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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 21 of 21. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 20, 2010, at 15:28:00
Hi everyone,
Any opinions on which are the best supplements/herbs/vitamins for improving energy levels and motivation? Any experiences very welcome.
Posted by sigismund on March 21, 2010, at 5:02:56
In reply to Supplements for energy/motivation, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 20, 2010, at 15:28:00
Wellll.....
Rhodiola (OK but since it lasts too long it wrecks my sleep)
Withania (Actually works, but you need a good brand), which for me was
http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00888/Optimized-Ashwagandha-Extract-stimulant-free.html
and it didn't wreck my sleep.Cordyceps (Increases something or other, maybe SOD, and wrecked my sleep)
Withania is interesting.
Posted by Lao Tzu on March 21, 2010, at 11:22:13
In reply to Supplements for energy/motivation, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 20, 2010, at 15:28:00
I have some ideas. Zinc picolinate (varies according to individual need), manganese (10mg per day), magnesium (varies according to need), P5P (coenzyme form of B6, 50mg per day), alpha lipoic acid ( 50mg per day for about 1-2 weeks, then 25mg every other day from that point on. You don't need massive doses of lipoic acid for it to be effective), vitamin B1 (100-200mg per day). Usually a cocktail of vitamins and minerals will help with energy rather than say just one or two vitamins. It all depends on what your nutritional needs are. B12 can also give you energy if you take enough of it. I also take a little vitamin E, say 100-200IU, with about 250mg of vitamin C. These two together can also help with energy, but be careful not to take massive doses of either E or C. Again, erring on the side of less may work better as far as energy is concerned. Too much E or C can work against you for energy. It all depends on what makes you feel comfortable. Another thing, it may take a little while to see improvements in energy when taking a cocktail of vitamins and minerals. Patience is required. However, if you are deficient in any of the B vitamins, taking the ones you need will probably result in increased energy the day you start taking them. For example, I am deficient in B1 and P5P, and both of these help me with energy. Like I said, it all depends on your individual nutrient requirements. Some say Niacin helps with energy and also vitamin B2 (Riboflavin). However, for me, I don't take niacin because of side effects and I only take Riboflavin sparingly. My biggest deficiencies are B1 and B6 (P5P).
Posted by Lao Tzu on March 21, 2010, at 11:43:28
In reply to Supplements for energy/motivation, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 20, 2010, at 15:28:00
Another thing that may help. A tiny amount of fish oil and borage oil over time may help with your energy levels. For me, I take 1,500mg of fish oil and 1,300mg of borage oil everyday. In addition to helping with depression, these fatty acids may help with your energy levels, but use with caution because if you take too high a dose of either fish or borage oil, they can work against your energy levels. I only take three 500mg fish oil capsules and one 1,300mg borage oil capsule. This is all my body needs to stay healthy mentally.
Posted by Lao Tzu on March 21, 2010, at 11:50:58
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation, posted by sigismund on March 21, 2010, at 5:02:56
I've never tried Rhodiola, but I have heard good things about it. I have heard that too high a dose causes insomnia. There are some different herbs out there, like ginseng, that may help with energy, but I like to stick to a cocktail of vitamins and minerals because these substances are what your body needs and uses all of the time. Some amino acids might help with energy if you are deficient in them. You'd probably have to be tested for amino acid levels to know which ones would help. Tyrosine and phenylalanine are two that might help with energy, but it's hit or miss. In some people they work great, in others they may work for a little while then "poop out" and you're back to square one. For me, I never did well on amino acids, so I just leave them out of my nutritional regimen.
Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 21, 2010, at 14:59:43
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation, posted by Lao Tzu on March 21, 2010, at 11:50:58
> I've never tried Rhodiola, but I have heard good things about it. I have heard that too high a dose causes insomnia. There are some different herbs out there, like ginseng, that may help with energy, but I like to stick to a cocktail of vitamins and minerals because these substances are what your body needs and uses all of the time. Some amino acids might help with energy if you are deficient in them. You'd probably have to be tested for amino acid levels to know which ones would help. Tyrosine and phenylalanine are two that might help with energy, but it's hit or miss. In some people they work great, in others they may work for a little while then "poop out" and you're back to square one. For me, I never did well on amino acids, so I just leave them out of my nutritional regimen.
Thanks Lao,
I was thinking of taking fish oil + a multivitamin + Rhodiola. What do you think?
Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 21, 2010, at 15:02:40
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation, posted by sigismund on March 21, 2010, at 5:02:56
Hi Sigi,
I was thinking that Rhodiola might help. I don't normally have trouble sleeping. Is Rhodiola easier to obtain than the others?
> Wellll.....
>
> Rhodiola (OK but since it lasts too long it wrecks my sleep)
>
> Withania (Actually works, but you need a good brand), which for me was
> http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00888/Optimized-Ashwagandha-Extract-stimulant-free.html
> and it didn't wreck my sleep.
>
> Cordyceps (Increases something or other, maybe SOD, and wrecked my sleep)
>
> Withania is interesting.
Posted by sigismund on March 22, 2010, at 1:16:19
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » sigismund, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 21, 2010, at 15:02:40
For someone on SSRIs, rhodiola might provide a balancing effect because the action is so different. Definitely worth a try. If you find your sleep disturbed, take it the very first thing and reduce your dose until it is OK.
All are easy to obtain. All feel somewhat dopaminergic.
> Hi Sigi,
>
> I was thinking that Rhodiola might help. I don't normally have trouble sleeping. Is Rhodiola easier to obtain than the others?
>
>
>
> > Wellll.....
> >
> > Rhodiola (OK but since it lasts too long it wrecks my sleep)
> >
> > Withania (Actually works, but you need a good brand), which for me was
> > http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00888/Optimized-Ashwagandha-Extract-stimulant-free.html
> > and it didn't wreck my sleep.
> >
> > Cordyceps (Increases something or other, maybe SOD, and wrecked my sleep)
> >
> > Withania is interesting.
>
>
Posted by Lao Tzu on March 22, 2010, at 14:27:02
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » Lao Tzu, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 21, 2010, at 14:59:43
Do what's best for you, whatever makes you feel more energetic. I can't say if fish oil + multivitamin + Rhodiola is the magic formula for you. It sounds simple enough and probably will help with energy. If you take fish oil, start off with a low dosage. A high dosage may work against your pursuit for more energy. I know it does for me. Remember Vitamin B1 also. That's an important one. I take 100mg twice a day. Good luck!!!
Posted by ed_uk2010 on March 22, 2010, at 15:47:51
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » ed_uk2010, posted by sigismund on March 22, 2010, at 1:16:19
Thanks, I'm going to take a trip to the Health Food Store.
> For someone on SSRIs, rhodiola might provide a balancing effect because the action is so different. Definitely worth a try. If you find your sleep disturbed, take it the very first thing and reduce your dose until it is OK.
>
> All are easy to obtain. All feel somewhat dopaminergic.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Hi Sigi,
> >
> > I was thinking that Rhodiola might help. I don't normally have trouble sleeping. Is Rhodiola easier to obtain than the others?
> >
> >
> >
> > > Wellll.....
> > >
> > > Rhodiola (OK but since it lasts too long it wrecks my sleep)
> > >
> > > Withania (Actually works, but you need a good brand), which for me was
> > > http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item00888/Optimized-Ashwagandha-Extract-stimulant-free.html
> > > and it didn't wreck my sleep.
> > >
> > > Cordyceps (Increases something or other, maybe SOD, and wrecked my sleep)
> > >
> > > Withania is interesting.
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by morganator on March 22, 2010, at 22:56:54
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » Lao Tzu, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 21, 2010, at 14:59:43
Everyone should be taking fish oil
Posted by morganator on March 22, 2010, at 23:06:27
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » sigismund, posted by ed_uk2010 on March 21, 2010, at 15:02:40
There are several brands that may produce better results than others. I had good luck with New Chapter's Rhodiola.
I would do a search over at Imminst.org to find out about Rhodiola brands and other supplements for energy/motivation.
Also, you may want to consider Acetyl L Carnitine or Acetyl L Carnitine Arginate(some believe this is the better form)
Some people love Piracetam, may also be worth looking into.
Posted by janejane on March 23, 2010, at 12:06:32
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » ed_uk2010, posted by morganator on March 22, 2010, at 22:56:54
> Everyone should be taking fish oil
I'm not sure I agree with that generalization. Just one geltab per day made me anxious and gave me oily skin and zits (these SEs didn't seem to subside over time, and I couldn't even tolerate every other day).
I do take a combo fatty acid formula when I have menstrual cramps, though. It contains a little fish oil, plus flax and borage. I can handle that. I have come across instances of fish oil not agreeing with people too (check the babble archives). I do think it's something all depressives should try though. I wish it worked for me.
Posted by morganator on March 23, 2010, at 15:39:06
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » morganator, posted by janejane on March 23, 2010, at 12:06:32
I hear ya. Did you try other fish oil supplements? What about ones with higher DHA like Cod liver oil?
I guess some people may not respond well to marine EFAs. In this case, I would recommend eating Chia seed or Flax Seed regularly.
I have a hard time believing that there are very many people that cannot tolerate any form of EFAs. They are so essential to health. EFAs, especially marine EFAs like DHA, are thought to have possibly played a major role in the evolution of the brain of modern man.
DHA is also found in breast milk and is beneficial for healthy brain development in the womb and in infants.
Posted by Sigismund on March 23, 2010, at 17:32:05
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation, posted by morganator on March 22, 2010, at 23:06:27
>Some people love Piracetam,
Not me
Posted by morganator on March 24, 2010, at 2:55:19
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation, posted by Sigismund on March 23, 2010, at 17:32:05
Yeah it aggravated me and sent me into a bit of a mixed mania. Many people love it though. If someone is not bipolar, I would recommend trying it at least.
Posted by janejane on March 24, 2010, at 11:18:33
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation, posted by morganator on March 23, 2010, at 15:39:06
> I hear ya. Did you try other fish oil supplements? What about ones with higher DHA like Cod liver oil?
I think I tried a couple of (high quality) brands of fish oil. I also tried krill and had a similar response SE-wise, though it wasn't quite as bad. My plan was to try just taking it once or twice a week, but I keep forgetting. (I do like the idea of taking krill since it also contains PS.) Maybe I need one of those weekly pill holders. I worry about getting too much vitamin A from cod liver.
I hope this is not getting too off topic, but do you have any opinion about essential fatty acid testing? I don't know how useful it is (something I've been meaning to look into), but it would be nice to get an idea of what my individual needs are since the typical recommendations don't seem to suit me.
By the way, going back to the OP, I take rhodiola daily and find it helpful for energy, motivation, and mood, although (for me) there have been diminishing returns with it. The benefits were quite noticeable when I started it a few months ago and have waned over time. An increase might be in order.
Posted by morganator on March 24, 2010, at 22:34:17
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » morganator, posted by janejane on March 24, 2010, at 11:18:33
I've heard with rhodiola you may have to take breaks in order to maintain effectiveness.
I don't know of any good testing for EFA's. It may be something to ask your doctor about. That sucks you don't respond well to fish oil or krill oil. I think I remember you saying that you eat flax, is this correct? Flax and Chia seed are excellent sources of omega 3 EFA's and it is possible that the omega 3s(alpha linoleic acid) in Flax and Chia converts into EPA and DHA in the body. So you may be getting the benefits of EPA and DHA if you consume Flax or Chia.
Posted by janejane on March 25, 2010, at 12:20:01
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » janejane, posted by morganator on March 24, 2010, at 22:34:17
Yeah, I've read about taking breaks, but I've also seen anecdotal reports of rhodiola pooping out on people who've done that. And I've read of many people who take it continually without a problem, including some (I believe in Siberia) who've apparently taken it every day of their lives.
Most of the recommendations for breaks I've seen seem to be based on the notion that you're just supposed to do that with adaptogens, not with rhodiola per se. The most comprehensive literature I've seen doesn't even bring it up as a concern (this includes a couple of reviews as well a book on rhodiola written by a psychopharmacologist who uses it in his practice as an adjunct to ADs). This is not to say I haven't wondered about tolerance developing, because I have. I just worry about poop out too much to stop taking it.
I do occasionally put flax seed on my salads. From what I've read, it doesn't convert very well (though women apparently do better than men). My feeling is that my needs might just be less than average (especially for EPA), though as I said I would like to confirm this. I'm going to ask my doc about testing when I speak to her next.
I really am a bit of freak in other ways so it wouldn't surprise me if I were atypical in my EFA needs. For example, my serum copper continues too be low despite supplementing (the ironic thing is I asked for the test because I was afraid it was too high), as does my D3 (though to a lesser extent). Yet my B12 was above the normal range when I tested it about a year ago and I didn't take vitamins regularly then so it wasn't from supplementation. I asked for hormone tests recently and I'm hoping that low estrogen will explain the copper thing (as well as other symptoms). We'll see. It's all such a crap shoot trying to figure out these things.
Back to EFAs, I'm actually a bit wary of too much EPA since appears to affect cholesterol (at least in the form of krill and fish). Although this would usually be a benefit for those with bad numbers, my HDL ("good cholesterol") is quite high while my LDL ("bad cholesterol") is a bit on the low side and I'm afraid lowering it further could exacerbate my depression. (One study found that LDL under 100 in women was associated with depression. Other studies seem to have confounding findings, though.) Regardless, I'm going to try to remember to take krill occasionally, at least in weeks when I don't eat a lot of fish.
Posted by morganator on March 25, 2010, at 17:45:14
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » morganator, posted by janejane on March 25, 2010, at 12:20:01
I'm surprised you can eat fish and not have the same bad response you do to taking fish oil supplements.
Posted by janejane on March 26, 2010, at 8:34:15
In reply to Re: Supplements for energy/motivation » janejane, posted by morganator on March 25, 2010, at 17:45:14
> I'm surprised you can eat fish and not have the same bad response you do to taking fish oil supplements.
I thought this was a good question so I looked up some different types of fish and it turns out that many are actually quite low in EPA (darn). For example, the last fish I ate was tilapia. 100 grams has only 0.005g of EPA. Even looking at something like tuna (not a favorite, but probably the most popular fish I can think of), a whole can has only 0.078g. It's mainly the cold water fish like salmon and anchovies that have high EPA, and I don't eat much of those. I do like trout which has 0.220 per 3 oz. but that turns out to be more than 1 fillet, which would be a lot for me (I don't have a big appetite). The next time I have it I will pay attention to my mood, though. Sometimes I have fluctuations for no apparent reason and if I felt a bit anxious after having it, I guess I'd now know why.
This is the end of the thread.
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