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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by heather66 on September 5, 2003, at 15:12:45
In reply to Re: My friend is dead! » Dena, posted by heather66 on September 5, 2003, at 15:04:57
Sebastian-
I don't trust anybody either and right now I agree with you that life sucks.I also was intrigued by your comment: "Why don't I just get over this and live a nomal life again? I want to so bad! "
I think that if someone desires something badly enough then they can make it happen. For example, I want to stop this depression that I have VERY BADLY. As much as you want to "live a normal life again." I feel like it can be willed - if I want it bad enough. But the truth is, I have willed it for almost four years and NOTHING has changed. So the more I will it, and the more nothing happens, the more I feel like a failure. It is an endless cycle.
I hope some others out there can offer advice.
Posted by Dena on September 5, 2003, at 18:39:49
In reply to Re: My friend is dead! » Dena, posted by heather66 on September 5, 2003, at 15:04:57
Dear Heather -
Yes, I have experienced loss. Three weeks ago, I miscarried my baby, very unexpectedly. (the "story" of my miscarriage can be found in Psycho Babble Faith: The past four weeks: good bad news Dena 8/13/03)
Some say, "Well, you didn't even know your baby, hadn't seen or held him, so it wasn't really a loss - besides, something was wrong with 'it' so you should be glad your body got rid of 'it'." (yes, I've actually been told that) So, part of me hesitates to compare it with the grief of others who have lost a spouse, friend, parent, child, someone they knew, held, spoke to...
And yet, I did feel, am feeling, genuine grief. I wanted & loved this baby very much. I believe in the sanctity of life from the moment of conception until natural death, & I already "knew" this child - he was & is real to me. A tiny little body, yes, but a full-sized soul.
I know grief can't be measured, it's not tangible, & it can't be compared against the grief of another. But, once experienced, the eyes & the heart of the griever become opened to the suffering of others.
Maybe you're wondering why I feel able/ready to offer comfort to others when it's been "only three weeks". I certainly thought I'd be grieving (in the wrenching pain stage) for a lot longer.I think in some way, I was prepared for my loss. I have seven children (besides the baby I lost), & the odds just go up that something bad will happen to one of them during their lifetime. I believe in God, & I asked Him long ago to prepare me for whatever I'd have to face in the future.
When I started to miscarry (but wasn't sure it was happening yet), I prayed for strength. When I was told that my baby was dead (& had been for two weeks), I felt as if I'd been punched in the stomach. I went numb. Shock, I suppose. Then I had to go through the motions of calling my husband from the waiting room (full of happy people) on my cell phone - he was stuck across the country on a business trip. Later, while I was being held by friends at church, I fell apart & grieved like I'd never known I could. It went deep, & brought up old, unresolved wounds from the past with it.
I heard a teaching once on grief from the ancient Jewish perspective. The Jewish people are very "whole person" oriented - they don't separate mind/heart/soul/emotions, etc. When they feel, it's with the whole person. So, when they grieve, they go all out. They even hire professional mourners to help them to really vent their grief. They believe (& psychology has proven it to be true) that if a grieving person lets go of their grief, & completely gives it freedom of expression (wailing, sobbing, pulling their hair, ripping their clothes, very dramatic), then their grieving will be short-lived. And, on the other hand, when a grieving person becomes stoic, shoving their grief down inside (maybe because no one will help them grieve), or tries to postpone their grief, the grief internalizes... it almost festers like an infection, & it poisons the whole person, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, sometimes even physically.
So, after my miscarriage, my priest reminded me of this lesson, & he prayed that my grief would be deep, thorough & brief.
And that's what happened to me. I grieved like a dying animal (not so much that I made myself do anything, as I just gave myself complete permission to fall apart). It helped that I was with people who loved me, people I trusted to be with me while I was so vulnerable. Whenever I tried to shut down, they encouraged me to focus on my pain.
For the next week, I was on a sort of auto-pilot. I just did what I had to do (having 7 children to care for while one's husband is away doesn't leave much time to curl up in a ball). I sensed that I was being carried through the process of grieving. Because of my faith in God, I turned to Him for comfort (as well as to the other people in my church). Learning I could really trust Him when I needed to caused my faith in Him to grow.
You asked about medication. I've been on lexapro for a few months (before that I've been on celexa & paxil since I had post-partum depression after the birth of my 4th baby 7 years ago). I don't know how much effect it had on my grief, because I was certainly able to mourn, & then to let go. I'm still sad, but the pain has passed. There's a huge difference.
I'm not currently in counseling, but it helped tremendously to meet with my internist. Rather than examine me, we talked & prayed for an hour and a half (he shares my faith). I was feeling guilt because of having used some dangerous chemicals during my pregnancy without proper precautions (I'm an artist), & he helped me to resolve that. It was so healing to have someone really empathasize with me, really understand what I felt & thought, & to assure me that all the "crazy thinking" was perfectually natural. I can't stress enough the release I felt in being loved by others who let me feel & express my pain.
My husband was away while this was happening (he was able to come home four days after the miscarriage) & that was very hard on us both. In fact, he hasn't yet been able to grieve - I've noticed that he's become extremely irritable & explosive with anger since we lost the baby (grief turned sideways?).
When I was a young adult (I'm "only" 41 now), I experienced several back to back tragedies. I lost my favorite aunt, my grandfather, my boyfriend, my best friend & my dog (!) within a short period of time. I didn't know God then, didn't have any sort of relationship with Him & didn't know how to turn to Him. I internalized my grief - I never mourned. Is it just a coincidence that I spent the next 21 years battling with severe bulimia? Did I purge over & over in an attempt to get my grief out?
I don't have a formula, per se, but I can tell you firsthand the stark difference between trying to grieve on my own & grieving with the support of my God, my family & my friends.
I recently heard that grief is the only emotion which, when released, heals all other emotions. It sounds true to me.
I wish you peace, & release from your pain!
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Sebastian on September 5, 2003, at 21:00:26
In reply to Re: My friend is dead! » Sebastian, posted by Dena on September 5, 2003, at 10:57:09
My friend was standing on the top of an oil tank when it exploded. I was standing next to it. 5 years later he died. Thats 2 years ago now. I was in shock about it all. 2 years ago I walked around wanting to cry all the time but I couldn't understand why?! I started to find that anoying. I live some 2000 or so miles from where this all happend now, been gone from there since a year after. I guess I haven't been able to deal with this I treat it as a problem that won't go away! I was never able to talk to anyone about it. My friends all left me alone I stayed in, major psychoses so I wasn't even able to speak for years, then it was all a thing of the past no one around me was even from the same country. I made an attempt to go back. Called all the people who were there, they wouldn't get on the phone or even come see me and talk about it. To this very day I don't know why that oil tank blew up, I know someone knows... Why don't they tell me?!!! Maybe then I could move on.??? Maybe we all could be freinds again?????? My life is nothing since this happened, I hate life! Some times I wish I were dead
Posted by Sebastian on September 5, 2003, at 21:48:05
In reply to Re: My friend is dead! » Sebastian, posted by Dena on September 5, 2003, at 10:57:09
The worst part of all this. The guy who died was not even a very good freind of mine, I didn't know him well. He was freinds with a group of people who didn't like me, sort of like he was from their area. I actulay was freind with them for a breif moment, but I couldn't handle their drugs (I guess thats the reason) and we never made good freinds. In fact they started picking fights with me, I got in good with a group of guys from my part of town. A lot of fight began. First I was sucker punched. Then we went over to his house threatening him. There was a big fight later on when I wasn't around that day. My freinds won of course. His father meet privatly to settle this. I partyed hard for about 1.5 years, only hanging with these guys. I was selling at the time and was introduced to a client that was freinds with the other croud, unpronounced. He was a very good customer. One night he picked me up after work. The dead guy was drinking and I belive on acid, the other guy was sober looking and drove me down to the oil feilds, the only thing they told me that night was they had something to show me????????????????????Why! Repeatedly I asked what it was?? No answer!!!!I was fully sober after work, and suspicious. Suddenly they pulled up to the tank. Jumped out of the truck and ran to the tank, went around the side and up the stairs. I stoped at the bottom! Asked the guy standing there. Arn't you coming? My feet are too short. So I stoped and stood on the side of him away from the tank. Looked out at the harbour. Didn't talk much. Looked up the 2 were at the top. Looked back at the habour, BOOM. I was standind about 10-20 feet away. Ran for my life my ear rang, could feel the heat on my back, wondered if my jacket was melting? Got a good distance away stopped and looked back, heard his screems, watch him run down the stairs on fire, I looked at the other guy standing next to me, he was holding his hand up to the side of his face looking down shaking and saying something. I shook saw a car drive off fast, (she took him to the hospital after dousing him in the streem), the car passed a police car, which drove at me. I was questioned and sat in the back of the car till 4am. The whole time the other guy wanted to smoke a joint in the back of the police car. 4am we sat in the streew and got high, no words said, just smoked and went home, never saw him after that. The second guy was only hospitalized for a few weeks. I saw him in the hospital and he wouldn't talk, his dad said "He doesn't remember anything" , this is right after he was getting ready to tell a big exciting story?!????.?.?... Never saw him again either. Never even could get him on the phone. Always out. Or moved, when I was in town. The dead guy was on life support 5 years in a coma with 2nd and 3rd degree burns. The girl who drove to the hospital I never spoke to that night or ever after. The only time I was able to talk to anyone about this was right after, the freinds who didn't like me, invited me to a party to talk................................For 7 years now my life has dramaticaly changed, I lived in fear for years, I just don't care anymore.
Posted by Sebastian on September 5, 2003, at 21:55:26
In reply to Re: My friend is dead! » Sebastian, posted by Dena on September 5, 2003, at 10:57:09
I haven't been able to get councling for the specifics of the events that happend. I don't want to talk to anyone about it. Doctor just gave me medicine and looked at me sit there, ECT every day for awhile, mind was blank. More likely my councling never works. Just meds for 6 years now. cognitive therapy never did any thing for me. All I want to do is make a movie or something about this, tell the world I guess. One of my psychotic breaks included me thinking I was a star. Years later I wanted to write a movie script, but never had a happy ending ...
Posted by Sebastian on September 5, 2003, at 22:09:15
In reply to Re: My friend is dead! » Sebastian, posted by Dena on September 5, 2003, at 10:57:09
Boy this is a major weight off my sholders!!!
He was actualy my supplyer. Big name, in town. Brother was a well known murderer. People feared the whole family. He was shot in the head by his brother, one year after I left town, atleast I never heard about it till I got back.
I'm a mess arn't I ?!???
Posted by Heather66 on September 6, 2003, at 0:13:15
In reply to Re: My 2nd friend is dead! » Dena, posted by Sebastian on September 5, 2003, at 22:09:15
Sabastian - you say you don't have anyone to talk to about this - but this is a good place. It is a terrible story.
And Dena... I appreciate your thoughts and your story. especially "...when a grieving person becomes stoic, shoving their grief down inside, or tries to postpone their grief, the grief internalizes... it almost festers like an infection, & it poisons the whole person, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, sometimes even physically."
Maybe that is true, but some of us are not so lucky to have family and friends to trust ... or even God to count on like you... You are lucky.
Posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2003, at 9:35:40
In reply to Re: My 2nd friend is dead!, posted by Heather66 on September 6, 2003, at 0:13:15
I don't even think I know how to deal with this? Talk about it, etc...
Posted by Dena on September 6, 2003, at 10:11:35
In reply to Re: Friends dead! » Heather66, posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2003, at 9:35:40
Dear Sebastian -
Thank you for trusting us enough to share your tragic story. That was a lot for you to live through. Anyone who experienced what you experienced would be just as devastated.
It does sound like the makings of a movie - except for you it was terribly real.
I'm so sorry that you haven't had anyone to turn to. It's so hard when you still have so many questions about what happened, & why they even wanted you there in the first place.
Are you still involved in the same lifestyle as when this happened? I guess you know first-hand just how much danger is involved when minds are altered by drugs, greed & violence. I hope you're able to live more safely now.
Have you ever heard of post-traumatic stress disorder? The psychological community discovered that after the Viet-Nam war, the soldiers still lived in the terror & grief of it, long after the danger was over. I'm not familiar with the specific treatment for it, but it sounds to me as if you're still suffering from this trauma as if it just happened last week (it's not your fault, it's just the way our minds deal with things that are too overwhelming to handle). Maybe you could find someone who specializes in this type of therapy?
I hope that just sharing your story brings you some measure of relief & peace. Do you mind if I continue to pray for you?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dena on September 6, 2003, at 10:49:12
In reply to Re: My 2nd friend is dead!, posted by Heather66 on September 6, 2003, at 0:13:15
Dear Heather:
You wrote: "Maybe that is true, but some of us are not so lucky to have family and friends to trust ... or even God to count on like you... You are lucky."Yes, I can't imagine what it must be like to grieve without the help of family & friends. Are you alone? Would you be willing to share your own story with us?
I don't really consider myself lucky... blessed, yes. I've been blessed with a supportive family & a community of faith who truly love each other with their actions as well as their words.
But God is available to anyone who needs Him (& who doesn't need Him?). He's always faithful, even when we're not.
"The LORD is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit." (Psalm 34:18)
"He heals the brokenhearted and binds up their wounds." (Psalm 147:3)
"God is our refuge and strength, an ever-present help in time of need." (Psalm 46:1)
Perhaps this should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Faith, but these verses are specifically directed to those who are grieving or suffering. A genuine, sincere cry of "Oh God, if you're there, help me!" can be all it takes to begin the process of letting Him heal you. It just takes a step of faith in His direction. If we wait for Him to prove Himself to us without exercizing faith, He'll be a gentleman & keep His distance. He doesn't invade where He isn't wanted.
My heart goes out to those who suffer without Him, & with the others He provides for help. We weren't meant to be alone - we're meant to be connected.
Do you think sharing your story would be healing for you?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2003, at 15:42:22
In reply to Re: Friends dead! » Sebastian, posted by Dena on September 6, 2003, at 10:11:35
Yes I have been diagnosed with PTSD. No I don't live that life style anymore. Have a full time real job, no drugs in 2 years now, finished collage. I'm looking into group psychotherapy, I work with a bunch of Vets, and I'm trying to get it all out in the open on this sight, since attempts else where have always failed of turned people away. Think I should make a movie about it? No one belives I can remember all this like it was yesterday but I have a photographic memory, my doc even tells me when I bring it up; you can remember that, it was so long ago, the mind distorts these things after a while. I had problems with flash-backs in the past. Very vivid memories and sounds. I would love to keep talking about this if anyone is willing to listen, most people don't even want to hear it. I gave up the illegal life and heavy drinking 2 years ago, I still smoke(cig), and take a heavy dose of anti-depressants. Small bit anti-psychotic. Its like everyone wants to forget about it, but I can't. I worry a lot about safety. The problem with PTSD is that it is different kind for me than with people from the war. I haven't realy met anyone in the same shoes as me? I'm not deaply religous but you can pray if you want. Do these vets ever get over it all, more than long after?
Sebastian
Posted by Sebastian on September 9, 2003, at 22:35:00
In reply to Re: Friends dead! » Dena, posted by Sebastian on September 6, 2003, at 15:42:22
How do you get rid of all the anger and resentment.
Sebastian
Posted by Dena on September 10, 2003, at 14:04:19
In reply to Re: Friends dead!, posted by Sebastian on September 9, 2003, at 22:35:00
Dear Sebastian -
The only thing I can give you is the best thing in the world: The love of God.
Don't write it off. Even if you've "tried God" before & it "didn't work", He is still & always will be the only source of comfort, truth & life. When it "doesn't work", that doesn't mean He isn't real, or good; it means that something is blocking us from Him (like unconfessed wrongs, bitterness against someone, untrust...).
I know this about anger - anger is a secondary emotion - that means that another, deeper emotion is behind the anger, & we use the anger to cover up what we're unable to face (usually some sort of fear is behind the anger). When I'm controlled by anger, I confess it to God - I tell Him everything, how I was hurt, how it's not fair, how I want to attack back, how it hurts, how I feel victimized. Then I leave it with Him. I ask Him directly to deal with it for me, & to show me what's behind the anger. For me, it's usually fear (like fear that I'll be hurt again, or fear that I'll be alone, or fear of not being protected...).
God is perfect love. The Bible tells us that "perfect love casts out fear".
I mean, when I'm angry & resentful, I've got two choices: to nurse that anger & let it grow & fester & turn me into a bitter person; or to turn the anger over to God & let Him have His way with me (& He is always faithful, unlike people).
This is my best answer. I hope you won't reject the idea without at least trying it. May you come to truly know Him & His peace for you.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Sebastian on September 13, 2003, at 18:28:48
In reply to My friend is dead!, posted by Sebastian on September 4, 2003, at 22:28:29
"I wish he would just die". Thats what I said a few years ago when he was in hospital. I wanted to end his pain and my turmoil. I feel selfish for saying that. I don't remember telling anyone, maybe myself?
Posted by Sebastian on September 16, 2003, at 20:47:14
In reply to Re: My friend is dead! » Sebastian, posted by Sebastian on September 13, 2003, at 18:28:48
Know why I think this thing has affected me so bad. Because there never was a police investigation into the cause of the accident (I hate using this word because I don't even know if it was an accident) and I just don't know why this happened.
Posted by Dena on September 17, 2003, at 6:54:16
In reply to Re: My friend is dead!, posted by Sebastian on September 16, 2003, at 20:47:14
Dear Sebastian -
I know that you're truly in pain with this tragedy. You've carried it within you for so long now, & it continues to eat away at you.
Perhaps it would be helpful to find someone professional who works with PTSD, someone who can help you work through the impact that this event has had on your life.
It may be time to just work through it & to let it go. You may never find the answers you seek. You have sacrificed enough of your life already to this tragedy.
Put all this energy into finding someone who can really help you, & take your life back! You deserve to truly live, rather than just exist.
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Sebastian on September 19, 2003, at 18:56:37
In reply to Re: My friend is dead! » Sebastian, posted by Dena on September 17, 2003, at 6:54:16
The other thing I don't understand is the illness that this/these death/s have caused. I've been ill, very ill, for 8 years now. I think it has finaly peaked but still bad. I droped out of college when I was on the honor roll because I wouldn't go to class all of a sudden. This is when the anxiety and psychosis began. Shortly after I spent in total about 1/2 year in the mental hospital, 1/2 year in the house. Later I would go through 2 more intervals of staying in the house with shere anxiety and nurotic behavior. Why did I do these things to myself? I can't live anymore without medicine; 7 years of the stuff; and I'm still sick. Everyone who suffers a death and witnessing of such an event surly doesn't go through this much remorce? do they? How long will I be sick, the rest of my life?
Sebastian
Posted by Dena on September 19, 2003, at 19:12:21
In reply to Re: Understanding illness, posted by Sebastian on September 19, 2003, at 18:56:37
Sebastian -
Try this link: "WebMD with AOL Health - Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder -- Topic Overview"
If this doesn't link through, try to cut & paste:
http://aolsvc.health.webmd.aol.com/content/healthwise/47/11709.ht
Hope it helps -
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Sebastian on September 20, 2003, at 18:43:39
In reply to Re: Understanding illness » Sebastian, posted by Dena on September 19, 2003, at 19:12:21
Belive it or not I have recived counceling for PTSD. It's the first type of councel I recived shortly after the explosion. Psychologist talked about the events and took me over to the explosion site. I had 6 sessions (I belive it was), thought I was fine, went on with life. 1 year later I went into major psychosis, beyond the grasp of councle. In other words they forced medicine and ECT into me untill my brain was mush. I've had tens of diagnoses and no one could explain what was going on with me. Counceling was not working so for 6 years I forcefully take meds.
I don't understand, the site says recive councel right away and you will have accute PTSD, I did, then later had chronic PTSD (I asume).
Sebastian
Posted by Dena on September 20, 2003, at 18:53:30
In reply to Re: Understanding illness » Dena, posted by Sebastian on September 20, 2003, at 18:43:39
I'm so sorry, Sebastian. I just wish I could offer some help, & I didn't know you've already been through all sorts of efforts. I didn't mean to be insensitive. I know how it feels to search for help in all the places that are available, & yet still no relief comes. I was bulimic for 21 years, & I went to 5 30-day treatment centers, 18 therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists, pastors, lcsw's, physicians, etc. Lots of medication. Lots of counselling. Lots of prayer. No one knew how to help me. No one. I was ready to quit & just resign myself to existing rather than really living. Then I found a woman who specialized in a type of prayer that got back to the "root" of the problem. Within 3 weeks, I was completely healed. That was three years ago, & I haven't had even a temptation, much less a replapse. I was a raging bulimic, beyond cure. Now I'm free from that enslavement.
Praise God!
Again, I'm sorry for suggesting something that you've already tried...
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Sebastian on September 20, 2003, at 19:06:22
In reply to Re: Understanding illness » Sebastian, posted by Dena on September 20, 2003, at 18:53:30
Unfortuanaly I have tried the religious route also. No good. Probably because of my very unreligious veiws throughout my life. I had tried to invent a religion, later I thought it was evil and destroyed the dead animal skin that I was supposed to worship; sick or what(this was during one of my psychotic episodes). I even tried going to church with my girlfriend later, even though I'm quaker by right of parents.
So yes, I give up.
Sebastian
Posted by Dena on September 20, 2003, at 21:13:51
In reply to Re: Understanding illness » Dena, posted by Sebastian on September 20, 2003, at 19:06:22
Dear Sebastian -
Trying religion & trying God are two different things.
Before you give up entirely, check this out:
"Theophostic Ministries' Home Page"
Read the testimonies, especially those by clients.
May God draw you to Himself & healing!
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dena on September 20, 2003, at 21:16:22
In reply to Re: Understanding illness » Sebastian, posted by Dena on September 20, 2003, at 21:13:51
Sebastian -
I noticed that the link didn't work (I just don't understand how to link other web sites!)
Cut & paste: http://www.theophostic.com/
Or just search theophostic.com
Hope it helps...
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Sebastian on April 18, 2004, at 18:04:09
In reply to Re: Understanding illness - OOPS!, posted by Dena on September 20, 2003, at 21:16:22
What I realy want is an appologie from the people who beat me up and said that I tried to kill him....
Then an appologie from all the other people who beat me up in all the years befor that. Starting at about 2.
I get so mad some times and just want to go out and beat people up at random. Or beat up the house. Or what ever I can.
Posted by Sebastian on April 18, 2004, at 18:18:56
In reply to Re: Understanding illness - Appologie?, posted by Sebastian on April 18, 2004, at 18:04:09
sorry about the re:, didn't look like it was right.
> What I realy want is an appologie from the people who beat me up and said that I tried to kill him....
>
> Then an appologie from all the other people who beat me up in all the years befor that. Starting at about 2.
>
> I get so mad some times and just want to go out and beat people up at random. Or beat up the house. Or what ever I can.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Grief | Extras | FAQ
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