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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 27. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 16:26:29
I can't even begin to count the numbers of times that I've assured posters in despair that depressive thoughts have a feel of permanency but they aren't permanent- that with regard to suicide, those feelings are going to go away.
Now being in that position, I realize how hollow all of that sounds. My T keeps reminding me that I've come out of other episodes before, and all of that is true although it's been a long time since I've felt as bad as I do for as long period of time.
I really think the more relevant question for me is not whether I'll feel differently at some point in the future, but when and at what price? If I knew, for instance, that I'd only feel this way for another month, that might be one thing, but if I knew it would be another year, I'm sure I couldn't make it. And by the time the worst is over, where will I be professionally, and how much will I have cost my family in loss of income etc? Will I be able to continue working? Will I have a job left? Will I be able to stay out of the hospital (frankly I think I'd rather die)? When you have a disease for which there is no absolute cure and which can make you so miserable, it's very hard living with the concept that you can't know what the future holds - even the comparatively short term future.
And it's also difficult not being able to see how I'll get better. Will I have to go through months of new meds trials, something I suffer through poorly, or will therapy help pull me out? All of my negative thinking just feels too pervasive to be attackable with therapy. My therapist is working hard at this now and not letting me wallow in the misery I feel. I've pretty much sworn off telling her about all of my suicidal ideation because it generally makes me feel worse, seems so unproductive and shaming, and feels like too much whining. But there I sat yesterday morning relating to my pdoc some details of practically every suicidal fantasy I've had in the last week, and there have been a bunch. So what's that all about? I see my T 2 (sometimes now 3) times a week; when things were better, I was only seeing my pdoc maybe 3 times a year. So why can I talk to her about this and not my T?
This requires no response. It's just interesting to me that the encouragement you give others is worthless when self-applied and while you can know something intellectually, it's very difficult to accept it in the face of stronger depressive thoughts.
Morbid Mair
Posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2005, at 18:26:46
In reply to Hollow Words (triggerish), posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 16:26:29
I think that when we say "It will get better", we may not be trying to convince the other person that their life will get better. It is almost more like we are saying that we believe in life, and that we know that it is hard for them to believe it at this moment, but perhaps they can hold on to our belief until theirs comes back.
I know how hard it is to not know how long it will be and how hard it will be to come up for air again. But try to remember that when you *are* up for air that it is pretty neat. That there is something worthwhile to work towards.
I wish I could say "Here's a magic pill" or "3 months of therapy will do it for you", but you wouldn't believe me anyway. It doesn't work that way. I guess all you can really do is believe that it *will* end, and that it is worth working as hard as you can to make that happen as soon as possible. Maybe the process of defeating the depression becomes the purpose of life right now.
I know it is dark. I'm sorry you feel so awful. But there is hope, even if you can't see it. And we need you to fight for it.
(((Mair)))
(I owe you... remember... let me know when you want it)
Posted by daisym on May 3, 2005, at 18:30:00
In reply to Hollow Words (triggerish), posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 16:26:29
I think I know what you mean. There are things I say to other people that I can't apply to myself. And thinking and talking about suicide seems important (obsessively important) to do with some people but not with most. I'm sure your therapist would tell you to keep talking about it because it is up, but I understand about holding it in -- it feels a little like crying wolf, doesn't it?
All I can say is that there seems to be an ebb and flow to all of this. But dark is dark and down is deep down these days. It is hard not to want to stop the craziness.
I wish I had the right words. I'll think more on this and try again later.
Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 20:32:37
In reply to Hollow Words (triggerish), posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 16:26:29
Mair, I wish I could think of something useful to say. You've been there for me so many times when I needed it.
Please try hard not to shut your therapist out of your life right now, or worry about how your feelings are affecting her. It's not whining. It's really been helpful for me at my worst to know there was someone who knew just how bad "worst" was, and could tolerate it and stand with me.
Posted by Poet on May 3, 2005, at 21:02:32
In reply to Hollow Words (triggerish), posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 16:26:29
Hi Mair,
I can find worth in others, but not myself, too. I think many of us struggle with this, and I wish I had an answer.
Your words to other posters aren't hollow, you just can't allow yourself to believe in them when it comes to you. Having faith in yourself is tough when you are depressed, I'll have faith in you for you, okay?
Take care.
Poet
Posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 21:37:29
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » mair, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2005, at 18:26:46
> I think that when we say "It will get better", we may not be trying to convince the other person that their life will get better. It is almost more like we are saying that we believe in life, and that we know that it is hard for them to believe it at this moment, but perhaps they can hold on to our belief until theirs comes back.
Yes I can recall having this sentiment (the belief in life one) but it seems so far away now.
>
> I know how hard it is to not know how long it will be and how hard it will be to come up for air again. But try to remember that when you *are* up for air that it is pretty neat. That there is something worthwhile to work towards.I think the not knowing how hard is about as scary as the not knowing how long. Right now I just don't feel that I'm up to it.
>
> I wish I could say "Here's a magic pill" or "3 months of therapy will do it for you", but you wouldn't believe me anyway. It doesn't work that way. I guess all you can really do is believe that it *will* end, and that it is worth working as hard as you can to make that happen as soon as possible. Maybe the process of defeating the depression becomes the purpose of life right now.My T suggested that I take some time off work now since I have so many work related anxieties, but she didn't push it as hard as she has in the past. I think she knows my family needs my income and she's probably astute enough to realize that it wouldn't help since so many of my present anxieties are about not getting my work done or losing clients or not being productive. Before I started really careening down hill her focus was to find ways for me to get my work done. Besides, I'm equally as capable these days of feeling anxious at home too.
>
> I know it is dark. I'm sorry you feel so awful. But there is hope, even if you can't see it. And we need you to fight for it.
>
> (((Mair)))
>
> (I owe you... remember... let me know when you want it)Thanks, falls. I haven't forgotten. It definitely has to get warmer and I need to get my head together a little first. Did you say you'd meet me half way? How far away are you from your state's capital?
mair
Posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 21:42:21
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » mair, posted by daisym on May 3, 2005, at 18:30:00
I hate the crying wolf feeling. That and the notion that I'm making mountains out of molehills.
I'm sure my T would listen to whatever I had to say. I think she's just trying to deal with things more constructively than I am.
I'm sorry you're having such a rough time of it daisy. I haven't been up to posting much, but I have been following things here. Please realize that you have to take care of yourself to be there for your family. (How're those for hollow words? - at least coming from me)
mair
Posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 21:46:39
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » mair, posted by Dinah on May 3, 2005, at 20:32:37
Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm not trying to shut my T out - it just doesn't seem to be very constructive for me to sit there and wallow in my own misery, although god knows sometimes that's all I want to do.
I mean I've been having some pretty normal discussions with her lately mostly about my childhood and relationship to my father. She knows the suicide stuff is in the background - she just hasn't asked me about it the last couple of times and I've been reluctant to raise it. Maybe that's why it was easier for my to talk to my pdoc about it - she hasn't had to listen to me as much as my T has.
My T has told me that she has a very difficult time telling how depressed I am unless I tell her. Something about presenting too well.
Posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 21:48:10
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » mair, posted by Poet on May 3, 2005, at 21:02:32
"I'll have faith in you for you, okay?"
thanks Poet, no matter how misguided.
mair
Posted by rubenstein on May 3, 2005, at 22:12:38
In reply to Hollow Words (triggerish), posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 16:26:29
Mair I know you are going through a hard time now but I just wanted to tell you that your post really helped clarify some things in my thinking. I also feel bad about telling my therapist and feel like I am whining or crying wolf when I speak of my suicidal ideation so I often hold it in or tell and then feel bad about it. Please take care of yourself. I will be thinking of you
rubenstein
Posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2005, at 22:51:07
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » fallsfall, posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 21:37:29
> Yes I can recall having this sentiment (the belief in life one) but it seems so far away now.
*** I know it seems far away, but remember that it *exists*
> I think the not knowing how hard is about as scary as the not knowing how long. Right now I just don't feel that I'm up to it.
*** Unfortunately, I know that feeling, too. Borrow strength from anyone willing to lend it to you - your therapist, your family, your friends, us. You can pay it forward sometime later.
> My T suggested that I take some time off work now since I have so many work related anxieties, but she didn't push it as hard as she has in the past. I think she knows my family needs my income and she's probably astute enough to realize that it wouldn't help since so many of my present anxieties are about not getting my work done or losing clients or not being productive. Before I started really careening down hill her focus was to find ways for me to get my work done. Besides, I'm equally as capable these days of feeling anxious at home too.
*** Taking time off from work has real plusses and minuses. If you will be anxious at home, too, then keep working. There is a real cost to stopping work, particularly for us "high-functioning" types. I would only recommend it if you *can't* work, or if you feel much better if you don't.
>
> Thanks, falls. I haven't forgotten. It definitely has to get warmer and I need to get my head together a little first. Did you say you'd meet me half way? How far away are you from your state's capital?
>
> mair
>
*** I'm always looking for a good excuse. We could meet someplace a little west of the capital. Let me know when you feel a heat wave coming on.(((Mair)))
Falls
Posted by Shortelise on May 4, 2005, at 1:48:43
In reply to Hollow Words (triggerish), posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 16:26:29
I want so much to write, hey, listen to this: then tell you something wonderful, some ingenious words of incredible wisdom that'll help.Obviously, that's not possible.
Here's the best I can do. Years ago when I did acid, I only did it a few times because it never went well, I learned a survival skill. When things started to go bad, I'd "get small", that is to say, I'd concentrate on something small, an object, a flower (it was the 60's right?), a poem, an idea ... something simple, easy, calming.
Maybe that wouldn't help at all, and I haven't thought of it in all these years, until you said about wondering how long feeling bad would last. With acid, you never knew, though I always believed, and was right, that it would pass, which was another mantra.
Hugs, many of them and very tight.
ShortE
Posted by Daisym on May 4, 2005, at 10:19:37
In reply to Hollow Words (triggerish), posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 16:26:29
Mair,
We talked about keeping the thoughts to myself today. I told him about "cry wolf" and I told him I thought the meds were supposed to help eventually. So I was waiting for it to pass and until then being more or less quiet about it.
He said he felt left out.That we had a good, open relationship and he wanted to know what was going on. And he knew I was afraid of making him worry, that it felt like I was intruding. Which is very true.
But it is more than that I think. I couldn't get the words right. I've never been this hopeless for this long so I don't know what to say about it anymore. Is that how it feels for you?
Posted by fallsfall on May 4, 2005, at 11:40:38
In reply to He said he feels left out » mair, posted by Daisym on May 4, 2005, at 10:19:37
Shutting him out will exacerbate your sense of isolation which will make you feel more hopeless. It takes a fight every minute to stay connected with life when you are feeling so depressed. While you may not know *how* you will feel better, can you believe that is *IS* possible? Can you have faith in his ability to help you get to that better place? This is the time when you need to borrow his hope, until yours comes back.
I, also, have some hope you can borrow...
Love,
Falls.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 4, 2005, at 14:11:00
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » daisym, posted by mair on May 3, 2005, at 21:42:21
> I hate the crying wolf feeling. That and the notion that I'm making mountains out of molehills.
Mair,
You know, I sometimes worry that I am making mountains out of molehills. It comes from being highly sensitive, and always finding that my perceptions and ability to handle stimulation of any kind MAKES those molehills mountains to me.If they feel like mountains, they ARE mountains to you. And I'm sorry you have such a climb to reach a more peaceful place.
And as far as crying wolf, well, if you have major recurrent depression, you are going to have multiple depressive episodes. Some will be worse than others. I think that your ability to look back and see how you have handled it before, and how you encourage others is really a positive sign. That means that you remember and can see that it can be better. It may not feel like it right now, because the shadow of the mountain is so overwhelming.
But if you allow us to remmind you about the other side, we'll be glad to.
It will get better mair. I believe in you.
gg
Posted by mair on May 4, 2005, at 17:24:31
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish), posted by rubenstein on May 3, 2005, at 22:12:38
I know what you mean. One of the reasons I don't like talking about it with her is that I always feel like I need to apologize at the next session. This is not based on any signals she's giving me. Sometimes I think I have the urge to apologize because I feel that I shouldn't discuss suicide unless I'm very serious about it. She's tried to debunk this with me but it's a tough sell.
I think it's similar to the difficulty I've had in the past with whether it's ok for me to call her. My idea always was that I shouldn't bother her unless it was an emergency and it couldn't be an emergency unless I really thought I was about to take my life. Obviously that's not her view.
Thanks
mair
Posted by mair on May 4, 2005, at 17:27:45
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » mair, posted by fallsfall on May 3, 2005, at 22:51:07
Thanks falls - after I posted you the last time I realized that it was stupid to ask you how far away you are from the capital because I know exactly how far away you are. West of there is even better from me. - Gee maybe we should bring our occasionally sullen 17 year old daughters and meet at the mall. - NOT
Mair
Posted by mair on May 4, 2005, at 17:35:52
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » mair, posted by Shortelise on May 4, 2005, at 1:48:43
ShortE
Do you know Steve Martin used to do a routine called something like "let's get small." I know that's not what you meant but it was nice to make that connection.
As you've observed, it's hard breaking those ruminative cycles - particularly when I seem to fall into them and don't realize that I'm there until moments have passed. It suddenly occurs to me that I'm sitting in my office staring out the window having some sort of suicidal fantasy when just moments before I was mid-sentence on a letter I was writing. It makes the work day very trying.
I never tried acid. I did have a pretty awful experience with mescaline once that cured me of wanting to experiment with any other hallucinagenics. So young and so stupid.
Thanks
mair
Posted by mair on May 4, 2005, at 17:48:11
In reply to He said he feels left out » mair, posted by Daisym on May 4, 2005, at 10:19:37
I don't think it's just not wanting to worry my T. I think it's knowing that if given plenty of leeway, that's probably all I'd talk about for sessions on end because I'm thinking about it so much. I just can't see those as very productive discussions and for the most part, they'd be total repeats of sessions we've had before.
Although it's also occurred to me more lately that I don't really want to be responsible for myself anymore - I want to be mothered - not by my T and I don't think even by my own mother - maybe a mythical mother. So maybe I'm feeling needy and just want some sympathy.
This has been a pretty long stretch for me - longer than I first realized because it took a retrospective view for me to see that I was there for awhile before I recognized what was going on.
My pdoc asked me the other day if I was really despairing and feeling hopeless. I don't think so because I'm not thinking very far ahead. I think what happens is that I'll feel in a lot of pain and then suddenly decide I can't bear it for much longer. If I think about it enough, I'll start thinking that I'm not going to make it, which is strange in and of itself because it's not like I have a timetable, or certain preconditions in mind. It's just that sometimes it seems inevitable and I don't react as negatively to the idea as I would at other times. All my thinking about this is pretty dispassionate.
mair
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 17:52:27
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » rubenstein, posted by mair on May 4, 2005, at 17:24:31
You know, my therapist comes near tearing his hair out sometimes because I have all these notions of politeness that end up causing me to be rude.
Do you think that by carrying on with your ideas on when it's appropriate to discuss things with her, you might be doing something similar? Not rude, of course. But deciding for your therapist how therapy should look.
Posted by mair on May 4, 2005, at 17:53:54
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » mair, posted by gardenergirl on May 4, 2005, at 14:11:00
Thanks GG
Of course the other thing I worry about is whether I'm on the downslide or upslide. Maybe it's just going to get alot worse.
My T says the same thing about my molehills and mountains. She thinks I do alot of self-censuring because I worry about how she might react to something I think she's bound to see as petty. She also says that I need to accept that having a suicidal reaction to the molehill/mountain, regardless of what it is, is outside the normal range of experience and a symptom of depression. I think she's trying to get me to see that if my thinking is depression-related, I don't have to give it weight.
But it does feel real.
mair
Posted by gardenergirl on May 4, 2005, at 17:56:48
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » Shortelise, posted by mair on May 4, 2005, at 17:35:52
> ShortE
>
> Do you know Steve Martin used to do a routine called something like "let's get small." I know that's not what you meant but it was nice to make that connection.I LOVE that routine. I still quote it. "I'm gonna have to measure ya."
Giggle
gg
>
Posted by mair on May 4, 2005, at 18:02:48
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » mair, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2005, at 17:52:27
Dinah - I have to think about that. It's an interesting concept. I've been filtering and packaging since the first day I walked in her office. There's very little spontaneity - although I certainly now talk more freely about things that used to be unacceptable topics to me.
My T's current theory is that I started to slide last fall when my father died and I was bothered both by the fact that I had no emotional reaction at all to his parting, but also that I was just so unable to tap into the fonder and more loving feelings I had when I was a child. She's going back over all that territory again - trying to help me see why I didn't have much of a reaction, and trying to help me remember some of the good stuff. That just seems like a much more constructive approach than to have me sit there and talk about how awful I'm feeling.
mair
Posted by sunny10 on May 6, 2005, at 11:27:41
In reply to Re: Hollow Words (triggerish) » Dinah, posted by mair on May 4, 2005, at 18:02:48
they'll stick me in a hospital and I will be unable to work on ANYTHING from in there... and my "career" will go up in smoke, et cetera...
Are you afraid of this, too?
Or is it all just that you feel you're "caretaking your T"?
-sunny10
Posted by mair on May 6, 2005, at 16:46:52
In reply to Re: I don't admit it because I'm afraid, posted by sunny10 on May 6, 2005, at 11:27:41
Sunny - I used to feel afraid but my T and I worked through most of those fears several years ago when I was in pretty bad shape. She started talking about the hospital and I pretty much freaked and started feeling like I needed to stop talking to her about how I really felt or deceiving her about what kind of shape I was in. She mentioned involuntary commitments and I went and did some research and figured out that she could never succeed on that tact - in my state it seems pretty impossible to hospitalize someone without their consent. I made a slight meds change which made a huge difference and I started to get better so the threat of hospitalization disappeared. However, after that we spent alot of time processing what had happened and how I felt about how she dealt with things. I think I persuaded her that sometimes I just needed to talk about suicide and I think she came to trust that I would call her before I hurt myself, and I came to trust that I would reach out to her first as well. (before then, definitely not even remotely a given)
Since then she hasn't, in my mind, overreacted to my periodic suicidal obsessions. During this current episode she did say something that was really telling to me - namely that if she started to think I was a very serious risk, she wouldn't necessarily try to get me into a hospital, but she would first contact my husband to make sure systems were put in place to make sure I was never alone. That, too, sounds pretty horrifying but at least it's another option, and it told me that she didn't take at all lightly my aversion to hospitalization.
My T is not a heavy handed person - her style is much more to nicely persuade. I'm sure if she ever thought it was absolutely necessary, I'd be very much a part of the decision making process. But talking to her about all this ad nauseum over a very long period of time has brought us to a place where I'm really not afraid of what she might do to me.
I don't think I avoid the subject with her because I'm "caretaking." I've had the thought before that I didn't want to worry her, but frankly sometimes I think I need her to worry about me. I think I get really hung up on the notion that I shouldn't talk about it unless I'm really pretty much there. I feel bad afterwards because I think that maybe I've made things sound worse than they are - this sometimes leads to the confusing conundrum of thinking that if I am going to talk about my suicidal feelings, I should just act on them. Sort of the put up or shut up challenge.
mair
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