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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 12 to 36 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2004, at 9:22:49
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? » Dinah, posted by Pandabear on January 11, 2004, at 9:10:48
There are poorly trained therapists who will refer out clients who express an erotic transference. But the majority, thankfully, have proved not to.
I've talked to my therapist who says he would never refer out someone for expressing their feelings towards him, unless they were threats. Although he would refer out someone who broke the boundaries. Came and sat on his lap, took off their clothes, showed up at his house, etc.
My own transference is maternal, not erotic, and he doesn't have a problem with it, although he doesn't in any way encourage it.
If you think your therapist is experienced, well trained, and already has a good notion of how you feel. And if you stay within the boundaries. The chance that she will terminate you is present (and it would be imprudent not to mention it), but very small. Especially if it isn't an erotic transference. Some therapists have a problem sorting out the ethics rules on erotic feelings in therapy between a client's feelings and their feelings, for which I recommend the training course:
http://www.apa.org/videos/4310570.html?CFID=2493388&CFTOKEN=89863392
Posted by Pandabear on January 11, 2004, at 9:23:34
In reply to Re: Is this Transference?, posted by lilmsbubbles07 on January 11, 2004, at 8:36:24
That really freaks me out that she could terminate my sessions. I think that is wrong...if you are supposed to talk about anything...then you should be able to do just that..dont you think?
Posted by lilmsbubbles07 on January 11, 2004, at 9:34:04
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? » lilmsbubbles07, posted by Pandabear on January 11, 2004, at 9:23:34
yes it is very scary ...my old therapist i was with for 3 yrs adn told me i could say anything and it took me a year and half to bring it up to him and then he transfered me it was a horriablr excperince !!!! i hope ur therapist wouldnt do that to u because i think it makes things worse i think diana and all would agree with me ... i do agree that some therapist are not trained very well and dont think mine was ...but dont let that stop u from telling ur therapist about it cus 9 out 10 wont do that ...it will make u feel so much better and u will be able to work on other issues in ur life ..this board helps alot and gives very good advice !!!!
Posted by Joslynn on January 11, 2004, at 11:16:00
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? » Pandabear, posted by lilmsbubbles07 on January 11, 2004, at 9:34:04
Hi Bubbles, you sound a little better. Glad you are hanging in there.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 11, 2004, at 11:35:44
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? » lilmsbubbles07, posted by Joslynn on January 11, 2004, at 11:16:00
I definitely think you should consider bringing it up. It's never easy, but like others have said, it can and should be very helpful in the long run.
I'm sorry to hear about some getting transferred after this. As much as that must have stunk, perhaps it's better if the T can't handle a transference. It seems like it would always be an underlying issue. If the T is so anxious about it and does not get consultation, then he or she likely would not be effective for you anyway. But most T's are prepared for this.
Another thing, if you choose not to address it now, don't worry. There are always other opportunities. As my supervisor always says, if it doesn't happen now, it will come up again and again if it needs to.
Take care,
g
Posted by lilmsbubbles07 on January 11, 2004, at 11:53:50
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? » lilmsbubbles07, posted by Joslynn on January 11, 2004, at 11:16:00
yes i am doing better it still hurts like crazy and there are alot of hard times with my new t because she is not as understanding but i am gettin better!!!
Posted by Dinah on January 11, 2004, at 12:23:35
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? » Joslynn, posted by lilmsbubbles07 on January 11, 2004, at 11:53:50
Posted by Catmom on January 13, 2004, at 2:01:29
In reply to Is this Transference?, posted by Pandabear on January 10, 2004, at 21:09:09
Pandabear, I have a little theory (which is probably not unique to me) that we all have a melange of transference/projection/countertranference issues in the normal business of going about daily life.
Maybe you see a woman in a store and she's struggling and you have a moment of compassion and identification because she "seems" like your mother. But in reality she could be quite different.
In therapy, I think that the transference develops over time since we come in a heightened emotional state that makes us vulnerable, feeling insecure, almost child-like. And then we project, or transfer, onto the T the kinds of emotions we had as a child. The T might become the Good Father, the Bad Mother, the Surly Sibling, etc. to our way of thinking.
If we had an inadequate or a bad mother, we might hope to find the "Good Mother" embodied in the T. We also might "expect" that the T will treat us like the bad or good parent did.
Feeling so vulnerable, we start to cling to the T just like a young child will cling to a parent even when the parent is a poor one.
You write that " I just hate the idea that once i leave the room, I mean absolutely nothing to her!"We never really can know what we mean to the T. Depending on the T, we could be people who are deeply meaningful but the T cannot say so since that would gratify a fantasy. Or maybe we mean just a paycheck. Or maybe we are a tedious boring nuisance. I just don't know. I suspect that the T will respond to patients differently.
I sometimes run into the possible error of comparing my job (I am a teacher) with that of the T. I have some students I really like because they are responding to the material; I have some students I don't like so much because they cut class, tell me that they hate the class, or fall asleep in class and snore. Others I am really happy with when I see that they improve as time goes by. I doubt that any T is able to feel uniform feelings about each and every patient. On the other hand, the T has had training about how to manage transference/countertransference. I doubt that there are many Ts who can go home at the end of the day and NEVER think about a patient.
It's really embarrassing to have juvilile feelings about a T, but it's a part of the process and could be great grist for the mill of talking in therapy.
In my own experience, I have really good, positive feelings about my T, yet I have had dreams in which she is really quite abusive and rejecting. The dream products clearly reflect some sort of anxiety about her (a transferential one) which I intellectually and rationally realize simply cannot exist. In "real life" my T would never throw me into a dumpster, for example.
It's important to be open and honest, even if it feels humiliating. Especially since you view your T as "an amazing therapist and very smart and trustworthy".
This is an opportunity for you to learn more about yourself!
Good luck!
Posted by crushedout on January 13, 2004, at 17:00:45
In reply to Re: Is this Transference?, posted by Dinah on January 11, 2004, at 8:36:49
> > I wish she would bring it up...I guess she is waiting for me to?!!
>
> My therapist has this pesky assumption that I should be in charge of my own therapy. It annoys me no end. :) But he would almost certainly wait for me to bring it up. Maybe a leading question or two, but no more than that.That's funny: mine has that same pesky assumption. Actually, before I confessed my love for her, she used to ask me questions that I thought were trying to get at my transference (but maybe I was just being paranoid). Like, I would say I wanted to get a tan so that I would be more attractive and she would ask, "Who are you trying to be attractive for?" and I would look at her sideways and sheepishly and get all nervous, and be like, "oh, i dunno. no one in particular, i guess."
See, that would have been a good opening for me to bring it up but I always got too embarrassed to admit it to her. I still have trouble saying stuff like that to her face now, even though she basically knows everything.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 19:01:56
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? PANDABEAR, posted by Catmom on January 13, 2004, at 2:01:29
> Pandabear, I have a little theory (which is probably not unique to me) that we all have a melange of transference/projection/countertranference issues in the normal business of going about daily life.
>
I absolutely agree. Did you ever dislike someone for no reason you could think of? Who knows what was going on there? My T said to me that when people are together, their two unconciouses "talk" to each other. This makes a great deal of sense to me. I think a good example is how you can feel an instant connection with someone, even though they are not saying or doing anything much different than someone you do not connect with so readily.And, I had a "bad father" tranasference with my last supervisor. Once I figured it out, I laughed a bit to myself, but it explained how I felt so criticized by her all the time that I started to really hate her.
> On the other hand, the T has had training about how to manage transference/countertransference. I doubt that there are many Ts who can go home at the end of the day and NEVER think about a patient.
As a trainee in clinical psychology, I can tell you, I always seem to think about my clients when away from the office. I can't help it. Their issues, personalities, and our interactions in therapy are so thought-provoking. And I learn so much from them. I used to worry that this meant I was "too engaged" with my clients, but I now I realize it just means that I love what I do and I am continually stimulated by it. That can't be a bad thing.
>
>
> It's important to be open and honest, even if it feels humiliating. Especially since you view your T as "an amazing therapist and very smart and trustworthy".My own experience with a client opening up to me and talking about his transference was a wonderful learning experience. I could tell what he was so desperately trying to say, and I was hurting so much for him about how difficult it was to say it. But I felt like I needed to let him say it. That his ability to trust me was more important than my making it easier for him. And it definitely added a great deal of trust and empathy to the therapy relationship for us both to process it open and non-judgementally.
So to anyone struggling with this: I encourage you to try to talk to a trusted T about it, even if it feels terribly scary. It IS difficult, but often very helpful.
Of course, I can't say that I have talked with my own T about a transference yet. But I am not aware of one. He's hinting and providing opportunities to bring it up. So, I can resonate with both aspects of the dilemma.
Good luck and take care,
g
Posted by crushedout on January 13, 2004, at 19:39:00
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? PANDABEAR » Catmom, posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 19:01:56
> So to anyone struggling with this: I encourage you to try to talk to a trusted T about it, even if it feels terribly scary. It IS difficult, but often very helpful.
>Where does it get you, though? I hear a lot of people saying that "working through" the transference with your T is very helpful, but no one seems to be able to explain to me HOW it's helpful. And I can't for the life of me figure it out. I'm asking honestly. Does anyone know????
I'm sure it's different for everyone, but then, is it universally helpful, regardless?
Posted by naiad on January 13, 2004, at 20:02:47
In reply to Where does working through get you????, posted by crushedout on January 13, 2004, at 19:39:00
Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 20:05:34
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? PANDABEAR » Catmom, posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 19:01:56
> As a trainee in clinical psychology, I can tell you, I always seem to think about my clients when away from the office. I can't help it. Their issues, personalities, and our interactions in therapy are so thought-provoking. And I learn so much from them. I used to worry that this meant I was "too engaged" with my clients, but I now I realize it just means that I love what I do and I am continually stimulated by it. That can't be a bad thing.
It's great to have you on the board! It's so interesting to hear about things from the other side. I always assume my therapist never ever thinks about me. He's only mentioned thinking of me once. His Sunday School class was on the Gospel of James, and he thought of me because he knows I'm a big James fan. That's the only time I know of.
> >
> >
> > It's important to be open and honest, even if it feels humiliating. Especially since you view your T as "an amazing therapist and very smart and trustworthy".
>
> My own experience with a client opening up to me and talking about his transference was a wonderful learning experience. I could tell what he was so desperately trying to say, and I was hurting so much for him about how difficult it was to say it. But I felt like I needed to let him say it. That his ability to trust me was more important than my making it easier for him. And it definitely added a great deal of trust and empathy to the therapy relationship for us both to process it open and non-judgementally.
>It sounds like you're going to be a great therapist. The sort any of us would be happy to have.
(I often think it would be sooo beneficial for therapists to read this board - NOT MINE OF COURSE!! What do you think? Or would it scare them senseless?)
Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 20:10:39
In reply to Where does working through get you????, posted by crushedout on January 13, 2004, at 19:39:00
Well, you feel a heck of a lot better once it's no longer an issue for you.
I think the idea may be that if you customarily interact with people in a certain way and you learn to act with your therapist a different way, it'll extend to your other relationships as well. But I don't know. There are so many definitions of transference and ideas about what to do with it that I can't say for sure.
Have you read any of the books on using the erotic transference in therapy? I know there is at least one devoted to the subject. I haven't read it though. And hundreds on using transference in general. I've read at least a portion of those, but the answers are different enough that I don't know I could give you a straight answer.
I'm currently leaning towards attachment theory. So there would be some sort of corrective emotional experience I think?
Posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 20:12:20
In reply to Where does working through get you????, posted by crushedout on January 13, 2004, at 19:39:00
That is a good question. I can't say it's universally helpful, because I'm not sure that anything is. But I know that it can help take the intensity of the feelings down, or it can clarify confusion.
Let's say jypothetically that someone has a mother transference, and wishes the therapist would take on the role of a good, nurturing, validating mother. This wish may lead to feelings of dependence and then frustration as the therapist doesn't meet their needs. Instead of being tossed between feeling attached and feeling let down (which may be similar to the person's feelings about their own mother), you could talk about it. Opening up this way may help with understanding another relationship which lets you down, or may help with recognition of why their feelings seem so confusing. Ideally, this working through would then lead to the person having a sense of more choices in behavior in response to triggers related to the ransference. You would be working from a more conscious place than if you never had the transference and working through.
Does this make any sense? It definitely depends on how it is worked through. Just admitting a transference and having the T say, "oh, okay" and not processing it is not really helpful, IMO.
Posted by naiad on January 13, 2004, at 20:36:59
In reply to Re: Where does working through get you????, posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 20:12:20
gardenergirl,
Thank you so much for your lucid explanation of how transference could be helpful. Even your example was very meaningful for me.
I will make dinner for you anytime! We could talk about gardening!
I agree with Dinah. Your posts to this board are really helpful. Thanks again.
Posted by Pandabear on January 13, 2004, at 20:38:56
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? PANDABEAR » Catmom, posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 19:01:56
Thank you so much for what you have said, I did talk to my therapist yesterday and I was really glad that I opened up to her...Of course, Im still uncovering stuff to her, but she is being really understanding and is helping me work through it. Having opened up my feelings to her is helping me to open up other areas of my life that I havent been able to talk about so it is a good thing. My medicine is being increased tonight for the next 4 weeks and so it is supposed to be helping me too...we shall see. I will meet with her again tomorrow which is good. I am worried about the whole being to dependent on her but, right now i cannot imagine not being able to talk to her for two weeks or even three. So, I guess going two times a week will be just fine...
Im so impressed by this website. Being able to post my thoughts and concerns and having others that I dont even know who are helping to reduce my anxiety is so amazing to me. Thank you to all that have been responding to me...there truely are some great people in this world.
God Bless!
Posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 20:39:11
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 20:05:34
>
> It's great to have you on the board! It's so interesting to hear about things from the other side.I'm glad it's okay for me to be here. Sometimes, it feels like I'm spying, but it's weird wearing both hats when reading posts. This board teaches me so much about the therapy process, and it gives me support for my own therapy process. More bang for the buck!
>
> It sounds like you're going to be a great therapist. The sort any of us would be happy to have.Thanks! I certainly hope I would be someone people would love to have, but of course I wonder how my clients think about me outside of sessions.
>
> (I often think it would be sooo beneficial for therapists to read this board - NOT MINE OF COURSE!! What do you think? Or would it scare them senseless?)It really is beneficial to me, although I have to admit, it really does provide a window into a person's experience that we don't really get otherwise. At first, I wondered about the intensity of everyone's experiences. I thought, wow, is that how people are feeling when they leave the room? It's good to know and also scary, perhaps because of my lack of experinece.
I worried that disclosing my trainee status would make others feel less safe in talking about their experiences here. But I also can't help but try to help when there is something I think I can share, so I just couldn't resist. I suppose if I found a poster who made me wonder whether it was a client of mine, (what are the chances?), I likely would back off for awhile, to protect me and the client.
I would be open to hearing from others who might be bothered by me reading their posts. I know I would not be comfortable with my own therapist reading my posts here, although I'm not sure just why.
It's all so confusing. Someone wrote about doing something to shake up their therapist in another thread. I was thinking I would sit in his chair once instead of my usual spot and see how he reacted. Tee, hee. I'm sure that would confuse me more than him. He of course would have a wonderful and likely on target interpretation for it.
So anyway, thanks for the positives and thanks for all your wonderful posts.
g
Posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 20:43:50
In reply to Re: Where does working through get you????, posted by naiad on January 13, 2004, at 20:36:59
> I will make dinner for you anytime! We could talk about gardening!Sounds great! Maybe you could tell me if I need to worry that my bulbs seem to be coming up due to a short warm spell, and now are buried with snow.
Thanks for the positives,
g>
Posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 20:46:25
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? PANDABEAR, posted by Pandabear on January 13, 2004, at 20:38:56
> Thank you so much for what you have said, I did talk to my therapist yesterday and I was really glad that I opened up to her.
Good for you! Hope the meds increase will also help. Hang in there!
> there truely are some great people in this world.I agree, this board is a blessing.
g
Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 20:47:34
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 20:39:11
>
> Thanks! I certainly hope I would be someone people would love to have, but of course I wonder how my clients think about me outside of sessions.Well if this board hasn't taught you anything else, it's probably taught you that sometimes they'll think of you kindly, sometimes with anger, but mainly they'll think of you a whoooole lot! Some of them at least. And yes, your every movement and word will be scrutenized for possible meanings. Well, if you weren't scared before you are now, right? (grin)
I don't think I could possibly shake my therapist up. He doesn't have a "regular" chair. He lets the client choose. I've stamped my feet, sat on the floor by the window, and put my hands over my ears and refused to listed to what he said. rofl. He's relatively unflappable. Although he did ask me to please move away from the window because it was making him nervous until I explained I was trying to get over my nervousness with how high up his office was. Then he was ok with it.
Posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 20:48:11
In reply to Re: Is this Transference? » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 20:39:11
Posted by crushedout on January 13, 2004, at 21:05:37
In reply to Re: Where does working through get you????, posted by gardenergirl on January 13, 2004, at 20:12:20
> That is a good question. I can't say it's universally helpful, because I'm not sure that anything is. But I know that it can help take the intensity of the feelings down, or it can clarify confusion.
>
> Let's say jypothetically that someone has a mother transference, and wishes the therapist would take on the role of a good, nurturing, validating mother. This wish may lead to feelings of dependence and then frustration as the therapist doesn't meet their needs. Instead of being tossed between feeling attached and feeling let down (which may be similar to the person's feelings about their own mother), you could talk about it. Opening up this way may help with understanding another relationship which lets you down, or may help with recognition of why their feelings seem so confusing. Ideally, this working through would then lead to the person having a sense of more choices in behavior in response to triggers related to the ransference. You would be working from a more conscious place than if you never had the transference and working through.
>
> Does this make any sense? It definitely depends on how it is worked through. Just admitting a transference and having the T say, "oh, okay" and not processing it is not really helpful, IMO.Makes tons of sense. Problem is for me, my "transference" (and I have to admit, I don't think it's transference anymore than my love for my last girlfriend was "transference") doesn't remind me of my relationship with either parent in any way. It only reminds me of every time I've ever been in love. Except this time, it's more intense. Because this time, I think I've really found the right woman for me.
So I don't really see where this is going. And expressing my feelings for her to her hasn't made them decrease even slightly. Actually, they just keep intensifying. Maybe I just need to give it more time, but I honestly don't see happening what everyone says is supposed to happen. Although, despite this horribly painful unrequited (unrequitable?) love I'm experiencing, I'm making great progress in therapy and on myself. I can hardly believe it, it's so great.
But I'm hopelessly, desperately in love and I don't see me getting over that anytime soon.
Posted by crushedout on January 13, 2004, at 21:11:20
In reply to Re: Where does working through get you???? » crushedout, posted by Dinah on January 13, 2004, at 20:10:39
Dinah,I've read everything I can get my hands on, but I'm not sure which one you're talking about. (Do you remember? I'm always looking for more stuff to read.)
I read this highly theoretical, crazy-ass book called "Psychotherapy: An Erotic Relationship" (by David Mann) but that's about *countertransference*. Rather fascinating, I might add. The guy's really out there, admitting to fantasies of fornicating with his patients (both male and female) on the floor while they're talking to him. I was impressed by his honesty, but it could be kind of disturbing for some clients to read. (Personally, I was thrilled, hoping that all therapists had such fantasies, especially mine about me, but I'm a wacko.)
That's all a bit of a tangent. Pardon me.
crushed
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 13, 2004, at 21:24:26
In reply to Re: Where does working through get you???? » Dinah, posted by crushedout on January 13, 2004, at 21:11:20
> I read this highly theoretical, crazy-[*]ss book...
Sorry to be such a prude, but please don't use language that could offend others, thanks.
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
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