![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 26. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 14:05:04
I wonder if someone can give me some advice.
I started therapy just under a year ago with a female psychologist whom I found very difficult to approach at first, as she appeared to me to be quite hard and uncompromising. I felt as if she did not really accept me, or could not accept me the way I was. I reasoned with myself that this was some kind of projection of mine, and that it would be best if I tried to work through it with her rather than trying to see someone else. In fact I have done precisely this, and am still in therapy with her. I have opened up a lot to her, often not trusting whether she would still be there at the end of the session, but she has invariably been there for me, and has swallowed all the insults I have paid her along the way as well. I have grown to quite like her over the months. I find her very down to earth and pragmatic – perhaps too much so. She doesn’t really leave much space for my creative side (or maybe I don’t?) or the unconscious things that come up. She knows how ambivalent I am about her and accepts the ambivalence, even though I accuse her of being there only for the money. I have been away on holiday twice in this time, and have had no sense of loss or anger towards her.
A month after I started seeing her, she referred me to a male psychiatrist for medication for depression. It was a totally different experience at once. It felt as if he really understood me, as if we spoke the same language, as if he understood every metaphor I used. Everything that is said in my sessions with him takes on a heightened importance for me, which means I remember things so much better and can reflect later on what was said. I have had many dreams involving him as a mentor, priest etc. I was away recently for a few weeks and felt a huge loss – I telephoned most days just to hear his voice on the answering service. In other words, a classic case of transference, such as many of you describe. I don’t really have any sexual feelings about him, although I have no doubt they could surface, while I have had sexual fantasies about my T. Strange that! I have discussed my feelings about him with my T, and have also let my Pdoc know that I am ambivalent about my therapist.
I have also told my Pdoc what I feel about him, indirectly via a dream.
However we have now stabilized my meds, and I have no further reason to see him until November. I tried to talk to my therapist about this, as I would ideally like to see both of them on an ongoing basis. She says there is no way this can work, and insists that I should stay in therapy with her and work through the transference issues surrounding him with her. I accept that it probably doesn’t work to be in therapy with two people at the same time, but since I have to choose, I think I would rather choose my psychiatrist. I feel it is almost impossible for me to give him up.
My Pdoc has been very discreet and non-committal about the whole matter, although I must be honest and say that I haven’t left him the space to turn me away – I told him I was not going to see him again when I last saw him at the beginning of June, but I have thought of him so much since then that it seems impossible to stay with that. I have also quarreled with my T over her insistence that I should stay with her. We are now in crisis mode, according to her.
Please can you advise me what you think I should do, since you all have experience of therapy and transference issues. Should I keep trudging on with my therapist? I had decided at the outset that I should be in therapy with a woman because I have been sexually abused in the past, both by my father and by a psychiatrist many years ago, but I feel I can trust this pdoc, and that the sex of the therapist does not really matter, it’s really a question of understanding. I have this horrible feeling you are all going to say that I should stay with my T., but I really feel that I have to keep seeing him.
I hope this message is not too garbled.
Posted by pinkeye on July 16, 2004, at 14:24:18
In reply to Transference - choices, posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 14:05:04
If it is an option to stay with your pdoc and get therapy from him, I would chose that. Why stay with a therapist you don't really care too much about?
But if your pdoc does not do therapy, and you cannot see him till november anyways, you can stay with your T.
Other option would be to try to find a T who would be a better fit for you. Maybe since you were abused sexually, real healing could come only from a man? I felt that in my case that if I had gone to a woman, I would not have healed that much since most of my issues were surrounding relationship with men. I had to go to a man of my compatible age to get all (atleast most of )the issues resolved.> I wonder if someone can give me some advice.
>
> I started therapy just under a year ago with a female psychologist whom I found very difficult to approach at first, as she appeared to me to be quite hard and uncompromising. I felt as if she did not really accept me, or could not accept me the way I was. I reasoned with myself that this was some kind of projection of mine, and that it would be best if I tried to work through it with her rather than trying to see someone else. In fact I have done precisely this, and am still in therapy with her. I have opened up a lot to her, often not trusting whether she would still be there at the end of the session, but she has invariably been there for me, and has swallowed all the insults I have paid her along the way as well. I have grown to quite like her over the months. I find her very down to earth and pragmatic – perhaps too much so. She doesn’t really leave much space for my creative side (or maybe I don’t?) or the unconscious things that come up. She knows how ambivalent I am about her and accepts the ambivalence, even though I accuse her of being there only for the money. I have been away on holiday twice in this time, and have had no sense of loss or anger towards her.
>
> A month after I started seeing her, she referred me to a male psychiatrist for medication for depression. It was a totally different experience at once. It felt as if he really understood me, as if we spoke the same language, as if he understood every metaphor I used. Everything that is said in my sessions with him takes on a heightened importance for me, which means I remember things so much better and can reflect later on what was said. I have had many dreams involving him as a mentor, priest etc. I was away recently for a few weeks and felt a huge loss – I telephoned most days just to hear his voice on the answering service. In other words, a classic case of transference, such as many of you describe. I don’t really have any sexual feelings about him, although I have no doubt they could surface, while I have had sexual fantasies about my T. Strange that! I have discussed my feelings about him with my T, and have also let my Pdoc know that I am ambivalent about my therapist.
>
> I have also told my Pdoc what I feel about him, indirectly via a dream.
>
> However we have now stabilized my meds, and I have no further reason to see him until November. I tried to talk to my therapist about this, as I would ideally like to see both of them on an ongoing basis. She says there is no way this can work, and insists that I should stay in therapy with her and work through the transference issues surrounding him with her. I accept that it probably doesn’t work to be in therapy with two people at the same time, but since I have to choose, I think I would rather choose my psychiatrist. I feel it is almost impossible for me to give him up.
>
> My Pdoc has been very discreet and non-committal about the whole matter, although I must be honest and say that I haven’t left him the space to turn me away – I told him I was not going to see him again when I last saw him at the beginning of June, but I have thought of him so much since then that it seems impossible to stay with that. I have also quarreled with my T over her insistence that I should stay with her. We are now in crisis mode, according to her.
>
> Please can you advise me what you think I should do, since you all have experience of therapy and transference issues. Should I keep trudging on with my therapist? I had decided at the outset that I should be in therapy with a woman because I have been sexually abused in the past, both by my father and by a psychiatrist many years ago, but I feel I can trust this pdoc, and that the sex of the therapist does not really matter, it’s really a question of understanding. I have this horrible feeling you are all going to say that I should stay with my T., but I really feel that I have to keep seeing him.
>
> I hope this message is not too garbled.
>
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on July 16, 2004, at 14:39:10
In reply to Re: Transference - choices, posted by pinkeye on July 16, 2004, at 14:24:18
It seems to me most p-docs just deal with medication and nothing else. Does he also "do" therapy? If so, I would dump the current T and go to him since you feel very comfortable and understood by him.
Posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 15:04:48
In reply to Re: Transference - choices, posted by pinkeye on July 16, 2004, at 14:24:18
Thanks for the advice. He does do therapy and I could see him sooner than November, if I wanted to.
I wonder about the gender issue though - I am so scared I would do something sexual that would really mess it all up once again.
Posted by JenStar on July 16, 2004, at 15:56:25
In reply to Transference - choices, posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 14:05:04
hi VWoolfe (great name!)
It sounds like you're going thru a rough spot. I wanted to offer my advice, even though I think you won't like it. If that's the case, feel free to ignore it completely! :)Here's my 2 cents: Stick with the lady doc. You're already half in love with this male psych, and given your past experiences with abuse, that is NOT what you need right now. It might be fun...exciting...heart-racing to see him and think and dream about him. But it WON'T be any good for your therapy.
I truly believe that people who get so wrapped up in their therapist that they can't go a day or a week w/out hearing his voice are doing themselves a great dis-service.
How can you ever get 'whole' and self-reliant if you are grafting yourself onto this person -- who, as you very accurately pointed out -- IS a paid employee? Perhaps a friendly, nice, caring, loving one - but STILL - a paid employee.
Be strong. Avoid the temptation! He's a chocolate bar and you're on a diet. Leave him alone. Stick with the celery stick (the lady doc or another therapist who doesn't make you moony.) It's better for you and you'll be happier when you make those improvements you're seeking.
And work with your lady doc on ways to find a nice, caring, loving man -- the kind that you want to have in your life. (That is, if you don't already have one - I don't know your history so I apologize if you have mentioned a BF/husband before.)
In any case, those are my thoughts. Advice is like jeans...you have to get just the right fit...and if mine doesn't work, just let it go to the resale shop & find another pair that works better. :)
In any case, take care. I hope, truly, that you find the right mix of therapist + you, whomever you choose.
Take care!
JenStar
Posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 16:16:30
In reply to Re: Transference - choices, posted by JenStar on July 16, 2004, at 15:56:25
Hi JenStar
I know the dangers, which is why I'm stuck. But is there any purpose in staying with the lady doc just because she's safe. I thought therapy was supposed to be dangerous and challenging, so that it would enable you to change. Staying safe never did that. Besides, I'm not sure I can - I think this goes beyond my control.
VWoolf
> hi VWoolfe (great name!)
> It sounds like you're going thru a rough spot. I wanted to offer my advice, even though I think you won't like it. If that's the case, feel free to ignore it completely! :)
>
> Here's my 2 cents: Stick with the lady doc. You're already half in love with this male psych, and given your past experiences with abuse, that is NOT what you need right now. It might be fun...exciting...heart-racing to see him and think and dream about him. But it WON'T be any good for your therapy.
>
> I truly believe that people who get so wrapped up in their therapist that they can't go a day or a week w/out hearing his voice are doing themselves a great dis-service.
>
> How can you ever get 'whole' and self-reliant if you are grafting yourself onto this person -- who, as you very accurately pointed out -- IS a paid employee? Perhaps a friendly, nice, caring, loving one - but STILL - a paid employee.
>
> Be strong. Avoid the temptation! He's a chocolate bar and you're on a diet. Leave him alone. Stick with the celery stick (the lady doc or another therapist who doesn't make you moony.) It's better for you and you'll be happier when you make those improvements you're seeking.
>
> And work with your lady doc on ways to find a nice, caring, loving man -- the kind that you want to have in your life. (That is, if you don't already have one - I don't know your history so I apologize if you have mentioned a BF/husband before.)
>
> In any case, those are my thoughts. Advice is like jeans...you have to get just the right fit...and if mine doesn't work, just let it go to the resale shop & find another pair that works better. :)
>
> In any case, take care. I hope, truly, that you find the right mix of therapist + you, whomever you choose.
> Take care!
> JenStar
>
>
Posted by pinkeye on July 16, 2004, at 16:33:04
In reply to Re: Transference - choices, posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 16:16:30
I half agree with JenStar and half disagree. What Jenstar says works for everything other than for owr emotions. If it is a rational issue that we are talking about, I would say avoiding the problem situation and trying to work out the issue without geting involved would be the best approach.
But as far as our own emotions go, reliving and experiencing the same things again and then having a differnt outcome seems to be the only way of healing many times. That is why transference helps you. It helps you relive your past hurt and at the end know that you could have a better outcome than in the past. That is what really heals.
But of course, it would only help if your pdoc is a trusted person. IF you have any doubt that he might end up abusing you again, don't go for it.
Pinkeye.
Posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 16:44:23
In reply to Re: Transference - choices, posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 16:16:30
I think I replied to your mail faster than my brain works - I obviously didn't want to hear what you were saying - and I think I said things I don't believe. I don't think therapy should be dangerous. It should be safe, but I think it must be challenging. And especially, as Pinkeye says, it must speak to the emotions. Neither of which am I finding with my therapist.
Btw, I am in a long term relationship, with someone I am still very close to after all these years.
Posted by Dinah on July 16, 2004, at 17:23:53
In reply to Re: Transference - choices JenStar, posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 16:44:23
It may be just me, but I don't think I'd start a therapeutic relationship with someone I was attracted to. It would seem to be playing with fire, both to my emotions and to my relationship.
My husband and mother both thought my therapist was attractive, but he was never attractive to *me*. Not my physical type at all. If I *had* found him attractive, I don't think I could have worked with him on the level I've worked with him.
I think therapy has worked as well as it has for me because I've been willing to show my therapist the ugliest and most repulsive and embarassing sides of myself. I can't think I'd be willing to do that with someone I felt phyical attraction towards.
Plus, I've seen how much pain it's caused people here on the board. :(
Posted by Dinah on July 16, 2004, at 17:24:32
In reply to Re: Transference - choices JenStar, posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 16:44:23
Posted by JenStar on July 16, 2004, at 17:29:51
In reply to Re: Transference - choices JenStar, posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 16:44:23
hi VWoolfe,
It's hard to offer advice when I don't even really know you! I just kind of blurt out whatever seems to make most sense to me. I agree that therapy should be challenging & take you out of the safety zone without taking you TOO far too fast. I also agree that you should have a very good relationship with the person.Maybe neither the current T nor the "new guy" are the right ones for now? It def. sounds like gave (are giving it) a good shot and really trying to make it work with the current T. But if SHE'S not really getting you or helping you, maybe it's time to move on.
I don't know you well, but I still care about you & want things to work out for you. That's why I was so vehement about not going with the 'cute one' -- he might be more trouble than he's worth!
Anyway, best of luck. Take care!
JenStar
Posted by tryingtobewise on July 16, 2004, at 22:49:18
In reply to Re: Transference - choices JenStar, posted by JenStar on July 16, 2004, at 17:29:51
Hi VWoolfe - I can totally appreciate your dilemma! I think JenStar might be on the right track though. You mentioned your therapist is more "pragmatic"...Maybe she is just more CBT oriented...focused on changing behaviors more than delving into the psyche.
I'm afraid if you switch to the pdoc for therapy too, you will be opening a can of worms in terms of getting sucked into to a situation where you are frustrated by your infatuation, and "need" to see him.
Good luck either way. These things can be so difficult to sort out...
Kim
Posted by shortelise on July 17, 2004, at 1:12:42
In reply to Transference - choices, posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 14:05:04
I cannot imagine the past six years in therapy without the attachment, the ups and downs, the love and hate. I've has to struggle mightily with a variety of emotions - but I've never felt a sexual attraction nor have I ever felt "in love". If I understand correctly, those things can get in the way for some therapies.Listen, Virginia, if you go into therapy with this psychiatrist it's probably going to be really hard and really long. You are going to get in very deep, I think, evidenced by what you write about how you feel around him already. You would hopefully come out at the end more in control of your life and in a better place, but yikes, getting there might be a mighty struggle. Are you ready for that?
If it were me, I'd talk with him, make an appointment and discuss it with him, no holds barred. I'd be as bluntly honest with myself and with him as I could be. Maybe even print out what you've written here and give it to him.
But what do I know? Not much.
Shorte
Posted by pinkeye on July 17, 2004, at 1:23:06
In reply to Re: Transference - choices, posted by shortelise on July 17, 2004, at 1:12:42
Actuallly after reading everyone's posts, I agree with the majority. You would be much safer working with your current T. You would definitely get into quite a bit of struggle and trouble and heartache if you are going to go with your pdoc.
But all said, if I had to make my choice, I would still chose my pdoc even though I know it is probably bad for me. I am usually not strong enough to resist a temptation and feeling attached and understood.
But ultimately it is your call. Or you can do something else, stop seeing your pdoc for 3 months and go with your current T. And try to genuinely work it out. If after 3 months also you still find you are not able to connect with her, then maybe you will be able to say you are done with your T and then try this pdoc or anohter t?
Posted by vwoolf on July 17, 2004, at 9:31:34
In reply to Re: Transference - choices, posted by pinkeye on July 17, 2004, at 1:23:06
Thanks to all of you for the advice – it seems that overwhelmingly you think I should stay with my therapist.However you all seem to have misunderstood my intentions. I actually am not physically and sexually interested in my Pdoc. He is a middle-aged, rather dried-up looking, balding man who reminds me of my elder brother. That’s not the point at all. In fact, as I mentioned, the sexual complication involves my therapist, and is all in my head. Rather I see the psychiatrist as an idealised father-figure. I can imagine myself becoming quite dependent on him, which frightens me. But on the other hand my T is trying to encourage me to trust her enough to become dependent on her. Her theory is that I need to regress to a childhood state of dependency again so that I can learn the meaning of trust and then grow towards independence. The trouble is that I just feel I can’t let go into a trusting relationship with her, while I already feel implicit trust for my Pdoc. (Actually all of this feels very dodgy – regressing to a totally trusting relationship like a child sounds very dangerous, don’t you think?)
I agree that what I feel for him is sort of like love, and is completely projected – it has nothing to do with who he is, and everything to do with who I am. I know that I would need to work through the same issues both with my T and with him, and they both tell me the only difference would be the relationship. But that “only” makes a big difference – I like and respect him, and don’t really like her too much.
This therapy represents a huge investment for me, both in time and money. My medical insurance does not cover any psychiatric treatment at all, so I am having to finance two or three sessions a week plus all the meds out of my own pocket. My T says it will take three to five years of therapy to reach a satisfactory outcome, which makes it a very significant sum of money. It is exhausting me emotionally as well, so that my work performance is less than brilliant at the moment. I really need this to work well, in the best of possible ways. It can’t just be something that will tick by slowly.
I am reading an interesting book at the moment by a Jungian analyst and academic, Aldo Carotenuto, called "The Spiral Way – A Woman’s Healing Journey" in which he says the following which I feel has relevance to where I am:
“In the sphere of therapy, it frequently happens that the patient tries to keep one foot on one side and one on the other. Often the thing to do is to give a strong push that breaks every tie with the old world, in such a way that the person runs every possible risk, because it is precisely by taking risks that the patient is saved, no longer having the option to turn back. In many cases what appears to be appropriate caution is actually a symptom of the neurosis that would rather leave things unchanged.” (Page 90)
and
“Jung…. observes that everything is hidden in the transference, the most beautiful and the most shameful, because through it we relive the whole of our experience, both positive and negative. Our personal psychology, impossible to communicate in so many words, is laid bare in the transference: our inner life is unveiled, where previously it had been projected onto others.” (Page 96).
Posted by Dinah on July 17, 2004, at 12:10:28
In reply to Transference - another try, posted by vwoolf on July 17, 2004, at 9:31:34
Well, I didn't actually say you should stay with your current therapist. :) Perhaps there is some therapist out there who is a nice happy medium.
It makes a *huge* difference in my eyes that you aren't attracted to or likely to fall in love with your prospective therapist. If it's "just" a paternal tranference, that's something that can be worked on in therapy. But you need to be honest with your potential therapist, because a fair number of therapists don't want to wade in deep transference waters - in my experience M.D.'s particularly.
If you do decide to dive into this, and he's agreeable, you're probably in for quite a ride. I see my therapist as my therapist/mommy. And while I think the transference part of our relationship has been well under control for some time, it took quite a while and quite a bit of distress on both our parts to get there. I can only imagine that if romantic transference were added in I would have *never* made it to the other side. It helped *a lot* that my therapist is very laid back and was willing to work on his own issues that my transference brought up.
Looking back, if I'd have known then what I know now, I'd have to think long and hard and given my viewpoint at the time (shut off emotionally) I probably wouldn't have done it. Now, as I look back, I'm very glad I did do it. On the other hand, if he had known that this simple CBT therapy for OCD would have turned into what it turned into, I don't think he would have taken me on.
Posted by pinkeye on July 17, 2004, at 12:21:33
In reply to Transference - another try, posted by vwoolf on July 17, 2004, at 9:31:34
If you are not romantically attracted to your pdoc, go for him. Why waste time and money with your T when you obviously don't feel too much for her?
But if there was romance involved, then it is a different issue and you would be safer with your T.
>
> Thanks to all of you for the advice – it seems that overwhelmingly you think I should stay with my therapist.
>
> However you all seem to have misunderstood my intentions. I actually am not physically and sexually interested in my Pdoc. He is a middle-aged, rather dried-up looking, balding man who reminds me of my elder brother. That’s not the point at all. In fact, as I mentioned, the sexual complication involves my therapist, and is all in my head. Rather I see the psychiatrist as an idealised father-figure. I can imagine myself becoming quite dependent on him, which frightens me. But on the other hand my T is trying to encourage me to trust her enough to become dependent on her. Her theory is that I need to regress to a childhood state of dependency again so that I can learn the meaning of trust and then grow towards independence. The trouble is that I just feel I can’t let go into a trusting relationship with her, while I already feel implicit trust for my Pdoc. (Actually all of this feels very dodgy – regressing to a totally trusting relationship like a child sounds very dangerous, don’t you think?)
>
> I agree that what I feel for him is sort of like love, and is completely projected – it has nothing to do with who he is, and everything to do with who I am. I know that I would need to work through the same issues both with my T and with him, and they both tell me the only difference would be the relationship. But that “only” makes a big difference – I like and respect him, and don’t really like her too much.
>
> This therapy represents a huge investment for me, both in time and money. My medical insurance does not cover any psychiatric treatment at all, so I am having to finance two or three sessions a week plus all the meds out of my own pocket. My T says it will take three to five years of therapy to reach a satisfactory outcome, which makes it a very significant sum of money. It is exhausting me emotionally as well, so that my work performance is less than brilliant at the moment. I really need this to work well, in the best of possible ways. It can’t just be something that will tick by slowly.
>
> I am reading an interesting book at the moment by a Jungian analyst and academic, Aldo Carotenuto, called "The Spiral Way – A Woman’s Healing Journey" in which he says the following which I feel has relevance to where I am:
>
> “In the sphere of therapy, it frequently happens that the patient tries to keep one foot on one side and one on the other. Often the thing to do is to give a strong push that breaks every tie with the old world, in such a way that the person runs every possible risk, because it is precisely by taking risks that the patient is saved, no longer having the option to turn back. In many cases what appears to be appropriate caution is actually a symptom of the neurosis that would rather leave things unchanged.” (Page 90)
>
> and
>
> “Jung…. observes that everything is hidden in the transference, the most beautiful and the most shameful, because through it we relive the whole of our experience, both positive and negative. Our personal psychology, impossible to communicate in so many words, is laid bare in the transference: our inner life is unveiled, where previously it had been projected onto others.” (Page 96).
>
Posted by antigua on July 17, 2004, at 13:58:31
In reply to Transference - another try, posted by vwoolf on July 17, 2004, at 9:31:34
Hi vwoolf,
I've been in therapy for a LONG time (14 years yikes!)and I've been through the mill w/a great female T (my current one), my first T (a female who I first saw 14 years ago and now I see for EMDR, who I like o.k., but feel NO attachment and actually don't feel much at all for her)and a horrendous CBT experience w/a male T that I experienced transference despite my best intentions to not fall into that trap. I was blindsided and didn't know it was coming. It actually occurred after he terminated me, which brought up all the abandonment issues with my father. He was not the slightest bit interested in helping me through it; he just didn't want to have anything else to do w/me. I haven't figured out why, really, except for the reason he gave: he couldn't help me and I should go somewhere else; or if I stirred up something in him. In either case, it was horrible.
Enough of me. I would say trust your judgment of who you feel most comfortable with. I love my current T and although I didn't think I experienced transference w/her, I guess I did. She became my perfect mother and at times she has protected me as I wish my own mother had. If anything, she has modeled the appropriate behavior for me.
You may have to go through that transference in one way or another to work through your issues. But that's also the kind of therapy (psychodynamic) that has worked best for me. I've always said heaven help me if I ever have a transference experience with a man and he reciprocates my feelings. But I don't think that's possible.
So I vote for your Pdoc if he's willing to take you on. He may be limited in what he's willing to do (but probably not), but if you get it all out upfront you should be o.k. To me, it sounds like your T might be set on a course of action that you may not want to follow. From myexperience, what she says is a reasonable form of therapy, but maybe it doesn't have to be quite so planned. They need to be spontaneous enough to let you lead them where you need to be.
best,
antigua
Posted by vwoolf on July 18, 2004, at 5:53:55
In reply to Re: Transference - another try » vwoolf, posted by antigua on July 17, 2004, at 13:58:31
Thanks again for your very useful comments. It is so helpful to have a place like this to share experiences and doubts.
I am feeling more confused by this transference issue than ever though. Reading through your posts and thinking through the night, it has struck me that I have a transference not only towards my Pdoc, but also towards my therapist, albeit a negative transference. Just about everything I say about her is actually only true about me. In other words wherever I look I am seeing only myself. I feel quite terrified at the thought, as if I am going mad. Is there no reality?
Posted by shortelise on July 19, 2004, at 18:57:06
In reply to Inside a surrealist painting, posted by vwoolf on July 18, 2004, at 5:53:55
Virginia,
Is there no reality, you ask.
The same question has occured to me. The only answer I can find is that reality is an evolving thing; it changes as I change. At the same time, though, I change as my perception of reality changes.
For example, in therapy I learned that many of the things I thought were insurmountable, untalk-aboutable things were in fact not so big as I imagined. I could talk about them and not die, or fall into madness. My reality was altered.
Now that I understand better what you were talking about in your first post, I would still make an appointment with the psychiatrist and talk with him.
You have the right to decide that you'd feel safer with him than you do with your therapist. It's all about you having a place that seems safe enough where you can explore yourself.
Again, but what do I know?
Shorte
Posted by Vwoolf on July 20, 2004, at 9:41:15
In reply to reality, posted by shortelise on July 19, 2004, at 18:57:06
Thanks Shortelise, for your kind message. I have been feeling better for the last few days, and have come to some kind of acceptance of the situation. As you say, one’s perceptions change, and what a few days ago seemed insurmountable now seems to have been a non-problem. Although I knew intellectually that my feelings for my psychiatrist were “just” projections, emotionally I felt them as if they were completely real. I had to allow myself to go through the full range of feelings of anger, betrayal, pain, fury, before I could start to let go. My therapist says I haven’t got to the end of it yet, and that these feelings will come back, but for the moment I am feeling as if I am in a more gentle and protected place.
I still feel that my psychiatrist is a very special person (if I am actually able to see anything in reality and this is not just another projection) and that I would love to go into analysis with him one day – he is a Jungian analyst and has an extraordinary sensitivity and humanity. However I have huge complexes deriving from my difficult childhood that I need to sort out first, and I think my therapist will probably be good enough for this. So I’m keeping my options open. Have you ever tried analysis?
Warm regards
VWoolf
Posted by terrics on July 21, 2004, at 6:36:58
In reply to Transference - choices, posted by vwoolf on July 16, 2004, at 14:05:04
I have never gotten a solid definition of transference, not online nor in books. It has happened to me 4 out of 6 times, I think. I find therapy works better without it, if it is what I think it is, providing there is good rappore between patient and therapist. terrics
Posted by Susan47 on July 21, 2004, at 10:38:28
In reply to Re: Transference - choices JenStar, posted by Dinah on July 16, 2004, at 17:23:53
> It may be just me, but I don't think I'd start a therapeutic relationship with someone I was attracted to. It would seem to be playing with fire, both to my emotions and to my relationship.
>
> My husband and mother both thought my therapist was attractive, but he was never attractive to *me*. Not my physical type at all. If I *had* found him attractive, I don't think I could have worked with him on the level I've worked with him.
>
> I think therapy has worked as well as it has for me because I've been willing to show my therapist the ugliest and most repulsive and embarassing sides of myself. I can't think I'd be willing to do that with someone I felt phyical attraction towards.
>
> Plus, I've seen how much pain it's caused people here on the board. :(
You're right Dinah, at least it's caused me a lot of pain. I transferred to my P and he became the most gorgeous, wonderful person alive ... but because he was also my paid employee and it was his job to be kind, accepting, etc., I felt such turmoil it was unbelievable. Here's the weird thing .. I called his answering machine sometimes 30 times a day and tried to talk to IT so I wouldn't have to talk to HIM! Is that not nuts?
I finally feel strong enough to break off my relationship with him .. relationship seems like a weird term to use when I'm actually his client (he calls us his "patients" and I hate that). Is there a relationship if you're paying him?
It was too hard on me emotionally in any case. I wanted back what I was putting into the "relationship". Which was love and lust and longing and desire. It was too difficult.
Posted by vwoolf on July 21, 2004, at 10:45:25
In reply to Re: Transference - choices JenStar, posted by Susan47 on July 21, 2004, at 10:38:28
Your message hits hard. How are you coping with the separation?
Posted by Susan47 on July 21, 2004, at 10:54:52
In reply to Inside a surrealist painting, posted by vwoolf on July 18, 2004, at 5:53:55
> Thanks again for your very useful comments. It is so helpful to have a place like this to share experiences and doubts.
>
> I am feeling more confused by this transference issue than ever though. Reading through your posts and thinking through the night, it has struck me that I have a transference not only towards my Pdoc, but also towards my therapist, albeit a negative transference. Just about everything I say about her is actually only true about me. In other words wherever I look I am seeing only myself. I feel quite terrified at the thought, as if I am going mad. Is there no reality?
>Yes, Virginia, (just kiddin) there is a reality. What you are seeing is you and I think that's a good thing. Sounds like you're struggling with much the same stuff I am ... seems to me my T is always reflecting myself back, and I think that's probably what it's about. In the beginning thouh he reflected himself back and I thought that was harder, because THEN I'd get confused: what was me and what was him? Because his opinion really mattered to me, and I wanted to be perfect (haha). So I kept adjusting myself so I'd get that nice look of approval on his face. Well, that just had to stop.. as I've said somewhere else here, I ended up looking at the walls when I talked to him.
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