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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 10 to 34 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 18:50:13
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 18:31:46
Thanks again Kara for the response. In response to your question, I ended up being put on Depo because my cycle started becoming irregular over the past 8 months (every 2 - 3 weeks). It was really taking a toll on me, particularly with the iron deficiency. My gp had done a FSH test about 5 months ago to see if I was perimenopausal (I am 42 and a smoker). The result was negative. When the irregularities continued, she referred me to a gyno. He didn't redo the test or check anything else, although he did order a pelvic ultrasound which took place a few weeks after the shot. He suggested Depo because I smoke. I usually prefer to know a bit more about a drug that I am being given (I have had bad reactions to cough medicine), but in this case, I was simply told that it may cause some weight gain and cessation of periods. When I started feeling really ill a about 1 - 2 weeks after the shot, I did some research. What I found out is that Depo can be a very nasty drug for a lot of women. I won't be getting a second shot.
I think I have made my decisions about my natural supplements. I will stick with the B-Complex and extra B-12, vitamin C (500 mg, twice a day), magnesium (250 mg, twice a day). Continue the MACA (hopefully to offset the Depo shot). And, I will look at adding Picamilon or blueberry leaf extract for anxiety. At this time I am going to stay away from the Rhodiola. I re-visited the the literature I had received about the product, and it said that although it is not a MAO inhibitor, it works on balancing MAO. I am now a little nervous about adding it because I had read that MAOIs should not be mixed with SSRIs. I don't want to take any chances.
Thanks again. Hopefully we'll have a chance to chat again soon. Have a good evening.
Tamara
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 19:17:22
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » karaS, posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 18:50:13
> Thanks again Kara for the response. In response to your question, I ended up being put on Depo because my cycle started becoming irregular over the past 8 months (every 2 - 3 weeks). It was really taking a toll on me, particularly with the iron deficiency. My gp had done a FSH test about 5 months ago to see if I was perimenopausal (I am 42 and a smoker). The result was negative. When the irregularities continued, she referred me to a gyno. He didn't redo the test or check anything else, although he did order a pelvic ultrasound which took place a few weeks after the shot. He suggested Depo because I smoke. I usually prefer to know a bit more about a drug that I am being given (I have had bad reactions to cough medicine), but in this case, I was simply told that it may cause some weight gain and cessation of periods. When I started feeling really ill a about 1 - 2 weeks after the shot, I did some research. What I found out is that Depo can be a very nasty drug for a lot of women. I won't be getting a second shot.
>
> I think I have made my decisions about my natural supplements. I will stick with the B-Complex and extra B-12, vitamin C (500 mg, twice a day), magnesium (250 mg, twice a day). Continue the MACA (hopefully to offset the Depo shot). And, I will look at adding Picamilon or blueberry leaf extract for anxiety. At this time I am going to stay away from the Rhodiola. I re-visited the the literature I had received about the product, and it said that although it is not a MAO inhibitor, it works on balancing MAO. I am now a little nervous about adding it because I had read that MAOIs should not be mixed with SSRIs. I don't want to take any chances.
>
> Thanks again. Hopefully we'll have a chance to chat again soon. Have a good evening.
>
> Tamara
Tamara,Sounds like you're making good decisions. I wasn't being judgemental about the Depo Provera shot. I just didn't know exactly what it was used for.
One thing about those FSH tests - many women I've known have had that test and the results didn't make any sense. My friend who was in her late 40's was told that she wasn't menopausal because of her test results and that she should be getting her period. However, she definitely was menopausal and I think she had her period once more a few months later and never has had it again. (That was about 10 years ago.) My sister had a similar strange test result. I could be wrong but that has led me to believe that the FSH levels can really vary a lot and so are not the final word on menopause status - just one more tool to help determine it.
Anyway, good luck and definitely keep us posted on your progress!
Kara
Posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 19:28:37
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 19:17:22
> > Thanks again Kara for the response. In response to your question, I ended up being put on Depo because my cycle started becoming irregular over the past 8 months (every 2 - 3 weeks). It was really taking a toll on me, particularly with the iron deficiency. My gp had done a FSH test about 5 months ago to see if I was perimenopausal (I am 42 and a smoker). The result was negative. When the irregularities continued, she referred me to a gyno. He didn't redo the test or check anything else, although he did order a pelvic ultrasound which took place a few weeks after the shot. He suggested Depo because I smoke. I usually prefer to know a bit more about a drug that I am being given (I have had bad reactions to cough medicine), but in this case, I was simply told that it may cause some weight gain and cessation of periods. When I started feeling really ill a about 1 - 2 weeks after the shot, I did some research. What I found out is that Depo can be a very nasty drug for a lot of women. I won't be getting a second shot.
> >
> > I think I have made my decisions about my natural supplements. I will stick with the B-Complex and extra B-12, vitamin C (500 mg, twice a day), magnesium (250 mg, twice a day). Continue the MACA (hopefully to offset the Depo shot). And, I will look at adding Picamilon or blueberry leaf extract for anxiety. At this time I am going to stay away from the Rhodiola. I re-visited the the literature I had received about the product, and it said that although it is not a MAO inhibitor, it works on balancing MAO. I am now a little nervous about adding it because I had read that MAOIs should not be mixed with SSRIs. I don't want to take any chances.
> >
> > Thanks again. Hopefully we'll have a chance to chat again soon. Have a good evening.
> >
> > Tamara
>
>
> Tamara,
>
> Sounds like you're making good decisions. I wasn't being judgemental about the Depo Provera shot. I just didn't know exactly what it was used for.
>
> One thing about those FSH tests - many women I've known have had that test and the results didn't make any sense. My friend who was in her late 40's was told that she wasn't menopausal because of her test results and that she should be getting her period. However, she definitely was menopausal and I think she had her period once more a few months later and never has had it again. (That was about 10 years ago.) My sister had a similar strange test result. I could be wrong but that has led me to believe that the FSH levels can really vary a lot and so are not the final word on menopause status - just one more tool to help determine it.
>
> Anyway, good luck and definitely keep us posted on your progress!
>
> KaraKara,
Not to worry. I didn't think you were being judgemental at all. I am, actually, kicking myself in the *ss for taking the shot, particularly when my initial instinct was don't do it (it is a 3-month injectable, so there is nothing you can do for three months if you have an adverse reaction). I agree that the FSH test can be fallible. Well, I will continue to take the MACA and, hopefully have good results with that in terms of hormonal balancing.
Thanks again.
Tamara
>
>
Posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 19:52:36
In reply to Re: Magnesium » jujube, posted by JLx on September 26, 2004, at 12:06:43
> > The magnesium I am taking is magnesium oxide.
>
> I would definitely get another kind of magnesium. See this post: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20030306/msgs/207021.html
>
> Magnesium aspartate, and magnesium glutamate are contraindicated with depression, btw. Mg glycinate and mg taurate are probably the most calming because of the amino acids they're chelated with. Mg citrate is good, but I found it to be one of the more diarrhea-inducing types, as opposed to mg malate, which I like better, but maybe that's just me.
>
> > By the way, when I started getting sick after the Depo shot, I started doing research and came across the site you indicated as well as others. It is astounding how many women have suffered on that drug.
>
> It's not surprising considering it's just synthetic progesterone. Did you find ideas about what might counteract the effects? I took some progesterone, after all the hype about it, but it was the wrong thing for my body type. At least I could just discontinue it and feel better. You are stuck for 3 months or longer.
>
> > I learned that it is used in the prison system on sex offenders and pedeophiles. Nice eh?
>
> I have never heard anything good about it actually, especially in the feminist press.
>
> JL
>JL,
Why do you like the Mg malate best? I was looking on iHerb.com to order Mg taurate and I was surprised to see that they don't carry it at all. Also, have you tried any sustained-release versions? I hear that's a good way to take it.
-K
Posted by tealady on September 26, 2004, at 23:44:22
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » karaS, posted by jujube on September 24, 2004, at 7:33:43
> to try and combat the horrible side effects I am having from my first (and yes, my only) Depo Provera shot. I am just recovering my iron deficincy that left me exhausted and apathetic. I find that when I recover from a physical illness, I seem to end up being very anxious and apprehensive (thank God I only get really sick about once every 7 or 8 years or so). Anyways, are there any supplements that you would recommend (i.e. amino acids or an amino blend) to help me get back on my feet and to particularly address the lack of motivation and anxiety (I did try L-Tyrosine, but after two weeks, I felt like I was going to spin out of control - a little too wired, even when I reduced the dose)? Thanks and sorry for the long message.
Hi ,
Depo is dreadful stuff for most...
here's a thread with thought from quite a few users is anyone wants a sample of effects
This posts mentions some psychological effects too
http://forums.about.com/ab-womenshealth/messages?msg=729.43 (to read whole thread..select advanced view at bottom RHS, then all messages)
some go OK on it though?
here's a snip "wife switched to Depo-Provera five years ago. Her primary reason for selecting Depo-Provera was two-fold -- for the
treatment of primary dysmennorhea which had caused horrific pre-menstrual pain since age 16, and because of its
convenient once every 13-week injection schedule.Within the first three months after her initial injection, I began seeing the side effects. They worsened in severity over time
and persist to this day. Among those side effects are the following:unpredictable irritability and excitability
inexplicable anxiety
restlessness
constant fatigue
insomnia
aching joints and skeletal pain
weight gain without a corresponding increase in caloric intake or a decline in aerobic activity
virtual total loss of libido
anorgasmia
daily gastric upset
frequent headaches
severe acne on her face and neck
hot flashes
night sweatsIn a very short time, my wife went from being a youthful, energetic, level-headed, sinuous, sensuous woman in the prime of her life to an easily provoked, often irrational, anxious, exhausted, sexually disinterested, overweight menopausal older woman. I still adore this woman for the many wonderful qualities I know she still possesses, but our life together has become almost constantly frustrating and I often find myself walking on eggshells.
Perhaps my son (from a previous marriage) expressed the situation best when, totally unaware that she was using Depo-Provera, he said about 5 months after my wife had started using Depo-Provera, "When we met her, it was like an angel had come into our lives. She was really nice. We used to have a lot of fun as a family, but then she turned into someone else."Jan
Posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 1:01:54
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » karaS, posted by jujube on September 26, 2004, at 19:28:37
Hi Tamara,
Didn't mean to scare ya with the depo post...just meant as a warning in case anyone else here is considering it!..or in case you think it might be convenient to change your mind.(heard that one before, sorry)Re the low iron..once you ge your ferritin levels over 50..good to aim for around 70ish for ferritin...then maybe consider trying the tyroien again..no more tha 500mg tyrosine though..and take early first thing in morning on empty stomach, then some P5PB6 (say 20mg daily) and small dose of zinc(say 15mg) with brekkie at least couple of times a week..and keep going with your multi and magnesium near brekkie too...
may work better when your ferritin is up...ya should be able to tolerate it better(less edgy)On the other hand ...tyrosine is just NOT for some people..makes them aggro/cranky
Jan
Posted by jujube on September 27, 2004, at 7:03:51
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by tealady on September 27, 2004, at 1:01:54
Thanks Jan. You didn't scare me with the Depo post. When I started feeling sick, throwing up every morning and during the day, and having overwhelming anxiety (it was like I was becoming afraid to go anywhere), mood swings and fatigue, I started doing research and came across articles and forums detailing how many, many women have suffered on Depo. With respect to the iron deficiency, my serum ferritin levels are now at 47 (or 49), so I am doing much better there. I continue to take my iron supplements, and may look into using liver extract instead of the iron supplements (since my response to supplementation was not good). I never realized how detrimental low serum ferritin levels can be to a person's system. I thought a person only expeienced physical and emotional symptons when anemia set in. Anyways, I had had to take time off work (a number of months) because of the iron deficiency (it just sucked the life right out of me - probably because it was left untreated for so long and, during this time, I kept pushing myself and worked 11 - 12 hour days. Then, when detected and treated, I did not respond to treatment). I was finally feeling a bit more energetic and clear-headed after a ten-week course of iron injections and then I got the Depo shot. I have been sick ever since (but I've lost about 8 pounds instead of gaining). Thank God I had an enormous amount of leave. If I need more time, I can take it. I will be so happy when the shot wears off and I start to feel like a human being again.
Thanks again for your message.> Hi Tamara,
> Didn't mean to scare ya with the depo post...just meant as a warning in case anyone else here is considering it!..or in case you think it might be convenient to change your mind.(heard that one before, sorry)
>
> Re the low iron..once you ge your ferritin levels over 50..good to aim for around 70ish for ferritin...then maybe consider trying the tyroien again..no more tha 500mg tyrosine though..and take early first thing in morning on empty stomach, then some P5PB6 (say 20mg daily) and small dose of zinc(say 15mg) with brekkie at least couple of times a week..and keep going with your multi and magnesium near brekkie too...
> may work better when your ferritin is up...ya should be able to tolerate it better(less edgy)
>
> On the other hand ...tyrosine is just NOT for some people..makes them aggro/cranky
> Jan
>
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:59:10
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » tealady, posted by jujube on September 27, 2004, at 7:03:51
> Thanks Jan. You didn't scare me with the Depo post. When I started feeling sick, throwing up every morning and during the day, and having overwhelming anxiety (it was like I was becoming afraid to go anywhere), mood swings and fatigue, I started doing research and came across articles and forums detailing how many, many women have >
suffered on Depo.
>
all progestins do that to me..like the pill for instance..and then it don't work anyway..as I throw it up I guess <grin>>
>With respect to the iron deficiency, my serum ferritin levels are now at 47 (or 49), so I am doing much better there.
>Yep, pretty good going!
>
>I continue to take my iron supplements, and may look into using liver extract instead of the iron supplements (since my response to supplementation was not good). I never realized how detrimental low serum ferritin levels can be to a person's system.
>Yep, sure are..where did you learn about ferritin..here? (I've been trying to mention it a bit for a couple of years)
>
> I thought a person only expeienced physical and emotional symptons when anemia set in. Anyways, I had had to take time off work (a number of months) because of the iron deficiency (it just sucked the life right out of me - probably because it was left untreated for so long and, during this time, I kept pushing myself and worked 11 - 12 hour days. Then, when detected and treated, I did not respond to treatment). I was finally feeling a bit more energetic and clear-headed after a ten-week course of iron injections and then I got the Depo shot. I have been sick ever since (but I've lost about 8 pounds instead of gaining). Thank God I had an enormous amount of leave. If I need more time, I can take it. I will be so happy when the shot wears off and I start to feel like a human being again.
>Fingers crossed that's soon. It takes a bit to learn to research everything before we follow doctor's advice doesn't it?
At least with the net and others to chat to and learn from it's now possible!Hugs, Jan
Posted by jujube on September 28, 2004, at 7:55:24
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 6:59:10
> > Thanks Jan. You didn't scare me with the Depo post. When I started feeling sick, throwing up every morning and during the day, and having overwhelming anxiety (it was like I was becoming afraid to go anywhere), mood swings and fatigue, I started doing research and came across articles and forums detailing how many, many women have >
> suffered on Depo.
> >
>
>
> all progestins do that to me..like the pill for instance..and then it don't work anyway..as I throw it up I guess <grin>
>
> >
> >With respect to the iron deficiency, my serum ferritin levels are now at 47 (or 49), so I am doing much better there.
> >
>
> Yep, pretty good going!
>
> >
> >I continue to take my iron supplements, and may look into using liver extract instead of the iron supplements (since my response to supplementation was not good). I never realized how detrimental low serum ferritin levels can be to a person's system.
> >
>
> Yep, sure are..where did you learn about ferritin..here? (I've been trying to mention it a bit for a couple of years)
>
> >
> > I thought a person only expeienced physical and emotional symptons when anemia set in. Anyways, I had had to take time off work (a number of months) because of the iron deficiency (it just sucked the life right out of me - probably because it was left untreated for so long and, during this time, I kept pushing myself and worked 11 - 12 hour days. Then, when detected and treated, I did not respond to treatment). I was finally feeling a bit more energetic and clear-headed after a ten-week course of iron injections and then I got the Depo shot. I have been sick ever since (but I've lost about 8 pounds instead of gaining). Thank God I had an enormous amount of leave. If I need more time, I can take it. I will be so happy when the shot wears off and I start to feel like a human being again.
> >
>
> Fingers crossed that's soon. It takes a bit to learn to research everything before we follow doctor's advice doesn't it?
> At least with the net and others to chat to and learn from it's now possible!
>
> Hugs, JanMy own gp is very good, and she is the own who tested the serum ferritin. There are, however, many doctors who refuse to acknowledge the detrimental effects low serum ferritin levels have on a person's physical and emotional well-being. I was extremely fatigued, experiencing a lot of nausea and indigestion and was just plain moody and was not responding to an AD. At first she thought I had an ulcer. When she tested the serum ferritin, she told me she couldn't believe I was actually able to go into work and get anything done. During the early stages of the iron defiency, I still managed to work my 10 - 11 hour day, but, after a few months of not responding to oral treatment, my body finally (and, yes, my emotions) finally gave out. It's so frustrating because I was almost feeling like a human being again and then I got that horrid Depo Provera shot, and I feel like I have taken a six-month step backward. It doesn't help that the Depo shot has made me so nausea that I am having a hard time eating. I know that once I start getting some decent food into my system, I will start to feel a bit better.
Anyways, thanks for listening. Take good care.
Tamara
Posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 8:14:16
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » tealady, posted by jujube on September 28, 2004, at 7:55:24
your doc sounds great
Posted by jujube on September 28, 2004, at 8:38:16
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » jujube, posted by tealady on September 28, 2004, at 8:14:16
She really is good. She can be a bit bitchy and impatient at times, but she is extremely knowledgeable and thorough. I have been going to her for 8 1/2 years, since I was 34. I started going to her when I stopped drinking and was surprised to find (at her own admission) that she, too, was a recovering alcoholic (at the time she had over 18 years of sobriety). She also suffers from anxiety attacks, and was able to help me understand the difference between an anxiety attack and an attack of low blood sugar. For years (during my drinking), I had been told that I had anxiety attacks. These attacks would hit the day afer a night of heavy drinking (which was most nights), when I would get up and indulge in copious amounts of coffee and cigs and take one of my daily dosea of Sudafed, then go out all pumped up on caffeine, nicotine and pseudoepiphedrine, on an empty stomach. Needless to say, I would suffer an attack. For years, doctors at the clinic would tell me it was nothing more than anxiety (even without asking a single question or doing any blood work). It was years later when I started seeing my now doctor that I learned what had actually been going on with my body. It's so important to find a doctor that understands the issues you are facing and who does more than look at you and dismiss your concerns with a diagnosis of anxiety (or even depression in some cases).
Anyways, talk to you soon.
Tamara
> your doc sounds great
>
Posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:16:51
In reply to Re: Magnesium » JLx, posted by karaS on September 26, 2004, at 19:52:36
> Why do you like the Mg malate best?
Not necessarily best, but better than mg citrate. For me, malate is less likely to provoke diarrhea. Malate is also the one that's indicated for fibromyalgia and CFS, btw, so I figured it might help with my fatigue and aches and pains.
>I was looking on iHerb.com to order Mg taurate and I was surprised to see that they don't carry it at all.
You can get it at The Vitamin Shoppe, or a lot cheaper, at Amazon. (Cardiovasular Research braand)
Also, have you tried any sustained-release versions? I hear that's a good way to take it.
No, I haven't.
JL
Posted by karaS on September 28, 2004, at 16:40:23
In reply to Re: Magnesium » karaS, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:16:51
JL,
Thanks again for your advice. You are a great source! (More comments interspersed below)
> > Why do you like the Mg malate best?
>
> Not necessarily best, but better than mg citrate. For me, malate is less likely to provoke diarrhea. Malate is also the one that's indicated for fibromyalgia and CFS, btw, so I figured it might help with my fatigue and aches and pains.
Right now I'm having a lot of trouble with diarrhea for several reasons (including stress) so I probably should go with the taurate version. OTOH, I have CFS and I will probably be starting on Cymbalta soon (which might change my system a lot) so it might behoove to me order the malate as well.> >I was looking on iHerb.com to order Mg taurate and I was surprised to see that they don't carry it at all.
> You can get it at The Vitamin Shoppe, or a lot cheaper, at Amazon. (Cardiovasular Research braand)
I didn't know that Amazon carried vitamins and at good cost! Cardiovascula Research (CRI) is a great brand! Thanks for the info. I love iHerb.com and like that I can usually get everything I want there at a good price without paying for shipping, but looks like I need to go elsewhere in this case. I tried to get iHerb to carry CRI brand. They were looking into it but now I think I understand why they failed. I bet CRI has an exclusivity deal with Amazon - at least in terms of selling it at a discount.
> Also, have you tried any sustained-release versions? I hear that's a good way to take it.
>
> No, I haven't.
>
> JL
>
>Thanks again.
Take care,
K
Posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 14:37:53
In reply to Re: Magnesium » karaS, posted by JLx on September 28, 2004, at 11:16:51
I'm so confused lately by all of the talk about Magnesium and Calcium. I've read so many things that talk about the dangers of too much calcium, not to mention the possible antagonistic effect on depression. I've read all kinds of different things about what the Calcium/Magnesium intake ratio should be. Then of course there's the issue of women being told that they should be taking 1,000-1,200 mg. a day to prevent osteoporosis. George Eby seems to think that's way too much. Who to believe?
I have read parts of Eby's article on magnesium etc. and while there seems to be a lot of good advice, there are other things he says that trouble me and make me question his information. For instance, he says that no antidepressants work aside from the placebo effect. That's so outrageous that I won't spend anymore time on it. Secondly he says that magnesium and calcium compete for absorption - something that Larry recently said was completely untrue.
Anyone here have more insight into all of this?
-Kara
Posted by JLx on September 29, 2004, at 17:45:44
In reply to Re: Magnesium and Calcium, posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 14:37:53
> I'm so confused lately by all of the talk about Magnesium and Calcium. I've read so many things that talk about the dangers of too much calcium, not to mention the possible antagonistic effect on depression. I've read all kinds of different things about what the Calcium/Magnesium intake ratio should be. Then of course there's the issue of women being told that they should be taking 1,000-1,200 mg. a day to prevent osteoporosis. George Eby seems to think that's way too much. Who to believe?
> I have read parts of Eby's article on magnesium etc. and while there seems to be a lot of good advice, there are other things he says that trouble me and make me question his information. For instance, he says that no antidepressants work aside from the placebo effect. That's so outrageous that I won't spend anymore time on it. Secondly he says that magnesium and calcium compete for absorption - something that Larry recently said was completely untrue.
>
> Anyone here have more insight into all of this?
>
> -KaraEby's kind of nuts on this subject and I don't think he's really read through his own long essay to see the contradictions that have cropped up as he revises. The last time I read some of his stuff, I thought he had actually mellowed on the subject of antidepressants.
It's disgusting that it's so hard to sort through the conflicting info. I've read that dietary calcium is not a factor in calcium kidney stones, for instance. I've read that it IS the cause of kidney stones. And I've read that it actually prevents calcium kidney stones! All from reputable sources. Anyone who's had a kidney stone (as I have) wants correct info to prevent a reoccurence, so this is maddening.
For myself, given how I feel and the bits and pieces I've read, I come down on the side of magnesium dominating. I think that there's lots more to preventing osteoporosis than calcium. Boron, for instance, increases estradiol, which is useful for post-menopausal women.
Food for thought:
Cal/mag ratio: http://www.enerex.bc.ca/calcium%20ratio.htm
Excitotoxins: http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-excitotoxins.htm
JL
Posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 22:32:34
In reply to Re: Magnesium and Calcium, posted by JLx on September 29, 2004, at 17:45:44
> > I'm so confused lately by all of the talk about Magnesium and Calcium. I've read so many things that talk about the dangers of too much calcium, not to mention the possible antagonistic effect on depression. I've read all kinds of different things about what the Calcium/Magnesium intake ratio should be. Then of course there's the issue of women being told that they should be taking 1,000-1,200 mg. a day to prevent osteoporosis. George Eby seems to think that's way too much. Who to believe?
>
> > I have read parts of Eby's article on magnesium etc. and while there seems to be a lot of good advice, there are other things he says that trouble me and make me question his information. For instance, he says that no antidepressants work aside from the placebo effect. That's so outrageous that I won't spend anymore time on it. Secondly he says that magnesium and calcium compete for absorption - something that Larry recently said was completely untrue.
> >
> > Anyone here have more insight into all of this?
> >
> > -Kara
>
> Eby's kind of nuts on this subject and I don't think he's really read through his own long essay to see the contradictions that have cropped up as he revises. The last time I read some of his stuff, I thought he had actually mellowed on the subject of antidepressants.
>
> It's disgusting that it's so hard to sort through the conflicting info. I've read that dietary calcium is not a factor in calcium kidney stones, for instance. I've read that it IS the cause of kidney stones. And I've read that it actually prevents calcium kidney stones! All from reputable sources. Anyone who's had a kidney stone (as I have) wants correct info to prevent a reoccurence, so this is maddening.
>
> For myself, given how I feel and the bits and pieces I've read, I come down on the side of magnesium dominating. I think that there's lots more to preventing osteoporosis than calcium. Boron, for instance, increases estradiol, which is useful for post-menopausal women.> Food for thought:
>
> Cal/mag ratio: http://www.enerex.bc.ca/calcium%20ratio.htm
>
> Excitotoxins: http://www.smart-drugs.com/ias-excitotoxins.htm
>
> JL
JL,Thanks for the links. I am still confused but getting a little clearer. It is maddening though! Looks like even the experts are confused so I'm in good company. I am leaning towards equal levels of calcium and magnesium or no calcium at all but just magnesium. The other thing that is maddening is that all of the articles I've seen are for and about men. They don't deal at all with the special needs of women concerning osteoporosis. GRRRRR!
How awful for you trying to figure out the situation concerning kidney stones! That's such an immediate concern and yet how are you supposed to know what to do?
This all raises another question for me now. I'd like to raise my estrogen production. Should I take additional boron? (above what's in my multiple that is)
Kara
Posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 7:24:48
In reply to Re: Looking for answers - Rosavin (Rhodiola rosea) » tealady, posted by jujube on September 27, 2004, at 7:03:51
> With respect to the iron deficiency, my serum ferritin levels are now at 47 (or 49I never realized how detrimental low serum ferritin levels can be to a person's system. I thought a person only expeienced physical and emotional symptons when anemia set in. Anyways, I had had to take time off work (a number of months) because of the iron deficiency (it just sucked the life right out of me - probably because it was left untreated for so long and, during this time, I kept pushing myself and worked 11 - 12 hour days. Then, when detected and treated, I did not respond to treatment).
>I was finally feeling a bit more energetic and clear-headed after a ten-week course of iron injections and then I got the Depo shot. I have been sick ever since (but I've lost about 8 pounds instead of gaining). Thank God I had an enormous amount of leave. If I need more time, I can take it. I will be so happy when the shot wears off and I start to feel like a human being again.
>
>
Hi again ,Do you mind me asking you if the iron shots left black bruise like marks on your skin. I had 2 or maybe 3 iron shots 3 yrs ago now and I think the marks have finally disappeared! They were inches across.
I was wondering if this was "normal" or not.
I'm wondering if it happens to everyone or only to those with a almost dead metabolism..like the iron just sits there and gets slooowly absorbed.My first iron shot sure lifted the depression and make me feel alive!
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=28257.5I didn't feel the first couple of shots..but I think I felt needles after that..my doc told me that with the low ferritin levels I wouldn't feel the shots..It's true , couldn't even tell whether she'd given it to me.
I was just reading where my hair volume doubled and it was after startig thyrod meds and iron injections...so i'm thinking of trying some more injections.
I cut back on supps in the past couple of weeks as I needed to get some tests run(kept my calc.mag at night going and took other only intermittently)....done that now and last night I took an iron with MultiB-c capsule together with some selenium and my usual calc/mag tablet and slept soundly and even dreamt..could be the iron..or I guess it could be the new estrogen I'm trying too. Think I'll try that combo again anyway.
Jan
Posted by jujube on September 30, 2004, at 7:45:33
In reply to ferritin » jujube, posted by tealady on September 30, 2004, at 7:24:48
> > With respect to the iron deficiency, my serum ferritin levels are now at 47 (or 49I never realized how detrimental low serum ferritin levels can be to a person's system. I thought a person only expeienced physical and emotional symptons when anemia set in. Anyways, I had had to take time off work (a number of months) because of the iron deficiency (it just sucked the life right out of me - probably because it was left untreated for so long and, during this time, I kept pushing myself and worked 11 - 12 hour days. Then, when detected and treated, I did not respond to treatment).
> >I was finally feeling a bit more energetic and clear-headed after a ten-week course of iron injections and then I got the Depo shot. I have been sick ever since (but I've lost about 8 pounds instead of gaining). Thank God I had an enormous amount of leave. If I need more time, I can take it. I will be so happy when the shot wears off and I start to feel like a human being again.
> >
> >
> Hi again ,
>
> Do you mind me asking you if the iron shots left black bruise like marks on your skin. I had 2 or maybe 3 iron shots 3 yrs ago now and I think the marks have finally disappeared! They were inches across.
> I was wondering if this was "normal" or not.
> I'm wondering if it happens to everyone or only to those with a almost dead metabolism..like the iron just sits there and gets slooowly absorbed.
>
> My first iron shot sure lifted the depression and make me feel alive!
> http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=28257.5
>
> I didn't feel the first couple of shots..but I think I felt needles after that..my doc told me that with the low ferritin levels I wouldn't feel the shots..It's true , couldn't even tell whether she'd given it to me.
>
> I was just reading where my hair volume doubled and it was after startig thyrod meds and iron injections...so i'm thinking of trying some more injections.
>
> I cut back on supps in the past couple of weeks as I needed to get some tests run(kept my calc.mag at night going and took other only intermittently)....done that now and last night I took an iron with MultiB-c capsule together with some selenium and my usual calc/mag tablet and slept soundly and even dreamt..could be the iron..or I guess it could be the new estrogen I'm trying too. Think I'll try that combo again anyway.
>
> JanHi Jan,
I, too, have "bruises" on both butt cheeks from the iron injections. I believe it is called "staining". A friend of mine also had to have injections about 1.5 years ago, and she told me that her stains have not yet disappeared. With respect to the shots hurting, when I had my prescription filled, I had been told by the pharmacist that it would hurt and I should take tylenol before and after the shot. However, the shots did not hurt me at all. I felt a little sting, but certainly no pain. I, too, felt more positive with each shot. I could really notice a difference in my mood and my outlook. I don't think I got all the way there in terms of mood because I was on Effexor XR at the time and it left me flat - apathetic and unmotivated. I just didn't understand it. It really hit home just how ineffective Effexor was for me when I got the Depo shot and I sunk really low and starting experiencing extreme anxiety (there was always underlying anxiety while on the Effexor, but not to this extreme). It has been a struggle ever since my iron levels went down, and I am starting to get fed up with feeling like crap. But, the Depo shot will wear off in the next few weeks, and, hopefully, I will start to feel like my old self again. Sorry to complain.
Talk to you soon. Take care.
Tamara
Posted by JLx on September 30, 2004, at 8:33:50
In reply to Re: Magnesium and Calcium » JLx, posted by karaS on September 29, 2004, at 22:32:34
> Thanks for the links. I am still confused but getting a little clearer. It is maddening though! Looks like even the experts are confused so I'm in good company. I am leaning towards equal levels of calcium and magnesium or no calcium at all but just magnesium.
I think we can go by how we feel to some extent. My sister is just the opposite from me -- calcium calms her down and magnesium buzzes her up.
>The other thing that is maddening is that all of the articles I've seen are for and about men. They don't deal at all with the special needs of women concerning osteoporosis. GRRRRR!
This article by The Analyst (which is a pay site that will analyze your individual circumstances per questionnaire) is a pretty good summary of what's best for osteoporosis, I think. To get The Analyst articles, just type your search subject and diagnose-me into Google.
http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C169688.html
I really have some risk factors for osteoporosis, I see. :( Especially from past habits.
> How awful for you trying to figure out the situation concerning kidney stones! That's such an immediate concern and yet how are you supposed to know what to do?
I haven't had another in quite a few years now and think I've got it covered now with magnesium, not taking big Ca supplements and drinking more water.
> This all raises another question for me now. I'd like to raise my estrogen production. Should I take additional boron? (above what's in my multiple that is)
Boron:
Maintains Bones, Joints, Neurons and May Reduce Prostate Cancer Risk http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2003/nov2003_report_boron_02.htmThis is interesting: "As we use more and more phosphates on our food crops, the availability of soil boron is decreasing. It is estimated that most people in western societies ingest about 2mg boron daily. This is based on the analysis of school meals in the U.S.A, but analyses earlier in this century put the figure at 8mg. Observations suggest that boron intake at the level of 5-6mg per day is consistent with the prevention of arthritis. A higher dose may be required for treatment." http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T109236.html
This is what's maddening about all the typical recommendations by the medical establishment and their nutritionists -- how many of these foods are tested with modern farming techniques when they say, don't take a supplement, "eat foods rich in ....."?
I take 3mg boron, 1-3 times a day.
JL
Posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 21:13:23
In reply to Re: Magnesium, Calcium, Boron » karaS, posted by JLx on September 30, 2004, at 8:33:50
> > Thanks for the links. I am still confused >
> I think we can go by how we feel to some extent. My sister is just the opposite from me -- calcium calms her down and magnesium buzzes her up.
I still haven't figured out yet how I feel on them. Maybe they're both neutral for me or relatively so anyway.
> >The other thing that is maddening is that all of the articles I've seen are for and about men. They don't deal at all with the special needs of women concerning osteoporosis. GRRRRR!
>
> This article by The Analyst (which is a pay site that will analyze your individual circumstances per questionnaire) is a pretty good summary of what's best for osteoporosis, I think. To get The Analyst articles, just type your search subject and diagnose-me into Google.
>
> http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C169688.htmlThanks. I've never heard of using that.
> I really have some risk factors for osteoporosis, I see. :( Especially from past habits.I fear I do as well.
> I haven't had another in quite a few years now and think I've got it covered now with magnesium, not taking big Ca supplements and drinking more water.
>
> > This all raises another question for me now. I'd like to raise my estrogen production. Should I take additional boron? (above what's in my multiple that is)
>
> Boron:
> Maintains Bones, Joints, Neurons and May Reduce Prostate Cancer Risk http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2003/nov2003_report_boron_02.htm
>
> This is interesting: "As we use more and more phosphates on our food crops, the availability of soil boron is decreasing. It is estimated that most people in western societies ingest about 2mg boron daily. This is based on the analysis of school meals in the U.S.A, but analyses earlier in this century put the figure at 8mg. Observations suggest that boron intake at the level of 5-6mg per day is consistent with the prevention of arthritis. A higher dose may be required for treatment." http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T109236.htmlOf course the quality of the soil is an issue for a lot of minerals. That's why I take a multi most days. I don't think you can get all of the nutrients you need from eating well anymore.
Have you noticed any signs or had any tests that showed your estrogen levels were raised from taking the extra boron?
> This is what's maddening about all the typical recommendations by the medical establishment and their nutritionists -- how many of these foods are tested with modern farming techniques when they say, don't take a supplement, "eat foods rich in ....."?Exactly
> I take 3mg boron, 1-3 times a day.
>
> JL
>
>Thanks again, JL. You are a wealth of information! I'm so glad you've come back to posting here!!!
Kara
Posted by JLx on September 30, 2004, at 21:47:13
In reply to Re: Magnesium, Calcium, Boron » JLx, posted by karaS on September 30, 2004, at 21:13:23
> Have you noticed any signs or had any tests that showed your estrogen levels were raised from taking the extra boron?As usual, I can't say for sure because I'm usually sort of an all or nothing type when it comes to supplements. I just don't have the patience to take just one thing at a time differently.
The only things I've been able to isolate somewhat inadvertently as having a definite impact are the magnesium (prevents suicide ideation no matter how crappy I am feeling and treating myself otherwise) and for gingivitis, MSM, selenium and Vit. C. Oh, and I also know that DHEA makes me feel better, though somewhat less so than before I started taking magnesium.
> Thanks again, JL. You are a wealth of information! I'm so glad you've come back to posting here!!!
Thanks, I learn a lot here. :)
JL
Posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 17:02:40
In reply to Re: ferritin » tealady, posted by jujube on September 30, 2004, at 7:45:33
Sorry to butt in, just wonder if any of you have tried ferritin as a supplement? I think cardiovascular's one is from beef ferritin.
Ray
Posted by jujube on October 1, 2004, at 17:13:41
In reply to Re: ferritin » jujube, posted by raybakes on October 1, 2004, at 17:02:40
No problem. My doctor had me on Palafar (ferrous fumerate) 300 mg to start and then up to 600 mg. Unfortunately, I did not respond to the oral supplementation after over 6 months of treatment. Since the shots, I continue to supplement with Slow-Fe. I haven't tried beef ferritin. On a website called "The Way Up", I saw a supplement which is a liver extract. I was really interested in trying it, but the doctor who runs the site, Priscilla Spagle (I think that's her name) said it would not be strong enough for me given my deficiency issues. Beef ferritin might be ok if you are only moderately deficient.
Tamara
> Sorry to butt in, just wonder if any of you have tried ferritin as a supplement? I think cardiovascular's one is from beef ferritin.
>
> Ray
>
>
Posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 10:39:13
In reply to Re: ferritin » raybakes, posted by jujube on October 1, 2004, at 17:13:41
> No problem. My doctor had me on Palafar (ferrous fumerate) 300 mg to start and then up to 600 mg. Unfortunately, I did not respond to the oral supplementation after over 6 months of treatment. Since the shots, I continue to supplement with Slow-Fe. I haven't tried beef ferritin. On a website called "The Way Up", I saw a supplement which is a liver extract. I was really interested in trying it, but the doctor who runs the site, Priscilla Spagle (I think that's her name) said it would not be strong enough for me given my deficiency issues. Beef ferritin might be ok if you are only moderately deficient.
Not sure if it's relevant or not, but came across these two abstacts when looking up info about inflammation....
This one shows that inflammation inhibits the manufacture of heme, and accelerates it's degradation...
and this one talks about inhibition of heme synthesis.
Ray
Posted by laurie_lu on October 3, 2004, at 23:00:17
In reply to Re: ferritin » jujube, posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 10:39:13
I'm a 35yr old female with a family history of osteoporosis. What is the proper magnesium/calcium regimen for someone like me who suffers from depression and has the family history osteoporosis?
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