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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by alexandra_k on February 25, 2005, at 20:46:31
In reply to Re: sorry guys » alexandra_k, posted by pinkeye on February 25, 2005, at 19:46:54
> You seem to be smart, so do you have an explanation yourself as to why you are in intense distress? Something you believe is not due to your faulty thinking as they say, but something which is external or deeply emotional for you?
Traumatic memories.
Ruminations.
Frustration that my 'need' aren't being met.
Because my nervous system is wired up to 'very reactive'...
I do see how 'faulty thinking' can come into play sometimes.
But not always, and not as a matter of definition.
And to beat me over the head with it doesn't help me be receptive to the idea.
Posted by pinkeye on February 25, 2005, at 21:17:12
In reply to Re: sorry guys » pinkeye, posted by alexandra_k on February 25, 2005, at 20:46:31
I understand the frustration of being fully blamed and asked to be fully responsible for the distress that you are in even when it is so obvious that you have had traumatic memories and that you are not fully in control of them.
Sometimes people don't understand that external circumstances and events do have a lot of influence in how you end up feeling. Thoughts can only control upto 60 - 70 % of how you feel. Rest of the feeling is just that - feeling. And our subconscious and emotional self is always more powerful than our logical self. Therapists sometimes seem to overlook that part. If we could all be made to feel perfectly well just by manipulating thoughts, we would all become equal to computers.But nevertheless, we do have the power to change our feelings to a large extent by manipulating our own thought patterns and taking some actions that will help alleviate little bit of suffering. Is it possible to take the good part out of what your CBT therapists say and apply it for now to relieve some distress for yourself? And leave the rest to be answered for a later time when you have more money at your disposal to go to a good therapist?
>
> Traumatic memories.
> Ruminations.
> Frustration that my 'need' aren't being met.
> Because my nervous system is wired up to 'very reactive'...
> I do see how 'faulty thinking' can come into play sometimes.
> But not always, and not as a matter of definition.
> And to beat me over the head with it doesn't help me be receptive to the idea.
>
>
>
Posted by pinkeye on February 25, 2005, at 21:55:22
In reply to Re: sorry guys » pinkeye, posted by alexandra_k on February 25, 2005, at 20:46:31
I just thoguht of something which might help you. While you wait to work on things out with some therapist, meanwhile do what you can do to atleast feel temporarily better.
Try not to ruminate. If you catch yourself ruminating, distract yourself. It helped me immensely.
And reach out to others and try to help others as much as possible. As I said in the other thread, it has helped me hugely in not thinking about my own issues.
Stop doing anything which makes you feel sad and distressed - don't see sad movies, don't listen to sad or pathos songs and don't associate with people who invoke negative feelings in you. Working on your things is long term solution, but temporarily you can do certain things to feel little better. I used to watch movies which were very sad and read novels which were all somehow complicated and lie listening to songs which were sadly romantic and cry. Just the simple step of stopping that and starting to see comedy movies, and movies like Sound of music, Tarzan, Charlie Chaplin, Lion King, Finding Nemo, and other disney movies and listening to songs like Michael Jacksons songs made my mood much better.
I believe you should find some good therapist and work on underlying issues definitely, but meanwhile you can try to make your life a little easier with these simple and effective steps.
Posted by alexandra_k on February 25, 2005, at 23:02:16
In reply to Re: sorry guys » alexandra_k, posted by pinkeye on February 25, 2005, at 21:55:22
Thanks for your post.
I went through a year of DBT (a modified version of CBT) and learned a lot of 'coping' strategies there. They are how I get by. Distraction and mindfulness. Doing things to keep my mind off stuff as best I can.
I will endure.
Some days are better than others.
I'll just try not to fall into a depression over it.
Maintenence. There is always maintenence...
Posted by Susan47 on February 28, 2005, at 13:05:04
In reply to Re: sorry guys » Susan47, posted by alexandra_k on February 25, 2005, at 16:19:43
That was hilarious, I clapped my hands, threw my head back and laughed! Oh yes, I remember that conversation ... "That's not very a productive way of thinking" ... words to that effect. I knew he didn't understand that compulsion behind the thinking. They say that authority comes from experience, or some such thing ... you know, the theory (that's true but walks a fine line in practice!!) that in order to be effective, you have to have had those experiences yourself.
I always hoped he understood, I always wanted him to understand, but I think he lacked the authority. You know?
Posted by Susan47 on February 28, 2005, at 13:25:43
In reply to Re: sorry guys » alexandra_k, posted by Susan47 on February 28, 2005, at 13:05:04
A therapist who's too emotionally healthy.
Right now he's probably thinking, "Man, am I ever good. Look at all the good stuff I've done for her. Just by being me, (or allowing her to think I am who she thought I was), and being open and quiet, (he'd forget he terminated me), I've set the example and she's following it." ... that's not too emotionally healthy thinking, is it?
Susan, honey, you've lost it again. Heehee, patients are so much fun. They're crazy, they'll say anything.
I think I'm being a bit paranoid right now. Sssshhhh ...
Posted by Susan47 on February 28, 2005, at 13:27:10
In reply to Wow. What a Concept., posted by Susan47 on February 28, 2005, at 13:25:43
I do know one thing. I'm becoming more aggressive in my attempts to be heard and understood. But it's a quieter aggression. And it's more honest, it's all honest.
So many changes this weekend. So many wonderful things, and so much living to be done :)
Posted by pinkeye on February 28, 2005, at 13:47:30
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept., posted by Susan47 on February 28, 2005, at 13:27:10
Maybe your therapist was really clueless as to how to help you. That is probably why he terminated. Maybe he didn't have all the insight you need.
Has it ever occurred to you that he might have terminated you becuase of his own limitations?
Posted by alexandra_k on February 28, 2005, at 15:23:22
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on February 28, 2005, at 13:47:30
I dare say you are most probably exactly right!
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 0:20:29
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on February 28, 2005, at 13:47:30
Oh yes, absolutely. It's one of the concepts I created about him that I then fell in love with. That he was an altruist. Mmmm.
I found out a great deal about what's important to me from knowing, or rather, not knowing, this person. I wonder how that happened, it's weird but it just really did, it happened, it's perfect, everything's perfect. Sigh. Today I'm totally in love with everybody and everything in my little world.
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 0:21:56
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » pinkeye, posted by alexandra_k on February 28, 2005, at 15:23:22
Oh, the tone of this post is lovely. It reminds me of the caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland, for some reason. I'm going to have to look that up ...
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 16:21:31
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » pinkeye, posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 0:20:29
As much as you want to work on your feelings towards your therapist, and your interest in using that to understand yourself better, do know though that letting go of this person will probably do good for you in the long run rather than keep on trying to work on your feelings for him. It is called rumination and it doesn't do you any good if you keep trying to understand him, what he stood for, what he meant for you, what you were looking for from him, etc. All this thing only end up beign a downward spiralling movement and it never leads anywhere.
He probably hasn't thought about you even a little. And he has a full life himself with others. As much as it hurts you now to recognize this, I believe, acknowledging that would be the most effective first step that you can take towards letting him go from your life.
Slowly as you go about your life and create other meaningful relationship with other people, this unresolved puzzle with your therapist will fall into place - it is possible only by creating positive relationship with yourself and others and not by ruminating and digging it deeper and deeper and trying to work on it now. Logic never changes emotions. You will have to chnage your emtoions, and experiencing more positive relationship with others is the way to go to changing yoru emotions.
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 18:19:42
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 16:21:31
Omigosh Pinkeye what on earth brought that on?
You fair flew at me, dear.
Don't worry, I know damn well my ex-T has a life.
Haven't I said that all along?
I'm not ruminating, and have you not noticed a change in me recently? Hello? Are we both talking about me here?
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 18:47:17
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept., posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 18:19:42
I must have misunderstood what you had written in your post. I thought you were still trying to keep analysing him and understanding about him etc etc.
"Oh yes, absolutely. It's one of the concepts I created about him that I then fell in love with. That he was an altruist. Mmmm.
I found out a great deal about what's important to me from knowing, or rather, not knowing, this person. I wonder how that happened, it's weird but it just really did, it happened, it's perfect, everything's perfect. "> Omigosh Pinkeye what on earth brought that on?
> You fair flew at me, dear.
> Don't worry, I know damn well my ex-T has a life.
> Haven't I said that all along?
> I'm not ruminating, and have you not noticed a change in me recently? Hello? Are we both talking about me here?
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:51:18
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 18:47:17
Well, you may see that, but is there something wrong with that?
If I feel like I'm benefitting from this "ruminating", does that not carry an validity? I believe it does. I'm sorry.
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:56:11
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept., posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:51:18
Please don't take offense, though, at my abruptness. Because I can understand how my thoughts and feelings could be upsetting for others. I understand that. I look back at my posts and wonder at the power behind the words. Everyone's posts here have power, a lot of power. For me, it important to keep being as honest as I can, even when I'm realizing I've fooled myself. Speaking about me, of course, as usual, just talking about me. Okay? And thank you, Pinkeye, for being interested, and giving me your perceptions. Because they are very valuable. And I do think about everything you say, sometimes it just takes re-reading, just like in life when I play conversations in my head more than once.
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 22:02:53
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept., posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:51:18
I believe rumination appears to create value, but eventually it doesn't. That is what I read and now I believe it too.
You probably are thinking that by keep getting deeper and deeper and thinking about him constantly, you are probably working on your way to your wellness and understaning yourself better. And you probably like thinking about him and keep creating that virtual relationship that you had with him in your mind. Because the relationship part of it probably feels good. Also you are probably thinking that by constantly venting out and talking about it, you are probably getting him out of your system.
But what they say is, rumination is really bad for you, and doesn't serve any purpose. You are much better off by distracting yourself, and doing something else, and trying to create more positive relationships and doing things a better way with others - these are productive and helps you learn a different way of coping and you learn a better way of living by simply living a better life. Not by thinking what went wrong and how you could have done things differently. Rumination leads straight into depression by creating a kind of vicious circle. And it robs you of developing a better coping strategy when faced with other issues. It seems to be not true, but that is what it really does. Women tend to get more depressed and stay in depression longer than men, because women have a much higher tendency to do this rumination. Men simply don't. If they end up doing badly in a relationship, they don't keep thinking about it all the time - instead they go and play sports or spend time in an electronic shop or just go and drink. That is why they don't get depressed. They find something else interesting to do, and it helps them move on faster. (but don't do the drinking part). And nowadays, psychologists prescribe the same exact thing for women who have a tendency to get depressed.
You should get a book Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman. It was available in my local library and it helped me see things clearly.
Posted by annierose on March 1, 2005, at 22:06:42
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 22:02:53
Well said pinkeye. It makes sense. And I hope your post is helpful to Susan.
Posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 22:08:19
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 21:56:11
I am not taking offense at your abruptness. It took me some time to learn to be gentle as well as honest. I used to be little abrupt myself, so I understand.
I am glad my perceptions help you. I somehow feel I could help you of all the people here the most, because somehow I feel I can understand your way of thinking. That is why I always try to respond to you and give you my views and what I had learnt. And it reinforces for myself, what I had learnt as well. So it is mutually beneficial. A friend of mine said long back that real learning comes from your fingertips and tongue - by writing and telling others about what you had learnt.
Posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 22:33:17
In reply to Re: Wow. What a Concept. » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 1, 2005, at 22:02:53
From both of you. I'm upset that you don't understand and you both sound preachy to me. It's time for a Babble break. My first in ages!!!
Posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:22:36
In reply to Enough., posted by Susan47 on March 1, 2005, at 22:33:17
(((Susan))) You okay hon???
You are doing okay.
You come back here and Babble, you hear???I too read that as the sort of CBTish instruction that I have to admit I find hard to take as well...
I know people really are super well intentioned but I still find it hard...
It is one thing to know 'rationally' what to do...
And to see 'objectively' what should be done...
And quite another to live through the experience.
Sometimes people need their experiences validated.
I think your transference has been helpful to you Susan (though painful).
It has brought up a lot of guy issues for you - right?
That stuff is really hard.
(((Susan)))
Hang in there.
Come play on writing...
Please.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:27:44
In reply to Re: Oh Dear...., posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:22:36
And don't stop writing about it if that is what is on your mind - you hear me???
I think you are doing really well...
Sure you go round and round a bit
But hell, I have been known to do that myself.
I am confident that there is a lot you have to work through.
You work at your own pace.Please don't stop Susan.
I know here is the one place you felt able to express yourself honestly.
Please, don't let anything change that.
Posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 10:42:26
In reply to Re: Oh Dear...., posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:27:44
I feel very bad about what I posted last night. It brought home to me just unhelpful CBT-type therapy is for me. Alexandra, you're right. That is bad therapy for me. It doesn't work. I know I'm getting the core issues dealt with. That's what matters. How I do it is how I do it. Period. But thank you, Pinkeye, for caring. You HAVE helped me by being here. If CBT works for you, that's fine. Personally, I believe it's a bandaid.
Posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 10:43:48
In reply to Pinkeye, Annierose, I'm sorry., posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 10:42:26
A bandaid on a festering wound. You could die from the infection.
Posted by Susan47 on March 2, 2005, at 10:51:14
In reply to Re: Oh Dear...., posted by alexandra_k on March 2, 2005, at 0:27:44
Thank you Alex, your level head brought me to a better place. I hope Pinkeye forgives me. I hope she goes easy on herself, too. She deserves a lot of support for all the wonderful work she's been doing. I'm truly sorry for sounding off.
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