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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2005, at 13:12:36
My first husband was one of those men with a lot of secrets. He was a bit mentally unbalanced, and he claimed to have experienced a lot of stuff with women. When I met him he had a display of photos on his bedroom wall, pics of him and his last ex-, who was a bosomy model, some of the pictures were extremely, Very Very seductive poses. He had them up for quite a while before I let him know it was a bit insensitive of him. Then he took them down but he had a lot of them ... and he was emotionally unavailable to every, he lied about things and he withheld; there was a complete imbalance to our relationship that really destroyed me. I became extremely thin and nervous and insecure.
My ex-T terminated me because my transference was too strong. I believe now, with the feelings I'm having about this ex-T, that my transference was really all about this power imbalance. I believe my ex-T could have helped me had he the insight, tact, and willingness to do so. I believe he knows he hurt me badly.. he must, I've said so many times since. He completely cut me off... completely. He said I could write him asking about my therapy, and he would answer, but all he's ever answered is that he won't be my therapist for the reasons he's already given. Which were that my transference is too strong. It's like an endless circle of deceit, he keeps going around and around in this tight little protective circle, and I really resent the hell out of him for doing this. He should know the power imbalance and the effect that can have. He should know to be honest, and he refuses to disclose anything. THe most he's ever said is "I couldn't be objective" .. he said that once. I'm beginning to understand how his self-protectiveness means more to him than anything else. I'm beginning to realize he's willing to have me hurt and go nowhere, in order to maintain his own equilibrium. I'm understanding that he too is a selfish human being and his profession doesn't exclude him from making mistakes; but the mistakes he makes have a bigger impact than most. I realize also that he doesn't want too much responsibility. In many ways he's so much like my first ex-husband, he's acting like him so much, that he actually made my transference worse. Transference that could have been used to good purpose, that could have helped me. Now I'm so totally and completely afraid of this ever happening again that I refuse to see another therapist who could do this to me again. I suffered for years with Brian, my ex-husband, now I've suffered for almost two years with this professional who was to have helped me, whose job was to get at the truth .. I know his type well, he's a poser. He's an actor. He holds doors, and behaves gentlemanly, but underneath it's all "Look at me, world, look at how wonderful I truly am, and I help people, too, I'm a Therapist" ... I was totally taken in by it too. His air of self-confidence got me believing he had confidence in me, too, and that I could be an equal.
But I couldn't.
I never could, and he was the only one who always knew that.
And proved it, in the end.
I want to hate him, but I don't know him well enough to do that.
I believed I was in love with him, but I never knew him well enough for that, either.
The only one who was ever known, was me.
He knew me.
Some part of me that I should've kept secret.
He had no right to know.
Anything.
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2005, at 16:22:58
In reply to Transference?, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2005, at 13:12:36
And further I was a fool and an idiot and I still am :( and somehow I need to get over myself and get on with it.
Posted by crazy teresa on July 23, 2005, at 16:38:53
In reply to Re: Transference?, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2005, at 16:22:58
Susan47,
Belittling yourself accomplishes nothing good. You are not a fool nor were you an idiot.
Would having a woman T help you? Then you wouldn't transfer your feelings about these men to her and you could get down to business to work through it? I'm so sorry you have to deal with these issues.
Wish I could help you feel better!
teresa
Posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2005, at 23:18:17
In reply to Re: Transference? » Susan47, posted by crazy teresa on July 23, 2005, at 16:38:53
I'm thinking about that. I'm thinking about going back to this woman who does the EMDR... I seem to be easily triggered and I'm thinking because of that maybe EMDR is a good way for me to go, although I admit it seems a bit childish for some reason. Maybe because it feels simplistic.. but that doesn't mean it won't work. Thinking my way out of things doesn't help, I'm not a direct enough thinker, and I'm pretty certain I have some form of ADD. I'm also forgetful, I'm now off my MJ though and I'm feeling good about that.. but I admit I miss the high of feeling loved. I was on MJ when I fell "in love" with my last male therapist, and so sometimes those feelings come flooding back ... I really do miss them. And when they come back I feel so much sorrow, thinking none of them might have been real. They were wonderful. I don't know why drugs induce such wonderful feelings if none of them are real... surely the feelings come from somewhere. But I know that under the influence I don't think clearly, I make a lot of errors in calculation etc. What feels "right" when I'm under the influence can be very wrong IRL. And the truth is I did transfer very strongly to this therapist, and the transference was from some very bad, heavy emotional stuff. And I'm still transferring, even out of the relationship with the ex-T, and sometimes I still completely lose my sense of rationality, and I phone and rage at the machine. I really am sometimes a shameful, shameful mess. I'm embarrassed by my own behaviour, and yet I can hide it when I need to, i.e. at work or with friends. Alone, I don't feel I have to, I give in to my emotions, I let myself fall to pieces, but because I hate to be alone, I reach for the telephone to hear the voice, to be recorded, even if he erases and doesn't listen, I don't care. I just need some contact, no matter how false. I am so completely f*cked. I hate what this therapist allowed to happen. I wish he could help me. I wish he would even try. I think I have to come to some real conclusions that will be helpful to me. I'm working my butt off right now but as soon as I have some time, I may make the decision to go back into some type of therapy. I think I need to. Just to be happy. "Happy" is such a simple word .. h-a-p-p-y ... it isn't simple to achieve though.
Posted by crazy teresa on July 23, 2005, at 23:37:28
In reply to Re: Transference?, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2005, at 23:18:17
I'm sorry, I don't know what EMDR is.
Do know what? You deserve a real, honest, equal relationship with someone. And you'll have that with someone when the time is right.
Even seeing this woman T you refered to a few times may help greatly if you vent and get what your exT did out in the open with someone IRL. Work is not more important than you are!!! Mother Teresa says: "Get your butt back in there!" ;~}
Honestly, happy is over-rated and short-lived. I'm going for contentment.
Posted by fairywings on July 24, 2005, at 14:32:03
In reply to Transference?, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2005, at 13:12:36
Hi Susan,
I tried to respond to you yesterday, but I couldn't get my password working. I'm just appalled that there are Ts out there who handle stuff like this so poorly. Why are they even doing therapy with people, when they just make issues worse?! I'm so sorry for all you've been through. I hope you do find a good female T who can be understanding and supportive, or that you find EMDR to be helpful.
FW
Posted by pinkeye on July 24, 2005, at 14:42:15
In reply to Re: Transference?, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2005, at 23:18:17
Hi Susan,
I can really understand what you have written.. I am there myself many days too.!!!I don't know how to heal either from all the ruminations that happen in my head.. Being ashamed of myself, and trying desperately to get some little bit of approval and understanding from my ex T - and him being a complete black box, and not giving me any approval - I have been there. I sometimes so desperately longed for little bit of understanding and warmth and affection from him - hoping at least once he would write me a very detailed and approving email. But of course he never did. He did approve me when I saw him face to face long before, but I need it constantly.. I needed to be told again and again I am worthy, and I am good, that he liked me and that I am a good person.. I really needed that very badly - possibly due to intense lack of self acceptance. But of course he never gave me that.. Instead I think he got defensive, and thought I was being a nuisance I suppose - and he gave me the exact opposite - he said in the final termination email - "There is no question of me liking you or disliking you. I have been trying to be of help, and that is why I write this mail even this day.. You do not have to like or dislike someone to help them when requested".. Well, that was a death blow to my sense of self - All along I clung to a little bit of hope that he liked me, and him saying no to that, was a final collapsing thing for any sort of self acceptance I had.. I finally thought maybe I am not good at all, and I am not totally worthy of being loved or liked by anyone - not even my T.. I must be really really horrible for someone to say that to me in the final termination email.. (I am crying now as I write this).. That is why I have completely collapsed in the past 6 months.. and why I find it so hard to move on, and so desperately hurt - because of even the basic lack of self liking I suppose. I wished so desperately that my ex T would like me, so I could somehow transfer that liking to myself toward myself.. But till the end, I never got that approval I needed from him.
In a way, the same thing applies to you I guess. I think that is the reason why both of us hurt so badly over our ex Ts. Lacking this basic sense of self approval and self liking.. And perhaps both our ex Ts made the same mistake of being a complete black box, and not giving us what we needed so very badly to heal. They somehow chose to withhold their approval, and possibly it is because of some negative counter transference on their part.. and though we didn't perhaps do anything to deserve it, I guess we have to learn to somehow live with it, and heal ourselves without their support.. I have written to him 4 - 5 times after termination - intensely seeking some form of approval, and recognition or little bit of understanding and love, but of course, I didn't get any. And just like your therapist, my therapist also doesn't want to have anything to do with me. And it hurts really really badly.
Going to a woman T has helped me somewhat.. writing here helps me somewhat.. praying to God for some approval helps most of the time. Meditation also helps.. Maybe you can try some of this.
And I am trying to stay away from judging my ex T - he really tried to help me in the way he knew best. And your T also I think is basically a decent person - just that they don't know how to help people like us I suppose. And what you have written about your T being outwardly gentlemanly - everyone in the world needs approval, and if your T tries to get it by doing some good things, then I think that is fine. I wouldn't judge a person badly because they need some approval themselves - so far that they atleast try to get it by doing somethign good.
Posted by rabidreader on July 25, 2005, at 16:00:44
In reply to Withholding of approval from Ts and how it hurts.. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on July 24, 2005, at 14:42:15
I can relate to all these posts, even though my T and I aren't quite terminated yet. The yearning for approval over and over again...never being satisfied with what they asy, needing so much more...it all rings true.
My T is also gentlemanly, I have always loved that about him and thought his mama raised him up right. It is part of his personality and I treasure that.
Well, girls, that said, how in the heck are we going to get over these guys?
Posted by Declan on July 25, 2005, at 20:10:22
In reply to Transference?, posted by Susan47 on July 23, 2005, at 13:12:36
Your therapists behaviour sounds outrageous. You didn't say how long you had seen him for before he terminated treatment. But if he had taken you on as a patient he had a moral/ethical responsibility to see it through, meaning that it takes as long as it takes. Especially so if there was strong transferance. Dealing with that is what it's all about.
As a rough and general rule I think female therapists (who aren't doctors) are likely to be better, at least mine was.
Declan
Posted by Susan47 on July 25, 2005, at 22:07:05
In reply to Re: Transference? » Susan47, posted by fairywings on July 24, 2005, at 14:32:03
Thanks. I think I'm just really messed up. Plus I just have to accept that this therapist said good-bye, ciao, adios, whatever ... I need to let go, completely. Letting go feels like falling off a cliff though, and I don't know why. It's why I still have a few fingers grabbing on ... I just am so frightened. It feels like this therapist forgets about me, if I am forgotten, I feel like I might wither and die. It's a very strong feeling. Maybe that's transference? I don't know. I think I'm an idiot. I know I really must be. This is really stupid, to feel this way about a virtual stranger. There was a time I didn't feel like he was, though. There was a time when I really felt close to him, which is crazy, it's nuts really. I wish I'd never met this therapist. But then if I hadn't I might not have had the courage to step out and change my life, which needed changing. I wish he hadn't kicked me off the cliff. Now he's just stepping on my fingers ... that's how it feels. He wants me to fall. Maybe if I do, it won't be so bad? I just wish I knew there was someone else there, that I could fly with again. Sigh. This is so heavy, it's so sad and so much to bear.
Posted by Susan47 on July 25, 2005, at 22:22:07
In reply to Withholding of approval from Ts and how it hurts.. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on July 24, 2005, at 14:42:15
I couldn't be a therapist. I don't know how they do it. I would feel too much pressure to be kind all the time, to be unjudgmental. Maybe your therapist is even dead now, do you think that's possible? Because you and I had a life before our therapists, a life that never included them at all, and somehow, we managed to live a little. We managed to like ourselves at times, didn't we? I think I did. Before we ever met these men, we didn't know of their existence. They didn't matter. Somehow maybe we can get back to that liberty. Just because I liked so many things about this man, just because I appreciated who he acted as, doesn't mean he really is that person. It doesn't mean he really is deep, it doesn't mean he cared about me more than anybody else ever did. His judgement of me has undoubtedly been, at times, (perhaps many), unflattering. But he didn't necessarily always tell me that. And the therapy relationship is for the most part I believe, set up so that the therapist needs to be supportive .. he's dealing with damaged goods and the only way to heal some of the damage is with kindness. So it's most likely his kindness I loved. And that's hard to let go of. It's hard when someone who was kind to you, suddenly draws away. It feels like a negative judgment. We don't know why they pulled away, not really. It doesn't really matter, either. We'll never know. Maybe when we die, you know, that moment of death when you supposedly "understand" everything. Maybe that's what we have to wait for ... and by that time I may not care anymore. Which would be a relief.
Posted by Susan47 on July 25, 2005, at 22:28:21
In reply to Re: Withholding of approval from Ts and how it hur, posted by rabidreader on July 25, 2005, at 16:00:44
an Actor, because therapists have their work persona. I'm pretty sure it's built into them during training. So that they never really lose it, even IRL. It doesn't mean they actually are better people .. or maybe they are, because maybe that's part of being a therapist. I don't know. I just wish they weren't so easily lovable. And I wish we didn't feel so unlovable. At least, if a therapist could finish what s/he started .. I believe there should actually be a written contract, you know? Something you absolutely have to abide by, clear boundaries. That would avoid a lot of this messiness. My therapist clearly should have known better; he's a well put-together male and just by virtue of his career path he's been through a lot of female "transference" as he calls it ... men don't understand their own power, and I'm wondering if perhaps they end up abusing it by choosing to remain ignorant.
Posted by Susan47 on July 25, 2005, at 22:30:08
In reply to Re: Transference?, posted by Declan on July 25, 2005, at 20:10:22
Yes.
Posted by pinkeye on July 26, 2005, at 13:21:29
In reply to Pinkeye, posted by Susan47 on July 25, 2005, at 22:22:07
Susan -
The one thing that I understood is to recover from this intense attachment and problems with Ts, the key is to somehow find a way to approve ourselves.. Nowadays, (not that long, just the past few days), I unconditionally approve of myself.. I tell myself I am a wonderful person, I am good, I am worthy.. And when I can't see the goodness in me, I try to imagine everyone else in the world - all the wicked people, murderers, rapists and think - well, if they can live happily, so can I. And days when even that fails, I turn to God to approve me - and think HE must love all his kids and so he would love me also..
And I try to think of my therapist's own problems in life.. Luckily I know some of his family's history, and I know some of the ugly things he has had to deal with in his life.. So I think after all he is also a human, and he has the same problems like I do, and who is he to approve of me? How could he alone be any better? And he isn't better than me - really. He was perhaps little more knowledgeable early on, or perhaps he learnt things from his own suffering, and I am sure he is a good person - but He is not God. He cannot be perfect. And I think why would a person with faults be the one to approve of me??
The key is to find some ways to like yourself.. And feel good about yourself. Don't judge yourself too much. Let Go of judging yourself and others.. Everybody copes up with life in the way they know best at that given time.. And try to be good to yourself and to others and if you can, develop some faith in God.. That is the only way you can gain some sense of self worth and then you will be able to let go of this T instead of hanging on..
Posted by Susan47 on July 26, 2005, at 22:45:21
In reply to The key to recovery is to start approving yourself » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on July 26, 2005, at 13:21:29
Yes. The key is to keep those positive thoughts moment to moment. I think. My way of thinking about myself is an ingrained habit, and it most frequently defeats me.
Posted by pinkeye on July 27, 2005, at 13:47:00
In reply to Re: The key to recovery is to start approving yourself » pinkeye, posted by Susan47 on July 26, 2005, at 22:45:21
From my experience, you really cannot have positive thoughts about yourself when you are attempting to get healed.. It just fails all the time. One day, you feel wonderful, and the next day we go back to the dumps again.. First step is to get rid of the negative thoughts and being non negative. (atleast from my experience, trying to be non negative works better than trying to be positive - If I can't tell myself I am wonderful, atleast I can manage to tell myself I am not that crappy - that is much easier for me)
Posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2005, at 23:57:14
In reply to It is not being positive it is being non negative » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on July 27, 2005, at 13:47:00
Telling myself I'm wonderful is just going too far. Telling myself I have some good qualities is closer to the truth. Focussing on what those good things are does make me feel better. But the courage to live like everyone else seems to be doing, sometimes escapes me and I don't really understand why. I don't like going anywhere alone, for example. I feel.. exposed, a snail with no shell.
Posted by pinkeye on July 28, 2005, at 18:51:12
In reply to Re: It is not being positive it is being non negative, posted by Susan47 on July 27, 2005, at 23:57:14
The reason why you find it so difficult is perhaps you are holding very high standards for judging yourself...
After all, you haven't done any of the supposed crimes.. stealing, raping, murdering.. Maybe you had drug issues, and maybe some issues with your appearance, and some issues with your dad. And you are so extremely dependant on your T.. And possibly you have been harsh towards people. But these are not something that makes a person bad.. Why do you feel you are so unworthy?? I have known people who have been good for nothing throughout their lives, never earned any money, have been so extremely spiteful and make everybody's lives miserable, people who wreak havoc in other people's live - if they can live happily and think of themselves as great, why can't you??
I think you just need to lower your standars, and accept that human beings are just conscious animals, and nothing more.. Mabye we have little bit of a soul and self judgement, but don't take it to an extreme.
This is the end of the thread.
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