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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 0:54:48
How are things? Is therapy going any better? I hope your holiday is brightening up. And I hope your cookies turned out yummy. And the clothing was better than real life. Seems like male therapists aren't really snappy dressers, are they? Mine always has nice socks though...
Posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 11:00:35
In reply to Daisy. I miss you, posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 0:54:48
Good morning...thanks for thinking of me. :)
I have been lurking and reading, just not up to posting until this morning. Actually, things are looking up some - - Saturday was really really scary, but my hubby is now on the upswing and breathing better. Plus most of my shopping is done and even wrapped.
I was so upset Thur/Fri at my Therapist that I decided to try to put it away and was pretty sucessful at it, except at night. (2am is a lonely time, isn't it?) Yesterday when I saw him, I swear, up to the minute I sat down, I wasn't sure I was going to say anything about being angry. But I took a breath and just said, "I left here last time and realized 1/2-hour later that I was really angry and it is all out of proportion and confusing."
He told me he was really glad I told him and we talked about how we ended. He immediately saw the switch -- my needs to his and while he didn't apologize he certainly came close. I told him I had thoughts of quitting therapy or at least cutting back because I had become really confused as to what I thought he and therapy could do for me. So many things in my life just can't be fixed. And they are getting harder to cope with. And I feel hopeless much of the time and very alone. But that thinking about stopping therapy made me even sadder.
He didn't even dance around this one, he said "I think those are the defensive voices going off again and I think this is such a new experience of letting your needs out that when you do they are fragile and can easily be stomped on, like what happened on Thursday." I started to tear-up and he was just soothing and gentle...I did ask him if we could trade lives for awhile. He laughed.
The best thing he said was that he thought I was brave (gee, a compliment!) and that therapy has to be thought of as a spiral -- it often feels like starting over again and again, yet each time you progress further. And he told me he was not going anywhere, he was going to see me through all of this and that I would probably get mad at him again and we would just talk it out. And that trust for me would be a continual rechecking process and that he wasn't frustrated with that, it was part of my healing.
*sigh* It was a really good session. I was surprised at how active he was but I think he sensed that I needed to borrow some of his strength to quiet the other voices in my head. He still wants me to come in tomorrow.
Maybe I'll take him some of the Therapist cookies. He would probably laugh.
I've been following your thread (above). I'm sorry you were pushed so hard just before he left. But, good for you for working so hard at it! I'm not sure I read it right, he wants you to describe your dad (appearance?) or the describe the trauma? Maybe you could try writing it out first. That way you can start and stop.
Thanks for all your support and the laughs. I keep wondering what I would do if I hadn't found this site. I monitored another for awhile but it was so harsh it frightened me. People were actually attacking each other over their strategies to deal with issues. (shudder) I guess we should thank Dr. Bob and his team for keeping this site "civil".
Sorry this is so long...I'm just thinking out-loud with my fingers.
-D
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 11:42:18
In reply to I'm still here. (long) » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 11:00:35
It's ok that your post was long. Gives me something to do, other than what I actually need to do I guess :)
Well, he wanted me to describe my dad's appearance, as I don't actually remember the trauma in detail. I remember some instances, but nothing really indepth. Just a few occassions, but there's more to it than that. He just doesn't get that I don't want to freak out in his office. He tends to be dense like that... Anyhoo...It is so wonderful when they are soothing and gentle. Seems I can't remember the last time that happened with mine. Sure it was during our last session, but I'm mad at him, so I tend to forget the good things and just focus on the bad...
I'm SO proud of you for being honest with him about the situation. It let him know how that made you feel. Maybe it won't happen in the future, maybe it will. But, more importantly it led to a discussion of the cycle of therapy. I guess I never realized that we would get better, then regress back. I just thought that one day I would have an "Ah-ha" moment and everything would be all better. I know that isn't true, but I like to pretend. But, it makes sense that will progressing in certain areas, we'll still fall shy in others. As the hard things come out, it will cause us some anxiety. And it is important not to think we are getting worse. I guess it just boils down to trust. Trust in ourselves, as well as the therapist. And I'm not too keen on trust. :( But, I'm getting there :)
Give him the cookies, maybe it will give him a clue... about his wardrobe anyway.
I'm glad your husband is doing better. Please send my regards. My father had cancer before he died. My mother, who is a very strong woman, couldn't stand the thought of not being by his side. She cared for my father whe whole time he was ill. I admire her so much for that. I know I couldn't do it. I have so much admiration for people who can care for sick loved ones. I just know I'm not strong enough. I actually had to leave town. I was home the day he died. My mom needed help moving him and when we tried to move him he died. (This was before I realized anything I now remember from therapy... I guess this is why it is so tough to think of him in this "new light". My dad was my world growing up. Strange how things change, isn't it?)
Posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 13:41:23
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long) » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 11:42:18
I tend to think along the lines of "the past" vs. my current relationship. It is like they are two completely different people. For me, I've always known, just kept it buried because "It wasn't that bad and I got over it." I've NEVER talked about it, I hardly believe I've started now. Including posting here, though not in detail. As it unfolds though, I find I've repressed so much more than I thought. After any discussion that includes details I usually tail spin into feeling like a very young needy child -- and I hate that!
I'm getting better at anticipating this, however. One week was unbelievably hard, the first week I said most of it out loud. The day after that session, I called in a panic and my Therapist had me come back "just for support" and we basically just sat together. I just needed to know that he wasn't so horrified that he would stop seeing me, or that he wouldn't tell anyone else. (Ok, so it wasn't rational thought!) I had another session 2 days later and then a long phone consult the day after that one. I think you should just plan to have the support even if you "want" to fall apart at home instead of in his office.
I have a very complicated, stressful life (who doesn't?). We flip from dealing with all the current issues to talking about the impact of the past...and then back again. I get frustrated because I have enough to deal with without these pressing memories. In fact, I went into therapy to get help for stress and decreased coping skills. I had absolutely no intention of letting any of this out. Now, I keep wondering why I am torturing myself by delving into these memories but the truth is I don't have control of them. For whatever reason, "they" are asserting themselves now. I guess I *finally* have a safe place to deal with them.
I have a thought that is a little out there so feel free to ignore it but...
Can you compare and contrast your Therapist with your dad, here, in writing to me? It might be a way to start the description.
Posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 13:56:06
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long) » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 11:42:18
<<<(This was before I realized anything I now remember from therapy... I guess this is why it is so tough to think of him in this "new light". My dad was my world growing up. Strange how things change, isn't it?)
>>>Just remember that the "little" girl who loved her daddy is allowed to keep loving him. It is very hard not to let the bad stuff taint the good memories. That makes them no less good. You should not feel guilty for having them, for having loved your dad and for being sad about him being gone. It is probably even more complicated for you because you remember loving feelings for your dad and you can't actually access the feelings that go with the abuse you are starting to remember. So the two things, your intellect and your feelings, don't match. Your head says you should hate him, your heart says you love him. It will take time to integrate the two and yes, you can do both at the same time. You will probably begin to grieve the dad you thought you had and wonder if he even really loved you. While I can't say for sure, my guess is he did very much. You wouldn't have the good memories if he didn't. It is a struggle and a very long process.
Holidays are painful this way because everywhere we turn there are memory triggers. Be kind to yourself. I recommend peppermint mochas.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 14:44:59
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long) » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 13:41:23
"It wasn't that bad and I got over it."
Those are my thought precisely. I feel like everythign that I have gone through really isn't that bad. I'm holding up just fine. There's no need to talk about it and bring things up that just don't need to be brought up. Why cause myself undue stress when it just isn't necessary.
But, I realize.... Hey, maybe there is a reason I can't remember anything about my childhood (and I mean ANYTHING). And maybe there is a reason that I can't remember my own age. And maybe there is a reason that I can't love my boyfriend, even though I desperately want to... Do you see what I'm getting at. It has taken my therapist quite a bit of convincing, but he has (FINALLY) made me realize that holding this in and not talking about it is affecting me in other ways. I've known for a while that I've had to deal with things. I just thought it was my mother's abuse and my father's death. I didn't think it was this as well.
But, you know what? I didn't have to study nearly as hard for my finals :) And I remembered things that I needed to. That's all the proof I needed. And I'm 24 years old. And my boyfriend's birthday is August 26. These are things that 3 months ago I wouldn't have been able to tell you right off of the top of my head.It isn't selfish to want to get better. It isn't weak. And just because it "seems" like you made it through before, doesn't make it so. It is like being physically ill. If you get a cold and don't take time to rest and heal, then you may develope bronchitis. If you still don't rest, it could lead to phnemonia. Who knows where it could go from there.... And you can't tell me you are the very best person you could be if your mental health is suffering.
I have a friend who is constantly telling me I need to quit therapy and quit taking medication (I have Bipolar Disorder and take a mood stabilizer only, with no side effects). I used to be hurt by that remark. I was talking to a different friend about that comment and she helped put it into perspective. She told me that my other friend just has enough faith that I can do it myself. Man, I wish I had that kind of faith in myself. But, with all of the progress I've made at this point, I'm not quitting therapy. Not until I find answers. Not until I'm healed. Not until I come to terms with what happened and I'm satisfied. That doesn't mean that I want to know eveything that happened, far from it. I just want to know that I'mnot crazy. I just want to know that everything's ok. And I just want to be able to have some feeling again. That's all I want. Oh, and I want to stop grinding my teeth!!!!!The thing that bothers me though is the fact that I feel that my therapist isn't there for me. He's there during our session together. But, that's it. If I were to call him during a crisis, I would be needy (I too hate that). Maybe it has to do with feeling like a child. And as a child, our needs weren't met. And we assume they won't be met again. So, we've learned to ignore our own needs and focus on the needs of others. So, I don't call my therapist during a crisis. I did once. He wasn't receptive. I had a flashback and tried to get an earlier appointment. He didn't return my call. When I saw him that day he said, "I saw you called again." JERK!!!!
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 15:04:59
In reply to One more thing » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 13:56:06
Funny, I only have one picture of my dad. I just thought it was chance that I didn't keep anything. Guess not. Well, I decided to look at the picture. I didn't realize how much it would affect me. Seems my heart is beating faster than ever. But, I'm glad it is.... It shows I have something there. I feel like I'm going to cry. :) I need to anyway and Andy won't be home until 7 so I have plenty of time to cry and take a hot bath.
Dad Therapist
(generally)Good father Good father
dark hair light hair
dark eyes light eyes
short tall
absent during CH Absent b/t session
abusive nuturing
coffee addict no coffee
Posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 15:29:26
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long) » DaisyM, posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 14:44:59
Karen,
I can't imagine why he wouldn't call you back. THAT would hurt my feelings. Did you ask him and did he have an answer? I fight with myself about calling but everytime I have, he has called back, usually within a few hours. Only once did he say he didn't have time to talk to me at length, he had a client coming in but he wanted me to know that he would call me a little later or the next day (my choice) if I needed more time than his current few minutes. He tells me learning to reach out is part of my therapy. I, of course, worry about driving him crazy. I've written about this over and over again!
I'm glad you are committed to the therapy. I have to ask though, because you said you do this, are you focusing on what he can't/won't do, instead of on what he does/will do, to keep him at arms length? You really like what happens during therapy, this is huge. Maybe he can "fix" the other parts?
Posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 15:33:07
In reply to Dad v/s Therapist, posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 15:04:59
You are very brave...I didn't mean to set you off, especially when you are without support for a few weeks. I hope the cry helped. Now, tuck this away until the day before your next appointment and maybe we can add to it? It is a really good start.
FYI, I don't have very many pictures of mine with me -- wedding, grad, etc. I have tons of him and my kids. I never thought about it before.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 16:37:10
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long) » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 15:29:26
I don't know.. It's confusing to me really. Before we really started getting into the nightmares and flashbacks and just began recalling things I did remember, which are basically inappropriate touches and making me touch him he started with his crap about how when things started to get hard he would set up extra appointments, if I needed it. (As if telling him those things weren't hard enough!) Well, that started a flood of nightmares and then a flashback and he pushes me. I understand that. I asked for that. I wanted that. But, he doesn't seem to be particularly supportive. He's never once said, "If you need to call me you can." He's never once mentioned an extra appointment. And he knows that I work on this stuff at home. I just feel like maybe he's punishing me for not working on it there, with him. (Maybe some type of transference issues with my father) I just don't want to do it there. Since I don't find him particularly supportive, why would I think for a second that he would be able to calm me down during a crisis. And is he so dense that he wouldn't be able to see that???
I do have a few examples to prove my point. It's not that I'm being unfairly harsh towards him.
Over the summer, I tried to commit suicide. I called him the next day to try to schedule an appointment. The first thing he said was "Does this warrant an extra appointment?" Now, I've NEVER once tried to schedule an extra appointment. I'd been seeing him since February, so he should have known that I was not in the habit of scheduling extra appointments. And, I've never once since then tried to schedule an extra appointment. I think that's a lot of the reason why I don't ask for an extra appointment, even if I really think I need one. I work solely around his schedule. What is convinient for him. I wouldn't want to put him out again, with my minor annoyances. Then, when I went in to talk about it, he put me in the hospital. He didn't listen to me. He stuck me in the hospital. He admitted that he has never placed a patient in the hospital before. I just don't think he's good at dealing with a crisis. And I know I'm not.I didn't ask him why he didn't call me back. After that comment, I figured the best way to make him feel like a jerk was to tell him why I called. Now he does return my calls, but I don't call him during a crisis like that anymore. And I don't change (or attempt to change) my appointment times.
Maybe I do focus on what he won't do. But it just seems like there is so much there. I just feel like he's not very supportive. I'm opening up to him. Just because I don't give in to his every demand, doesn't mean he should punish me by withholding support. It's just not fair!
And I'm not keeping him at arms length. He's deciding to stay there. I can't do anything else to bring him closer. I've let him in on so many aspects of my life. What else can I do? I realize that I'm not always the Perfect Client (Heavens No!), but still.... I just don't feel like he's holding up his end of the bargain. And if I attempt to call himon it, I'm just being petty. I'm being childish. Worse yet, I'm being needy adn asking for things that I should be able to get on my own. I shouldn't need his support. He's a paid doctor. He's not my dad. I don't need his approval. I don't need his kind words. I don't need his advice. I don't need anything from him. I just want it. And I want him to realize it, without ME having to ask for it. SHEESH! He's a therapist. Shouldn't he know this? If he just offered extra visits and told me I could call, I wouldn't. It's just knowing I could that makes the difference.
Posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 17:21:07
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long), posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 16:37:10
>>>>>Worse yet, I'm being needy adn asking for things that I should be able to get on my own. I shouldn't need his support. He's a paid doctor. He's not my dad. I don't need his approval. I don't need his kind words. I don't need his advice. I don't need anything from him. I just want it. And I want him to realize it, without ME having to ask for it.
<<<Why should you be able to get these things on your own??? That is why you are in therapy. There are so many "I don't need..." in your post yet...maybe you do?! He isn't a mind reader, you have to ask. Plus, the sucky part of therapy is getting what we need (?) instead of what we might want.
Maybe you need someone to consult with around all of this? You said he is CBT, maybe you need some short term Psychotherapy. Gratification isn't what they do, but trauma work is pretty specific and you need someone who is able to handle a crisis.
That said, I think you really, really need to find a sweet spot about your Therapist while he is away. And think about that. We can make the bad loom large by giving it too much space and weight. I know I do that. We are so vulnerable to every little thing.
Put all of this away for now, don't work on it too much by yourself unless you are writing stuff to talk about later. Get support here. I'm worried about you.
Go make more cookies. I'm off to brave the mad house for the last of my shopping. Wish me luck!
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2003, at 17:53:23
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long), posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 16:37:10
> If he just offered extra visits and told me I could call, I wouldn't. It's just knowing I could that makes the difference.
That's the truth. That's why my therapist offers at the end of every session. Sigh. I'd say some nasty things about your therapist and last summer, but my therapist did more or less the same thing when I was suicidal post partum.
I've forgiven him, I guess. But just barely.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 18:26:25
In reply to Need vs. Want » Karen_kay, posted by DaisyM on December 23, 2003, at 17:21:07
Sorry. I'm in a foul mood. It happens to the best of us at times.
First of all, I hate making stupid cookies. I only made them because I knew he liked food and I thought they would be a gift he would accept. I don't make myself cookies very often, as they are a huge hassle, and they only make my arse larger. And I certainly don't need that...Now, I despise asking for anything. I seem to think that others should anticipate what I want or need. If they don't then I don't deserve or really need it. Now, if my OWN therapist doesn't pick up on the fact that I don't find him supportive enough, then there must be some reason. (I know, I look into things too much)
Your point about getting what we need, not what we want is exactly it. Maybe I don't need support. Maybe that is just it. Maybe he really is giving me all the support that I need and it just isn't enough for me, as it seems that nothing is ever enough for me.And I need this time to think about things. I told myself I would, as I so often avoid thinking about things. So, I have some time to myself. But, instead of thinking about what I need to I'm stuck thinking about my stupid therapist. Well, it is a start I guess.
But, I'm just angry right now. And confused. Don't worry about me. I think it is because I've been thinking too much today. I'll bounce back in the next few hours or days. And, I do have a sweet spot for my therapist. I posted about his fashion sense on the social board, so at least I'm able to contro the black and white thinking. He's not all bad. He's just stupid, but he's still nice looking and a snappy dresser :) And he is helping improve my life. And that is a definite plus...
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 18:46:32
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long) » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2003, at 17:53:23
Hi Dinah. It hurts when you only want someone to listen and they make hasty decisions. The sad part is that while I was in the hospital, I didn't receive any type of therapy. I was only in there for "my protection." And it cost me quite a bit of money. It was just a horrible experience, not to mention the feeling of betrayal I felt towards my therapist. I just wanted him to listen. He didn't even do that. He got on the phone and escourted me to the hospital. Well, I guess at least he took me to the hospital. But, I have forgiven him. Actually I tend to forget that it even happened, unless I'm angry with him. Then I remember it. It's just frustrating sometimes. I don't know how hard things are supposed to get before he will actually be there. But, I'm not good at letting him know precisely how I'm feeling either. He is a therapist. He is supposed to know how I'm feeling and how things are affecting me, even if I don't tell him, RIGHT?
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2003, at 19:22:55
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long) » Dinah, posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 18:46:32
> He is supposed to know how I'm feeling and how things are affecting me, even if I don't tell him, RIGHT?
>Mine didn't even escort me to the hospital. He just told me to go to the ER if I didn't think I could control the urges and was in danger. I of course didn't go. I can't think of a circumstance that I'd be that sure I was in danger.
If you are waiting for him to understand without your telling him, you'll be disappointed I'm afraid. I not only have to tell my therapist how I'm feeling and how things are affecting me, but explaining it to him feels like greco-roman wrestling. It's a constant battle to pin it down in words and then convey it to him in a way he can understand. Sigh. Sometimes it seems like more trouble than it's worth. But if I didn't struggle with it, he wouldn't have the slightest clue.
It's not just that he's from mars and I'm from venus. It's more like we're different species from different galaxies. I may be carbon based, but I'm pretty sure he's silicon based.
Sigh.
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 20:48:32
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long), posted by Dinah on December 23, 2003, at 19:22:55
greco-roman wrestling
For some odd reason, this brings visual images into my head. And I'm laughing hysterically! Thank you. I have a mental picture of what you and your therapist look like and I see you wrestling around! Now, I could have fun with this for quite a while....
The thing is, he knows that I am a human being. I've told him things that are rather traumatic. I'm having nightmares on a regular basis, and he knows this as I tell him (and they are graphic in nature and to the point that I can't sleep and always involve my father raping me). Yet, I continue to tell him, "Oh, other than that, I feel wonderful!" Now, he knows that I am very good at believing that if I pretend something doesn't exist I can make it go away. So, I go into great detail about my nightmares and flashbacks, yet I deny that it is causing me any anxiety in my life. And he doesn't press that issue. At the end of the session he does say "You're going a great job" and "I'm proud of you" but that just doesn't cut it... I don't know what I want. I just want to quit chewing gum all the time and using a pacifier (yes, I still use one). I want to unclench my jaw. And I want to quit smoking 2 packs of cigarettes a day. And I want to quit shaking. He knows this is causing me to have anxiety. I shouldn't have to tell him. I shouldn't deny it. I just hate asking for things. I hate being needy.
Posted by Dinah on December 23, 2003, at 20:59:40
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long), posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 20:48:32
He's probably buying your act of nonchalance. You need to be more open with him, because if he's anything like mine he's really dense and needs it spelled out. Or wrestled to the ground in a headlock. :)
I know it's hard, but you pay them so that you can be a bit needy with them. (OK, sometimes I'm a great pit of need, but still the idea remains the same). Things that probably wouldn't be wise with friends or maybe even family are ok with them. I even describe my therapist as the barrier between my "craziness" and my family. I am needy and whatever with him, so that I am a relatively good mom and an at least almost ok wife.
(And about the pacifiers, do the baby ones work? I tried that myself a few years back, and didn't have any luck *at all*. They seemed way too small.)
Posted by Karen_kay on December 23, 2003, at 22:08:47
In reply to Re: I'm still here. (long) » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on December 23, 2003, at 20:59:40
Or wrestled to the ground in a headlock
<<Again with the wrestling? What is that? The image is back in my head, only this time with a noogie (is that the correct spelling for that??).He's probably buying your act of nonchalance. You need to be more open with him, because if he's anything like mine he's really dense and needs it spelled out
<<The thing is, he knows that I hide behind my act of appearances. If I pretend everything is OK, then it is. I've talked with him before and even asked several times during conversation if I still have anxiety to which he nods his head yes. He knows that I am going through a rough time. He knew when I had my first flashback I was suffering dearly, and he didn't offer any extra support. Maybe I'll try the headlock thing. I've asked him about inappropriate behavior before to which he replied, "If you sit on my lap and pat my head, that would be inappropriate." He didn'ta say anything about a headlock!
I just DESPISE being needy and clingy and the sort. I hate admitting that I need help. That I can't handle something on my own.
And I'm afraid that he'll get tired of me. Also, I don't know if I'm progressing far enough to warrant extra sessions. If I was, wouldn't HE suggest it? He's the expert, I'm not.The pacifier works for me. Sometimes I have to stick the whole blasted thing in my mouth, but it does the trick. I've grown quite accustomed to it however. I've been using it for over a year. Since my dentist noticed my teeth were grinding down. :( And, i do on occassion suck my thumb too. Mostly at night though. It really is horrible when my nieces try to take my nook as their own adn I fight with them. I feel evil, but hey, they can get their own!
This is the end of the thread.
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