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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Miss Honeychurch on November 17, 2004, at 10:08:51
In reply to obsession, posted by crushedout on November 16, 2004, at 23:18:46
Crushed,
I 'm going to try a little CBT/REBT on you. ONe thing I have learned the past year is to stop awfulizing or catastrophizing things. So while you feel obsessed, you probably feel that that is AWFUL and that you SHOULDN'T feel that way.
So, instead of saying to yourself, "This is terrible, I'm obsessing again and behaving poorly and not like how I would like to. This is the worst."
TRy to replace it with "Ok, so I'm obsessing again. While I prefer not to feel this way, it's not the worst thing in the world. I've done it before and come out the other end. Who says I SHOULDN'T be obsessing? Where is that written in stone? It isn't."
Once you take the shoulds off yourself and others, things become much easier.
I'm sorry if I sound idiotic. I'm just telling you what works for me and hope it may work for you.
Posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 11:00:19
In reply to Re: obsession, posted by Miss Honeychurch on November 17, 2004, at 10:08:51
You don't sound idiotic, Miss Honeychurch. What you say actually makes a lot of sense. I shouldn't judge myself so much for that. I'm still doing pretty well.
Posted by fallsfall on November 17, 2004, at 11:20:35
In reply to obsession, posted by crushedout on November 16, 2004, at 23:18:46
(((((Crushed)))))
My therapist didn't respond to my "Dear Jill" voicemail. It drove me crazy. I wanted her to call and say "What are you doing? Come back in and talk to me about this. I can't live without you [yes, I wanted HER to say this]" I was devistated that I meant so little to her that she would just let me go without a fight. I wanted to say goodbye, but I absolutely had no idea how to do that - should I tell her I loved her? should I tell her that I was so incredibly angry? Should I tell her I was afraid to leave? I think that the fact that I really had no idea what to say - what I wanted to say - really helped the first few days. Because I was so confused about what I wanted to say/wanted to happen that it helped me to push it off a little while until I was more in control of how I was feeling. Does this sound like what you are going through?
What ended up happening was that I started seeing my current therapist twice a week. And we talked about her. We talked about nothing else - just her.
When I left her my voice mail, I fully expected that I would *have* to (be required to, not have an option about) see her one more time. That's what happens in therapy, right? You see them one last time to tie things up. I was terrified of seeing her. She hurt me so much that I didn't think I would have any control over myself and that was terrifying (to a good control freak like me). We probably spent three weeks talking about what I would say to her/what I wanted her to say to me. During that time I was starting to calm down a little. I hadn't talked to her in a while - and I was surviving. One session we got to the "But I don't think I can face her again" part, and I finally figured out that it might be OK to not face her again. That maybe I *didn't* have to have that "last session". I really didn't want to see her, but I thought I *had* to. But my new therapist gave me permission to not see her again.
What a relief! I didn't have to follow the "rules" if the rules weren't good for me (gee, what a concept!). Then we were able to start moving on from her to talking about me, and we started (3 or 4 weeks into therapy) to do some "history".
She works in the same office as my psychiatrist, so I knew that I would see her at some point, but that is a story for another day.
I know it is hard (boy do I know...). But you took a lot of time and effort and research (i.e. talking to us, your ex, your new/transitional therapist) to come to this decision. Hold fast to the decision for now. Know that you can always change your mind later - but hold fast to it for now.
In retrospect, I am REALLY glad that she didn't call me back and ask to see me again. I think that her not calling was actually professional competence (but it still hurts that she didn't call...). I think it would have been harder for me if she did call. I do (now) believe that she cares about me [gee, I'm tearing up just writing this now - 18 months later]. But she wasn't the right one to help me. Sigh.
So, how do you get through this? See your transitional therapist. Decide with her if you will stay with her, or find a permanent therapist. Try to convince yourself that if your old therapist doesn't call that she is being professionally competent - not that she doesn't care. If she DOES call, tell her you are working with your transitional therapist, and that if it seems appropriate in the future that you will call and schedule another session with her.
Post on Babble, Post on Babble, Post on Babble. Tell your ex what you are doing so he can say "Good. That is a good thing to be doing." Don't try to talk about this with people who haven't been in longterm therapy... they won't have a clue. But we do. And I do. My email is babble fallsfall - it is a hotmail account - or babblemail works, too.
I survived. And I'm really glad I changed therapists. So it can be a good thing - it can be the right thing. Be nice to yourself. This is the time to eat lots of ice cream, and do what YOU want to do (even if people give you strange looks). What are you doing for your vacation? Are you going somewhere? With people you like? Will you have internet access (if not, go to the public library wherever you end up on vacation - they should have public access internet)? This is one of those "one day at a time" kinds of things. Make sure you have an appointment with your transitional therapist for when you get back from vacation (I *always* do better if I have a future appointment, so I know I just have to survive until then). Ask her if you can call (and discuss logistics - should you call at a particular time? If you call how long will it take for her to call back? How long will she be willing to talk on the phone? Will she charge you (if it is a long enough call to do much good, she will charge you - this is OK. Then you don't have to feel like you are imposing on her)?)
Post, post, post.
You can do this. I'll help.
Posted by sunny10 on November 17, 2004, at 11:21:12
In reply to Re: obsession » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 11:00:19
remember, too, while that googling the old T is pointless right now (but NOT abnormal), try to think of googling the new T as advocating for yourself.
It IS important that you know enough about a new T to make yourself comfortable enough to work with them.
Some "obsessions" are actually good for us.
Don't beat yourself up so much- letting go of old habits and starting newer, healthier ones is still a scary time. You have a right to feel this way.
Nothing you are doing sounds "wrong" to me.
Just think, you'll actually be able to have a good start with the new T, having read up on her!
And give yourself permission to "be", in any way that helps you to help yourself like you obviously are by starting with a new T.
-sunny10
Posted by fallsfall on November 17, 2004, at 11:29:24
In reply to obsession, posted by crushedout on November 16, 2004, at 23:18:46
P.S. How to stop -
Distraction, Distraction, Distraction.
See all of the movies that you've been meaning to see - in the theatre, on tape, on TV.
If you have friends who will do things with you ask them to drag you out of the house.
Try to limit the times you check your email - if you have it set to automatically notify you when you have new mail, turn that off. When you are online you can Babble, play games, chat with friends, go to chat rooms, read whatever you want - but only check your email at set times.
Do whatever makes it so you can get through this time (my best distraction was always reading psychology/therapy books from the university - I think that lots of the time I wasn't retaining ANYTHING that I read - I was just decoding the words one at a time. But it made me *feel* like I was doing something productive (finding my own cure?). I don't really recommend this technique. But my point is that whatever you find helps get you through doesn't have to have *value* in and of itself - the value is that it helps you survive through this period.)
There have been many posts on Babble about "What to do when you need distraction". You can probably find mine by searching for "swings" or "bubbles". Or check out "The woman's comfort book".
Let me know how it goes.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 17, 2004, at 16:43:00
In reply to Re: obsession » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 17, 2004, at 11:29:24
Yay, I am so proud of you for the letter! Well done. I too have a habit of obsessing a bit... But maybe you will be able to work through that with your new T? Your old one didn't seem to be too helpful in that respect, but hopefully your new one will be much better for you.
My thoughts are with you at this hard time.
I hope you have a wonderful holiday :-)
Posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 19:34:41
In reply to Re: obsession » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 17, 2004, at 11:29:24
Eeek. I'm kind of freaking out. I'll post more soon.
Posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 19:43:30
In reply to Re: obsession, posted by alexandra_k on November 17, 2004, at 16:43:00
"Hi [crushed],"I'm not sure what you have been going through during this break, but I gather that it hurts and that you are protecting yourself by not meeting with me.
"You are thinking of ending therapy with me. What I understand is that something changed in our relationship, something in the way that I related to you, and that it was painful to experience and to talk about. Even if you decide to leave, it might help to try to talk about what happened. In my life, I have learned a lot from some pretty painful conversations and have been glad that I stuck with them.
"I'll hold the time for you on Tuesday the 30th in the hope that you will consider coming in. And I won't permanently fill your session times until I hear a more definite decision from you.
"my best to you,
[Ellen]"
Posted by Skittles on November 17, 2004, at 21:05:14
In reply to what she wrote, posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 19:43:30
I don't know what you were hoping for or expecting but I think this was a really nice response. She seemed to leave it open for you to go either way and feel good about whatever you do. But it leaves you in a quandry, doesn't it?
Posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 21:23:09
In reply to Re: what she wrote » crushedout, posted by Skittles on November 17, 2004, at 21:05:14
Posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 21:54:54
In reply to Re: what she wrote » crushedout, posted by Skittles on November 17, 2004, at 21:05:14
Actually, I disagree that she left it open where I could feel good about whatever I do. She makes it sound like if I don't go back, I'll be running away from something and regret it.
Posted by annierose on November 17, 2004, at 22:11:21
In reply to Re: what she wrote » Skittles, posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 21:54:54
WOW! This is tough. It was such a kind response.
And although you wanted to read that, it would have been easier to have no reply. Having been where you are now, I know how difficult this is.
It is so painful, whatever road you choose. I agree with her comment that to talk about your termination would be a good conversation, but not if it will pull you back into a situation that you feel is not working for you right now. I feel for you. Good Luck with whatever you decide. I'm glad you are consulting with the other T. And try to enjoy your vacation. I'm going away myself! First time to travel over Thanksgiving, so it should be fun (even though it is to the in-laws).
Posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 22:25:10
In reply to Re: what she wrote, posted by annierose on November 17, 2004, at 22:11:21
Don't be completely taken in by her "kindness." I think she's a master manipulator.
Posted by fallsfall on November 17, 2004, at 23:00:36
In reply to what she wrote, posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 19:43:30
You gave her the option to do what she wanted with her schedule, and she has. But you have no obligation to go on the 30th, or to other sessions after that. You have told her that you aren't planning to come, so you shouldn't need to pay for them, nor feel guilty if she doesn't fill the slots.
At least she understands that you are protecting yourself.
Yes, you *do* need to work through what has gone on in the relationship with her. But it is not necessarily true that you need to work through that *with her*. You can do that work with someone else. (You seem to be in a similar position to where I was, where I *couldn't* work through it with her - so I *had* to find someone else who I could work through it with)
Try not to read things into what she said. All she actually said was that she will have your appointment available on the 30th, if you want to come. And that it can be helpful to talk about issues. Try to leave it at that.
Now she has responded, so you can stop worrying about what she will say. I can't imagine that even she would write again before the 30th. So try to catch your breath and figure out with your new therapist how to move on.
You are doing great. Hang in there.
Posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 23:22:04
In reply to Re: what she wrote » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 17, 2004, at 23:00:36
Thanks, falls. This was a lot harder than I was anticipating, getting this email. It helps to hear your perspective on it. You're right that I shouldn't try to read too much into it.She doesn't sound crushed, does she? That bothered me, I think.
But anyway, I knew something like this was coming -- I just didn't know it was going to feel this bad. Nor do I know why it feels bad.
Thank goodness I have an appointment with my new T tomorrow morning. That was a good call to make that appointment.
Posted by alexandra_k on November 17, 2004, at 23:39:09
In reply to Re: what she wrote » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 17, 2004, at 23:00:36
Yeah, I think what you said about her being a 'master manipulator' might not be too far from the truth (based on what I have read you say about her before). I agree with falls, while you do need to work through stuff about her she doesn't really sound like the person for you to be doing that with.
It sounds to me like her boundaries are not very good, or at least not very good with you and the transference stuff is just too much. I say: move on, don't go see her again because that would just bring it all back and maybe give you both false hope that you could continue. I hope your appointment tomorrow goes well. Maybe you could discuss some of this stuff with your new T?
Posted by annierose on November 18, 2004, at 7:28:00
In reply to Re: what she wrote » annierose, posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 22:25:10
Crushed - You are right. I do not know her or her intentions. But I do think, it was "nice" of her to reply in some fashion. When I was in your situation, my T did not reply at all. And that can be hurtful in another way. I quit, and we both moved on. But I was left to sort through that pain on my own. I think you are so smart to have T2 to help you with your decision and sort through any remaining feelings from T1.
Posted by fallsfall on November 18, 2004, at 7:38:13
In reply to Re: what she wrote » fallsfall, posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 23:22:04
I'm sorry it hurts. Hopefully this will be a "therapeutic opportunity" (Don't you just love those...?) so that at least some good can come out of the pain. You are doing great. Yes, making the appointment with your new therapist was an excellent idea.
I don't know if you are like me in this other respect: I have always been really bad at knowing when to quit, when to give up and move on. I have repeatedly kept working on something long past the time when it was helpful simply because I didn't know how to determine that I was wasting my time. In your circumstance this would translate into keeping trying to make the therapy work - because if it wasn't working then I must be doing something wrong. I wouldn't want to fail, so I would keep trying... and keep trying... and keep trying... So when my therapist didn't call me back I think that in one sense I was really confused - why was she giving up (particularly without a fight)? Giving up was so foreign to me. In retrospect, I think that she was simply using reasonable judgement in knowing when it wasn't time to fight anymore. It is all getting a little less foreign to me now, but this issue has taken me a long time to work on.
I know that it feels bad. Just try to remember that just because it feels bad, that it doesn't necessarily mean that it is the wrong thing to be doing. Sometimes the right thing feels bad, too. Like getting a shot - it hurts for the moment, but is helpful in the long run.
Good luck with your session this morning.
Posted by annierose on November 18, 2004, at 11:42:19
In reply to Re: what she wrote » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on November 18, 2004, at 7:38:13
I really like what you said. It's so true.
-Annie
Posted by Rigby on November 18, 2004, at 14:28:38
In reply to what she wrote, posted by crushedout on November 17, 2004, at 19:43:30
Hey Crushed,
I'm with Falls on this in terms of not reading too much into it and trying to move on.
Speaking of moving on--NOT--I'm seeing The Therapist (ex-therapist???) today to clear the air. I just don't live my life with weirdness like this so I wanted to get clear. I feel okay about it. I had to get over me paying for this clarity but in the long haul she's given me a relatively good monetary deal so I can swallow it.
How'd your T2 Appointment go?
Rigby
> "Hi [crushed],
>
> "I'm not sure what you have been going through during this break, but I gather that it hurts and that you are protecting yourself by not meeting with me.
>
> "You are thinking of ending therapy with me. What I understand is that something changed in our relationship, something in the way that I related to you, and that it was painful to experience and to talk about. Even if you decide to leave, it might help to try to talk about what happened. In my life, I have learned a lot from some pretty painful conversations and have been glad that I stuck with them.
>
> "I'll hold the time for you on Tuesday the 30th in the hope that you will consider coming in. And I won't permanently fill your session times until I hear a more definite decision from you.
>
> "my best to you,
> [Ellen]"
Posted by crushedout on November 18, 2004, at 23:14:13
In reply to Re: what she wrote » crushedout, posted by Rigby on November 18, 2004, at 14:28:38
Hey Rigby,My session didn't go great today. I was feeling really out of it and couldn't verbalize what was going on or what I needed or how I was feeling or anything. It was frustrating. And I'm left feeling stuck and uncertain and slightly miserable. Not sure of what I'm doing with the old T anymore. I have to admit (somewhat selfishly, I fear) that hearing that you're going back to see your old T throws me into somewhat of a tizzy.
How did it go?????
crushedout
Posted by Rigby on November 19, 2004, at 12:51:32
In reply to today's sessions » Rigby, posted by crushedout on November 18, 2004, at 23:14:13
Hi Crushed,
Any ideas why you were feeling out of it? I would imagine it would be not only frustrating but disappointing to go through so much effort to make a change and then to not feel better or like you were making progress. Maybe best not to judge the transition based on one bad session. Would be interested to hear what Falls would say.
> My session didn't go great today. I was feeling really out of it and couldn't verbalize what was going on or what I needed or how I was feeling or anything. It was frustrating. And I'm left feeling stuck and uncertain and slightly miserable. Not sure of what I'm doing with the old T anymore.Also wondering why my decision would throw you into a tizzy?
>I have to admit (somewhat selfishly, I fear) that hearing that you're going back to see your old T throws me into somewhat of a tizzy.It was clarifying. And I'm glad I went. I need to say though that I'm not in love or in transference with my therapist at this point so my situation is different from yours I think. It's just much less about my relationship with her. I have a lot going on in my life--major stuff that impacts people I love in major ways and I need the best advise possible. So while it was no love fest, it was good to clear some stuff up and to be able to listen to her thoughts and advise and assess what I think of them. There was no committment to see each other again so I can just mull it. She made her pitch for me to see her more often than once/week and I just let it go, as usual. I'm not made of money.
> How did it go?????
Posted by crushedout on November 19, 2004, at 22:48:17
In reply to Re: today's sessions » crushedout, posted by Rigby on November 19, 2004, at 12:51:32
Yeah, I've just been having trouble getting going in the morning lately. I'm starting light therapy and I hope that will help but it hasn't started helping much yet. I guess that was part of it. Another part was the email from the old T. That's really been nagging at me. I don't know why it hit me so hard. I guess I had to get hit eventually. (And there we were, hoping all my grieving was over. Oh well.)I dunno why you going back threw me into a tizzy. You were my role model and now I realize I'm out here on my own. What the @#%&* am I doing? I hate this. I miss her really bad. Why can't she be in my life in some other way, not as my T? Why can't she be my wife? I ache. I suffer. I mope.
(Sorry for being so melodramatic.)
P.S. What was the name of that website you directed me to, right after the CD incident? The one that you used a long time ago? Do you remember?
Posted by Rigby on November 20, 2004, at 0:05:28
In reply to Re: today's sessions » Rigby, posted by crushedout on November 19, 2004, at 22:48:17
Hi Crushed,
Sorry it's been so rough. :(
I'm not real sure if I'll keep going to my therapist or not but **please** remember that my situation is really different from yours. You have some very deep, unresolved feelings for your therapist and that's what's so difficult for you. What's hard for me now are things in my life (outside of therapy) so it's more about making sure this woman can help me.
You made your decision to try and resolve that transference elsewhere since it wasn't going away with her. Keep this in mind.
Try and think through, if you can, this mystery of transference with your therapist. You've been in therapy long enough to try and think it through, hard, on your own a bit. You might have a revelation or two--a moment of clarity that could help. Sometimes it's helpful to force yourself to be analytical. I was able to help myself a few times on some long runs--just thinking things through (it can take 6 to 7 miles though!)
The site url is:
http://www.twhj.net/cgi-bin/u/discus.cgiKeep writing, okay?
> Yeah, I've just been having trouble getting going in the morning lately. I'm starting light therapy and I hope that will help but it hasn't started helping much yet. I guess that was part of it. Another part was the email from the old T. That's really been nagging at me. I don't know why it hit me so hard. I guess I had to get hit eventually. (And there we were, hoping all my grieving was over. Oh well.)
>
> I dunno why you going back threw me into a tizzy. You were my role model and now I realize I'm out here on my own. What the @#%&* am I doing? I hate this. I miss her really bad. Why can't she be in my life in some other way, not as my T? Why can't she be my wife? I ache. I suffer. I mope.
>
> (Sorry for being so melodramatic.)
>
> P.S. What was the name of that website you directed me to, right after the CD incident? The one that you used a long time ago? Do you remember?
Posted by fallsfall on November 20, 2004, at 18:28:36
In reply to today's sessions » Rigby, posted by crushedout on November 18, 2004, at 23:14:13
I guess that I'm not so surprised that you felt "out of it". You are in the middle of a lot of stress right now - that always makes me feel out of it... The email from your old therapist really impacted you (again, this isn't surprising to me) - So there would be likely to be some resistance on your part with the new therapist ("If I can prove that I can't make any progress with you, either, then I can go back to my old therapist"? or "See, you don't know me very well - if you did then you could get me to focus"? or "I can't live without my old therapist, regardless of what you do"? or something else?? I'm just guessing).
You are tired. You didn't want to open up a lot of stuff and then go on vacation. You don't want to hear the new therapist say that you shouldn't see your old therapist again. You are wounded by your old therapist, you don't want to give your new therapist the opportunity to wound you as well.
Have fun on your vacation. Try to relax. There will be time in the future to talk to your new therapist.
Falls.
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