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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 23 of 23. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 21:29:57
OK, for those of you sweet souls that have been following my saga, I've drafted the following email to send to my T cancelling this week's session, but before I send it, I want to make sure it's not a bad idea. I just feel sick about having to see her after how badly she hurt me today. I honestly don't know if I can ever face her again. I don't know if it's just pride or what. And am I just being manipulative? I wonder. But I haven't sent this email and I'll wait till at least tomorrow morning before I send it. What do you guys think?
I just can't decide whether I want to preserve this relationship or run far, far away. It's caused me so much pain recently.
[Ellen],
I think I may need to take the rest of this week off, actually. I'm feeling way too hurt, confused, and unsafe. I'm sorry you felt that I was giving you responsibility for my feelings -- I wasn't intending to, and I didn't understand why you were so angry with me. I deeply regret having brought up the cutting, since I'm never able to talk about it in a productive way and it never gets us anywhere good. I felt like we were making really important progress last week and I was feeling really hopeful. Now I feel like we're in a hopeless mire.
I hope you understand. This is just about self-preservation. Hopefully I'll get my sh*t together enough to see you next Tuesday.
[crushedout]
Posted by ghost on May 4, 2004, at 21:52:10
In reply to Should I send this email to my T?, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 21:29:57
Crushed,
I think it's really positive that you're thinking of just taking a day off from your T rather than firing her completely. I think you're being really open about the situation by not severing ties with her altogether.
If i were in your situation i would also ponder whether or not i was being manipulative. but knowing what little i know, i think you are very justified in your feelings at this point. i think that taking a day off might be good if you think you need some cool-down time and definitely want to approach the issues at hand later. but if you can't see yourself feeling comfortable with her ever again, then perhaps you need more than a week off. incidentally, i don't think that a t. with whom you cannot be completely honest and open is a well-matched combination. you shouldn't have to censor what you say, particularly when what you say is so valid and pertinent to your situation. it is imperative that you get help for your problems, and feeling badly about bringing them up (or not bringing them up at all) is a totally non-productive situation, in my opinion.
as far as the letter itself goes, kudos to you for telling her that you feel unsafe. a t. should be creating the ultimate safe-space for a person, and your t.'s failure to do so (or inability, perhaps-- it might not be her fault) is an important factor in this equation. good for you for coming out and saying it. i'm sorry that you regret bringing *anything* up to your t., and i would think she should know this, as well. when a client constantly has to think about what is and isn't acceptable to discuss in an environment that should be the epitome of open and honest, the whole relationship should be reevaluated... in my opinion.
that was really long-winded. i hope you don't mind. :/ i don't even know if i answered your questions. good luck. keep us posted...
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on May 4, 2004, at 22:06:55
In reply to Should I send this email to my T?, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 21:29:57
((Crushed))
You know my stance on this. Send the email and NEVER GO BACK.
Your unconscious has been speaking to you for a long time about this. Trust yourself. This relationship is not good. You started SIing when in her care. She is not taking care of you or helping you take care of yourself.
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 22:10:31
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » crushedout, posted by ghost on May 4, 2004, at 21:52:10
ghost,of course i don't mind. i like longwinded. i appreciate the support and concern.
i guess i'm wondering if the whole "i shouldn't have brought up the cutting" thing isn't manipulative. like, i'm trying to make her feel guilty by making her see that it's actually *her* fault our discussions are never productive, since she's not supposed to be getting mad at me for hurting. i dunno. just a thought. i've been revising the email. i totally can't decide what to do. i fluctuate between not wanting to send it at all and just going on thursday, sending it saying i'll see you tuesday, taking two weeks off, taking a month off, and telling her to [blank] off.
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 22:12:42
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T?, posted by Miss Honeychurch on May 4, 2004, at 22:06:55
Oh, Miss Honey. i feel so bad. you must be so frustrated with me. i'm more tempted right now than ever to take your advice. but i know i shouldn't get your hopes up. i wish i could stop torturing you.
Posted by Rigby on May 4, 2004, at 22:20:50
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » ghost, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 22:10:31
Hi Crushed. In the middle of reading all this stuff--wow--eeks--anyway--I'll write more in a bit.
But yeah, you're right--my first thought was this exactly--that this is manipulative for exactly the reason you state--good catch on your end.
> ghost,
>
> of course i don't mind. i like longwinded. i appreciate the support and concern.
>
> i guess i'm wondering if the whole "i shouldn't have brought up the cutting" thing isn't manipulative. like, i'm trying to make her feel guilty by making her see that it's actually *her* fault our discussions are never productive, since she's not supposed to be getting mad at me for hurting. i dunno. just a thought. i've been revising the email. i totally can't decide what to do. i fluctuate between not wanting to send it at all and just going on thursday, sending it saying i'll see you tuesday, taking two weeks off, taking a month off, and telling her to [blank] off.
>
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 22:24:58
In reply to Should I send this email to my T?, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 21:29:57
I don't know your therapist and your relationship well enough to judge that, Crushed. Only you do. My therapist would be seriously peeved. (He likes that word.) But that's just my therapist. I have no idea how yours would react.
The main thing is that you do what *you* need to do, though.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on May 4, 2004, at 22:54:14
In reply to Should I send this email to my T?, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 21:29:57
Right off when I saw the title I thought oh oh shes gonna send more email and this lady said she needs a break..(really you BOTH need this break 1 day night no cutting no email , calls etc)....I am afraid you are maybe not knowing it but manipulating or playing her somehow. I think really what I suggested in the last thread was more productove towards a good working relationship with you two. I VOTE..DO NOT SEND IT OR CALL HER OR CHANGE OR MOVE APPOINTMENTS...NO CUTS. I care and am very pro T as you know and all but you keep changing the agreements and her wishes towards the treatment plan. Please re-think this
Posted by ghost on May 4, 2004, at 23:09:14
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » ghost, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 22:10:31
honestly, i wonder if it's not manipulative too. but the fact of the matter is that your relationship with her is very strained and you're hurting yourself-- in her care. if you are no longer in her care, perhaps that will resolve the desire to hurt yourself. maybe the problem will resurface, but then you can address it at that time, knowing what happened in the past.
i wish you didn't have the urge to hurt yourself. you deserve to be treated far better-- by everyone, including yourself. whatever your decision, it has to be one that will minimize (and hopefully eliminate) your SI.
i suggest you make your decision tomorrow night. take the night to think about it, take tomorrow to think about it. try to decide if a session on thursday will be beneficial in any way, after having some time to cool off.
*big hugs*
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 23:13:26
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » crushedout, posted by Dinah on May 4, 2004, at 22:24:58
Wait, why would he be peeved? I'm sure mine would be, too. I probably won't send it. But I don't know *what* I'm going to do.
Posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 23:19:41
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » crushedout, posted by ghost on May 4, 2004, at 23:09:14
I'm still not sure what to do, but I know I won't send the email. If I decide to cancel the appointment, I'll call her tomorrow, giving her 24 hours notice but no guilt trip.Thank G*d I didn't just hit "send." Sometimes it can be too easy to do that. Thanks for talking sense into me.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on May 4, 2004, at 23:34:43
In reply to ok, i won't send it. thanks everyone., posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 23:19:41
((( CRUSHED ))) WHAT You can do is keep safe...keep busy....read a DBT book and try to work WITH your T NOT breaking and moving appts...and you will get the help and peace you seek
hugs
> I'm still not sure what to do, but I know I won't send the email. If I decide to cancel the appointment, I'll call her tomorrow, giving her 24 hours notice but no guilt trip.
>
> Thank G*d I didn't just hit "send." Sometimes it can be too easy to do that. Thanks for talking sense into me.
Posted by fallsfall on May 5, 2004, at 7:36:45
In reply to ok, i won't send it. thanks everyone., posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 23:19:41
(((((Crushed)))))
I wish this wasn't so painful for you. You are working so hard to make the right decisions.
Falls.
Posted by crushedout on May 5, 2004, at 10:46:41
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » crushedout, posted by Fallen4MyT on May 4, 2004, at 22:54:14
You're right, Fallen, and I'm going to follow your advice: no calls, no emails, no cutting, and I'll see her on Thursday (no matter how bad it feels) at our scheduled time. And I'm going to be totally honest with her on Thursday, and
try to make this thing work.
> Right off when I saw the title I thought oh oh shes gonna send more email and this lady said she needs a break..(really you BOTH need this break 1 day night no cutting no email , calls etc)....I am afraid you are maybe not knowing it but manipulating or playing her somehow. I think really what I suggested in the last thread was more productove towards a good working relationship with you two. I VOTE..DO NOT SEND IT OR CALL HER OR CHANGE OR MOVE APPOINTMENTS...NO CUTS. I care and am very pro T as you know and all but you keep changing the agreements and her wishes towards the treatment plan. Please re-think this
Posted by Dinah on May 5, 2004, at 13:27:24
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » Fallen4MyT, posted by crushedout on May 5, 2004, at 10:46:41
Sounds good, Crushed. A very mature way of handling it. If I were your therapist, I'd be impressed. Heck, I am impressed.
Re. the other thread. I think she was just saying she was trying to re-establish rapport.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on May 5, 2004, at 13:42:20
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » Fallen4MyT, posted by crushedout on May 5, 2004, at 10:46:41
AWESOME AND PLEASE DO :) See thats what I would do with my T in that spot cause I am thinking it would show I am really trying..I am here for you..you have what about 24 hours..you can do it...it may be hard but I have faith in you
hugs
> You're right, Fallen, and I'm going to follow your advice: no calls, no emails, no cutting, and I'll see her on Thursday (no matter how bad it feels) at our scheduled time. And I'm going to be totally honest with her on Thursday, and
> try to make this thing work.
>
>
> > Right off when I saw the title I thought oh oh shes gonna send more email and this lady said she needs a break..(really you BOTH need this break 1 day night no cutting no email , calls etc)....I am afraid you are maybe not knowing it but manipulating or playing her somehow. I think really what I suggested in the last thread was more productove towards a good working relationship with you two. I VOTE..DO NOT SEND IT OR CALL HER OR CHANGE OR MOVE APPOINTMENTS...NO CUTS. I care and am very pro T as you know and all but you keep changing the agreements and her wishes towards the treatment plan. Please re-think this
>
>
Posted by fallsfall on May 5, 2004, at 13:45:15
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » Fallen4MyT, posted by crushedout on May 5, 2004, at 10:46:41
Honesty is wonderful.
Best luck.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 5, 2004, at 22:46:07
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on May 5, 2004, at 13:45:15
crushed,
My goodness, this must be so difficult for you. You are still hanging in there and trying to learn from it, and for that I admire you.I just wanted to tell you about a reaction I had to reading one of your posts. In responding to Miss Honey, who, I think has been encouraging you to terminate with Ellen (I could be wrong on this, if so please forgive a tired brain.) Anyway, you said:
"Oh, Miss Honey. i feel so bad. you must be so frustrated with me. i'm more tempted right now than ever to take your advice. but i know i shouldn't get your hopes up. i wish i could stop torturing you."
Is this exchange, in any way, like your relationship with Ellen? I mean, it sounds like it is all about wanting to know that the person cares enough to be affected by what you do or don't do. Does that make sense? Does this seem like you? If not, please feel free to tell me to put a sock in it. It was just one of those bells going off as I was reading things.
I do hope that you are able to continue to grow, heal, and love yourself thru your therapeutic relationship. But if it's not so therapeutic, I also hope that you are able to leave when you need to.
Take care, and again, feel free to tell me I'm off base if I am.
gg
Posted by crushedout on May 5, 2004, at 23:05:58
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T?, posted by gardenergirl on May 5, 2004, at 22:46:07
Hi gg,
Yes, this is so hard. I can't believe how hard it's been and how tired I'm getting of the drama. I really want a good resolution and I'm trying so hard to figure out what that is, without running away prematurely or sticking around and suffering unnecessarily. It's a tough balance to strike.
I don't think the exchange with Miss Honey was like any exchanges with my T, but I most certainly do not want you to put a sock in it. I actually think it's kind of the opposite of how things are with my T: she tells me she's frustrated and I'm sort of insensitive to that. But I'm planning to try to be more sensitive.
I'm actually realizing, I think, that the reason Miss Honey and so many others want me to leave Ellen is that I've been unconsciously feeding them reasons to believe that, because it's a lot easier for me to think that she's messed up and I should leave (I keep wanting people to convince me of that, because it would solve my problem, at least till the next Ellen came along) than to believe that I'm the one who's "messed up." This is my current thinking. Unfortunately, it sounds an awful lot like something Ellen told me a few months ago, which infuriated me. I hate admitting that she might have been right.
I appreciate your thoughts always, gg.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 5, 2004, at 23:27:09
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » gardenergirl, posted by crushedout on May 5, 2004, at 23:05:58
Posted by finelinebob on May 7, 2004, at 5:43:29
In reply to Should I send this email to my T?, posted by crushedout on May 4, 2004, at 21:29:57
Prolly too late for this ... how about printing out the message and bringing it with you to your next session?
It's circles within circles...
I'm just jumping in and don't know any of the history, but Ms. Honey's got a point, and its the outermost circle. If the mojo between you and your T just isn't working, there will come a time when you will need to get out ... and you will probably know that sooner than your T will.Second circle: that you wrote that email and seriously thought about sending it is worthy of discussion with your T. You could be touching on some "undercurrent" that neither of you have been able to make overt and conscious. The relationship you develop with your T is as important as your personal history you bring into your sessions ... or her personal history, for that matter. Anyway, your letter might be touching on something between the two of you, or it might be touching on something inside you that you haven't quite figured out how to voice yet. Either way, that note might be a catalyst to get you beyond where you're at right now.
Third circle: now, I'm not one to buy into the psychodynamic party line, but you can't argue with success (or so I've been told). Case in point: my Teflon personality. I'd tell my T about how I really didn't care what others thought of me, good or bad. It just didn't stick. This was about 3 years into our work together. She probably set me up on this one, but she asked me about if I felt the same way about her. Yeah, of course I did. And she was deeply offended by that -- how could we have built up so much trust for her to just slide off me? (She's good, my T is!) Truth of the matter was her opinion meant more to me than just about anyone, but admitting so made me incredibly angry with myself. Getting past my anger, realizing I wasn't made of Teflon, and recognizing that what she had to say about me was both desirable and valuable was the work of another year or so.
After that, I began to realize I was doing the same thing to others ... holding people at arms length and considering it a virtue.
I don't know if your T is so good as to handle projection like that, but you can't argue with success ... or human nature. We throw our emotions at our Ts, we put them into roles ... and either they are trained to recognize this and respond accordingly or they behave like human beings and respond accordingly.
The point in this circle is that the distress here is worth exploring. It's happening for a reason, and that reason may be deeper than you think. You may not be able to reach that deep and bring it to the surface ... yet ... but don't label it at its "face value" and leave it unexamined.
You know better than anyone ... there may be other circles, or any of these may just be me blowing sunshine.
flb
Posted by crushedout on May 7, 2004, at 10:27:24
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » crushedout, posted by finelinebob on May 7, 2004, at 5:43:29
finelinebob,
where did you emerge from? i've never seen you before. i like the way you express stuff. but i certainly have not been treating this as a surface issue. i just can't figure out yet what it all means, where it's coming from. and my t and i have been engaged in a sort of battle (which has been me probably trying to run away from the real work, and from the pain that causes), which has prevented us from getting down to business, i think. but we're trying to get back on track now. *i* am, finally.
i'm not sure if my t is as good as your t at identifying projection, etc. she does a lot of reacting, as a "normal" human would, although i think she shows a little more self-restraint in that she hasn't completely told me to buzz off yet.
nice to meetcha. keep talkin. i like what you have to say.
crushedout
Posted by finelinebob on May 7, 2004, at 11:02:33
In reply to Re: Should I send this email to my T? » finelinebob, posted by crushedout on May 7, 2004, at 10:27:24
Nice to meet ya too, crushedout ... I'm actually an old timer who's taken a long babblebreak and just came back yesterday.
And don't think that surface issues are any less important than the "deeper" issues! If you've got some fighting to do to get through to the deeper stuff, that's pretty damn hard work, too, but worthwhile. It's like peeling back an onion -- any deep-seated issue is going to have layers and layers, so it's there at the surface as much as anywhere else. Sounds like you may be winning one battle right now with what you posted on the thread below, so don't be surprised when you have to fight it again ... be happy that you've made it to the next level and remember you've beat it before! =^)
flb
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