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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by crushedout on April 14, 2004, at 12:05:42
It's too much to write about all of it here. I saw Ellen again yesterday and we ended up basically doing a double session (she told me she had no one after me and asked if it was ok if we run over, and we ended up running over almost 45 minutes -- so much for clear and consistent boundaries, I guess). We sorted out a lot of stuff, but in general, she seemed pretty desperate to me. I suddenly felt like I was in a power struggle and I had the upper hand again after being on the losing end for a long time and suffering a lot for it.She told me that she was sure that if we continued the way we had been, I would "write her off" within two months (I later told her I thought that was very optimistic, I was worried I would do it the next day). She said she was scared of this, to be honest with me, both because it would feel bad to her professionally (she would feel like a failure) and because she would feel sad for me that I had continued what she sees as a destructive pattern in my life. (I'm actually not so certain that this is as much of a pattern as she seems to think, but that's another story.)
Anyway, we talked about a lot of stuff, including what's gone wrong in our relationship and the pros and cons of me changing Ts (she's supportive of me changing if that's what I decide, it seems, although I think she wants me to stay).
I felt really good -- which is an enormous change for me -- after the session and still do. I guess I'm afraid that it's not healthy, though, that it's only because I feel like I'm winning the power struggle, because she seemed so desperate, because she not only let me but practically insisted that I stay 45 minutes longer than I was supposed to. However, we also talked about and sorted out a lot of really important stuff and it gave me hope that we could salvage our relationship.
Now I'm very confused about what to do about the appointment I have on Monday morning with the new T (not Dr. X but another one). I didn't tell Ellen about the appointment -- and it's at 9:30 Monday morning and then I have an appointment with Ellen at 2 the same day. I feel like I'm cheating on her, and I'm afraid it could drive a wedge between us, when our relationship is already so fragile. Partially, the wedge would come from my not telling her about it and partially I'm afraid this new T will convince me that Ellen's really done some screwed up things, because I know a lot of stuff she's said and done looks fishy, even though I see it differently, maybe because I'm deluding myself or maybe because I have a fuller picture of who she is.
On the other hand, I need the perspective from an objective third party, and I'm still very vulnerable. And I'm not required to tell Ellen everything. And if I do decide to stay with her, she should understand that I sought a consultation with someone. I have to do what I have to do to take care of myself. But I'm very torn at this point. I'm wondering if it might be better at least to postpone the appointment to later in the week, on a day when I'm not already seeing Ellen, and to tell Ellen about it beforehand, just so I don't feel like I'm sneaking around.
I'm interested in anyone's thoughts on any of this, if you feel like sharing them.
Posted by Speaker on April 14, 2004, at 12:39:04
In reply to The next segment of my drama, posted by crushedout on April 14, 2004, at 12:05:42
Just a thought! What if you go to the new T and share the difficulty you are having with Ellen. I would not share Ellen's name with the new T !!!! See what an objective opinion is and then go to the appt. with Ellen and share what you have leaarned and sort that out. I know the first visit may not get much info but you never know. Good luck and take care of you!
Posted by EmmyS on April 14, 2004, at 12:55:38
In reply to Re: The next segment of my drama, posted by Speaker on April 14, 2004, at 12:39:04
I think if you talk for 50 mins about Ellen and try to call her Kathy, you will slip up - it's natural. So, just make it clear in the first 2 mins of the meeting that this new T does NOT have your permission to contact Ellen. You will NOT sign any form allowing contact at this point. If you decide to switch T's you might consider that - but NOT YET. If you make it clear up front, you should be fine.
As far as 2 appts in one day, me myself and I couldn't handle that. Too much emotion for me. But you need to decide that one for you.
Personally, I would tell Ellen (voicemail would be really handy!) about the consultation, just so you don't feel like you are going behind her back. You'd relax a bit. It will come out anyhow, so if telling her up front helps you relax...go for it. You could just say that the first consultation did not go well, so you are going to try again to get some help from a non-biased third party.
Personally, I write stuff down and simply read the darn thing into my T's answering machine!
Good luck, Emmy
Posted by antigua on April 14, 2004, at 13:07:34
In reply to Re: The next segment of my drama, posted by EmmyS on April 14, 2004, at 12:55:38
Gee Emmy,
I thought I was the only one who wrote it down and read it...If I try to wing it, I get all tongue tied and leave a really long, rambling message:)
antigua
Posted by crushedout on April 14, 2004, at 13:28:22
In reply to Re: The next segment of my drama, posted by EmmyS on April 14, 2004, at 12:55:38
thanks, emmy and speaker. I'm really not worried about the new T talking to Ellen. I could tell by our phone conversation that it's not going to be a problem, and also, because I'm actually going to have a session with her, she'll be bound by confidentiality. Dr. X wasn't because it was just a phone call.But I think you're right, Emmy, that maybe scheduling two sessions for one day will be too overwhelming. I think I'm going to call the new T to reschedule, maybe for Tuesday, and then I'll also have the chance to tell Ellen in person on Monday about the consultation.
Posted by crushedout on April 14, 2004, at 14:07:19
In reply to Re: The next segment of my drama, posted by EmmyS on April 14, 2004, at 12:55:38
I called the new T and left her a message asking if we could reschedule for Tuesday, Wednesday, or Friday (days when I don't see Ellen). That way I can also tell Ellen about the appointment before it happens.
I'm actually pretty scared to tell Ellen, though. I hope I don't chicken out. I feel like it will ruin our newfound bond, which still feels very fragile. I'm afraid she will (without necessarily meaning to) punish me during our next session if I tell her. And I don't want that to happen. This feels icky.
Posted by fallsfall on April 14, 2004, at 14:21:40
In reply to called the new T, posted by crushedout on April 14, 2004, at 14:07:19
Sometimes it can be hard to tell if a therapist is punishing you, or if you are feeling punished. If Ellen unconsciously punishes you then she is not doing her job. If you feel punished when she isn't doing anything, then she should be able to help you not feel so punished. In either event, you need to tell her if you feel like you are being punished. That would be an important conversation.
Best luck
Posted by crushedout on April 14, 2004, at 15:08:56
In reply to Re: called the new T » crushedout, posted by fallsfall on April 14, 2004, at 14:21:40
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 15, 2004, at 8:42:21
In reply to The next segment of my drama, posted by crushedout on April 14, 2004, at 12:05:42
>
> Crushed,You write that some things she has done seem fishy. If it looks like a fish, talks like a fish, and smells like a fish, it's a fish. Trust your instincts.
Posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 10:32:32
In reply to Re: The next segment of my drama, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 15, 2004, at 8:42:21
The thing is that they only seem fishy to someone looking in from the outside. My instincts are that she's not fishy. My instincts are that she's good.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 15, 2004, at 10:57:11
In reply to Re: The next segment of my drama » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 10:32:32
Yes, but I also got the impression from the past few months that your instincts are telling you to leave her.Is that right?
Posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 11:44:08
In reply to Re: The next segment of my drama » crushedout, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 15, 2004, at 10:57:11
Sometimes, yes, that has been true. But it varies a lot. I'm very torn at the moment. Actually, right now I'm leaning heavily towards trying to work it through with her, because it feels like we might be at a turning point. But a couple days ago I was leaning heavily in the opposite direction.
Posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 11:57:54
In reply to Re: The next segment of my drama, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 15, 2004, at 8:42:21
Unfortunately, I think this may be one of those circumstances where trusting my instincts is not such a good idea, since my instincts tell me that sleeping with her would be really wonderful for me.> > Crushed,
>
> You write that some things she has done seem fishy. If it looks like a fish, talks like a fish, and smells like a fish, it's a fish. Trust your instincts.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 15, 2004, at 12:11:48
In reply to instincts » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 11:57:54
Wow, that's very astute crushed. You have a second set of instincts which is telling you your first set of instincts (about sleeping with her) are probably not in your best interest.
Conflict is so frustrating. I am impressed that you on some level know that sleeping with her wouldn't be in your best interests. Just following your story, I'm not so sure if you would have said that, say, 6 months ago.
And I really do hope you go to see the second therapist. Sometimes having an objective opinion is so refreshing. And I don't think it is any of Ellen's business. You shouldn't feel guilty about not telling her. You should never feel guilty about exploring what is best FOR YOU.
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 15, 2004, at 12:16:04
In reply to instincts » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 11:57:54
We have to remember that we as patients are play fairly insignificant roles in our therapists lives. They mean the world to us because they are our only therapist. However, we are among dozens and dozens of their clients. So I think it is easy to build up in our minds that we have an amazing relationship with our T which may be the case, but more than likely not. I guess thru all of this rambling I'm just trying to say that what may be a huge deal to you (as in telling Ellen you are seeing another therapist) may just be a blip on her screen during the day.
Does this make sense?
Posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 12:28:02
In reply to Re: instincts, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 15, 2004, at 12:16:04
Yes, it makes sense, but I disagree. I think I'm more important to her than that. And I want to think so, so it would hurt if I thought you were right. But I really think the prospect of me leaving is more than a blip on her screen. She's told me as much, and I believe her.Also, I'm sure it will be a fairly big deal to her, because it seemed to be a pretty big deal to her that I simply *called* Dr. X. She was angry, hurt, and alarmed, she told me. I think she might not have been able to sleep because of it because she emailed me at 4 a.m. the night after she found out, but that might be wishful thinking on my part.
None of this is to say that she shouldn't be able to deal with whatever feelings me going to see another T for a consultation will evoke in her. But I guess I'm a little scared she won't deal with it as well and she should be able to, since I'm not sure she always handles these things in the *most* professional way.
> We have to remember that we as patients are play fairly insignificant roles in our therapists lives. They mean the world to us because they are our only therapist. However, we are among dozens and dozens of their clients. So I think it is easy to build up in our minds that we have an amazing relationship with our T which may be the case, but more than likely not. I guess thru all of this rambling I'm just trying to say that what may be a huge deal to you (as in telling Ellen you are seeing another therapist) may just be a blip on her screen during the day.
>
> Does this make sense?
Posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 12:32:34
In reply to Re: instincts » crushedout, posted by Miss Honeychurch on April 15, 2004, at 12:11:48
I'm not sure if I'd call the second set of stuff "instincts" -- it's more my rational mind, from stuff that I've read and been told by people I trust. It goes against all of my instincts.
And I have been aware of this "fact" (that sleeping with your T is destructive) from the beginning, actually, but I've always felt in my bones (as I still do) that it's not true. I'm guessing that my bones are not so reliable here. :)
I guess you're right that it's not Ellen's business and I shouldn't feel guilty. I won't tell her out of guilt. I am worried more I think that it might put distance between us, when we're trying to get closer to each other after a difficult period. That's distinct from feeling guilty and would be a reason for my own good to tell her.
> Wow, that's very astute crushed. You have a second set of instincts which is telling you your first set of instincts (about sleeping with her) are probably not in your best interest.
>
> Conflict is so frustrating. I am impressed that you on some level know that sleeping with her wouldn't be in your best interests. Just following your story, I'm not so sure if you would have said that, say, 6 months ago.
>
> And I really do hope you go to see the second therapist. Sometimes having an objective opinion is so refreshing. And I don't think it is any of Ellen's business. You shouldn't feel guilty about not telling her. You should never feel guilty about exploring what is best FOR YOU.
Posted by Dinah on April 16, 2004, at 4:03:29
In reply to Re: instincts » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 12:28:02
>
> But I guess I'm a little scared she won't deal with it as well and she should be able to, since I'm not sure she always handles these things in the *most* professional way.Hmmm.... This would be something you perhaps should bring up.
Posted by terrics on April 17, 2004, at 10:39:42
In reply to Re: instincts » Miss Honeychurch, posted by crushedout on April 15, 2004, at 12:32:34
Crushed, As you know I go through the same thing with my T. I think if I got more involved with her I would be on the road to devastation. I think on of us would get hurt.
I hope you think things over and over. Love or what we think is love can do great damage if it is not totally mutual. I don't want to see you get hurt. terrics
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