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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 17:41:36
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 10:23:10
> Stared at body parts he probably shouldn't have. I understand men looking at women. I looked at his beautiful ass too. But I did it when his back was turned. Hmhm. He made a display of himself looking at parts of me. I don't know, maybe it was just honesty? But I read facial expressions, it's what I do. And he was in fantasyland.
Hi Susan47,
I hope you and Rigby don't mind me jumping in here, but I'm having this experience and I'm at a loss as to what to do. How did you deal with it? Did you say something to him? I'm really attached to him - leaving seems really painful. Any words on this would be greatly appreciated!BigFish
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 17:51:24
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 17:41:36
Unfortunately, I dealt with it according to my feelings and my past history. And I suppose that's what each of us will do. I became personally very angry, turned on, and frightened. And reacted accordingly. And my therapist, trying to be a blank slate after all, was unhelpful.
What you do probably will be affected by your own past and your therapist's ability to be introspective and honest with you. I don't know, I'm guessing and I know nothing. Tell us more though.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:03:13
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 17:41:36
If you feel you can't talk to your therapist about a sexual way he or she looks at you then I believe you don't trust him or her. The question is, is it because there was a sexual look, or is it because you interpreted it that way, and do you want to find out? Will your therapist be honest with you or will your therapist lie about it? I believe that therapists lie all the time.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:04:16
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, Big Fish, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:03:13
...based on no real knowledge. I'm sure there are honest therapists out there; at least, they honestly want good results.
Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:09:45
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » BigFish, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 17:51:24
> Unfortunately, I dealt with it according to my feelings and my past history. And I suppose that's what each of us will do. I became personally very angry, turned on, and frightened. And reacted accordingly. And my therapist, trying to be a blank slate after all, was unhelpful.
> What you do probably will be affected by your own past and your therapist's ability to be introspective and honest with you. I don't know, I'm guessing and I know nothing. Tell us more though.I've been going to him for 3 and a half years. Starting in Jan I went 2 times a week rather than just a 1x a month med check b/c I was feeling really suicidal. He's asked me, in a round about way, if I had a crush on him. I admitted it but in the months since I haven't brought it up - I'm too embarassed. He also has pressed in on that numerous times in a veiled way. I thought it was maybe for 'theraputic' reasons, but I've talked to a few people who've had therapy and they said they thought that this was strange- why is he pursuing this unless it means something to him personally. Then there are the 'looks.' Like what you describe. I feel really stuck.
BigFish
Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:25:44
In reply to I'm sorry it's just an opinion, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:04:16
> ...based on no real knowledge. I'm sure there are honest therapists out there; at least, they honestly want good results.
I appreciate your opinion. I fear getting gaslighted. He did that to me once about an interaction that we had on the phone. Also, I'm quick to think that, when a man seems attracted to me, I must be imagining it. Since this has gone on for so long, I'm now wondering if that's not the case.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:26:21
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:09:45
The reason I couldn't bring up the looks with my therapist is because I felt like a homely child and an outcast all my childhood and adolescence. So as an adult woman, I've always tried to be as physically perfect as I had the energy for. So if I asked my therapist if his look was about me or not, and he said *No* for whatever reason, it would feel like a rejection.
Especially in light of the fact that I thought he was the cat's meow right from the get-go.
If I *knew* or *thought* truly that I were attractive I don't think I would've had a problem asking him. If I knew or thought that he found me attractive, I would've been able to ask him. Can you ask your therapist if he finds you attractive? Bring it right out into the open. What do you think will happen?
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:36:11
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:09:45
I have an acquaintance who used to be a therapist, and he told me that if he felt a patient was transferring to him, he got another therapist into the action right away. He wasn't comfortable with that. And he talked to me about therapists who "need" their clients. Is it possible your therapist is one of these? Is he trying to encourage something legitimate for therapy, or something for himself? That's such a hard question for us little therapy-goers to answer isn't it? You've invested three and a half years; but you know you can take yourself away at any time, because the progress you've made you can take with you?
But it's so so hard to terminate with a therapist. I was wrenched away from mine even though I had these issues, maybe because of them I don't really know, will probably never know. I went/am going through the most painful blow to my self-esteem. But I *am* going to be all right, I think. Better than I was before I ever met my ex-therapist, which I'm sure is a good thing. However, there was collateral damage.
You probably have to decide when to cut the cord, at this point. It doesn't sound like he's going to do it. I know mine wouldn't have if I hadn't tested his patience to the limit. I tried that man. I was such an angry patient. I just realized, we're not clients as long as we're needy. Ew. My therapist always insisted on calling us "patients". I hated that. I used to call myself a client, d*** him.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:37:17
In reply to Re: I'm sorry it's just an opinion » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:25:44
Okay, so you're quick to think you're imagining it. Read my next post, what do you think? Do we have anything in common here?
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:38:06
In reply to Re: I'm sorry it's just an opinion » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:25:44
What do you mean by "gaslighted" and what happened on the phone?
Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:38:20
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:26:21
> The reason I couldn't bring up the looks with my therapist is because I felt like a homely child and an outcast all my childhood and adolescence. So as an adult woman, I've always tried to be as physically perfect as I had the energy for. So if I asked my therapist if his look was about me or not, and he said *No* for whatever reason, it would feel like a rejection.
> Especially in light of the fact that I thought he was the cat's meow right from the get-go.
> If I *knew* or *thought* truly that I were attractive I don't think I would've had a problem asking him. If I knew or thought that he found me attractive, I would've been able to ask him. Can you ask your therapist if he finds you attractive? Bring it right out into the open. What do you think will happen?I can really relate to what you're saying! I have serious self doubts and I'm scared of his reaction. What if he laughs "You? What makes you think I might find you attractive?" There are moments when I feel he has no empathy, and what if this will be one of them. I'll be crushed.
Posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:52:06
In reply to Re: I'm sorry it's just an opinion, posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:38:06
> What do you mean by "gaslighted" and what happened on the phone?
>He changed his phone style. He had been very abrupt, always hanging up after he said what he needed to say with barely an audible 'thanks'. And then one phone call [to change our appt. time] after I said ok to the time change there was a long pause. He wasn't hanging up. Then he said 'thank you.' I said 'your welcome.' Another long pause. He said 'bye.' Then I said 'bye.' It made the hairs on the back of my neck stick up for some reason. Maybe his tone of voice? I asked him a few days later if I had been hanging up on him [ I really didn't think so, he'd always hung up on me]. He didn't answer my question at all, just said 'well i couldn't tell you. so what do you make of your asking me this' or something like that. It made me feel sort of nuts. He's done this every phone call since, too.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 18:52:35
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:38:20
I know.
Posted by Susan47 on August 23, 2004, at 20:31:19
In reply to Re: I'm sorry it's just an opinion, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:52:06
Posted by AuntieMel on August 24, 2004, at 11:31:14
In reply to Re: Boundary Stuff » Susan47, posted by BigFish on August 23, 2004, at 18:09:45
I absolutely don't want any personal kind of relationship. Fortunately he tends to keep things professional, but if/when he does, I tend to throw his own techniques right back at him....
So:
If he were to stare at body parts, I would ask (in a polite, friendly way) what he was looking at.
If he were to ask if I had a crush, I would ask him why he asks that.
One time he asked if I thought I was getting anything out of therapy. "Why do you ask?" I thought he was getting ready to fire me. It turned out all he was interested in was *my* impressions and did I think I was progressing.
Posted by Susan47 on August 24, 2004, at 11:34:50
In reply to Re: Boundaries - Susan and BigFish, posted by AuntieMel on August 24, 2004, at 11:31:14
Auntie Mel,
You're very smart about therapy, and I like your approach very much.
Posted by AuntieMel on August 24, 2004, at 13:26:12
In reply to Re: Boundaries - Susan and BigFish, posted by Susan47 on August 24, 2004, at 11:34:50
Just self preservation mixed with a tendency to be really slow to trust.
Posted by BigFish on August 24, 2004, at 18:19:48
In reply to Not smart » Susan47, posted by AuntieMel on August 24, 2004, at 13:26:12
> Just self preservation mixed with a tendency to be really slow to trust.
Yep, I can relate. Thanks so much for your input.
Posted by Susan47 on August 25, 2004, at 19:53:39
In reply to Re: Not smart » AuntieMel, posted by BigFish on August 24, 2004, at 18:19:48
I was just rereading through some posts and realize I could've been misunderstood when I said "Sounds like games, if it's real". That could've been interpreted as being crazy-making but that isn't the way I meant it.
Posted by crushedout on August 31, 2004, at 21:18:34
In reply to Re: Dumb question, posted by Rigby on August 23, 2004, at 12:10:28
Rigby,
I hope it's ok if I jump in at this late hour. I've found this whole thread rather compelling and disturbing (so disturbing, I must add, that I haven't been able to read much of it at a time, and still haven't finished it, so forgive me if I say stuff that's already stale). I'm not exactly sure why I find it so disturbing, but that's not the point.
I have trouble thinking it's a coincidence, this parallel. And it's odd (to me) that I'm experiencing such a similar parallel in my own life. Of course, I don't know if my T was ever a lesbian (I would guess not) but I know *I* was, and now I'm involved in a pretty serious relationship with a guy for the first time in 13 years. I don't think it's a coincidence for me that this is happening and that my T is straight. I dunno. It's all very mystifying and disconcerting to me to tell you the truth.
The whole thing makes me queasy. I don't know what to make of it.
> When you say more focused, what does that mean to you? Does it seem weird that my life would parallel her's like this?
> > Okay, in light of what you said about your therapist being lesbian for a while, then marrying a guy, that changes everything. Now everything you've said about her therapeutic relationship with you and your feelings around that seems more focussed.
>
>
Posted by Rigby on September 1, 2004, at 10:09:52
In reply to Re: Dumb question » Rigby, posted by crushedout on August 31, 2004, at 21:18:34
It's an odd situation,for sure, but not sure why it makes you queasy. Hmmmm...
Anyway, although there are parallels with me and my therapist I tend to think that it's about me vs. she and I. I guess what I mean to say is that the process of therapy should open you up and I suppose I'm just more open to attractions from either gender.
My concern has been whether or not I'm getting good advise and good therapy due to these parallels and supposed similarities in personality. When I got a whiff of her screwing up her boundaries again a few weeks ago it made me think more than twice about how she may over-identify with me.
I'm not in love with my therapist and I don't feel that I'm in a sexual relationship with a man due to her influence or past history--I just don't see that. Maybe therapy with her triggered feelings in me from way back but, again, this is about me and if the feelings/emotions weren't mine and there to begin with there would be nothing to trigger.
I guess this is all to say that maybe your therapy is working and that you're just more open or okay with guys (vs. something going on relative to you and your relationship with your therapist.) Anyway, I hope it's the former and not the latter.
> I hope it's ok if I jump in at this late hour. I've found this whole thread rather compelling and disturbing (so disturbing, I must add, that I haven't been able to read much of it at a time, and still haven't finished it, so forgive me if I say stuff that's already stale). I'm not exactly sure why I find it so disturbing, but that's not the point.
>
> I have trouble thinking it's a coincidence, this parallel. And it's odd (to me) that I'm experiencing such a similar parallel in my own life. Of course, I don't know if my T was ever a lesbian (I would guess not) but I know *I* was, and now I'm involved in a pretty serious relationship with a guy for the first time in 13 years. I don't think it's a coincidence for me that this is happening and that my T is straight. I dunno. It's all very mystifying and disconcerting to me to tell you the truth.
>
> The whole thing makes me queasy. I don't know what to make of it.
>
>
>
> > When you say more focused, what does that mean to you? Does it seem weird that my life would parallel her's like this?
> > > Okay, in light of what you said about your therapist being lesbian for a while, then marrying a guy, that changes everything. Now everything you've said about her therapeutic relationship with you and your feelings around that seems more focussed.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by crushedout on September 1, 2004, at 13:15:34
In reply to Re: Dumb question » crushedout, posted by Rigby on September 1, 2004, at 10:09:52
I hate the idea that therapy made us "open" to guys, even if that's true. It smacks too much of "reparative therapy." Ick.I honestly don't think it's true for me, anyway. I think the right guy just came along, maybe. Which also makes my skin crawl (you don't know how many men have told me I was a lesbian because I just hadn't "met the right man yet." I should have said, "Yeah, and you're straight for the same reason").
But that's not what makes me queasy. I just don't like the idea of my T thinking I'm "healthier" now because I'm with a man and it's somehow thanks to her. If anything, the opposite is true.
Posted by Rigby on September 1, 2004, at 13:40:56
In reply to Re: Dumb question » Rigby, posted by crushedout on September 1, 2004, at 13:15:34
I don't hate the thought that therapy made me more open to guys (or at least one.) I do not take it that way at all. I'm psyched that I didn't go to my grave not knowing this important piece of me.
However, I get what you're saying though about the reparative therapy. But it seems pretty implausible, at least to me (and maybe it's because my therapist is in Berkeley) that a therapist would be doing subversive therapy to get someone to go straight. I mean it actually never ever occured to me. I might have that thought if I transferred maternal feelings onto my therapist because, of course, my mother would *love* for me to be with a guy! But I don't think my therapist had any thoughts in this direction at all--conscious or not. I sure hope yours doesn't--and yes, that would make me queasy too!!! It'd be a good question to ask her!
> I hate the idea that therapy made us "open" to guys, even if that's true. It smacks too much of "reparative therapy." Ick.
>
> I honestly don't think it's true for me, anyway. I think the right guy just came along, maybe. Which also makes my skin crawl (you don't know how many men have told me I was a lesbian because I just hadn't "met the right man yet." I should have said, "Yeah, and you're straight for the same reason").
>
> But that's not what makes me queasy. I just don't like the idea of my T thinking I'm "healthier" now because I'm with a man and it's somehow thanks to her. If anything, the opposite is true.
Posted by crushedout on September 1, 2004, at 13:47:54
In reply to Re: Dumb question » crushedout, posted by Rigby on September 1, 2004, at 13:40:56
Oh, I'm not suggesting that either of our Ts actually had some kind of strategy to make us go straight. I'm just saying they might, now, be happy about it, if only because it affirms and reinforces their own life choices. I read a psychology article about therapy with lesbians and they did a study (and this makes sense) that showed that Ts were pleased when their clients changed to be more like them.All I'm saying is it confirms what obnoxious people think and say about "lesbians" -- not that my T set out to do this to me (nor yours you).
Posted by Rigby on September 2, 2004, at 0:33:58
In reply to Re: Dumb question » Rigby, posted by crushedout on September 1, 2004, at 13:47:54
Eeeeeeks!!!! That article you refer to gives me the heebeegeebies!! Anyway, despite potentially disappointing my therapist, I do not plan on doing straight time for good--like it's a nice place to visit (surprisingly so) but I don't think I'd want to stay with it long term. But again, an interesting ride, hem, for sure.
Hope your therapist isn't looking too hot these days. ;)
>I'm just saying they might, now, be happy about it, if only because it affirms and reinforces their own life choices. I read a psychology article about therapy with lesbians and they did a study (and this makes sense) that showed that Ts were pleased when their clients changed to be more like them.
>
> All I'm saying is it confirms what obnoxious people think and say about "lesbians" -- not that my T set out to do this to me (nor yours you).
This is the end of the thread.
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