![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 46 to 70 of 137. Go back in thread:
Posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 10:36:04
In reply to Re: Therapists and compassion/interaction-Peg, Pfi » spoc, posted by Crooked Heart on March 19, 2004, at 4:16:23
Crooked Heart, the book summary you gave already did wonders for me in itself. I can't stress enough that I'm seeing that this board and thread really do have the potential to help heal. And I think it is unique amongst boards, in that almost always someone chimes in to present another view; stop a slanted downward spiral that could discourage others; etc.
I really do think I will put my unhappy experience in perspective much faster now and be less likely to store it with the things in my life that have felt like negative reflections on my character and substance. I just hope I can hurry up and snap out of the behaviors that have followed this upset...Retreating into myself and my computer as everything and everyone around me (and even myself physically) are unattended to.
Since I was so completely left to my own devices/imagination for so long with that analyst who wouldn't respond to direct and timely questions, I wondered if maybe he didn't want to ever "reward" or be positive with me because he might have jumped to the conclusion that instead I'm the type who needs to be knocked down from some ego trip or "attention seeking" behavior. I just couldn't imagine any other reason to treat/react to someone that way. But I wish he knew that in reality it is massively hard for me to ask for help or even small favors on any level whatsoever and I keep everything inside from friends and family (in the solitude of 'writing' on my computer, it's obviously another story). It's gotten to the point that I can't hide or deny that I'm disappearing more and more, and try as I might I know I sound different when I finally have to return those accruing phone calls or else someone will probably send the police over here. But that pdoc was the only person I opened up to or asked for help, an ear, or for a little "validation," which went against my twisted sense of pride and empowerment through self-blame (responsibility) to begin with. Which are big parts of what I need help with. But he taught me only to redouble (triple, quadruple) my tendency to be an island unto myself and not to seek a lift or kind word from any other.
BUT you are all helping to head that off at the pass, and I thank you.
--------
> Hi Spoc
>
> I'm in the middle of reading a book called "Falling into therapy" by Anna Sands. The author's experience sounds very similar to yours. Her first experience of therapy with a rigidly psychoanalytic therapist left her disoriented, undermined, her confidence shattered; a teacher and author of educational textbooks, she was for a while unable to function. (Her mental health previously had been OK, she went into therapy to help her 'become a better wife and mother'.)
>
> She later went to a therapist with a very different approach and had a much happier and very productive experience.
>
> This book was published in the UK. I'm not sure whether it would be available in the US without a whopping postal charge. In fact, it might be too depressing to read anyway :( If you're interested I'll try to do a summary when I've finished reading it. (Could be a while, I should *not* even be posting here now, there are deadlines I need to meet.) I suppose what I'm thinking is that it's such a relief when you find that you're not the only one, that other people have had similar experiences.
>
> That you still have to PAY for this in money as well makes it that much worse. What would happen if you refused to?
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 11:19:41
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 19, 2004, at 9:47:28
> I suppose my role here is to be that questioning person, the one that gets on your nerves but might make you think. I think Dinah mentioned the importance of such people.
Hmmm... Are you referring to the NASA floor of people? Just to be *absolutely* clear, I said nothing about getting on people's nerves in order to accomplish that goal. :) Just wanted to clarify so that it didn't sound like I was in favor of shock jocks and that sort of thing. Because, in my case at least, people who try to anger me into considering a different opinion merely succeed in angering me. Their point in doing so is lost to me.
I'm certainly not referring to you (or anyone else) as someone who gets on other people's nerves, or as the shock jock sort of person I'm talking about.
I'm just clarifying my stance on a position.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 19, 2004, at 13:15:48
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 11:19:41
> in my case at least, people who try to anger me into considering a different opinion merely succeed in angering me.
I just want to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil despite any angry feelings...
Bob
Posted by Tancred62 on March 19, 2004, at 14:09:38
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 11:19:41
Dinah. I was indeed referring to your NASA analogy, but probably should have chosen better words than "getting on one's nerves." I'll be more careful next time. I know what you meant, and I too don't want to be a "shock jock." I only want to express some concerns I have regarding the emotional closeness, and for some, distance, between therapist and patient. I've learned more about transference on this one string than I have in a lifetime.
Whatever we do, let's all try to have a good weekend. And remember, the vernal equinox is tomorrow. Happy Spring, everyone.
Posted by DaisyM on March 19, 2004, at 14:51:42
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 19, 2004, at 9:47:28
>>> think the relationship, and therefore its effects on me, would inevitably be nullified by the intrinsic dynamic between men and woman when they become intimate. I don't see how any real therapy would result. Which brings me full circle to the problem when the patient and the therapist try to use intimacy as a way to healing or improvement. Is there a happy medium?
<<<Maybe the issue is with your definition of the word "intimate." It sounds to me like your are thinking of intimate as being sexually loaded or stimulating somehow. Which can happen and as this thread shows, does. But I think many of us have developed "intimate" relationships with our Therapist without sexual overtones.
I am a woman in my 40s with a male Therapist who is slightly older than I am. (I've been in therapy for 10months.) I do not have romantic feelings for him. He describes our relationship as "intense" and he has encouraged an attachment because trusting is one of my key issues. As I have grown attached to him, I've been able to share more with him. I feel completely safe, and I do not worry that the male/female dynamic will change or endanger the work we are doing.
Maybe we've found that medium, but I think I have to give credit to my Therapist's professionalism and his experience. Everytime I want to run away from "our" relationship, he insists on holding it up to the light, talking about what is happening between us and clarifying what he is feeling and what it means for my therapy. I think he genuinely cares and I think he likes being a Therapist, which comes through in how he treats his clients. I think he uses intimacy as a healing tool by converting it to trust, which is the only way to get some of these issues up and out. And I think he offers support in which ever way is needed during that session, or the time in-between.
Therapy is one of the hardest things I've ever put myself through. If I didn't have the Therapist I do, or one who uses his approach, I can tell you I would not still be in it. I wish everyone's first experience was the same as mine.
Posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 15:01:43
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 19, 2004, at 9:47:28
>> I've already established myself as a cynic...and a skeptic, so forgive me if I offend anyone. I suppose my role here is to be that questioning person, the one that gets on your nerves but might make you think....
I do know what you mean (not that you intended for this to spin off into a subject in itself)! I feel like that person too sometimes, as in my very first post on this thread. I need to watch my words and was afraid maybe I had offended. But the "cynicism" you refer to is probably just as often mere realism. Whichever, the difference may be in where it comes from and where it gets applied. It could come from having the contrary thoughts spontaneously; or from consciously looking for contrary thoughts to plant; or both. Here I think you're exhibiting the first, genuine wondering, as I was. The other type has clear value too for debate purposes, but in this setting probably needs to be weighed more carefully first.
Regarding your actual points, about all I can say (well that's rarely true) is, switch your name for mine and I could have written it myself. Ya got me! I alternate between trying to use logic to see and present the positive side of something, and speaking from my gut, which is often more "cynical" or possibly realistic. But I never got answers to the things you're wondering about either. With my pdoc the romantic (positive) transference never came up; I debated him about the instances of what he presumed were negative transference, and how that could ultimately result in usefulness. Because he admitted near The End that trans in general was the lion's share of his "treatment;" said current or historical life events and specific symptoms (e.g. compulsions, anxiety attacks, eating disorders, etc.) were of much lesser importance to discuss.....
Actually I can see the potential simplicity in negative transference more so than I can in the positive (that is the term for that type), erotic trans you're talking about. With negative, if the therapist does at some moments feel to you like (e.g.) the bully who terrorized you in youth and whom you now feel the presence of in many people, maybe you'll see by acting out on and defending yourself to your therapist that HEY! Not only is everyone out there NOT Bruiser, but I see I can effectively stand up for myself and not end up collapsing or dying! Nifty! (In reality I doubt it's often that streamlined, and as I've seen, some would be better or less dangerous with its application than others). But in the love/erotic cases I don't get it either, unless the patient truly couldn't feel anymore and any stirrings whatsoever in heart or pants would be a good thing. And I'm going to look into the brain hemisphere/relational transference-type approach that the women here talked about. But WOW, that I have even more trouble visualizing and making sense of sequentially. Your observations are all very good and deserve up-front answers but....
[WARNING: FUN WITH VENTING FOLLOWS, NON-CYNICS AND THOSE WITH GOOD "Ts" STOP HERE]
.....I bet that's the only time we may be able to get them -- UP FRONT. As in, print out and bring your post to your initial consultation and say, "Satisy me on how this stuff pans out first." (Putting cart before horse as far as pos/erotic trans of course, but you could frame it all more generally.) When I finally rose up and insisted on the discussion, to be shown how and if there is a light at the end of the pos./neg. transference theory tunnel, I was only deflected to how much more difficult our work would be if I tended to question. Well, I know broad distrust is usually bad, but I thought blind faith usually is too (but actually I did have it in him for awhile due to my own trans-idealization). So, I suppose that pdoc was in effect saying, "People's problems are caused by the intangible forces in themselves that they don't understand, and that's a bad thing they need to become conscious of to control. So let's begin by using an intangible force you don't understand but it'll be a good thing, so forget about the needing to become conscious and control parts for now and just trust me on this....I promise I'll try not to bump into anything unintentionally while I have your skullcap off.....What's that you say? Your insistence on solid answers and good information has demonstrably served you very well in the past? This is only making our work here harder (for ME that is! Ha ha. But no problem, I call that I get to say it's yet another personality problem of yours and we'll add it to the list! OOPS! There I go bumping into things unintentionally already. Oh well, you'll never figure it out, and I have more pills for that anyway)."
I AM TRULY (MOSTLY) JUST COMPOSING A TOPIC-INSPIRED PIECE HERE, APOLOGIES TO ALL!!!! On a serious note, I was cheered up enough here to be able to do that.
============>> I think Dinah mentioned the importance of such people. And thank you spoc, for your rational analysis on transference. I was thinking all last night, and now, after reading lonelygirl's post, thinking more this morning, that this dynamic known as transference has some problematic paradoxes. One of these paradoxes involves the simultaneity of therapy and fantasy. I realize that some would say that such fantasy (imagining a romantic relationship with the therapist, etc.) is the whole point, and that a good therapist would use that aspect of the therapist/patient relationship to work through past issues and establish new behavior, but at what emotional cost? In one sense, the relationship becomes a sort of play-acting, where therapist and patient (I refer here only to the male therapist/female patient relationship) engage in romantic attachment, flirtation, longing, etc., all for the goal of "repairing" the brain. After reading lonelygirl's post, I can't see how yet another rejection would help her situation. I also don't think that a man in power (therapist) can maintain impartiality when he knows (and most men know) his woman patient sees him and/or his attention as an object of desire. It just seems to duplicate the very dysfunction the patient is trying to mend. I've heard the rhetoric that "good" or "professional" therapists that know how to use transference can control the situation and use the emotional dynamic to advantage, but why should we assume that they are any less human than the patient? Reading lonelygirl's post (that name is truly ironic) one would assume she is talking about a male friend at work, the married guy next door, or the UPS man.
>
> Now I will lurch in the other direction. I once had a woman therapist that was so resistant to ANY notion of intimacy between me and her that it bordered on the ludicrous. How on earth was I (or she) supposed to deny the fact that we were a man and a woman talking about my most intimate feelings? In other words, I was not ALLOWED to ask her any questions about how SHE felt about men, sexuality, her view about relationships, etc. It was all a one-way street where I poured out my feelings to what seemed like a automaton of a therapist. "If you see me downtown don't talk to me. We are not friends." Oh, OK, I'll remember that next time I tell you everything I'm feeling. Jeez! What a joke. What made things worse was that I could not deny (to myself) my attraction to her physically (sexually?). Nonetheless, she was very unattractive as a person; she was, in fact, not a person but anthropomorphic manual. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I completely understand how a more intimate relationship with a therapist could be a good thing. I suppose the ultimate ideal would be to have a therapist as a committed lover (who would talk to you for free!). So, here I am, contradicting myself. But in imagining myself having a more intimate woman therapist I foresee a problem if I wanted to have some transference with her. I think the relationship, and therefore its effects on me, would inevitably be nullified by the intrinsic dynamic between men and woman when they become intimate. I don't see how any real therapy would result. Which brings me full circle to the problem when the patient and the therapist try to use intimacy as a way to healing or improvement. Is there a happy medium?
>
Posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 15:14:41
In reply to Re: thanks, posted by Dr. Bob on March 19, 2004, at 13:15:48
Dr. Bob, I apologize again to you and all for my sarcasm. With enough disclaimers I hoped it might make some people laugh. But if only I had checked the thread again and saw your post before I clicked to submit it, I would probably have changed my mind. I don't know where the fine is in this stuff yet. This is not at all the demeanor I exhibit in therapy and overall I do look at all sides of most things and emerge unbiased, or so I really believe. I hope I have tempered all my commentaries with enough caveats that this was only one experience with one analyst, rather than a generalization about all therapists or certain types of them; or about the chances for success with any of them. :- (
> > in my case at least, people who try to anger me into considering a different opinion merely succeed in angering me.
>
> I just want to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil despite any angry feelings...
>
> Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 15:52:13
In reply to Re: I COULD NOT POSSIBLY BE MORE EMBARRASSED » Dr. Bob, posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 15:14:41
I think Dr. Bob was saying he knew it was a volatile issue, and he appreciated that we were keeping the civility rules in mind.
I'm just hoping he didn't take my post to mean that I was angry about this discussion, because I'm not. I was just clarifying my own position on provoking thought. :)
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 19, 2004, at 17:25:43
In reply to Re: thanks, posted by Dr. Bob on March 19, 2004, at 13:15:48
You're welcome! To me. this thread is a good example of a good thread! Various people, including me, got to express their true feelings, which in turn encouraged other people to express what they were really feeling. And there were strong differences of experience, opinion and feeling. If we don't have that spontaneity and realness, it can get really boring here.
It's been my experience here over the past year that, almost without exception, people do not hurt one another on these boards. They educate, trust and support one another, and self-correct if they do go over the line briefly and hurt someone. The person who has done that may need to hear reactions from others to know they have done so, but then they seem to just naturally try to understand the other person's point of view, and will often apologize. I think you can count on people with disorders of "affect regulation", which all of us here have in one form or another, to be very empathic and sensitive in this regard.
Posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 18:50:12
In reply to Re: I can't see any reason you should be :) » spoc, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 15:52:13
> I think Dr. Bob was saying he knew it was a volatile issue, and he appreciated that we were keeping the civility rules in mind....>
(I noticed that the post I was worried about may not be visible from the main thread...sometimes!? It's there in one browser, but is kind of hidden in another...)
But anyway, you're surely right that Dr. Bob meant "Thanks for being civil to each other," not "Thanks in advance for keeping it vanilla at all times." Hey, does this mean that I just had some TRANSFERENCE with Dr. Bob? Maybe when I read his post he felt representative to me of the kind, normal folk I'm afraid I've let down and disappointed! So then it's an overactive guilt response! Thanks Dr. Bob, send me your bill! :-)
Posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 19:01:55
In reply to Re: I can't see any reason you should be :) » Dinah, posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 18:50:12
A fair number of us have experienced transference with Dr. Bob - the ultimate blank slate.
I generally see him as a funny, clever, occasionally noncomprehending and often incomprehensible, but overall benevolent authority figure who really does care about us, although he may not be really skillful at showing it.
I wonder if that says more about him or about me?
(I think my therapist thinks "me")
Oooh. Dr. Bob as the Psychobabble Rorschach test?
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:08:43
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » Fallen4myT, posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 8:11:39
Thank you Spoc that was very nice of you to say and lol in person you would be shocked at how much I can and DO say..I tend to digress a lot :) A happy medium would be nice :) Anyhow I think you're very nice and again thanks
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:11:35
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 19, 2004, at 14:09:38
Tancred62, Spring is good :) I can whip the new spring garb out :) lol...Happy Spring to you too and thanks!
> Dinah. I was indeed referring to your NASA analogy, but probably should have chosen better words than "getting on one's nerves." I'll be more careful next time. I know what you meant, and I too don't want to be a "shock jock." I only want to express some concerns I have regarding the emotional closeness, and for some, distance, between therapist and patient. I've learned more about transference on this one string than I have in a lifetime.
>
> Whatever we do, let's all try to have a good weekend. And remember, the vernal equinox is tomorrow. Happy Spring, everyone.
>
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:13:33
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » spoc, posted by Pfinstegg on March 18, 2004, at 16:01:11
P, you my friend are most wise and well dressed :P
> I do go to a psychoanalyst- but a contemporary "relational" one. We explore all the feelings which come up between us- and understanding and working with them is the most important thing we do. The contemporary thinking is that out pre-conscious and unconscious feelings are laid down in early life in our right hemispheres by the relationships we had then. So- here's where the "relational" part comes in - the patient and therapist need to allow their right hemispheres to interact. In this way, we find out how we truly felt as children, but we have an opportunity to allow that part of the brain to develop new and healthier ways of interacting with other people. Recent research has actually shown that people with abuse and/or neglect in their childhoolds have smaller right hemispheres, with many fewer neurons connecting to the fear centers in the limbic system- they are much less able to use their right cortexes to calm down their tendencies to react to small stressors with extreme fear, rage, dissociation or hopelessness. But, this research has also shown that vital parts of the right frontal cortex are "plastic:- capable of growing throughout life. Modern therapists utilize this knowledge to help patients grow through the relationships they develop with their therapists. The relationship aspect has become so central that the word "transference" really doesn't begin to describe the new thinking about this.The clothes thing with Fallen was just plain fun, and had to do with doing things in a new, happier way. But we are also dealing with immensely painful things and trying to do our best to grow beyond them. For one person, having intensely loving and erotic feelings may be central to their growth. For another, something else might be more important- such as developing basic trust in another human being. For a lot of us, all these things are included at different times. You can be sure we are not wasting our time on frivolities! Like you, and everyone else, we want to live the fullest, richest lives we can.
>
> As to the gender of a therapist, I';d say - choose the one you think would mean the most to you. Women (sadly the majority on Psychobabble) have had very meaningful and successful experiences with both sexes, and men are surely the same.
Posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 19:33:24
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » spoc, posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:08:43
Posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 19:59:15
In reply to Re: Join the club. » spoc, posted by Dinah on March 19, 2004, at 19:01:55
> A fair number of us have experienced transference with Dr. Bob - the ultimate blank slate. > > I generally see him as a funny, clever, occasionally noncomprehending and often incomprehensible, but overall benevolent authority figure who really does care about us, although he may not be really skillful at showing it.> I wonder if that says more about him or about me? >
I haven't been reading here long enough to encounter clues beyond the "civil/not civil" calls. But wow! After reading your hunches and comparing them to mine, which are based on no knowledge of him beyond the establishment of this board, I see that I really MUST idealize certain *types* of people (I KNOW I don't idealize in general by any means). I was sitting here assuming he had all the answers and could read between the lines of every misplaced punctuation mark on the entire board with one brain hemisphere tied behind his back. And that y'all have surely helped him achieve that level of comprehension of course!!!
So, the ultimate blank slate, at least here. You're right! And I won't even take it personally coming from a website, which couldn't crack a smile if it wanted to! Even if I was wearing a pink camisole!! : )
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 20:03:10
In reply to Re: Join the club. » Dinah, posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 19:59:15
MEGA LOLING SPOC too cute and well worded..Good sense of humor I like it and you.
>> I was sitting here assuming he had all the answers and could read between the lines of every misplaced punctuation mark on the entire board with one brain hemisphere tied behind his back. And that y'all have surely helped him achieve that level of comprehension of course!!! >>>
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 19, 2004, at 20:31:28
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » Pfinstegg, posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 19:13:33
Awww...thank you, F. It's a pleasure to receive such a nice compliment from such a well-dressed (read sexy, in the best sense) and big-hearted fellow therapee. Happy Spring Equinox to you also! P
Posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 20:34:52
In reply to Re: saying what you are feeling.. » Fallen4myT, posted by Pfinstegg on March 19, 2004, at 20:31:28
Posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 21:30:07
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 19, 2004, at 9:47:28
Thank you for responding to my post, and I really appreciate your, I guess, dissenting opinion. There is obviously not a simple answer, and it is good to consider both sides. I am not entirely comfortable, either, with the concept of transference. I am definitely not comfortable in discussing my feelings with him.
I also understand the sort of catch-22 you see. While I am not comfortable about having these feelings about him, I also know that I probably would have stopped going after I finished my mandatory counseling if I not for my strong attachment to him. All the other psychologists and psychiatrists I've been to have been female (with the exception of one I saw only once for some testing), and I did not like them, I did not like the counseling, and I went only because I was forced to. I did not feel comfortable with them, and I did not want to be open with them. I guess part of my motivation in even trying is because I like (love?) my psychologist and I want to make him "happy" or... whatever. I know that if I weren't seeing him, I would just quit altogether. I don't know whether that would be a good thing or a bad thing.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 22:25:53
In reply to Re: Questions about transference » lonelygirl, posted by spoc on March 19, 2004, at 9:48:21
Thank you so much for replying :)
> I don't think that IS how combination treatment (half talk and half meds) should go! Sounds like you were diverted from the talking part prematurely and put only into a "med management" maintenance thing. I wouldn't get disillusioned from how it went down, maybe as a "youth" decisions are made for us that aren't right.
==========
Well, I wasn't exactly cooperative with the "talk" part of it. Actually, I wasn't cooperative with the meds part, either -- but it is easier to pretend I am than fight about it. I guess I am less concerned about that than about the fact that everyone seems to think that they are going to throw pills at me for the rest of my life and somehow that will (and already does) make everything ok. It really did make me disillusioned about everything, because I determined that nobody really listened/understood/cared about what my real problems were, and didn't have any real answers to offer me. I have continued to have this perception of all psychologists and psychiatrists, up to and including my mandatory counseling at school. Despite my initial resistance, though, this guy (my current psychologist) actually seemed like he "got" it, and what he said actually seemed to make sense.
>You mentioned in your other post that this pdoc and your current psychotherapist don't know about each other. I'm not sure how -- if ever -- this works, but maybe you could request for them to "pair" for you. OR -- since this pdoc is irrelevant to you and you don't take the meds, maybe you could just go with whoever the campus doc would use, if you are interested in trying meds again....
==========
Well, for starters, I am not interested in trying meds again. If I were, my current psychiatrist is fine. I have the meds and I could take them right now if I wanted (but I don't). Also, there are even more complications with this situation that would make it pretty unlikely for a "pairing" to work. First of all, I attend school in a different state from where my parents live. The psychiatrist is where my parents live, and paid for by their insurance (as are the meds). I go in to get refill prescriptions when I go home for school breaks.The psychologist is at my school's health center (in a different state from the psychiatrist). Plus, my parents don't even know that I am going. They don't even know anything about how I got in trouble and was forced to go. I'm pretty sure they would never in their wildest dreams imagine me going voluntarily.
But this brings up another question... Should I tell the psychologist about the situation with the psychiatrist? I have not told him I am supposed to be on meds, or that I ever was (though he does know that I have been to other psychologists and not had good experiences). I will definitely not tell the psychiatrist about the psychologist (if she even cared anyway), but I am not sure if I should tell the psychologist. I don't know what he would think of that. Unfortunately, I think the more I tell him, the crazier he realizes I am. Might he get mad at me, either for not taking the meds or for lying about it? (I can't remember if I technically lied, because if the question is whether I am TAKING any medication, the truthful answer is no, but I can't remember if there were further questions about that.)
>Maybe this is an opportunity for you to work through what has felt like rejection from men. For instance if initial idealization has anything to do with it, maybe you'll see why you "pick" who you do and why it ends up hurting. (Armchair logic, watch out!)
==========
Wellllll... I don't really think it is as complicated as all that. The bottom line is that I am overweight and unattractive, and no matter who I "pick," he doesn't like me. I don't think it's about picking the wrong guys -- there just are no "right" guys.
>Maybe there is a common life theme in there you really should work through, but perhaps not first, with someone inexperienced? Could you bring yourself to, after getting another opinion, ask the campus doc flat out if for your own sake maybe you should switch?
==========
Although he just recently got his Ph.D., he is not that inexperienced. He counseled at the health center (under the supervision of a licensed counselor) for more than a year before he was licensed, and maybe even somewhere else before that.So... Does he probably know that I "love" him? I mean, he is young (somewhere around 30, give or take a couple years), intelligent, and nice. I can't possibly be the first one to feel this way about him. I assume, then, that there is a reason he is basically ignoring the whole issue.
>But as if everything would play out on cue in accordance with the textbook model of transference in general, my pdoc forced situations in order to believe he was feeling to me like all the key problematic figures in my life (whom he identified and overgeneralized about based on two initial sessions).
==========
OVERRULED, LOL! That would really piss me off :)This kind of reminds me of something else he said to me. He was talking about "projections." Is that considered related to transference? I asked him why everyone is so scared of me, and he said that maybe it is because I am so reserved that people don't know very much about me, so they "fill in the blanks" by "projecting" other ideas onto me -- for example, when they find out that I got in a verbal argument with another girl (which was what got me sent to counseling in the first place), they think of me as someone who is "always" arguing with other people, etc.
THEN, he started talking about how he experiences people "projecting" feelings onto him. He said that sometimes, when people get sent to him as I was (i.e., against their will), they view him as "the man," and he personifies to them the strong arm of the law coming down on them, so they get mad at him even though he has done nothing bad to them. He also said that sometimes, people have unreasonable expectations of him being able to wave his magic wand and instantly "cure" them, and when he can't do that, they get mad and "project" the blame for their original problems onto him. Something like that...
Geez, there I go rambling on and on again. :(
Posted by spoc on March 20, 2004, at 7:22:02
In reply to Re: Join the club. » spoc, posted by Fallen4myT on March 19, 2004, at 20:03:10
> MEGA LOLING SPOC too cute and well worded..Good sense of humor I like it and you.>
SEEE???? The proof that you are actually one of *THE* smartest and most perceptive people on this whole board keeps rolling in!!! ;- )
And P.S., between you and me, I'm really hot and well dressed too! ;- ) ;- )
Posted by Tancred62 on March 20, 2004, at 11:13:45
In reply to Re: Questions about transference » Tancred62, posted by lonelygirl on March 19, 2004, at 21:30:07
Well, at least it is a relationship with someone of the opposite sex. I've been single for a long time now, and sometimes I really miss being close to a woman, not just sexually, but in the myriad of ways I could be. My pdoc (?)is a man, which is of no concern to me, because our conversations are strictly about medication. This may sound silly, but I really like women, especially funny, talkative women. I ran into a couple of women from work last night as I was coming out of the grocery store. We just sat down at the cheap outdoor furniture display near the entrance and talked for about a half hour. Just talked and talked and laughed. We're all in our 40s (me 41)and we've all got our relationship stories. But essentially I'm conflicted about relationships. Whenever I see couples shopping together in stores I look at them and study their movements and behavior and I always tend to see them as pathetic souls, needy and trapped by cultural and/or biological imperatives. I say "Thank God I'm not part of a couple. How disgusting." It's like people's personalities start to die when they become a pair. I see couples that look ultimately bored out of their minds. But if I see a woman alone in the same store I will say "I wonder what it would be like to be with her." I know I'm supposed to be babbling about medication, and I've used that word twice in this post so Dr. Bob won't refer me to some other board, but I'm really talking about relationships in general. I'm in the public library now, and I just love the fact that I don't have to think about the plans or schedules of another person. "What do you want to do tonight, dear?" God I'm selfish. But then again I can be lonelyman, too. But part of me likes being lonely, observing all the "other" people pretending to be "normal" and happy. You know, those "shiny happy people holding hands" that REM sung about. It's always catch 22, lonelygirl. I can't tell if being in a commited relationship or marriage means freedom or imprisonment. Probably both. I have to say, however, that my meds have taken away the totally negative, downright dark and sinister perspective I had, say 3 months ago. And it took a long time to get to this more tolerable place. I think I'll eat sushi for lunch at the supermarket; alone. I like doing that. It's MY routine.
Later, folks.
Posted by lonelygirl on March 20, 2004, at 11:51:10
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 20, 2004, at 11:13:45
Once again, I identify so much with what you said here about the relationships (well, except the part about liking women). Even though I am always wishing I had a relationship, I always think about things like that -- how much I would hate to have to worry about someone else's schedules, routines, wants, and needs. Then I feel selfish for thinking that way. A major difference between you and me, though, is that I have never been in a relationship (I have never even been on a date), so I can only speculate about these things.
Anyway, in an attempt to remain "on topic," something that is hard for me in my "relationship" with my psychologist is that I like him so much that I feel like I wouldn't mind so much to go along with his routines and needs. I guess that makes it more difficult to convince myself that I don't *really* want a relationship. Of course, even this is only in theory; perhaps if reality were suspended and I did have an actual relationship with him, I would tire of it anyway. I guess I'll never know.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 20, 2004, at 16:05:16
In reply to Re: Questions about transference, posted by Tancred62 on March 20, 2004, at 11:13:45
> Well, at least it is a relationship with someone of the opposite sex.
I just feel the need to point out that transference can also happen between same sex T's and clients.
Regards,
gg
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