![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 130 to 154 of 228. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:32:34
In reply to Re: Selegiline, posted by world citizen on March 10, 2005, at 23:27:08
>
>
> Hey Elroy,
> Okay I guess I left out some crucial bits of information. I hope this will get you there:www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenel/.htm
> I'm not sure if the dot preceding htm should be there or not, I wrote it down.
>
> I hope you're doing well.
> World Citizenhttp://www.restoreunity.org/improving_deprenyl.htm
Editorially, the article is clearly written by a non-scientist. There are some factual errors, and many semantic and descriptive ones.
I'll focus on a couple errors. SAMe does NOT reduce homocysteine. It, in fact, can only increase homocysteine, as homocysteine is a direct byproduct of SAMe metabolism. If you increase SAMe by any means, without increasing the reprocessing of homocysteine, homocysteine levels will rise.
There are two routes to homocysteine reprocessing. One, usually the dominant one, requires vitamins B6 and B12, where B12 is a methyl-donor to homocysteine, producing methionine. The other system, an inducible hepatic enzyme, requires TMG. TMG is the methyl-donor for converting homocysteine to methionine.
The second error involves the recommendation for a omega 3-6-9 oil supplement. You cannot benefit from such a supplement, unless your regular diet is absolutely devoid of all polyunsaturated fatty acids. I can assure you, that is not the case. And, flax oil cannot supply the (they'll soon be) essential fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). That means marine oil (fish, seal, krill, etc.), or the vegetarian product, Neuromins (derived from algae).
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:42:52
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 14:29:35
> Have you tried it with the protocol of taking the amino acid DLPA (DL Phenylalanine) on an empty stomach about 30 minutes before taking the deprenyl?
>
> As I (who am just a humble layman who reads a lot) understand it, the DL-Phenylalanine converts quite a bit into Tyrosine which converts quite a bit into L-Dopa which converts quite a bit into Dopamine which converts quite a bit into what used to be called Adrenalin (a term not so much used now as it apparently quickly breaks down into Norepinephrine and Epinephrine). What L-phenyalanine is not used in the above conversion process (if I have this right) is a direct precursor to phenylethylamine (PEA). PEA acts as an endogenous compound in the brain that promotes energy and elevates moodClose enough, but dopamine is the direct precurser to noradrenaline, which is then converted into adrenaline (sometimes called epinephrine).
The advantage of DLPA over LPA with selegiline is that D-phenylalanine does not fit into the enzyme that converts phenylalanine to tyrosine. It does, however, fit into the enzyme that decarboxylates phenylalanine into PEA. So, half the DLPA dose (i.e. the DPA) can only go to PEA, and a little bit of the LPA probably gets converted to PEA as well....I'd expect a roughly 55% yield of PEA from DLPA, as compared to maybe 10% yield from pure L-phenylalanine.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:48:21
In reply to RE: Liquid Deprenyl » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 12, 2005, at 19:53:26
> I can only report that I've seen posts both ways. Obviously 5mg is 5mg either way, so I think that it boils down to whether or not the liquid version metabolizes faster for some people... and if it does then is that actually even a benefit? Maybe slower metabolizing is better???
The advantage of the liquid is that it is sublingual. The selegiline can directly enter the blood stream across the mucous membranes of the mouth. This bypasses the enteric circulation system, which has massive amounts of the enzymes that break selegiline down. By going straight into the cerebral circulation, more undegraded selegiline can reach the brain, when compared with normal oral dosing. Snorting drugs....why? Straight to the brain. Same sort of rationale.
BTW, that is also why the selegiline patch was developed, to bypass the enteric circulation system, and all its degredatory enzymes.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:53:41
In reply to RE: DLPA » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 14, 2005, at 19:13:50
> Do some research (Searches) on the substance picamilon (sometimes spelled picamilone). It is a bonding of GABA with naicin that supposedly gets through the brain's blood barrier quite effectively (50%, 70%???). Anyway, quite a bit of interesting information out there about it.
Best source I found for picamilon:
http://www.beyond-a-century.com/
Lar
P.S. Have it, but haven't tried it yet.
Posted by Elroy on March 26, 2005, at 13:42:33
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:42:52
Well, what I have found - with the Dr. Bib protocol or whatever - is that the DLPA or even LPA tends to make my anxiety and certain physical symptoms qute worse. Physical symptoms such as a UTI or semi-prostatitis type pain. My urologist thinks that I have an over-production of adrenaline (NE and so forth) and that it is not only causing the severe anxiety, but also the flare-ups of the UTI type symptoms and some other "evil effects"... and that any supplement that I take that greatly increases NE (etc.) just worsenes things.
Interesting....
And, yes, I caught those same errors on the Dr. Bib web site. With SAMe - and I also believe with TMG - is pretty necessary to take th B vites...
Interestingly, the Deprenyl by itself (5 mg dose) did NOT have that same effect, only when I took it with the DLPA or even just the LPA... so then I wondered about just the "D" version? I wonder if it would have lessened effects on increasing NE, etc. as (I believe) it is mostly converting to PEA???
Then I got to thinking....
My primary problem is ANXIETY - not depression. And here I am getting caught up - like most pscyh docs - in looking at ADs to address an anxiety problem. I actually have very little depression - other than the ocasional depression at being ticked off at my continuing physical / emotional state!
I had a somewhat "unique" situation occur where I had developed anxiety problems (after several years of stress related to work stress in a whistleblower environment and a subsequent whistleblower lawsuit) for about 18 months or so (July 2002 to early February 2004) and then everything cleared up. The anxiety was mostly on-again and off-again and mild to moderate with occasionals ever episode - but even then not extremely so.
And then in June of 2004 the anxiety returned much, much worse and remained constant - and seemed to just worsen week by week. Within just 2 - 3 weeks I had the following physical symptoms quickly appear - and with severe ysmptoms almost immediately, no "build up": hypogonadism, UTI or prostatitis type pains (but no infection ever found), tinnitus, and peripheral neuropathy type pains in hands and (especially) feet - plus some other minor symptoms. No significant problems in any of those areas prior to then.
No depression (other than the occasional normal depression at my continuing state of condition), but severe on-going anxiety.
Last September I was found to have extremely high cortisol levels but anti-cortisol supplements have done a nice job in bringing those levels back down (still elevated, but now just above normal). In September my cortisol levels were almost SIX times the maximum end of the normal reference range! Unknown what they were in June (took a while to get an ENDO to do the desired testing, but I suspect was even much higher. Was some initial concerns as to having Cushing's, but that was eliminated with numerous advanced testings.
Levels stayed high until late September when I was put on 1st anti-anxiety med (Ativan) when they came down a little bit. When I was switched over to Xanax XR they came down another noticeable chunk (but still prety high). The big ddecreases started after a regimen of taking strong anti-cortisol products (only after Cushing's was eliminated).
Interestingly, during the testing process, a small "lesion" (i.e., tumor) was found INSIDE my left adrenal gland. Cushing's can - of course - be caused by an adrenal gland tumor (though usually it is a pituitary gland tumor), but once Cushing's was eliminated the adrenal gland tumor was declared "incidental" and "probably not biologically active".
Now a new PCP doc that I recently hooked up with has expressed some strong reservations about that adrenal gland tumor. He pointed out that being inside the gland that it is probably affecting the adrenaline secretion as that's where it occurs in the adrenal gland, in the medulla or inner layer. His suspicions - at this point - is that the adrenal gland tumor may have caused the severe anxiety and some of the physical symptoms and somewhere along the way the HPAT Axis obviously broke down and the lowered testosterone production and the the super high cortisol output was part of the body's reaction to that...
So.....
A whole new round of (different) testing coming up. My PCP seems to think that the adrenal gand needs to come out and that then the anxiety - and subsequently a lot of the physical symptoms - will clear up. Not as convinced that theHPAT Axis will then achieve a full "re-set" or not after that...
Elroy> > Have you tried it with the protocol of taking the amino acid DLPA (DL Phenylalanine) on an empty stomach about 30 minutes before taking the deprenyl?
> >
> > As I (who am just a humble layman who reads a lot) understand it, the DL-Phenylalanine converts quite a bit into Tyrosine which converts quite a bit into L-Dopa which converts quite a bit into Dopamine which converts quite a bit into what used to be called Adrenalin (a term not so much used now as it apparently quickly breaks down into Norepinephrine and Epinephrine). What L-phenyalanine is not used in the above conversion process (if I have this right) is a direct precursor to phenylethylamine (PEA). PEA acts as an endogenous compound in the brain that promotes energy and elevates mood
>
> Close enough, but dopamine is the direct precurser to noradrenaline, which is then converted into adrenaline (sometimes called epinephrine).
>
> The advantage of DLPA over LPA with selegiline is that D-phenylalanine does not fit into the enzyme that converts phenylalanine to tyrosine. It does, however, fit into the enzyme that decarboxylates phenylalanine into PEA. So, half the DLPA dose (i.e. the DPA) can only go to PEA, and a little bit of the LPA probably gets converted to PEA as well....I'd expect a roughly 55% yield of PEA from DLPA, as compared to maybe 10% yield from pure L-phenylalanine.
>
> Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 14:09:04
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » Larry Hoover, posted by Elroy on March 26, 2005, at 13:42:33
> Now a new PCP doc that I recently hooked up with has expressed some strong reservations about that adrenal gland tumor. He pointed out that being inside the gland that it is probably affecting the adrenaline secretion as that's where it occurs in the adrenal gland, in the medulla or inner layer. His suspicions - at this point - is that the adrenal gland tumor may have caused the severe anxiety and some of the physical symptoms and somewhere along the way the HPAT Axis obviously broke down and the lowered testosterone production and the the super high cortisol output was part of the body's reaction to that...
My own reaction to that information was similar....it was absurd to discount an adrenal lesion as the causative factor solely on the basis of a sample of blood tests. You had many *other* abnormal blood tests, and you have a lesion identified. There is no a priori reason to assume the lesion invokes stable hormone output. It may hypersecrete under certain conditions, though.
It's an axiom in medicine to think horses, not zebras, when you hear hoofbeats. However, in this case, you already know there's a zebra in the vicinity.
Lar
Posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 16:40:56
In reply to RE: DLPA » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 18, 2005, at 11:03:30
> Let me know if you get any response from them as I am still getting no responses from e-mails or phone calls.
Well I haven't heard back from them via email, haven't tried calling since I'm only out 5 bucks. I'll have to add my name as a dissatisfied customer, too bad because they have some really good prices.
Rick
Posted by Elroy on March 27, 2005, at 19:25:21
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 14:09:04
Here's how this how package seemed to go down:
1. Realize something's terribly wrong - physically as well as emotionally.
2. Go to regular PCP (who sells nutritional supplements on side and has a rehab work-out center attached to his offices). He wants "full physical done" (which consists of just very basic blood work).
3. Regular PP comes back with diagnosis that I am just "getting older" (early 50s) and need to "eat better", "supplement my diet" and "exercise more" (note... I already was doing ALL three).
4. When I insisted on more testing, he checked again and found that I had "dismally low" testosterone levels (a month before all of this started - with the initial onslaught of bad anxiety which just kept getting more and more severe). Without checking any other particulars, I was put on a minimum level dosage of AndroGel.
5. Insisted on more testing and was referred to a (local) Endo. He wrote up a bunch of tests and I literally had to beg to get cortisol testing added to the work order (I actually thought that it might be adrenal fatigue). Instead it came back as extremely elevated cortisol levels. Local endo was ecstatic as he thought that it was Cushings for sure (based on ultra high levels and one older fashioned CRH Test).
6. Urologist that I was seeing was upset that no one was looking at adrenal glands (the local endo was just sure it was a pituitary tumor based Cushings). So local Endo had CT Scan done and found a 2.1 x 1.8 cm in left adrenal gland).
7. Urologist was convinced that adrenal gland lesion was responsible for Cushings but local endo remained convinced it was pituitary.
8. At that I transfered to a major medical clinic endo. He had more advanced testing conducted and results came back that it wasn't Cushings. So therefore there was no pit tumor OR adrenal tumor DIRECTLY causing the super high cortisol... so ruled that the adrenal lesion was just "incidental" and "not biologically active"...
9. Now new PCP has re-opened the question, basically saying, "hey, we know that the adrenal gland lesion isn't directly causing the cortisol elevation, and apparently isn't malignant... but we also know that it is inside the adrenal gland and obviously likely to be affecting the medulla of the gland - and the medulla is what controls the secretion of adrenaline which - in excess - can cause severe anxiety... so how about we look further into this possibility???"...And, BINGO, suddenly I'm getting new tests scheduled that are clearly designed to look at things like a more detailed CT Scan, more blood work, some other procedures... all designed to see if the adrenal gland (tumor) might be secreting abnormal levels of adrenaline (and related substances).
On one hand I really, really hope that's the case and that - like with Cushing's - a surgical intervention can remove the anxiety and these various physical symptoms. On the other hand, I'll be ticked that this could have potentially happened as far back as late September and would have saved me further months of additional pains and agony....
Posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 19:43:32
In reply to RE: PEA, posted by gromit on March 13, 2005, at 8:47:41
> > Where does one obtain PEA (Phenylethylamine) from? Seems to me that going this route would be much more effective than going through the DLPA route where A has to convert to B which converts to C, etc., etc.... No???
> >
> > I can't find a source for it in checking my normal online suppliers....
>
> If I recall this has been discussed here before and the only effective way is by injection. I would try googling instead of relying on my memory though.I had either a moment of genious, idiocy, or most likely this is just inane babbling. How about Chocamine? It contains PEA, it's reasonably cheap but it has caffeine so that could be a drawback if you're anxious already I guess. Also it contains tyramine but I don't know if that matters with a low dose of selegiline.
Could chocamine be a effective way to raise PEA levels?
Rick
Posted by Elroy on March 27, 2005, at 20:17:00
In reply to RE: DLPA » Elroy, posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 16:40:56
Did you pay via PayPal?
If so you can file a complaint through them on even a small amount like that. From what I gather, PayPal is most of his business now so he has to be careful with losing them....
> > Let me know if you get any response from them as I am still getting no responses from e-mails or phone calls.
>
> Well I haven't heard back from them via email, haven't tried calling since I'm only out 5 bucks. I'll have to add my name as a dissatisfied customer, too bad because they have some really good prices.
>
>
> Rick
>
Posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 20:38:25
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 19:43:32
Sorry, I've read only the last few posts on this thread, so perhaps I shouldn't be responding, but I wanted to mention that I've read that vigorous physical exercise increases levels of phenylethylamine (PEA).
Posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 20:48:25
In reply to RE: DLPA » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 27, 2005, at 20:17:00
> Did you pay via PayPal?
>
> If so you can file a complaint through them on even a small amount like that. From what I gather, PayPal is most of his business now so he has to be careful with losing them....No, I used my debit card. I had a PayPal account years ago, maybe I should see if it's still active or open a new one.
Posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 21:03:06
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 20:38:25
> Sorry, I've read only the last few posts on this thread, so perhaps I shouldn't be responding, but I wanted to mention that I've read that vigorous physical exercise increases levels of phenylethylamine (PEA).
You would think so. I used to run quite a bit when I was younger and I've never had this "runner's high" that others get. I've had this discussion with my PCP and the new pdoc and they both agree my endorphines are messed up. They didn't mention any treatment though. My former pdoc was a runner and couldn't believe it, 1 of 100 reasons he is my FORMER pdoc.
I think for whatever reason my body either can't produce PEA or produces very little of it.
Thanks
Rick
Posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 21:21:22
In reply to RE: PEA, posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 21:03:06
Hi. Are you on any medications now? The reason I ask is, when I was on an ssri, I found that the good feelings I get after exercising were drastically reduced. Exercising was still better than not exercising at all, but most of the benefits were numbed. This was worst on Celexa and least on Zoloft.
Posted by gromit on March 28, 2005, at 0:53:53
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 21:21:22
> Hi. Are you on any medications now? The reason I ask is, when I was on an ssri, I found that the good feelings I get after exercising were drastically reduced. Exercising was still better than not exercising at all, but most of the benefits were numbed. This was worst on Celexa and least on Zoloft.
Hi. I'm taking selegiline, lamictal and trazodone for sleep. This has been with me my whole life but you're right, I do feel flatter on an ssri. The only rush I've ever got from exercise involved a skateboard, bike, skis or whatever and a vertical space to do stupid things. I'd like that in a bottle please.
Thanks
Rick
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:41:36
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 19:43:32
> > > Where does one obtain PEA (Phenylethylamine) from? Seems to me that going this route would be much more effective than going through the DLPA route where A has to convert to B which converts to C, etc., etc.... No???
> > >
> > > I can't find a source for it in checking my normal online suppliers....
> >
> > If I recall this has been discussed here before and the only effective way is by injection. I would try googling instead of relying on my memory though.
>
> I had either a moment of genious, idiocy, or most likely this is just inane babbling. How about Chocamine? It contains PEA, it's reasonably cheap but it has caffeine so that could be a drawback if you're anxious already I guess. Also it contains tyramine but I don't know if that matters with a low dose of selegiline.
>
> Could chocamine be a effective way to raise PEA levels?
>
>
> RickChocamine. Cute. First time I've heard of a chocolate extract. I was actually surprised one hasn't been on the market for many years already.
I wouldn't hazard to guess how you'd feel on this stuff, other than buzzy and activated.
If you're after PEA, I don't think you can beat D-phenylalanine. It's the direct precursor, and the enzyme that makes it is readily available. Supply of precursor + active enzyme --> high yield of product.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:44:24
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » Larry Hoover, posted by Elroy on March 27, 2005, at 19:25:21
> On one hand I really, really hope that's the case and that - like with Cushing's - a surgical intervention can remove the anxiety and these various physical symptoms. On the other hand, I'll be ticked that this could have potentially happened as far back as late September and would have saved me further months of additional pains and agony....
I hear you, loud and clear.
I broke my elbow Jan 11 2004, and I'm still waiting for a surgical *date*, a friggin booking, let alone the surgery itself. All the while, I'm in pain, 24/7.
I really hope somebody just decides that an adrenal tumour should just come out. End of speculation on its effect/non-effect on your cortisol status.
Lar
Posted by Elroy on March 28, 2005, at 16:47:48
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:41:36
I agree with this on PEA and the "D version".
I have only been able to locate the "D" version only so far at the following links:
http://www.vitaminmen.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?action=display&ID=1002
Pure D-Phenylalanine - (FTH Nutraceuticals) 500mg, 50 caps - $34.95http://www.iherb.com/dphenylalanine1.html
Best D-Phenylalanine, Doctor's Best, 500 mg, 60 Veggie Caps - $10.00Anyone know of any other sources or have any experience with either of those two manufacturers (Doctor's Best or FTH Nutraceuticals)?
Would like to give it a try at some point (though, truthfully, am concentrating on my anxiety problems and adrenal tumor testings right now), but would like to find a lower dosage to start out with... like 100mg or 250mg at tops....
But, yes, as far as the selegiline-based therapy, going with just the added D-Phenylalanine could be interesting IF one has a problem with the addition of L-Phenylalanine or even the combined DLPA causing anxiety problems.... or even just too much of "the jitters".
> > > > Where does one obtain PEA (Phenylethylamine) from? Seems to me that going this route would be much more effective than going through the DLPA route where A has to convert to B which converts to C, etc., etc.... No???
> > > >
> > > > I can't find a source for it in checking my normal online suppliers....
> > >
> > > If I recall this has been discussed here before and the only effective way is by injection. I would try googling instead of relying on my memory though.
> >
> > I had either a moment of genious, idiocy, or most likely this is just inane babbling. How about Chocamine? It contains PEA, it's reasonably cheap but it has caffeine so that could be a drawback if you're anxious already I guess. Also it contains tyramine but I don't know if that matters with a low dose of selegiline.
> >
> > Could chocamine be a effective way to raise PEA levels?
> >
> >
> > Rick
>
> Chocamine. Cute. First time I've heard of a chocolate extract. I was actually surprised one hasn't been on the market for many years already.
>
> I wouldn't hazard to guess how you'd feel on this stuff, other than buzzy and activated.
>
> If you're after PEA, I don't think you can beat D-phenylalanine. It's the direct precursor, and the enzyme that makes it is readily available. Supply of precursor + active enzyme --> high yield of product.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by Elroy on March 28, 2005, at 17:27:25
In reply to RE: Segeline (Deprenyl) and phenyalanine » Elroy, posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:44:24
Sorry to hear about your elbow. As far as the wait, I'd say that's shocking but unfortunately it isn't. It's the norm.
Lar, I couldn't agree with you more. Right now I find myself actually praying that:
(A) the tests reveal that excess adrenaline (and/or whatever else) is being produced by - or caused by - this tumor (a tumor that is already known to exist),
(B) that the doctor involved recognizes the test results and agrees to the surgical removal option, and
(C) that the adrenal gland IS the cause of all of these problems that came on so abruptly - and immediately following the onslaught of this severe anxiety - and that the its removal not only relieves the anxiety problems, but also starts correcting these various physical ills.
Well, the process starts tomorrow. I go to the "Main Clinic" (major metropolitan hospital) tomorrow morning and have some more cortisol related testing procedures done and then also get a special blood test, a Metanephrin test, for determining catecholamine production. So I sit here actually hoping upon hope that my test comes back as being not just "positive" but highly positive, that this sucker is secreting catecholamines like crazy. I have a more detailed CT Scan scheduled at this same clinic (major metro hospital) on April 5th. I would actually love for the first news of my results to be a message telling me that it's absolutely necessary that the CT Scan be moved up as soon as possible!
Isn't that strange... that one would so desperately want a physical disorder to be identified even if it is something as serious as a tumor causing Cushings or a tumor causing something else such as Pheochromocytoma (back when it was still thought to be Cushing's, I desperately hoped that they'd find a pit or adrenal tumor that was causing the Cushing's... and was almost ecstatic when the adrenal gland tumor was then found, thinking, aha!, this is it... and then crushed when further tests indicated that it wasn't even Cushing's... high cortisol, yes, ultra high cortisol, yep, but not being caused by the adrenal gland tumor putting out too much ACTH which then caused excessive cortisol secretions)....
> > On one hand I really, really hope that's the case and that - like with Cushing's - a surgical intervention can remove the anxiety and these various physical symptoms. On the other hand, I'll be ticked that this could have potentially happened as far back as late September and would have saved me further months of additional pains and agony....
>
> I hear you, loud and clear.
>
> I broke my elbow Jan 11 2004, and I'm still waiting for a surgical *date*, a friggin booking, let alone the surgery itself. All the while, I'm in pain, 24/7.
>
> I really hope somebody just decides that an adrenal tumour should just come out. End of speculation on its effect/non-effect on your cortisol status.
>
> Lar
>
>
Posted by gromit on March 28, 2005, at 22:10:19
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:41:36
> I wouldn't hazard to guess how you'd feel on this stuff, other than buzzy and activated.
Yeah but there is activated like too much caffeine or activated like a reasonable dose of methamphetamine. It's cheap enough to experiment with chocamine though.
> If you're after PEA, I don't think you can beat D-phenylalanine. It's the direct precursor, and the enzyme that makes it is readily available. Supply of precursor + active enzyme --> high yield of product.Ok I can be a little slow sometimes. When taking DLPA you get the precursor and the enzyme, or the enzyme should be abundant in the body already? Maybe this mechanism is broken for me and I can't, ummm, make much PEA. Or maybe this isn't a problem I have at all.
Will you take a crack at this next thing if you have time/energy?
Things that make me feel better.
1. Methamphetamine - I actually used this pretty responsibly after taking too much once.
2. Marijuana - I was ridiculous with this for years, helps focus short term after a restart. Always makes me wired.
3. Vicodin - Doesn't really help with pain much anymore, helps with focus and AD properties. Always makes me wired.
4. Provigil - It was like each bottle I got had a random number of sugar tablets, when it worked it was great.Ok it sounds kinda bad, ummm duh, that's why it's called getting high. Still normally people aren't up all night from opiates or bong hits. What could be out of whack here?
Can you think of a supplement combo probably including meds that makes sense for me?
I was sorry to hear about your elbow, pain sucks! If I remember you were already dealing with chronic pain from another injury too.
Thanks,
Rick
Posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 1:13:48
In reply to RE: PEA » Sarah T., posted by gromit on March 28, 2005, at 0:53:53
Oh, so you are taking selegiline. How's it going? How long have you been on it? How's your sleep? The only MAOI I've taken is Parnate, and it made my sleep patterns even worse than they are naturally. I've been interested in possibly trying selegiline some day, but I'm worried about having sleep problems similar to those I had on Parnate.
As for bottling that rush you feel while skateboarding or skiing, if I ever learn how to bottle it, I'll be sure to let you know.
Posted by gromit on March 29, 2005, at 2:32:43
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 1:13:48
> Oh, so you are taking selegiline. How's it going? How long have you been on it? How's your sleep? The only MAOI I've taken is Parnate, and it made my sleep patterns even worse than they are naturally. I've been interested in possibly trying selegiline some day, but I'm worried about having sleep problems similar to those I had on Parnate.
Yes I've been taking it around a month now I guess. It's not working like it did the first 2 weeks but I'm going to give it some more time. I think the liquid was more effective for me but the pills cost $10 and the liquid $90. I haven't noticed it keeping me up any more than usual but I couldn't sleep before I started it either.
Rick
Posted by Elroy on March 29, 2005, at 6:44:45
In reply to RE: PEA, posted by gromit on March 27, 2005, at 21:03:06
Probaby should have noted this earlier, but the problem with PEA is that it has a ridiculously low half-life in the brain. Larry H. probably knows it more accurately, but it is something like just a minute or two. So it is gone that quickly (which is why one craves more chocolate or runs for miles and miles - if one is the type that easily gets the PEA release from running).
And that is the theory behind the LOW DOSE levels of Selegiline - but combined with DLPA (or variation thereof). The Selegiline inhibits the breakdown of PEA, keeping it active longer (also dopamine, etc. if you are taking the L-Phenylalanine or DLPA).
BTW, the LOW DOSE levels of Selegiline (15mg and under) are NOT considered MAO Type A Inhibitor. At those levels Selegiline is a selective MAO type B inhibitor with minimal side effects and no dietary restrictions. It is also minimally effective (as an Anti-depressent) by itself at those low dosage levels - although used extensively as a life extension agent at very low doses. Anyway, clinical tests show that ut seems to be very effective at those LOW DOSE levels when used in combination with DLPA or simply D-Phenylalanine.... or with L-Phenylalanine if one's problem consists of low levels of dopamine as a brain neurotransmitter.
See:
http://www.deprenyl.net/Deprenyl/deprenyl-14.htm
http://www.deprenyl.net/Deprenyl/deprenyl-61.htm
http://www.deprenyl.net/Deprenyl/deprenyl-27.htm
http://www.deprenyl.net/The last site has some interesting text explaining deprenyl (or selegiline) action... and why this would NOT be a good selection if one has primarily an anxiety problem....
QUOTE: Knoll discovered that deprenyl (and its “cousin”, PEA) are “catecholamine activity enhancers”. Catecholamines refers to the inter-related neurotransmitters dopamine, noradrenalin, and adrenalin. Catecholamines are the transmitters for key activating brain circuits... What Knoll and colleagues discovered through their highly technical experiments is that deprenyl and PEA act to more efficiently couple the release of neurotransmitters to the electrical impulse that triggers their release.... In other words, deprenyl (and PEA) cause a larger release of transmitters in response to a given electrical impulse. It’s like “turning up the volume” on catecholamine nerve cell activity. And this may be clinically very useful in various contexts - such as Parkinson’s disease and Alzheimer’s disease, where the nigrostriatal tract and mesolimbic-cortical circuits under-function, as well as in depression, where they may be under-activity of both dopamine and noradrenalin neurons.... END QUOTE
In primary anxiety states, there is too much "brain circuit transmitting" going on (which is why Xanax, a GABA enhancer, is so effective as GABA tends to calm down that neurotransmitting activity). Also, persons with primary anxiety states tend to have excessive levels of "Catecholamines" (the inter-related neurotransmitters of dopamine, noradrenalin, and adrenalin) in the system already. Therefore (as I quickly came to find out through trial), the selegiline - and especially as combined with DLPA - is not a good protocol for primary anxiety states.
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> > Sorry, I've read only the last few posts on this thread, so perhaps I shouldn't be responding, but I wanted to mention that I've read that vigorous physical exercise increases levels of phenylethylamine (PEA).
>
> You would think so. I used to run quite a bit when I was younger and I've never had this "runner's high" that others get. I've had this discussion with my PCP and the new pdoc and they both agree my endorphines are messed up. They didn't mention any treatment though. My former pdoc was a runner and couldn't believe it, 1 of 100 reasons he is my FORMER pdoc.
>
> I think for whatever reason my body either can't produce PEA or produces very little of it.
>
>
> Thanks
> Rick
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 29, 2005, at 7:02:01
In reply to Re: Selegiline » world citizen, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:21:56
Posted by world citizen on April 1, 2005, at 1:03:24
In reply to RE: PEA » gromit, posted by Elroy on March 29, 2005, at 6:44:45
Hey Elroy, I was wondering how you're doing and when the MDs are going to look into the whole adrenal gland lesion? I sure hope that's the cause of all your distress these many months. I wouldn't wish surgery on anyone but if it will increse your quality of life it makes the choice easy, huh?
I continue to stagger along. I'm happy to share that I got the results back on an extensive abdominal ultrasound that was done and everything in there looks normal-this INCLUDES my LIVER. No cancer has begun and I think with the clean living I've been doing for the last quarter of a century and my awarenes of herbs and antioxidants I think I'm not going to have to worry about liver cancer!
This is the equation I've found most effective for me. World Citizen + trust in God = greatly reduced anxiety!
Let me know how things are going if you feel like it.
World Citizen
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