of expressing the feelings. And if some methods of expression are encouraged and others are discouraged, judgments are being made about appropriate methods of expression.
> But for me, if something is uncomfortable; that means I get to have my say too. I find it's just healthier for me to advocate for myself, instead of sitting with someone's elses stuff that may not belong to me. & not that anyone was trying to do that, that just happens too.
I agree that you should have your say. I’m glad to hear your point of view.
> I think it's really great you suggested the trigger warning, that's such a help. I hope I've cleared the air a little. I totally don't believe in censorship for anyone.
Yes, I think the trigger warnings are probably the best solution to a difficult problem.
Regarding censorship… I know that there are rules here; we don’t have total freedom of expression. We have to remain civil, for example. But within those constraints I think it’s important to allow people as much freedom of expression as possible.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.