![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 61. Go back in thread:
Posted by thuso on November 26, 2005, at 20:32:55
In reply to Re: In the home stretch now » LipGloss, posted by happyflower on November 26, 2005, at 18:27:46
I've kept my mouth shut through all of your posts, but I will say now that I agree with LipGloss. Not that I think your feelings aren't real, but rather I think you are on the edge of crossing a line. That's what worries me.
> I know he is married, how do you know he is happily married? How do you know how he really feels ? Do you know my T? I am a very realistic person in real life, so I know what I am feeling and I what I see from him.
>The point is that he is married. It doesn't matter if he is happy or not. Right now he has a commitment to his wife and you need to respect that. And I can't really see how joking about your panties like you were mentioning is showing any respect to his wife or him. It's one thing to joke around. I'm fine with that. But if you respect him as much as I think you do, then you need to really be careful on how far you take this. I know you know he can't do anything even if he felt true feelings for you outside of being a patient. I think that is why LipGloss wrote what he/she did. LipGloss doesn't want you to get hurt.
>I just wonder how you think you know more about this situation than me.
>It is not that we necessarily are saying we know more about the situation than you, but are rather trying to suggest caution in what you are planning to do. It's all from an outside perspective.
As an example, have you ever had a friend who really liked a guy, but you could see what a jerk he really was and knew he'd treat your friend horribly? (I'm not saying this is your therapist at all!!!) You would tell her that she should be careful or stay way, right? Your friend might say that you don't know what you're talking about, but that would be because she is blind with love. That is why I think someone like LipGloss can say what he/she did. It's an outside perspective. We are often blind to things when we are in the middle of the circumstance.
Just be careful and think it through. No one here wants to see you get hurt by this. Have you talked to him about boundaries and how far is ok for you to go? That might be the best discussion before doing something with your panties. ;-)
Posted by happyflower on November 26, 2005, at 21:20:13
In reply to Re: In the home stretch now/panties, yes/LOL » happyflower, posted by allisonross on November 26, 2005, at 16:40:21
I was only joking, but since that isn't excepted anymore,and some people are getting offended, well I will leave the boards so the more respectable people who are so perfect can preach to someone else. I am done here.
I will keep my babble mail open for a few days if any one of my babble friends want to keep in touch, I will give you my regular email, but I am done on the boards. So long, it was fun while it lasted and I appreciate all the SUPPORT I received, but wow, can't anyone take a joke anymore? Good bye, I will have my fun elsewhere.
Posted by Voce on November 26, 2005, at 22:47:42
In reply to just forget I ever said anything, posted by happyflower on November 26, 2005, at 21:20:13
I hope you decide to stay, it would be terrible to lose you.
I'm sorry that you don't feel supported here, and I hope you realize that people DO care about you. You are a smart woman and I know you are making a joke when you say things, and quite frankly, it's refreshing to have some humor put to a subject (therapy) which is usually full of angst. I personally wouldn't joke about my panties to my T, but then again I'm not as terribly brave or confident as you are, my dear. I hope you stick around.....sorry you feel hurt.
Voce
Posted by LipGloss on November 26, 2005, at 23:37:35
In reply to just forget I ever said anything, posted by happyflower on November 26, 2005, at 21:20:13
The only one who seems to be offended here Happyflower is you.
Joking around is fine, but it seems that the things you have said about yout intentions towards your T in so many posts suggest you are not just joking.
You're pretty upset that some of us are shining the bright light of reality on this situation.I know it feels nicer to be massaged into the hopeful fantasy.
Better you be mad at me than hurt by some action you take that could have grave consequences in many peoples lives.
I am being a friend. I know it dosn't seem like that. But I want you to know that I have some first hand experience with this type of situation and would like to save you the heartache.
My wish for you is that you can find the type of deep and true love that you deserve. That your T will be able to help you to grow in a way that will help you reach that place.
That you will see that having true love for your T means not trying to take from him or his family.I wish I could make the yearning that you suffer go away.
By the way, I'm a girl and I have a male T.
LipGloss
Posted by Voce on November 27, 2005, at 2:00:48
In reply to Re: just forget I ever said anything, posted by LipGloss on November 26, 2005, at 23:37:35
Welcome to Babble, Lip Gloss. I hope you find many friends and much support here.
I can see from your post that you care about happyflower and want her to avoid hurt and pain. It appears that you feel strongly about this situation, and it sounds like you have an interesting story of your own to tell about therapy. I would be interested to hear it if you every feel comfortable posting it.
Here on the boards, we try to be as supportive as we can to all posters, even if they have made a decision that we disagree with. There is not much we can do to try to pursuade others to do what we think is best. Learning to accept and love others, even when they do things that I cannot condone, has been a good lesson for me both on and off this board.
I am not making specific comments about happyflower's situation--this is just general commentary. I do not know Happyflower personally, or her T, but it appears from what she has posted that he has helped her a lot. Beyond that, I can't really say much, but I certainly hope that her T is open to discussing her feelings. After all, more burden lies with our T's to protect us.
That is just my $.02.
Voce
Posted by Shortelise on November 27, 2005, at 12:39:49
In reply to Re: just forget I ever said anything » LipGloss, posted by Voce on November 27, 2005, at 2:00:48
Forgive me for jumping in feet first into others' coversation.
I just want to say that I respect both Lipgloss and Voce for what they are saying.
Lipgloss, I trust that Happyflower's T has a handle on what's going on with her, and he'll help her through it. It's good to hear your "voice of reason", saying what you see as the truth in a gentle way. I personally need that truth from people sometimes, and I count on the people here to tell me.
Voce, I love that you point out that we are supportive of each other. I see nothing in Lipgloss's posts that are unuspportive, but obviously both you and Happyflower do, and your care for her is so reassuring.
There is so much care here. It warms me, and I hope this contretemps doesn't leave hurt feelings. Happyflower, really, I trust that you are on a journey of healing with your T, and that you can talk with him about all these feelings. You are so rich with emotion!
Hugs to all
ShortE
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 12:54:48
In reply to Re: just forget I ever said anything » LipGloss, posted by Voce on November 27, 2005, at 2:00:48
Yes, I have feelings for my T and I believe he has feelings for me also. It is very clear to see them, I am not delusional, I am not just wishful thinking either. I am a very realistic person, and don't live in a fantasy world. Some of you who have listened to my story since March, knows most of the story. I appreciate all the fun and support this site has given me. But now it is time to move on.
We all know about the bad client therapist relationships that have happened, but I am sure we don't know as much about the positive ones either. If this kind of thing didn't happen, there wouldn't be rules about it. This isn't anything new.
I believe we were meant to be together, whether friends or something more. We do share a special bond, it is very evident. These feelings are not just one sided. You all have read my posts about what has been said and done since this January. But what you don't know is what you can't see. A women knows when a man is in love with them, they can't hide it.As far as his marriage and mine, it isn't my job to respect his marriage, it is his job. It is his descision on what to do about that. I have to decided about my marriage too.
I am not just a love sick teenager, I am a grown women in my late 30's who has been married for over 12 years now, and have two kids. I know what real love is, I have had it in my life.I didn't enter therapy because I was totally screwed up person, I have lived a very normal adult life. I think this is key, because he can't do real damage to me, if I was okay to begin with. I don't think he would be attracted to me if I wasn't somewhat level headed and was totally screwed up.
If my relationship continues, I will respect the rules of them, to protect me and him. Yes, I could get hurt, but you can get hurt by anyone in any relationship.
But I just can't let this chance of real happiness to pass me by because client and therapist relationships are taboo. I need to follow my heart, I will be okay, even if my heart gets broken. I didn't believe in soul mates , until now that I feel it. If you can't wish me well, then I don't need your judgmental views. I am following my heart.
I dearly love a lot of people here who have been so wonderful, and I will miss you. If you want to keep in touch, please babble mail me, and I will give you my email address. Thank you for all your support, support is so important, I am glad there is this site for that. Please try to be happy for me, because I am the happiest I have ever been. I have truely found that special person who could make my happiness even better.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2005, at 13:42:34
In reply to Re: just forget I ever said anything, posted by LipGloss on November 26, 2005, at 23:37:35
> The only one who seems to be offended here Happyflower is you.
>
> it seems that the things you have said about yout intentions towards your T in so many posts suggest you are not just joking.
>
> You're pretty upset that some of us are shining the bright light of reality on this situation.
>
> I am being a friend. I know it dosn't seem like that.Please respect the views of others even if you think they're wrong. Please be sensitive to their feelings. Please don't pressure them.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above post, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 15:15:12
In reply to I am going to follow my heart, posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 12:54:48
> Yes, I have feelings for my T and I believe he has feelings for me also. It is very clear to see them, I am not delusional, I am not just wishful thinking either. I am a very realistic person, and don't live in a fantasy world.
That might well be the case. But... We aren't compelled to act on feelings that we have - are we?
> We all know about the bad client therapist relationships that have happened, but I am sure we don't know as much about the positive ones either.
That may well be true. But then if they did work out... Wouldn't you think that people would come and post about it here?
> If this kind of thing didn't happen, there wouldn't be rules about it. This isn't anything new.
Yeah, it happens. And the reason why there are rules about it is because it tends to end badly. There are similar rules about doctors and patients, about teachers and students, and about church leaders and members of the congregation. What do these have in common? One person is in a position of POWER or AUTHORITY and hence... Transference feelings develop.
> I believe we were meant to be together, whether friends or something more.Ah. Destiny or fate. No point trying to resist that then...
> We do share a special bond, it is very evident. These feelings are not just one sided.
Okay. Lets suppose that is true. That doesn't mean you have to act on it.
> But what you don't know is what you can't see. A women knows when a man is in love with them, they can't hide it.
Okay, so lets suppose he is in love with you...
So what? You still don't have to act on it.> As far as his marriage and mine, it isn't my job to respect his marriage, it is his job.
Do you really believe this?
I have had relationships with married men.
Thats how I justified it too.
Try to remember that when his wife / his kids see you in the street one day and you get the inevitable 'homewrecker' compliment.But its okay because you guys are in love and are destined to be together... No point fighting destiny...
> I am not just a love sick teenager, I am a grown women in my late 30's who has been married for over 12 years now, and have two kids. I know what real love is, I have had it in my life.
And how much does that 12 years mean to you,
How much are you thinking of your husband and your children when you are prepared to throw that all away just like that?
> I didn't enter therapy because I was totally screwed up person, I have lived a very normal adult life.So why were you in therapy again?
> he can't do real damage to me, if I was okay to begin with.
Sorry, but that is not true, that is not true at all.
> I don't think he would be attracted to me if I wasn't somewhat level headed and was totally screwed up.
You might want to believe that, but have you ever heard of a little thing called a 'rescue fantasy'? Because that typically is what is going on when therapists / doctors / teachers / church leaders get too involved...
> Yes, I could get hurt, but you can get hurt by anyone in any relationship.But how messed up are you going to feel if things end badly and you end up feeling used and abused and like you threw away your 12 years of marriage for someone who took advantage of your transference feelings? I imagine... That will mess you up very much indeed. And you will have major issues with abuse of trust thereafter.
> But I just can't let this chance of real happiness to pass me by because client and therapist relationships are taboo.Any thoughts on WHY it is taboo???
> I didn't believe in soul mates , until now that I feel it.
Think your way back...
Did you ever feel that for your husband?
Therapy...
A very intense relationship.
He focuses all his attention on you for the time when you are with him.
You are the sole object of his concern.
Your welfare is the only thing on the agenda.
Who wouldn't fall in love under those circumstances?
But if you think that can be sustained in the real world...
Fact is that it can't.
Sorry... But the world doesn't work that way.
If you are determined about this...
I would suggest you go about this appropriately.
The guidelines are there for a reason.
To stop people acting on transference which can be really very harmful and destructive, ultimately.
If you really are determined to do this...
I would suggest...1) He can't be your therapist anymore. So... You need to terminate. You can't see him in therapy any more. In fact, you can't see him at all for two years.
2) You should probably find yourself another therapist to talk through some of this stuff (there shouldn't be a problem here because he hasn't done anything unethical). And you probably have stuff to work on? Or perhaps you think he has cured you already?
3) Write him or phone him or something. Tell him how you feel. Tell him that you want to be with him... And give him your number so he can call you in two years if he is still interested. And then... You can catch up if you still feel interested in him too.
If you are meant to be together...
Then surely you will still be meant to be together in two years.Good luck.
Posted by Dinah on November 27, 2005, at 15:16:41
In reply to I am going to follow my heart, posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 12:54:48
and unsupported.
I hope that you always feel comfortable coming here about anything you feel comfortable discussing. But I understand not wanting to talk about certain issues. Believe it or not (smile) there are issues that I don't feel comfortable discussing on board because they appear to make people feel uncomfortable, or the general feedback doesn't mesh well with how I feel about the topic. I think that's ok too.
It doesn't have to be either/or. And I hope you are able to find a comfortable balance for you, if that's what's best for you. But I understand if it's not.
I will miss your presence and your input and your caring support for everyone on the board.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 15:35:21
In reply to Re: you are going to follow your transference » happyflower, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 15:15:12
because if you don't do that...
i hope you appreciate that he will lose his lisence to practice.
so if you really care about him...
<sigh>
look.
i'm sorry if you think i'm giving you a hard time...
i have gotten into trouble about giving someone in a similar position to yourself a hard time about this before.anybody know how fallen4myT is doing?
i appreciate that it can be really very hard.
but yeah, i think people are being 'harsh' because they are concerned.
but... yeah, there probably isn't any point.
you will just think we don't understand... and it isn't transference it is love...
and that really people are just jealous...but i am worried.
and of course all of this might just defuse anyway...
if you talk to him and he says he cares about you as a client - and thats all.
or if you talk to him and he says that he needs to pass you on to someone else because he feels the same way.but seriously...
i think people are worried about you.
it is terrific that you think you are better and doing really well.
it would be terrific if things stay that way...take care.
sorry if i was too harsh.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 16:42:45
In reply to just forget I ever said anything, posted by happyflower on November 26, 2005, at 21:20:13
> I was only joking,
I think that maybe what is hard about it is that you are talking about a human being here. You (and others) might well think it is amusing to joke about this...
But aren't you just encouraging yourself in something that is likely to cause you great pain ultimately?
Why is this funny?
Sorry, but I'm having trouble here...
Maybe it is a joke to you...
Have you thought about him at all?
I mean...
If you really care about him...
Aren't you concerned that if anything does happen between you that he will lose his lisence to practice?
That you could be the end of his career?
That you could damage his reputation irrevokably if you were to do what you are joking about?
Is that the kind of thing you would wish upon your 'soul mate'?Don't you think...
That if you were together that over time you would come to worry about what he is up to with his current clients?
That after 12 years of being with him you know that he could very well just up and leave having found another 'soul mate' in another client?I know you said you think you are living in reality, you aren't caught up in a fantasy at all...
But how much have you thought about the reality?
How much have you respected him as a person in your joking around?This really is a serious matter...
I hope you stick around.
People really are worried about the both of you.But maybe...
Things really have gone too far.
With all the joking around you have started to talk yourself into something...
With all the joking around you are becoming a very real threat to his professional practice and his reputation...You might want to think about that...
And think about that with respect to whether you really do love him as a person, or whether you are indulging some fantasy here.
It really isn't... A joking matter.
Posted by fallsfall on November 27, 2005, at 20:15:13
In reply to In the home stretch now, posted by happyflower on November 26, 2005, at 16:06:01
Hi Happyflower,
I think I'm worried about something different from what other people are worried about. From what you've said, I think that your therapist is a good therapist. I think that the boundaries are bending a little, but you did a post a while ago that makes me feel confident that your therapist will do the right things for you. You said:
>My T says... that you can't help who you fall in love with. He has also said that you fall in love with someone who fills your needs at the moment, maybe not someone for the rest of your life. My T says you can't control your feelings or thoughts.
So if he has feelings for me, he couldn't help it right? But you can control your actions, he says, which is right. So I don't know what I am trying to say but could it be possible for a T to fall in really fall in love with a client? Now I know it is his job to control his actions and he is, but couldn't my T be in love with me? Could it happen after all I am so lovable and irrestritable! LOLOf course you are lovable and irresitable! And it IS possible that your therapist is in love with you. But it is ALSO possible that, even if he is in love with you, that he will control his actions. That would mean that he could have feelings for you, but require the relationship to stay as a therapist/patient relationship. And it could mean that he would not tell you of his feelings, because telling you might not be in your best interest, or in the best interest of your therapy.
I guess I'm worried that he will maintain the boundaries (which I think I expect him to do), and that THAT will be very hard for you to accept. And I'm afraid that the longer you wait to talk to him about this, the deeper your feelings will be, and the harder it will be if he does maintain the boundaries. So I guess that I hope that you will talk to him soon, so that you can be grounded in reality.
Maybe I'm projecting here, because I know that I have a tendency to get started in some direction, and that direction seems to take on a life of its own. And I'm happily skipping down a particular path. But then I hit a reality check and I find out that one of my most basic assumptions wasn't true. And it would have been a lot easier for me to know that at the beginning before I put so much time and effort and energy into skipping down the path. Plus, when that reality check comes, if I've gone a long way down the path I get wicked, wicked embarassed ("I should have known better...", "How could I have thought that..."). This is one reason I'm so glad that I can see my therapist 3/week. Because that doesn't give me time to get too far down any path before I check in with him.
So, I hope you can talk to him soon about this. And I hope that you know that we are here, if you need us.
Falls.
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 21:07:11
In reply to Re: just forget I ever said anything, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 16:42:45
About the underware joke, it was a joke, he took it as a joke, so it isn't a big deal as some of you are taking it. We were earlier in our session talking about what happens at some rock concerts. Sometimes women throw their underware at the performers. Since I was performing and he was going to go, but couldn't, I just said, as a joke, well I will have to find somebody else to throw my underware at. It was funny and we both laughed. He didn't take it anyway other than a joke. I still think it was funny.
Posted by sleepygirl on November 27, 2005, at 21:14:34
In reply to Re: just forget I ever said anything » alexandra_k, posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 21:07:11
Hi happyflower! Good! you came back.
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 21:27:13
In reply to Re: you are going to follow your transference » happyflower, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 15:15:12
> > > And how much does that 12 years mean to you,
> How much are you thinking of your husband and your children when you are prepared to throw that all away just like that?First of all, I am not the one who has ruined my marriage, it was my DH. I can't make somebody want and love me if they don't want to. He is the one who has "left" emotionally and sexually from the marriage.
> > I didn't enter therapy because I was totally screwed up person, I have lived a very normal adult life.
>
> So why were you in therapy again?I was in therapy (for the first and only time) because I was suffering from PTSD because of my mother. She threaten to abduct my kids. She was a very sick person. I was abused so badly from her, it freaked me out, when she started to send unmarked packages to my house to my kids. The whole story is in the archives. I was in therapy because of my past. I was doing fine in the present, until my mother starting to make death threats and stuff like that. That freaked me out, and I think it wouldl freak anyone out. Anyone can suffer from PTSD at any time in there life.
You haven't told me anything I haven't read myself or heard. I feel you are being hard on me, it seems like you are talking down to me or something. I think you are getting way too carried away. You are treating me like I am totally stupid or something, like I never even heard of transference.
I think I "got" you view of things. Some things I agree with you , but you a little uninformed about some of the details in my current situation.
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 21:32:59
In reply to I'm sorry you're feeling hurt » happyflower, posted by Dinah on November 27, 2005, at 15:16:41
Thanks Dinah,
I now know how you feel. After today posts, I think I will just leave anyways. I might still read some of the posts and reply through babble mail, but about my therapy situation, I don't feel comfortable at all in posting anything.
I know who is really there for my support, and those who are just harshly judging me. Thank you Dinah, I feel you have supported me through out my therapy journey. I wish you the best of luck in your journey.
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 21:40:19
In reply to Re: In the home stretch now » happyflower, posted by fallsfall on November 27, 2005, at 20:15:13
Yes, my T is a very good T and probably he won't want to stir up things in order to be with me. This is what I am 80% expecting him to do. We would just see each other socially at the gym and say hi, and chat a little. If he deceides that this is all he is willing to do, it will hurt a little I am sure, but I will respect his decision. I will be okay with it. I am not blindly looking into this, I am looking at all sides of it. My life will not be devestated if I don't become romantically involved with my T. I am okay, and I will be okay in either way things turn out. I do know a lot about him, but not enough to put my whole life on hold for him right now. I think after my divorse, I plan to date others too.
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 21:41:56
In reply to Re: In the home stretch now » happyflower, posted by LadyBug on November 26, 2005, at 16:18:51
Thanks Lady Bug for "getting" the joke and not taking it too seriously. LOL Yikes! I say!
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 21:46:22
In reply to Re: just forget I ever said anything » happyflower, posted by sleepygirl on November 27, 2005, at 21:14:34
> Hi happyflower! Good! you came back.
Thanks sleepygirl. I only going to post for a couple of days about this. I had to defend my self a little, things seem to be way out of control. I will still be around offering others support, but I won't be posting about my stuff. Of course you can always babble mail me, and I will let you know when the wedding is! LOL Oh, goodness, sh*t is going to hit the fan again! LOL :)
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 21:52:54
In reply to Re: In the home stretch now/panties, yes/LOL » happyflower, posted by allisonross on November 26, 2005, at 16:40:21
Hey Ally , just wanted to say hi and thank you for your lightness. I think it is needed around the boards lately. I will email ya later! I hope your therapy went well tonight! Did you throw your undies at him tonight? LOL Opps, I better duck! THIS IS A JOKE!
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 22:01:29
In reply to Angry flower :-( » happyflower, posted by Voce on November 26, 2005, at 22:47:42
Thanks Voce,(messavoce? right?)
Yeah, I am surprised by the very strong views and the lack of humor. Everyone who knows me, knows I kid around a lot.
When did everyone become such an expert? LOL I am okay, I will still offer support to others, but my therapy is going to stay private. It seems to offend too many people. Thank you! :)
Posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 22:05:19
In reply to Re: you are going to follow your transference » alexandra_k, posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 21:27:13
I'm sorry that you felt I was talking down to you. I most certainly did not mean to sound that way, and I do not look down on you at all.
Just trying to get you thinking is all...
Fantasy vs reality...
Something to think about.
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 22:09:17
In reply to Re: Angry flower :-(, posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 22:01:29
Posted by happyflower on November 27, 2005, at 22:13:48
In reply to Re: you are going to follow your transference » happyflower, posted by alexandra_k on November 27, 2005, at 22:05:19
>> Just trying to get you thinking is all...
>
> Fantasy vs reality...
>
> Something to think about.
>I have thought a lot about all of this, reseached the rules, the negative outcomes, I have looked at the positive and the negative. I am still thinking about it, I am not taking it lightly. Nothing might not even come out of all of this too, I am prepared for that too. Thanks for your concern, but could you be a little more gentler about it? I do have feelings too.
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