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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by shrinking violet on November 26, 2004, at 18:49:30
I just thought this was interesting given that most of us are torn up over feelings of wanting to drive past our T's houses.
I recently moved to a new city in the same state....I had been commuting 45 minutes each way to and from school and therapy, doc, nutritionist appointments (they all work at my Uni too) and it was just too much. So I moved 15 minutes from school and, coincidentally, about 2 minutes by car (literally) from my T's house, although she doesn't know I know where she lives.
So my T asked where I moved and I told her. She asked where specifically, and I told her the street (I saw her react a bit when she heard that I live the street off of her street). She didn't admit that she lives in that area, but she did say she was "very familiar" with it and asked a few questions trying to get an idea of exactly where I lived. Eventually we moved onto another topic.
The next session, my T said "I drove past your apartment..." She didn't say why, she didn't even qualify it by saying she just happened to be going by there for some other reason (there are a lot of small shops, etc around here so she could have easily made an excuse). She made it sound like she just drove by to check it out, although who knows.
Hm, I'm curious as to why she would do such a thing. Imagine if I told her I've driven by her house (even though her address is unpublished, but I managed to find out her address anyway). She'd probably have a fit, or at least react in some way. Yet she seemed perfectly okay with telling me, rather nonchalantly, that she drove by my house.
I'm not sure whether to be somewhat perturbed by this, or flattered, or simply intrigued, etc.
Anyway, just wanted to share this little tidbit. See, T's are people too. :)
SV
Posted by BigFish on November 26, 2004, at 20:46:47
In reply to My T drove by MY apartment...., posted by shrinking violet on November 26, 2004, at 18:49:30
Hi SV,
Thanks for sharing this incident. It's hard to know exactly why she did that but there are a few likely possibilities: she's concerned about the quality of your living arrangement, she's just plain curious, and/or she's trying to let you know that it's ok to be curious about her [since she has indicated her curiosity about you]. I think that it makes plain that you are on her mind and that she cares about you. Have you ever done a "drive-by?" I was contemplating the times that I have done "drive-bys." It's only been when I have had a crush on a guy that I've done that, wanting to see where he lived.
I myself have a strange T incident that I don't know what to make of, that I would like help with, but if I write it here I'm afraid my T will know it's me because it is so unusual! Argh!
Any further thoughts?
Take care,
BigFish
Posted by alexandra_k on November 26, 2004, at 21:06:38
In reply to My T drove by MY apartment...., posted by shrinking violet on November 26, 2004, at 18:49:30
Oh he he he, that is so funny :-)
Do you think you could ask her in a casual kind of way why she drove by???
I would be verrrrrry interested to hear what she has to say... :-)
Posted by shrinking violet on November 26, 2004, at 21:12:55
In reply to Re: My T drove by MY apartment.... » shrinking violet, posted by BigFish on November 26, 2004, at 20:46:47
Hi Big Fish,
Thank you for responding.
>>It's hard to know exactly why she did that but there are a few likely possibilities: she's concerned about the quality of your living arrangement, she's just plain curious, and/or she's trying to let you know that it's ok to be curious about her [since she has indicated her curiosity about you]. I think that it makes plain that you are on her mind and that she cares about you.
-- Hm, you're probably right, thank you for those possibilities. Any of them would be nice, although I'm still not sure why she told me about it. And yes, my T tells me openly that she cares about me and thinks of me a lot, and she has gone to great lengths in proving that she does (just today in fact), so I'm sure that's part of it as well. She does self-disclose (apparently more with me than with other clients, or so she says, but who knows), and I'm actually somewhat surprised at some of the things she shares with me, and I'm fairly confident that if I asked her anything about herself she'd most likely respond, unless it was overtly intruding, which I would never do. There are some things I've been curious to ask her, but I'm waiting for the "right time" to do so.
>>Have you ever done a "drive-by?" I was contemplating the times that I have done "drive-bys." It's only been when I have had a crush on a guy that I've done that, wanting to see where he lived.
--I hate to admit it, but yes, I've driven by. The first time was out of curiosity of course. She has described parts of her home to me before, so when I saw it it was like "Oh that's the farm, and that's the deck! etc), and it was nice to finally have a concrete picture to put with the descriptions. I still drive by, especially now that I live literally two minutes from her, so it's hard to resist the temptation. Recently I've noticed a car parked toward the back of her house from time to time, and I'm driving myself nuts trying to figure out who the car belongs to. *sigh* Part of me doesn't want to know, though, b/c if I find out she has some "secret life" that she didnt share with me, I'd be crushed. And part of me feels guilty because it's really none of my business. But I digress....(sorry, once I get going...lol). I'm not sure why I still go by her house now; I live close to her so it's hard NOT to do there, but maybe it helps me feel like she's really there and helps solidify that connection to her especially during the days I may not have direct contact with her.
>> I myself have a strange T incident that I don't know what to make of, that I would like help with, but if I write it here I'm afraid my T will know it's me because it is so unusual! Argh!
--Well I'd LOVE to hear the incident, and I'd hope that I would have some feedback to offer, but of course you need to feel comfortable to post it. Do you have any evidence that your T reads this board? I am always so afraid that my T will come across this board (or already reads it) an then of course she'd immediately recognize herself and me as well, which would be devastating, not to mention fearing her reaction. But then I try to realize that she probably has better things to do at work than browse the Internet for therapy message boards, and I don't think she has a computer at home (she's told me she doesn't, but lately she's said a couple of things that make me wonder otherwise, so I'm not sure, but she seems like she has better things to do than glue herself to a computer all weekend). Think about it a bit and try to see if you can figure out whether your fear is rational or irrational, and then maybe you'll feel safer to post your incident. In the meantime, take care, and thanks again for the feedback.
SV
Posted by LG04 on November 27, 2004, at 11:10:22
In reply to Re: My T drove by MY apartment.... » BigFish, posted by shrinking violet on November 26, 2004, at 21:12:55
SV,
I would be very upset if my therapist drove by my apartment. To me, it would suggest some kind of neediness on her part towards me. I would feel very violated as well.
I have read about all your struggles with your therapist over the past months, including the post you wrote below. I am not in your shoes and I don't know everything about your relationship with her. I don't usually like to give straight out advice or opinions. But as you asked for feedback, I do want to say that it doesn't sound very healthy to me. And I don't think it's your fault. I think it's the therapist's job to regulate the relationship (boundaries, etc.) and to give you a feeling of safety and of being protected (emotionally). Sometimes the therapist even has to protect the client from the therapist him/herself. It has always seemed to me that your therapist has poor boundaries and a lot of neediness towards you and this would be terribly confusing and guilt-causing and so many things, and it would definitely make for an unhealthy therapeutic relationship (not to mention that it would be difficult to open up to her...it makes so much sense that it's hard for you to express yourself in therapy).
Personally I was relieved when I saw that you left your therapist. I know that it was a difficult decision. At the time I wasn't in a place at all to be able to write on this forum, I have been going thru so much with leaving my own therapist (not to mention moving to a different country and starting my entire life over). So I am sorry that I didn't express my support for your decision at the time.
I don't know if this is helpful or not, what I can say is that it's honest. It's hard to trust ourselves when we know that we have so many issues and we always ask, is it her, or is it me? Even here on Babble, we have different opinions about your relationship with her. But I get very uneasy feelings from what you write about her (my therapist tells me that I am very good about noticing the second i feel that someone is crossing my boundaries...). None of this is to say that she doesn't care about you or anything like that. It's just to say that, in my humble opinion, she seems to have way too many issues that she needs to work thru and she puts a lot of them on you and that is terribly unfair. I'm sure she isn't doing it intentionally. But your job is to protect yourself, not her. It should be her job too, and she's not doing it.
I know this is strong, I guess I've been reading your posts for a while without responding so it's all coming out in this one post.
Whatever you decide to do, I support you. It's very difficult to leave a therapist no matter what, and especially because there usually are also good things to say about them and real feelings of caring, etc. It's not all bad. And I don't dislike your therapist. I just think that overall, she's not good for you and that you deserve someone better able to separate herself from you and focus on your needs and your needs only. Otherwise, yes, I believe therapy can be damaging. (or unhelpful at best)
Again, just my opinion!
Good luck,
LG04
Posted by Fallen4MyT on November 27, 2004, at 20:13:15
In reply to My T drove by MY apartment...., posted by shrinking violet on November 26, 2004, at 18:49:30
Posted by shrinking violet on November 27, 2004, at 22:31:53
In reply to Re: My T drove by MY apartment...., posted by LG04 on November 27, 2004, at 11:10:22
Hi LG04; I appreciate your thoughts. I responded to some points below....
>> I would be very upset if my therapist drove by my apartment. To me, it would suggest some kind of neediness on her part towards me. I would feel very violated as well.
--Interesting take. Most of me doesn't really mind, I was just surprised that she did so, and more surprised that she told me about it. And in some small way, I sort of like what it might imply, that maybe she has some neediness on her part, or maybe concern, etc. At the same time, a very small part of me is a bit perturbed that she feels that she is entitled to be able to ask where I live and find out, and then drive by, when I can't ask the same of her. But that's probably just being petty about the inequality of this relationship, and if I really didn't want her to know where I lived I could have not told her (hm, could I? I think she would have pressed it, or acted insulted or hurt that I wouldn't tell her, but that's just speculation of course).
>> I have read about all your struggles with your therapist over the past months, including the post you wrote below. I am not in your shoes and I don't know everything about your relationship with her. I don't usually like to give straight out advice or opinions. But as you asked for feedback, I do want to say that it doesn't sound very healthy to me. And I don't think it's your fault. I think it's the therapist's job to regulate the relationship (boundaries, etc.) and to give you a feeling of safety and of being protected (emotionally). Sometimes the therapist even has to protect the client from the therapist him/herself. It has always seemed to me that your therapist has poor boundaries and a lot of neediness towards you and this would be terribly confusing and guilt-causing and so many things, and it would definitely make for an unhealthy therapeutic relationship (not to mention that it would be difficult to open up to her...it makes so much sense that it's hard for you to express yourself in therapy).--I always appreciate opinions like this about my T, just because my instincts tell me that you're right, even though I'm never sure whether I'm overreacting, etc. I think my T can be somewhat needy and vulnerable in general; we even had a recent discussion about this and she admitted as much to me (which I already suspected just from knowing her, but it was intersting to hear her validate it). I somehow doubt she is this way with her other clients, though. In a way I do value that part of her. I value that she is very caring and open with herself, at least with me. In another way, it does complicate things on my end a lot, and I do feel like I need to take care of her and I worry about her, etc, which I also think she likes/needs on some level (again, just my view and it could be wrong). But as you said, I also feel like she isnt really "protecting" me as much as I would like (to use your word, which seems to fit perfectly), and I feel like she may be in over her head with me. You made me think when you said that this sort of relationship can be contributing to my not being able to talk to her. Now, I've had this problem with a lot of people (she's the only T I've ever seen, but when I talk with people who try to get to o much out of me personally or who try to see "into" me too much, or even with people of authority like doctors, police, even concerned friends who try to have too serious a conversation, I clam up and can't talk), so not being able to talk with her isn't a surprise. It seems to be getting a bit better, but it's slow and really hard for me to fight all the crap that makes me not want to talk to her. But I hadn't thought that the relationship itself or the way she is with me might make it that much harder. Do you know WHY that might be? I'm interested to hear any further thoughts on this, if you have any.
>> Personally I was relieved when I saw that you left your therapist. I know that it was a difficult decision. At the time I wasn't in a place at all to be able to write on this forum, I have been going thru so much with leaving my own therapist (not to mention moving to a different country and starting my entire life over). So I am sorry that I didn't express my support for your decision at the time.--That's okay, thank you. I probably would have gone back to her anyway. I know on some level that maybe she isn't the best T for me, but she's the one I started with and I don't want to start over with someone else, and I only get to see her until I graduate in May anyway, so I feel like I want to try hard to make this work with her, in some way.
>> I don't know if this is helpful or not, what I can say is that it's honest. It's hard to trust ourselves when we know that we have so many issues and we always ask, is it her, or is it me? Even here on Babble, we have different opinions about your relationship with her. But I get very uneasy feelings from what you write about her (my therapist tells me that I am very good about noticing the second i feel that someone is crossing my boundaries...).--Thank you, I do value your opinions. I'm not sure whether there's much I can DO about it, per se, especially since I don't want to quit with her right now. Opinions like yours though do serve to validate that part of me that says "something isn't right here." So thank you.
>>None of this is to say that she doesn't care about you or anything like that. It's just to say that, in my humble opinion, she seems to have way too many issues that she needs to work thru and she puts a lot of them on you and that is terribly unfair. I'm sure she isn't doing it intentionally. But your job is to protect yourself, not her. It should be her job too, and she's not doing it.
--I know. I know she does care (maybe too much??). If you met her, you would meet a very caring, open, warm, genuine, admirable woman. It's hard not to be drawn into her, in a way. And I think she has a lot of needs and insecurites and vulnerabilities of her own that she brings to the table, but as you said, I'm not sure she's aware of how much she lets them intrude on the therapy (again though, I question whether she is this way with her other clients. She says she isn't, so that's what I'm going on. For some reason I think because of our relationship, they [her issues] are much more prominent with me).
>>I know this is strong, I guess I've been reading your posts for a while without responding so it's all coming out in this one post.-No, it's okay, I do appreciate your point of view. Actually I almost prefer to hear opinions like yours becuase it does validate that small part of me that wonders if something isn't quite right with this relationship, but then I question that part of me because I haven't had any other experiences to draw from, and because what would I know, I'm "just" the client (and maybe not the best judge, by default!).
>> Whatever you decide to do, I support you. It's very difficult to leave a therapist no matter what, and especially because there usually are also good things to say about them and real feelings of caring, etc. It's not all bad. And I don't dislike your therapist. I just think that overall, she's not good for you and that you deserve someone better able to separate herself from you and focus on your needs and your needs only. Otherwise, yes, I believe therapy can be damaging. (or unhelpful at best)--THANK YOU LG. I appreciate the honesty with which you wrote this response. :-) I'm sure someday I'll return to it in a time of need; who knows what may happen in the long run with her.
Thank you so much. Take care.
SV
Posted by Poet on November 28, 2004, at 1:42:29
In reply to My T drove by MY apartment...., posted by shrinking violet on November 26, 2004, at 18:49:30
Ask her if it was accidental or on purpose. She peaked your curiousity and then didn't give a reason. It's just an odd thing for her to say and then drop it.
My pdoc works out of his house, so I know where he lives and it's not far from where I live (there are railroad tracks in between ;) so I woudn't be surprised if he drove past my house. Maybe since yours lives near by she was just heading home? It's still weird that she left it hanging, though.
That would really bug me and I understand why it's bugging you.Poet
Posted by Dinah on November 28, 2004, at 9:54:00
In reply to Re: My T drove by MY apartment.... » LG04, posted by shrinking violet on November 27, 2004, at 22:31:53
I think here we have the tension between what we want and what's good for us.
I think every single one of us wants to be special to our therapist. To have our therapist think of us in a different way from their other clients. To be the one they want to be friends or lovers with.
I think it's DISASTROUS for a therapist to admit to any of that. Of everything you've told us about your therapist, I think that's what bothers me most. It sets up expectations that a therapist just can't deliver on. Which is a sure recipe for pain. It changes the therapeutic frame so that it's too much a two way friendship as opposed to being about you. Maybe I'm worrying too much about it. As long as you aren't putting too many expectations into what she said, maybe it's harmless or perhaps even helpful in your specific case. I just think it's generally a bad idea.
My therapist has said on occasion that I'm special because I'm his longest term client. But that's a very impersonal reason to be special, and I don't think it affects the relationship any. And it's balanced by the myriad ways I know I annoy him to death.
Her personal flaws - well, they all have them. It'd be best for her and her clients if someone did point out how they interfere in therapy. I'm not at all shy about pointing those things out to my therapist.
Posted by shrinking violet on November 28, 2004, at 20:47:26
In reply to Re: My T drove by MY apartment...., posted by Poet on November 28, 2004, at 1:42:29
>> Ask her if it was accidental or on purpose. She peaked your curiousity and then didn't give a reason. It's just an odd thing for her to say and then drop it.
--Well, she said that she drove by, and then she said she knows where it is now (because when I initially told her she couldn't exactly place where it was on the street as its a rather long road), and she asked some questions about my landlords and it went from there.
>> Maybe since yours lives near by she was just heading home?
--It's possible, depending on when she drove by. If she drove by after work, she would have gone there on purpose because she could get to her house easier from the school without coming by my house (she'd have had to come by, turn around, then go back the other way to go home). It's possible she was coming from my end to go to her house and drove by that way, coincidentally, but then why didn't she just say that? She made it sound like she came by on purpose---so either she did, or she wants me to think she did.
Ack, I don't like analyzing my T. Too many possibilities. lol.
>> That would really bug me and I understand why it's bugging you.
--well, I have more pressing issues to deal with the past few days unfortunately, so this has sort of fallen by the wayside, but yeah when I do think about it I find it a little perplexing (in a good sort of way though).
Thanks for your response. I'm so glad things are going well for you in T lately! What's your secret, huh? ;-) (I'm not joking either, lol).
Take care,
SV
Posted by shrinking violet on November 28, 2004, at 21:10:03
In reply to Re: My T drove by MY apartment.... » shrinking violet, posted by Dinah on November 28, 2004, at 9:54:00
>> I think every single one of us wants to be special to our therapist. To have our therapist think of us in a different way from their other clients. To be the one they want to be friends or lovers with.
--True. It's complicated, of course, and somewhat different for everyone. In my case (and try not to cringe too much when you hear this, lol) my T tells me I'm different than her other clients, she tells me I'm important, she tells me our relationship is unique, she tells me I only get the side of her that I get and she isn't that way with other clients (being more open about herself, telling me how she feels about me, or even about some things in general in her life, etc). I know, though, that my T wouldn't want to be friends with me in real life. Not that she's ever said that, I just don't think I'm the type of person she'd be friends with for a lot of reasons. In a way though, that's more motivation for me to change and try to become "better" and more like someone she would think of seeing socially, although, again, I know it would never happen.
>>I think it's DISASTROUS for a therapist to admit to any of that. Of everything you've told us about your therapist, I think that's what bothers me most. It sets up expectations that a therapist just can't deliver on. Which is a sure recipe for pain. It changes the therapeutic frame so that it's too much a two way friendship as opposed to being about you. Maybe I'm worrying too much about it. As long as you aren't putting too many expectations into what she said, maybe it's harmless or perhaps even helpful in your specific case. I just think it's generally a bad idea.
--In terms of her driving by, I'm not really putting any specific expectation or meaning into it. And, in general, I don't think I put any expectations on her at all. Do I hope for things? Sure. Do I know that they can't or won't happen? Sure. And on another level I feel immensely blessed and lucky to find a T who does give me more than I could have ever hoped for or expected from a relationship like this. Some of it may be debatable, or even "damaging" in itself in some way, but at the same time I do value it and I do know she is just being herself, just being very genuine and trying so very hard, and I really can't fault her for that.
>> My therapist has said on occasion that I'm special because I'm his longest term client. But that's a very impersonal reason to be special, and I don't think it affects the relationship any. And it's balanced by the myriad ways I know I annoy him to death.--Well I annoy my T too, I'm sure, much more than she'd admit! :) My T has told me that she doesn't work with clients on a long-term basis very often (she's a T at a University)and that is partly why I'm important to her and a priority of hers. But I don't think it's the main reason, although I couldn't presume to know for sure. And I think most of our T's do feel a lot more for their clients than they let on, and do have different relationships with different clients. Mine just happens to be more open with how she feels and how she perceives things. Maybe that's good, maybe it isn't, maybe it's a bit of both. But it is how it is.
>>Her personal flaws - well, they all have them. It'd be best for her and her clients if someone did point out how they interfere in therapy. I'm not at all shy about pointing those things out to my therapist.
--Hm, I'm not sure I could do that. I guess we're back to my taking care of her too much, but I wouldn't risk hurting her in some way. Tuesday I am going to have to tell her a few things that she does that I am struggling with right now because it's relating to some trouble I've been having (nothing really personally related to her though, more therapy based I guess); this is related to my other post so I won't get into much detail here, but I feel that I have no other choice right now to tell her I think her interpretation of something I said is wrong and I need to try to be very clear with her in what I need right now. That's probably as close as I'd ever come to point anything out to her. :) It's rather interesting though, now that you've said that, because according to her she has "consulted" with other T's about my case, and I know the director of the counseling center knows a lot about me as well...I'm surprised no one has said to her that maybe she's too involved with me emotionally, etc. Actually (and you might want to sit down for this one Dinah, lol) a few weeks ago my T said "do you realize that I have had it pointed out to me in meetings that I practically tear up when I talk about you, and my inability to reach you?" I was very surprised to hear that: very surprised it happens, but also surprised she'd admit it to me. Then she went onto say that other people have pointed out to her that this "relationship" might be hurting her. And then she said if I ever thought she didn't care, or that she was frustrated or annoyed, that I missed it by a hundred miles. So, I'm not sure what all of that means, exactly. Is she aware of the depth of her involvement or not? Have other T's pointed it out to her or not? Does she share with them how involved she might be, or what she tells me, or does she try to hide it (um, except when she cries)? I don't know.
Thanks for your thoughts Dinah. I hope I wasn't too defensive of her? I get that way sometimes. But as I wrote to LG04, opinions about my T, especially ones not so favorable, do make me think a bit and do validate that part of me that thinks that maybe she might be doing some damage as well.
Thank you,
SV
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