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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by MrSandman on April 14, 2004, at 19:42:54
Poll: What is the single most absurd observation or advice you have heard from your psychotherapist?
I'll get the ball rolling. At one of the world's most prestigious (and pretentious) private psychiatric hospitals I was told, " your chronic severe depression is rooted in your failure to mourn the death of your brother."
That brother was stillborn when I was 18 months old.
Like a Zen koan, that pearl of unwisdom was so preposterous as to be enlightening. In a flash I lost faith in my mental health care "providers" and gained confidence in my own common sense. I had heard the sound of one hand clapping.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on April 14, 2004, at 20:13:25
In reply to Laughing Academy Faculty Bloopers Anyone?, posted by MrSandman on April 14, 2004, at 19:42:54
Hahahaha that's funny Sandman...Mine would be once..well, more than once...my T has told me to STOP THINKING LIKE THAT..so I looked at him and said..That is easier said than done...He then said...WELL STOP IT ANYWAYS :P..<he did smile>...If I could STOP IT I would not be seeing ANY kinda T :)
Posted by Kind Girl on April 15, 2004, at 0:55:40
In reply to Laughing Academy Faculty Bloopers Anyone?, posted by MrSandman on April 14, 2004, at 19:42:54
After dragging my husband, literally, to a marriage counselor I had picked from our list of providers, we went to our first session.
I was all prepared for this guy to lay into my husband about meeting my needs because I had just suffered a huge loss, was in therapy for the first time, very vulnerable, fragile....and I am not kidding....5 minutes into the session this freak therapist comes right near my face and points his finger at me and says, "Why are you worried about HIM? You need to get some meds and get your mania under control before you start on him!!!"
It was all I could do to not run out the door and it was the longest hour of my life. When we walked out into the lobby I couldn't hold it in any longer. My husband was grinning with glee and I said, "I am never going to see that A-hole again!" and the lobby was full. I didn't care.
Oh yeah, he had long bangs he curled under and wore alligator cowboy boots...a real looker!!!
Posted by Racer on April 15, 2004, at 16:10:41
In reply to Re: Laughing Academy Faculty Bloopers Anyone?, posted by Kind Girl on April 15, 2004, at 0:55:40
I'm in a year long blooper right now, myself. The latest, which has kept me on the sofa with a quilt wrapped around my head all day so far and IS very traumatic, was a DBT group they decided would be helpful to me. My gut told me to drop out, because it was so traumatic to me, but I didn't for a lot of rational reasons -- like showing signs of good faith, showing them that I was motivated to get well, finishing what I started regardless of anything about it, etc. Today's exercise was to examine an emotional situation. That would be fine -- IF I DIDN'T SUPRESS MY EMOTIONS SO EFFECTIVELY I CAN'T EVEN RECOGNIZE THEM. Not only that, but I experience my inability to recognize my emotions as a shameful failure.
If they had made any effort at all to understand anything about me, they might have caught on that this wasn't a group to ask me to attend. They might have thought about trying to support me to the point I could recognize and name my emotions, and to where I wasn't terrified and traumatized by them so much, and then suggested something like this. The DBT group uses techniques that mirror my own maladaptive techniques for suppressing any emotions, so it really isn't helping me any. Now I'm kicking myself for running out of the group early today, for failing miserably -- again -- to Do The Right Thing for my recovery, for thinking that it's anyone's fault but my own, and for my general failure in life.
Mind you, the therapist who decided this would be a good group for me leads the group, decided it would be helpful for me and she wanted me in it *before* she even *met* me, and I think it's a case of One Size Fits All therapy: "DBT groups are good for everyone, regardless of their own problems." A corollary to that, of course, is that "everyone can benefit from DBT; DBT was developed for Borderline Personality Personality Disorder; therefore, everyone in a DBT group -- by definition -- must suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder." This is the same therapist who put more energy into trying to convince me that I was borderline than she did into trying to find out who I am.
Sorry, I guess mine is more like Vic Morrow being killed on set, rather than an entry for the Blooper Reel.
How about my therapist telling me the other day that anti-depressants don't cause weight gain -- it's just that when you're on them, you eat more and don't exercise enough? Does that count?
Posted by fallsfall on April 15, 2004, at 19:39:07
In reply to I can't find it funny, but..., posted by Racer on April 15, 2004, at 16:10:41
Racer,
I'm sorry you had such a rough DBT session. I did 6 months of DBT, and I can see how it could be amazingly frustrating when you don't recognize your feelings. That is actually the reason I went INTO my DBT group, but my guess is that I recognized more feelings than you do. I can also SO understand feeling shameful when you couldn't recognize your feelings. One of my biggest triggers is when I don't know something (anything) that "everyone" knows, or that I'm supposed to know from training I've had. A couple of sessions ago I was telling my therapist that I had gone to the library to research the Unconscious (Somehow I managed to live the first 47 years of my life knowing in theory what it is, but believing that *I* don't have one). He didn't believe me when I said I didn't understand the unconscious - I can't believe how painful these events are for me. So please don't feel like you are the only one.
I have learned to recognize my emotions better (except of course for anger and rage - they still do not exist for me). I think DBT was helpful. There is a list of "emotion" words in the workbook, organized by type (love, hate, sadness etc). I typed them into my computer and printed each type of emotion words on a different color paper. Then I cut them apart with scissors. I call it emotional confetti. One of my favorite activites with it is to dump it on the floor, and then pick through looking for words that apply to me right then. Seeing the words, and then deciding if they were "me" that day helped me to name some emotions. It is also fun to do with a friend - you can compare your selections at the end - or hand over words that you think might describe them.
This stuff is incredibly, incredibly hard to learn. I think most kids learn it around ages 2 - 4. But I sure didn't. I think it is easier to learn when you are 2. But don't give up. You are not shameful - somebody just didn't teach you what you needed to know - that is their shame, not yours. You are not a failure, and you are not doomed to never know this stuff. I hope it helps you to know that you are not alone.
Been there,
Falls.
Posted by Dinah on April 15, 2004, at 22:45:52
In reply to Re: I can't find it funny, but... » Racer, posted by fallsfall on April 15, 2004, at 19:39:07
I did a color wheel with crayons. With ranges of shades and intensities. And then took a list of emotion words and matched them with places on the chart. For a long time, I didn't use the words. I'd say I was feeling bright yellow, or lavender, or brick red, then look backwards for the word.
My therapist thought it so creative of me, but it was really extraordinarily detailed and rational and left brained. He was so impressed that I made one for him, even gave him the better one. It became part of my file of course, and when the clinic closed, he couldn't take it with him. It's in some storage room somewhere, waiting out the years to shredding, I'm guessing. :( And the one I kept for myself wasn't nearly as good.
Moral to the story. Keep the good stuff for yourself.
Posted by noa on April 16, 2004, at 21:18:26
In reply to Laughing Academy Faculty Bloopers Anyone?, posted by MrSandman on April 14, 2004, at 19:42:54
My very first encounter with therapy was in college many years ago. I went to two sessions with a psychiatrist in the student clinic. Her gem to me was that I wouldn't be so depressed if I would just get out of my room and go to socials and meet some men.
Circular thinking is classic.
Posted by MrSandman on April 17, 2004, at 1:43:56
In reply to I can't find it funny, but..., posted by Racer on April 15, 2004, at 16:10:41
Racer:
You get extra credit..a tragifarcical scenario AND a ridiculous one-liner. Moreover, you totally get my theme.
I kowtowed to the sages time and again before I finally heard the blooper that set me on the path to freedom. Like you I often was strongly advised to take a Great Leap Forward that resulted in higher anxiety , deeper fatigue, and a greater sense of failure...a spiraling into learned helplessness that squelched my own inner voice and made me ever more willing to believe that only experts could know what was right for me.
Looking back, it wasn't just the episodes of failure that made me feel worse- it was also that I , a free adult allowed myself to be browbeaten by people I had hired to help me become stronger and more independent!
I don't know your history, and I know very little about Borderline Personality Disorder or its treatment. I do have a few observations and questions:1.Athough you are allegedly out of touch emotionally , your message displays quite a range and intensity of emotions totally congruent with your thoughts.
2.The most severe acute symptom expressed in your post is anxiety ( "terrified and traumatized"). As a survival mechanism, one of anxiety's purposes is to override all other thoughts and feelings. Anxiety speeds my thoughts and feelings up to a tempo that makes them difficult to isolate and recognize individually. It seems that specific treatment to reduce your anxiety might allow you to recognize and experience your emotions more fully.
3.You also seem filled with a sense of shame and failure. That and your overeagerness to please suggest low self esteem and/or depression. Are you getting any specific treatment? Have you tried cognitive therapy?
3. Yesterday I was reading some wise practical advice you were giving to 1980Monroe.Is it possible for you to extend that compassion and common sense to yourself? What kind of steps, no matter how small, would you recommend for yourself? Why not "go with your gut" for a week or two and see if things begin to look just a little bit brighter?
Posted by MrSandman on April 17, 2004, at 2:30:02
In reply to Re: Laughing Academy Faculty Bloopers Anyone?, posted by noa on April 16, 2004, at 21:18:26
When I first broke down in my sophomore year I presented what I now know to be absolutely classic signs and symptoms of major depression to one of the best known psychiatrists in my city. He zeroed in on two details- my impoverished speech and my social withdrawal, both of which had developed very recently, to deduce,
"You are afraid of girls."
Furthermore,
"The only therapy that will make you feel better is for you to go out and find a girlfriend and tell me about every detail of your search for love."When I began to reflect on some psychological issues -family, academics, childhood- that I believed had contributed to my breakdown- a really big deal, as I'd never opened up about my problems before- he simply would refuse to listen, cajoling and taunting me ,
"Did you talk to any girls this week? Why not? Are you afraid? Are you afraid if a girl liked you, you'd have to kiss her? Are you afraid of sex ? Are you gay?"
Within a few weeks I was making suicide plans.
It's a pity noa and I were not at the same school. We might have met, though I don't know how. Maybe we could have tapped Morse Code through the dorm walls?
You would think that counselors giving such advice to their patients might have the courtesy to do a little matchmaking for those of us without the energy to go out much!
Posted by noa on April 17, 2004, at 10:26:43
In reply to Re: Laughing Academy Faculty Bloopers Anyone? » noa, posted by MrSandman on April 17, 2004, at 2:30:02
LOL to your last sentence, though the rest of your story is nothing to laugh at--I'm sorry about your experience. Yikes.
Reading your experience made me think about mine again. What is interesting is that I went to a women's college, where the student and faculty community was very progressive on women's issues, and, being such a place, although things weren't as open in those days as they are now, it was a place that was, I suppose, relatively friendly to lesbians compared to general society (although still rare even on this women's college campus, there were occasionally lesbian couples seen walking hand in hand, or known couples sharing a room and a bed in the dorm, which I don't think I would have encountered in other settings at that time). I'm not a lesbian, but imagine if I had been and this psychiatrist is telling me that all my problems could be solved by going out and meeting guys. How enlightened! (and she might as well have added "and on your way out, dear, do stop in at the door down the hall and pick up a diaphragm").
But she was, I believe, some strain of psychoanalytically oriented with a little bit of "let it all hang out" on the side, and I guess she thought that sex would cure all, but which was, of course, missing the mark for me.
Posted by Racer on April 17, 2004, at 13:43:12
In reply to Re: I can't find it funny, but..., posted by MrSandman on April 17, 2004, at 1:43:56
1.Athough you are allegedly out of touch emotionally , your message displays quite a range and intensity of emotions totally congruent with your thoughts.
I think some of my emotions are accessible to me, but I don't trust them. You know, the whole, "I must be wrong to feel this way..." It's followed by that sense of failure and shame when it is finally proven to me that those emotions were correct in the first place, because then I get to see once again that I didn't listen to myself when I should have. NOT a cycle I'd recommend to anyone.
2.The most severe acute symptom expressed in your post is anxiety ( "terrified and traumatized"). As a survival mechanism, one of anxiety's purposes is to override all other thoughts and feelings. Anxiety speeds my thoughts and feelings up to a tempo that makes them difficult to isolate and recognize individually. It seems that specific treatment to reduce your anxiety might allow you to recognize and experience your emotions more fully.I suspect you're right. The problem is access to appropriate care. I am stuck with a broken county system, and am not exactly getting the best they can offer. It's frustrating, frightening, and reinforces my feeling that there's no help nor hope for me. You know?
The hell of it is that my professional background is in non-profits, so I can see their side. For one thing, they have to insulate themselves against their patients, in order to survive. They also have to tell themselves that they're doing the best they can do, even while doing much less than their best, in order to look themselves in the mirror each day. They're trying to bail the ocean with teaspoons, and have to balance resource allocation against overwhelming need. Should they aim their resources at the most needy? Or give that little extra to the people like me who might need a little more for a time, but can become fully functional again as a result? My strict Calvinistic upbringing tells me "to each according to need," so people like me should be getting the bandaids over our gunshots, because we can hang on longer with less help. But then I scream and twist and ache for that little extra that might make it possible for me to resume life. And then I feel guilty for it. After all, I *should* be able to hang on a little longer. I mean, there's nothing really wrong with me besides depression, right? All I need to do it stop worrying about it, just get a job, pull myself up by my bootstraps, etc. You know, shame and guilt over my condition, and fear that nothing will help, and then 'care providers' who don't care, and so don't provide adequate treatment resources.
So, in general, I get totally overwhelmed, and shut down. That's what's going on now. I'm withdrawn, not able to function much at all, and feeling guilty, since if I just DID something I should feel better. And, since I'm getting slapped down every time I try to express my emotions to anyone at this agency, I'm not even trying to express them anymore -- just trying to suppress them even more. That's really helpful, ain't it? And I feel resentful because it really does feel as if the reactions I'm getting from them are making me worse, instead of better. And then I feel guilt and shame for that feeling, since they're obviously caring professionals, so it's my failure to respond appropriately.
Stop the carrousel! I want to get off!
3.You also seem filled with a sense of shame and failure. That and your overeagerness to please suggest low self esteem and/or depression. Are you getting any specific treatment? Have you tried cognitive therapy?
Let's see, I'm getting therapy, but that's been a nightmare so far. Too long to get into, but a lack of continuity, continuing invalidation of my emotions and experiences, etc, have led to an increasing distrust and withdrawal on my part. The medication side is even worse, so I stopped all meds several weeks ago, and am too afraid to go back to the doctor. If I had a trusting therapeutic relationship with a good therapist, we might be able to get me through that, but since I just started seeing this new therapist -- Miss "Anti-Depressant medications don't change your weight -- it's just like birth control pills don't make you gain weight, you just eat more and stop exercising when you take them..." -- we don't have anything like trust built up yet, and she's hitting some buttons that are helping me build that wall between us. And then, guess what? I start feeling -- all together now -- guilt and shame about building a wall between myself and the help that I need. And it must be my fault, since she's trying so hard to help me.
3. Yesterday I was reading some wise practical advice you were giving to 1980Monroe.Is it possible for you to extend that compassion and common sense to yourself? What kind of steps, no matter how small, would you recommend for yourself? Why not "go with your gut" for a week or two and see if things begin to look just a little bit brighter?Thank you. I'm glad to know that someone thinks I give good advice. I'm afraid I can't seem to do it for myself, but maybe I'll try. It's very hard for me to get anything at all done right now, and I've gotten back to my deeply depressed "afraid to finish anything, for fear of failure" state -- cleaning the bathroom is too daunting a task, because what if I finish it and it's not right?
Maybe I'll try writing advice to myself this weekend. It might help.
On the other hand, if I could go with my gut, I probably wouldn't have made it to this point. You know what I mean? I don't trust my emotions, since I've always been told that I'm wrong about it all. That constant struggle against what I feel has led me to twist myself up into something more like a protein than a molecule, folded and twisted upon itself. So, I put a hard coating over it, so no one will see, and try to contain it. Then, it gets worse and worse, with no way to release the pressure, until I get to this state. And whenever I've tried to follow my gut, I've been punished for it, so I'm afraid of trying anymore.
Heheheh, that's what I need a good therapist for, and that's why I shut down so much so fast when a therapist starts telling me that I feel the wrong way. You know, "Oh, there's always hope -- where there's life, there's hope -- you just have to stop thinking that way." Sure, great advice, but how about validating that I *do* feel that way before telling me it's wrong for me to feel that way and you're just going to deny it? Ever think that maybe it's that sort of dismissal of my feelings that keeps me from experiencing them directly?
Sorry, that got really long, didn't it? Thank you, Mr Sandman, for your words. I do take great comfort from them, and appreciate your taking the time and concern to express them. I will try to take your advice about trying to offer advice to myself. Unfortunately, part of the problem with being so overwhelmed is that it's really hard to come up with the energy to do anything that hard. And I already feel as if there's no help out there for me, and that I could get past all this if I had adequate help. You know? Give me the help I need to get myself out of this, and then I won't need your help. But instead, they keep telling me to help myself, even as I keep saying that I need someone's help to help myself.
Bah! Tell me again why it's ridiculous to be so depressed? This would make me laugh, if it wasn't such an overwhelming problem right now.
Posted by MrSandman on April 19, 2004, at 3:17:22
In reply to Re: I can't find it funny, but... » MrSandman, posted by Racer on April 17, 2004, at 13:43:12
Racer:
Thanks for your prompt, thorough response. It's further evidence- along with your year of heroically clinging to a carousel that appears to be accelerating ever faster on a journey to nowhere- that you're committed to feeling better.
Your negative thoughts seem to cascade so rapidly...that's not an accusation, just an observation. (I've spent time in that hell, too.) Just as you begin to defend yourself against one of them, along comes another surge, and you're drowning in emotional pain.
You describe a good amount of your misery being caused by some pretty specific self- accusatory thoughts, which come in rapid-fire succession. From your previous post:<Now I'm kicking myself for running out of the group early today, for failing miserably -- again -- to Do The Right Thing for my recovery, for thinking that it's anyone's fault but my own, and for my general failure in life.>
There seems to be a direct causal relationship between the several thoughts and the feeling:
1. I ran out on the group.
2. I've failed miserably, again.
3. I've failed to Do The Right Thing for my recovery.
4. My failure (running out) is all my fault.
5. I am a general failure in life.THEREFORE, I am kicking myself. ( Full of self -loathing, involuntary and voluntary, apparently well-deserved...though we all know that later on you'll be kicking yourself for kicking yourself.)
The promising thing I see is that you have the insight to identify which thoughts caused you to hurt (and then to hurt yourself even more, etc.)A lot of people can't do that.
It's hard to fight emotions with logic. You stand a much better chance of fighting the thoughts that cause them with logic. Try joining your defense team for a change. There's not much elbow room over at the prosecution table. Allow me to speak in your defense against the above allegations:1. I ran out of the group. (You did leave the group. That's no crime. You felt it was hurting you. People run when they feel threatened. Maybe your instincts were good.)
2. I've failed, miserably, again. (Failed? Miserably? At worst you made a mistake that you can correct next time the group meets. It was a new situation- people often mess up the first time around. Again? Have your previous "failures" been this trifling? Lucky you.)
3.I've failed to Do The Right Thing for my recovery. ( Is The Right Thing to show up on time and sit through a meeting you believe to be harmful? Does compliance with a treatment plan made by a Dr. you don't trust, based on a diaagnosis you don't agree with, necessarily lead to recovery? If the two goals are in conflict, do you choose compliance or recovery?)
4. My failure is all my fault. (Oh, really? Did the Dr. perhaps misdiagnose you? Did she send you to a group which you don't need ,or for which she failed to prepare you? Maybe the other group members weren't considerate of the needs of a newcomer.)
5. I am a general failure in life. ( You've been handed some tremendous challenges. You are attempting to overcome them in the best ways you know how. These haven't worked yet, but you're out here online trying to learn how better to help yourself. Meanwhile, you're giving good
advice and support to others...I may concede
that you're a general failure at evaluating the quality of your life!)THEREFORE,
I'm kicking myself. (Are you still kicking yourself after reading your "defense?")Anyway, that's a little technique you might want to try for isolating the irrationally negative thoughts and arguing against them in the hope of reducing the misery they cause. As you can see, my rebuttals were based largely on your own reflections. But there's something powerful about seeing a wrongheaded thought side by side with its rebutttal. You don't have to do this in "real time." It's fine to do just as you did above, recounting a cascade of negative thoughts and feelings from earlier in the day, last week, whenever.
If you think this sort of thing might be helpful, take a look at David Burns's "Feeling Good Handbook". (links below, via the notorious "double double quotation marks."
Anyway, this is one of the ways in which you can begin to help yourself. Don't expect great results right away. But the sooner you get started the closer you'll be to the results you want.
Posted by lonelygirl on April 19, 2004, at 16:21:51
In reply to Re: I can't find it funny, but..., posted by MrSandman on April 19, 2004, at 3:17:22
> If you think this sort of thing might be helpful, take a look at David Burns's "Feeling Good Handbook".
My CBT was showing me something in that book at my last appointment, and it was kind of chewed up... He said, "My dog loved this book. Just loved it! She couldn't put it down."
This is the end of the thread.
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