![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 35 to 59 of 87. Go back in thread:
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 13:31:23
In reply to Re: What's up? » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 11, 2003, at 5:32:58
> Hi DSCH, I have been trying to withdraw from Psychobabble ;-)
We could take this over to private e-mail if you want.
> I'm taking L-Tyrosine (+multivitamin complex) some day while some day I'm taking only multivitamin. I have not yet decided if I like it or not. It helps a lot with energy, concentration, motivation but it lessens a bit my capacity to emphatize with people (and my sense of humour too). Anyway, it's not that bad. I can do more easily what I want if I don't care so much about people's feelings.
>
> Tomorrow morning I asked about B6 but the herborist told me that the pure form is not OCT in Italy : o How much B6 would you suggest per day ?25-50 mg seems to be right. Somewhere above 75-100 mg you can start causing nerve damage in the long run.
> On thursday I will purchase tryptophane and I'll try to add it to my regimen to see what happens.
> In future I would like also to try EPA-DHA at proper doses. Ehm, another problem ... L-tyrosine makes me a little short-temper : /
>
> Bye !You could look into B3 (niacin or niacinamide) and/or magnesium.
I would suggest a discussion of what is in your mutli is in order. :-)
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:12:43
In reply to Re: What's up? » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 11, 2003, at 5:32:58
Francesco,
Some thoughts that came to me while my mind wandered tonight instead of shuting down and going to sleep...
You appear to have dramatic responses to coffee/espresso (mostly negative) and gingko (mostly positive). I am wondering if this might be a sign of borderline insufficency in perfusion in areas of your brain, particularly the pre-frontal cortex, which would be aggravated by caffiene (a vasoconstrictor) and helped by gingko (a vasodilator).
I think this might be an explanation for the ADD symptoms you have. You've said before that something more like OCD is what you had from early childhood on. When did you notice ADD coming on and the OCD going away? This is a wild-a** guess on my part, but perhaps a perfusion problem interferes with your OCD-like problem, and cancels it out at the "price" of giving you ADD. When you do something that boosts brain perfusion, the ADD goes away but the "in-built" problem you have is revealed again.
What do you think? If this guessing is correct, the best thing (maybe) would be to take gingko (probably a bit less than that first time around!) ;-) and then find something to take on the problems that are remaining, which sound serotonergic, and thus maybe tryptophan would fit.
I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine given that tyrosine beats out tryptophan and the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC). Meanwhile, I don't think gingko would interfere with tryptophan at all.
Anyway, just some things that were bouncing around my head in lieu of sleep. YMMV. ;-)
Whatever else, make sure you are getting some B3 and magnesium. :-)
Posted by JLx on November 13, 2003, at 5:37:47
In reply to An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:12:43
>I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine given that tyrosine beats out tryptophan and the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC). Meanwhile, I don't think gingko would interfere with tryptophan at all.
I hope you don't mind me butting in on your thread...
Could you please explain what you mean by "the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC)"?
When I took the Amen Clinic brain checklist, I came out "highly probable" in four categories: ADD Inattentive Type, Cingulate System Hyperactivity, Limbic System Hyperactivity, & Basal Ganglia Hyperactivity.
Some of the recommendations for those conditions are the opposites of the others.
For the inattentive ADD he recommends, tyrosine, OPCs and gingko to raise dopamine.
For cingulate gyrus overactivity, to raise serotonin: St. John's Wort, 5-HTP, tryptophan, and inositol.
For limbic problems, to raise norepinephrine and dopamine: tyrosine, DLPA and SAM-e.
For basal ganglia hyperactivity, the anti-anxiety B-vitamins and herbs.
I'm trying something to address all of those -- together, which can be a problem, as you know. As Dr. Amen notes,
"Since serotonin and dopamine levels tend to counterbalance each other: whenever serotonin is raised dopamine tends to be lowered and when dopamine is raised serotonin is lowered."
I was hoping it would be possible to maintain a certain balance between dopamine/serotonin so one gets the benefit of both. So I cut down my tyrosine/phenylalanine doses and added some 5-HTP at night (50 mg) and also started adding a meal of potatoes/small amount of protein for the serotonin boost. It has helped, but it feels nervewracking and unpredictable. And I don't sleep well since the tyrosine. I keep waking up every couple hours, and sleeping only about 5-6 hrs. Sometimes less.
Any suggestions? I already take magnesium, B vits, C, etc. and am experimenting with the TMG.
I've been wondering if I should try tryptophan at night instead of 5-HTP. I hate to spend the money if it's going to be comparable, but from what folks are reporting, it has a different effect.
Posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 6:14:10
In reply to An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:12:43
> Francesco,
>
> Some thoughts that came to me while my mind wandered tonight instead of shuting down and going to sleep...whare are you takin' at the moment ?
> You appear to have dramatic responses to coffee/espresso (mostly negative) and gingko (mostly positive). I am wondering if this might be a sign of borderline insufficency in perfusion in areas of your brain, particularly the pre-frontal cortex, which would be aggravated by caffiene (a vasoconstrictor) and helped by gingko (a vasodilator).
This is substantially right. But ginko doesn't take care of all my problems. It helps a bit with concentration while tyrosine helps much more but not enough. I suspect there is also an "obsessive part" in my concentration problem. That's why half an hour ago I took my first 50 mg Tripthofan capsule : )
What's exactly a borderline insufficency in perfusion in areas of brain ? Also with the help of dictionaries I didn't understand anything : o
When did you notice ADD coming on and the OCD going away?
This is too hard to remember. I suspect that ADHD came first form a logical point of view and that OCD was just an attempt to manage ADHD ... When I was a child I was clearly ADHD and sometimes clearly OCD (not just OCD tendencies, but rituals and so on). When adolescents I had only OCD tendencies + ADHD. Maybe the puberty has changed something in my brain chemistry (yeah, I'm shooting in the dark ;-) Psychologically speaking I'm perfectionist, like many ADDers, but I'm not focused enough to "be perfect". Therefore I give up... how can you study in a "perfect way" while you can't read more than one page without starting to daydream ? When the ADHD is solved the perfectionist tendency remain and I can be perfect ;-)
> What do you think?Too ignorant about the matter to think anything about what you said : )
If this guessing is correct, the best thing (maybe) would be to take gingko (probably a bit less than that first time around!) ;-) and then find something to take on the problems that are remaining, which sound serotonergic, and thus maybe tryptophan would fit.
Why not ? I'll try them both and let you know
> I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine given that tyrosine beats out tryptophan and the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC).
These are a very bad news : o I thought that
tryptophan + tyrosine would have been the perfect combo ! Anyway, tyrosine alone is not for me (not everyday at least). Negative effects of tyrosine:mild diarrhoea (which is not a big deal), excessive hunger (I eat much more but not in a compulsive way like I did on Anafranil ... I'm just hungry !)
If I don't eat I get nervous
Too much energy !
Some kind of overfocusing like episodes ... I'm so concentrated on a particular (internal or external) thing that the rest of the world disappear
less sharppositive effects
a lot of energy !it doesn't help *so* much with concentration but if I don't understand what I read (because I'm thinking of something else) I can go on without cursing ;-) it makes me assertive even with myself
I look people in their eyes (less shy)
less procrastination
final review: ritalin like effects but the duration of the effect is longer (about 12 hours) the side effects are more tolerable, the positive effects are better in many respects
sorry, I went out of tracks ! ;-)
Meanwhile, I don't think gingko would interfere with tryptophan at all.
Nice to hear it ! I have got to try it : ) as you're probably noticing trypthophan is helping me with verbal fluency ... It makes me calmer ... I'm ready to study now : ) (but maybe I'll procrastinate because I skip tyrosine ;-)
> Anyway, just some things that were bouncing around my head in lieu of sleep. YMMV. ;-)
Yesterday evening after the effect of tyrosine fade out I was sure I would have not be able to sleep ... I get a little hypo after a stimulant fades out (also with Anafranil, which has for many respects and paradoxically stimulant properties) ... Therefore I had to take Serpax (a benzo) ... I know this is not a sharp solution but sometimes I *must* sleep a decent number of hours if I don't want to be uptight and edgy the
day after ... Oh God, I'm talking so much !> Whatever else, make sure you are getting some B3 and magnesium. :-)
This is the content of Minervitam:
every capsule:
A 0,8 mg
E 10 mg
B1 1,4 mg
B2 1,6 mg
pantotenic acid (?) 6 mg (could be B3 ?)
B6 2 mg
Niacine (?) 18 mg
Vitamin C 60 mg
Magnesium 90 mg
Iron 14 mg
Zinc 15mg
Copper 1,2 mg
Manganese 10,0 mg
Iodium 0,15 mg
Vitamin D3 5,0 mg
Vitamin B12 1,0 mg
Falacine 0,20 mgIs it worth to take it in your opinion ?
Thanks for all the suggestions and care, I will answer to the other post as far as possible
Bye !
Posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 6:25:58
In reply to An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:12:43
I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine
what about to try to get the same effect SAM-E at proper doses ? (800 mg per day)
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 10:53:47
In reply to Re: Dopamine/serotonin » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 13, 2003, at 5:37:47
> >I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine given that tyrosine beats out tryptophan and the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC). Meanwhile, I don't think gingko would interfere with tryptophan at all.
>
> I hope you don't mind me butting in on your thread...LOL. It isn't "my" thread. Go right ahead. :-)
> Could you please explain what you mean by "the LNAAT can be easily saturated (IIRC)"?
LNAAT = large neutral amino acid transporter. Essentially a selective pump that allows several amino acids to cross over into the central nervous system from the blood as there is a rather formidable diffusion barrier (the blood-brain barrier or BBB). Based upon a post of Larry's, the LNAAT can accept phenylalanine, tyrosine, leucine, isoleucine, and tryptophan. However given equal concentrations of each of these amino acids in the blood, tryptophan will lose out unless there is a fair amount of blood insulin also present (carbs therefore indirectly boost tryptophan uptake).
The best analogy that I have read is to think of turnstyles at a subway station or a baseball park. There is limited throughput and some of the people are slimmer/faster/pushier than others and thus have a better chance of getting through.
Therefore at any one time, you can either "dope" for more serotonin or dopamine/norepinepherine, but not both at the same time (unless 5-HTP can take different path in than tryptophan).
> When I took the Amen Clinic brain checklist, I came out "highly probable" in four categories: ADD Inattentive Type, Cingulate System Hyperactivity, Limbic System Hyperactivity, & Basal Ganglia Hyperactivity.
Of course, the only way to know for sure to have the functional scan done.
> Some of the recommendations for those conditions are the opposites of the others.
Yeah, that's a problem.
> For the inattentive ADD he recommends, tyrosine, OPCs and gingko to raise dopamine.
That's not a totally direct effect of OPCs and gingko, IIRC.
> For cingulate gyrus overactivity, to raise serotonin: St. John's Wort, 5-HTP, tryptophan, and inositol.
I don't know how inositol works here.
> For limbic problems, to raise norepinephrine and dopamine: tyrosine, DLPA and SAM-e.
He recommends limbic problems be treated with SSRIs as well, so they can be serotonergic as well.
IIRC, the only DIRECT neurotransmitter boost from SAMe is epinepherine/adrenaline. But there are plenty of other indirect things going on I do not understand so well yet.
> For basal ganglia hyperactivity, the anti-anxiety B-vitamins and herbs.
I've not read up on the basal ganglia.
> I'm trying something to address all of those -- together, which can be a problem, as you know. As Dr. Amen notes,
>
> "Since serotonin and dopamine levels tend to counterbalance each other: whenever serotonin is raised dopamine tends to be lowered and when dopamine is raised serotonin is lowered."Partly due to the LNAAT competition. There may be other mechanisms within the brain though.
> I was hoping it would be possible to maintain a certain balance between dopamine/serotonin so one gets the benefit of both. So I cut down my tyrosine/phenylalanine doses and added some 5-HTP at night (50 mg) and also started adding a meal of potatoes/small amount of protein for the serotonin boost. It has helped, but it feels nervewracking and unpredictable. And I don't sleep well since the tyrosine. I keep waking up every couple hours, and sleeping only about 5-6 hrs. Sometimes less.
>
> Any suggestions? I already take magnesium, B vits, C, etc. and am experimenting with the TMG.You've already got the main idea: Reserve tyrosine for first-thing-in-the-morning. Gradually add on more 5-HTP until sleep improves. That's all I can suggest at this point.
If you are luckly, TMG will smooth things out and you might be able to drop precursor loading altogether. But that's only if your problem is elevated homocystiene/depressed SAMe.
You can see why I am glad I can just take TMG and not have to worry about balancing these effects out over the course of the day.
> I've been wondering if I should try tryptophan at night instead of 5-HTP. I hate to spend the money if it's going to be comparable, but from what folks are reporting, it has a different effect.
I have not read up on the particulars on how 5-HTP and tryptophan differ. All I know is that 5-HTP is the intermediate form between tryptophan and serotonin, and that 5-HTP can get into the CNS from the blood somehow.
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 11:20:44
In reply to Re: An Idea » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 6:25:58
> I don't quite understand how one would go about finding a balance between tryptophan or 5-HTP and tyrosine
>
> what about to try to get the same effect SAM-E at proper doses ? (800 mg per day)I would not recommend taking SAMe by itself unless you have had your blood homocystiene level tested. Extra SAMe once used becomes extra homocystiene, which is toxic. You need to be able to convert this extra homocystiene back into methionine via methylcobalamin or TMG if your body's own conversion rate is maxed out.
If you are pretty sure you are not overmethylated (the symptoms are pretty distinct from undermethylation) then TMG or methylcobalamin are safer to try.
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 11:36:53
In reply to Re: An Idea » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 6:14:10
> whare are you takin' at the moment ?
Multivitamin/mineral
TMG
Grape Seed OPCs
Calcium
Magnesium
Lecithin
Fish oilI had a few days where I was lethargic and my dose schedule was disrupted so my trial of piracetam stopped. I will give it another go maybe next week at higher doses. I didn't notice anything at 2400 mg/day. They have gone considerably higher in studies (but then following that would be quite expensive).
> What's exactly a borderline insufficency in perfusion in areas of brain ? Also with the help of dictionaries I didn't understand anything : o
Not enough blood flowing about in your head.
> final review: ritalin like effects but the duration of the effect is longer (about 12 hours) the side effects are more tolerable, the positive effects are better in many respects
...
> Yesterday evening after the effect of tyrosine fade out I was sure I would have not be able to sleep ... I get a little hypo after a stimulant fades out (also with Anafranil, which has for many respects and paradoxically stimulant properties) ... Therefore I had to take Serpax (a benzo) ... I know this is not a sharp solution but sometimes I *must* sleep a decent number of hours if I don't want to be uptight and edgy the
> day after ... Oh God, I'm talking so much !OK, you can try this... tyrosine when you wake up, maybe some tyrosine before lunch. Then take tryptophan with dinner and have some carbohydrates then (insulin assists tryptophan uptake throught the LNAAT).
> > Whatever else, make sure you are getting some B3 and magnesium. :-)
>
> This is the content of Minervitam:
>
> every capsule:
>
> A 0,8 mg
> E 10 mg
> B1 1,4 mg
> B2 1,6 mg
> pantotenic acid (?) 6 mg (could be B3 ?)Nope, that's B5.
> B6 2 mg
> Niacine (?) 18 mg
> Vitamin C 60 mg
> Magnesium 90 mg
> Iron 14 mg
> Zinc 15mg
> Copper 1,2 mg
> Manganese 10,0 mg
> Iodium 0,15 mg
> Vitamin D3 5,0 mg
> Vitamin B12 1,0 mgIs the "B12" cyanocobalamin or methylcobalamin?
> Falacine 0,20 mg
Hmm, don't know this one.
> Is it worth to take it in your opinion ?
I'll need to think about it. It's not giving you B3 though. How many capsules do you take?
> Thanks for all the suggestions and care, I will answer to the other post as far as possible
> Bye !You're welcome. :-)
Posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 14:07:30
In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 11:36:53
> Grape Seed OPCs
Which is the active ingrendient of Grape Seed ? I asked about it to the pharmacist and he asked me what I need in particular ...> Calcium
> Magnesium
> Lecithin
> Fish oilUff ... life is too short to try all this stuff !!! ;-) (I prefer to try them separately at first to understand if they affect me and how)
Ok, let's start from fish oil ... how much ?
are you taking it for ADHD, OCD or possibile BP ?> Not enough blood flowing about in your head.
You could bet I have that problem ;-)
> OK, you can try this... tyrosine when you wake up, maybe some tyrosine before lunch. Then take tryptophan with dinner and have some carbohydrates then (insulin assists tryptophan uptake throught the LNAAT).
I will try it. But why did you say that tyrosine washes out the benefits of triptophan ? Aren't the two paths completely indipendent ? (Of course I'm asking because I don't know)
> Is the "B12" cyanocobalamin or methylcobalamin?
There is nothing more written on the label.
>
> > Is it worth to take it in your opinion ?> I'll need to think about it. It's not giving you B3 though. How many capsules do you take?
Just one per day. Is magnesium in it enough ?
I'll try to ask for B3 ... I wouldn't be astonished to discover is not OCT in Italy : oToday I took 1000 mg of tryptophan (500+500)
It helps with concentration but in a different way than tyrosine. I would say that tyrosine helps with not going out of the tracks but concentration (in reading) is better on tryptophane. So this could confirm the thesis that my concentration problem could be also serotonin-relatedDopamine AND serotonin related ? that is to say ADHD+OCD, simplicistically speaking ... I don't think I have particular problems with NE ... my energy level is normally normal while on 500mg of tyrosine is "more" than normal ... sorry if I have said some very stupid thing ;-)
"Side-effects" of triptophane: sleepiness, carbo-cravings, and ... surprise ... a little social phobia !
adjuntive questions: which is the average half life of tyrosine and triptophane ?
More than one poster said something like this: "I feel better *the day after* having taken supplements (if I skip the dose)" ... I find this generally true for me (not only for supplements but for almost everything I've taken) ... do you have any idea about this ?
Ok, thanks for all in advance ... I have sore throat again, hope it's not tryptophan ! (same problem with anafranil, maybe dued to salivar problems and consequent bladder infection)
Bye !
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 21:51:17
In reply to Re: An Idea, posted by Francesco on November 13, 2003, at 14:07:30
> > Grape Seed OPCs
> Which is the active ingrendient of Grape Seed ? I asked about it to the pharmacist and he asked me what I need in particular ...OPCs = oligomeric proanthocyandins
Extracts from grape seed, cranberry seed, and pine bark (French trademarked as Pycnogenol)
This can be hit or miss. I take it for the anti-oxidant property. I think it's helped with my skin, but not my head so much.
> > Calcium
> > Magnesium
> > Lecithin
> > Fish oil
>
> Uff ... life is too short to try all this stuff !!! ;-) (I prefer to try them separately at first to understand if they affect me and how)I brought Ca+Mg on at the same time, and the lecithin+fish oil at another time.
> Ok, let's start from fish oil ... how much ?
> are you taking it for ADHD, OCD or possibile BP ?I no longer think too much in those categories anymore really.
Lecithin and fish oil improve my visual clarity and connection with the world... I think.
> > OK, you can try this... tyrosine when you wake up, maybe some tyrosine before lunch. Then take tryptophan with dinner and have some carbohydrates then (insulin assists tryptophan uptake throught the LNAAT).
>
> I will try it. But why did you say that tyrosine washes out the benefits of triptophan ? Aren't the two paths completely indipendent ? (Of course I'm asking because I don't know)No, both can only go through the LNAAT. And tyrosine will dominate unless you have lots of insulin in your blood.
> > Is the "B12" cyanocobalamin or methylcobalamin?
Both can be called B12, but the methylcobalamin form is better from the standoint of improving methylation.
> There is nothing more written on the label.
> >
> > > Is it worth to take it in your opinion ?Depends. What are your other options? It's almost certainly better than nothing.
> > I'll need to think about it. It's not giving you B3 though. How many capsules do you take?
>
> Just one per day. Is magnesium in it enough ?
> I'll try to ask for B3 ... I wouldn't be astonished to discover is not OCT in Italy : oOne of those a day doesn't look like very much, compared even to the US RDA. Larry would break it down better than I could though. I'd suggest you ask him about it.
> adjuntive questions: which is the average half life of tyrosine and triptophane ?
Beats me. They were rather short acting for me (~4 hours), but I don't know about you or other people.
> More than one poster said something like this: "I feel better *the day after* having taken supplements (if I skip the dose)" ... I find this generally true for me (not only for supplements but for almost everything I've taken) ... do you have any idea about this ?
Nope.
> Ok, thanks for all in advance ... I have sore throat again, hope it's not tryptophan ! (same problem with anafranil, maybe dued to salivar problems and consequent bladder infection)
>
> Bye !Keep at it. :-)
Posted by JLx on November 15, 2003, at 6:00:18
In reply to Re: Dopamine/serotonin » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 10:53:47
>tryptophan will lose out unless there is a fair amount of blood insulin also present (carbs therefore indirectly boost tryptophan uptake).
I read Judith Wurtman's book, "The Serotonin Solution" about that, which is where I got the idea to eat potatoes to boost serotonin. She said that the carb to protein ratio should be 5:1. She also said that starchy-carbs and sugar would give this trypto-boosting effect but that fruit would not. I don't recall WHY not, though.
The problem for me is that I'm one of those who crave carbs more the more I eat them, so this is not a good general solution.
> > For limbic problems, to raise norepinephrine and dopamine: tyrosine, DLPA and SAM-e.> He recommends limbic problems be treated with SSRIs as well, so they can be serotonergic as well.
Yes, I noticed that too. They can't be very serotonergic though, or I think I'd be sleeping better, as I was before I started taking tyrosine.
> IIRC, the only DIRECT neurotransmitter boost from SAMe is epinepherine/adrenaline. But there are plenty of other indirect things going on I do not understand so well yet.
What I noticed about SAMe was the physical boost of energy it seemed to give me.
> You've already got the main idea: Reserve tyrosine for first-thing-in-the-morning. Gradually add on more 5-HTP until sleep improves. That's all I can suggest at this point.Weirdly enough, if I take 100 mg of 5-HTP instead of 50 at night, I feel worse in the morning (and haven't slept any better either). I ordered some tryptophan because it sounds like from my reading here and there that it is considered better for insomnia than 5-HTP. I'm hoping....
> If you are luckly, TMG will smooth things out and you might be able to drop precursor loading altogether. But that's only if your problem is elevated homocystiene/depressed SAMe.I suspect that it's more complicated than that, especially as I have hormone fluctuations into the mix as well.
> You can see why I am glad I can just take TMG and not have to worry about balancing these effects out over the course of the day.
Indeed.
Thanks for your help.
JL
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 15, 2003, at 6:38:55
In reply to Re: What's up? » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 13:31:23
> > Tomorrow morning I asked about B6 but the herborist told me that the pure form is not OCT in Italy : o How much B6 would you suggest per day ?
>
> 25-50 mg seems to be right. Somewhere above 75-100 mg you can start causing nerve damage in the long run.B6 neuropathy can occur at doses around 100 mg/day, but it seems to be due to idiopathic factors (unexplained differences between individuals). Most clearly defined B6 neuropathies occur after ingestion of gram doses daily for years, and even those are reversible upon discontinuation of the B6. See abstracts here:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20021101/msgs/126678.html
Posted by Francesco on November 16, 2003, at 6:28:31
In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 21:51:17
Ok, today I took tryptophane + ginko. Let's see if "the man" ipothesis is correct ;-)
One of things I noticed the first day I took tryptophane was that the colours look much more vivid. One other is that I'm experiencing some muscle pain (slight anyway, but boring). I don't know if the second is co-related but I seem to remember something like this when I took Prozac.
The third is the same old song: less emphatetic. But, and here comes the new ipothesis, maybe it's not meds' faults. Maybe it's just me. Maybe the meds give only me the "strenght" to be what I am. Very depressing field, so, let's move on ;-)
> I brought Ca+Mg on at the same time, and the lecithin+fish oil at another time.
> I no longer think too much in those categories anymore really.Yeah, I think so. It's just to understand more easily what we're talking about. The OCD-thing, the ADHD thing and so on would be better. The old categories could be usuful only to suggest the first choice meds. But as we have discovered very early first choice doesn't mean best.
By the way, I'm curious to know how I'd react to a mood stabilizer. One day or another ...
> Lecithin and fish oil improve my visual clarity and connection with the world... I think.
Ok, connection with the world it's what I need : ) So I think tomorrow I'll buy some epa-dha. How much do you take per day ?
> Beats me. They were rather short acting for me (~4 hours), but I don't know about you or other people.It result I'm a slow metabolizer of anything I take. If I take 500 mg tyrosine in the morning I'm energized all day long and I have trouble sleeping at night. I wonder if this could indicate some sort of physical problems.
how is going on your site ? and, above all, could you post again the link ? (I lost it : /)
Posted by Francesco on November 16, 2003, at 6:34:53
In reply to Re: What's up? » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 13:31:23
> We could take this over to private e-mail if you want.
Yeah, thanks, it would be nice for me. can I post here my mail ?
Posted by DSCH on November 16, 2003, at 10:35:07
In reply to Re: What's up? II » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 16, 2003, at 6:34:53
> > We could take this over to private e-mail if you want.
> Yeah, thanks, it would be nice for me. can I post here my mail ?No need to. You can find my address on my home page (broken up to prevent web-crawl generated spam).
Posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 8:45:13
In reply to Re: An Idea » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 16, 2003, at 6:28:31
> The third is the same old song: less emphatetic. But, and here comes the new ipothesis, maybe it's not meds' faults. Maybe it's just me. Maybe the meds give only me the "strenght" to be what I am. Very depressing field, so, let's move on ;-)
I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)
Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 9:17:50
In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 8:45:13
> I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
>
> I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
>
> I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)(Let me preface all of the following with IMO, IMHO, maybe, and/or YMMV so I can use direct language for a change.)
I think you need to look at in layers of scale and in time.
Scale: you are not a monolith but a society of (usually, ideally) cooperating subroutines. And ultimately all of these rest upon the fuctioning of individual neurons. 'Self' as a seamless construct is an interesting illusion projected at some level of our consciousness, probably to make us 'saner' and less prone to detached self-exploration back when there was food to be gathered and game to be hunted.
Time: you won't alter your memories, so in that sense you retain continuity with who you were. You may alter how you reflect on them though.
Posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 11:39:29
In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by JLx on November 21, 2003, at 8:45:13
> I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
>
> I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
>
> I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)I totally agree with everything you said.
I use the terms like "my real self" only to indicate what I usually am when I don't take any psychotropic substance.What I wanted to say is that the meds that have helped my concentration problems best are serotoninergic and that serotoninergic meds tend to lessen my empathy and that this bothers me.
Posted by Francesco on November 21, 2003, at 11:52:54
In reply to Re: An Idea » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 9:17:50
> > I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
> >
> > I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
> >
> > I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)
>
> (Let me preface all of the following with IMO, IMHO, maybe, and/or YMMV so I can use direct language for a change.)
>
> I think you need to look at in layers of scale and in time.
>
> Scale: you are not a monolith but a society of (usually, ideally) cooperating subroutines. And ultimately all of these rest upon the fuctioning of individual neurons. 'Self' as a seamless construct is an interesting illusion projected at some level of our consciousness, probably to make us 'saner' and less prone to detached self-exploration back when there was food to be gathered and game to be hunted.
>
> Time: you won't alter your memories, so in that sense you retain continuity with who you were. You may alter how you reflect on them though.I totally agree also with DSCH with just one more thing to add. We need to talk about "selves" if we want to understand each other. Ordinary language is necessarily inaccurate but his inaccuracy is useful for many purposes.
Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 12:24:36
In reply to Re: An Idea » DSCH, posted by Francesco on November 21, 2003, at 11:52:54
> > > I used to have a vague idea that we had a "self" that meds/supplements/whatever altered one way or another -- more my "true" self, or not.
> > >
> > > I don't think that way anymore. I think we're a product of our brain chemistry -- alter that and our "Self" is altered.
> > >
> > > I found this a bit depressing at first -- Am "I" only chemical soup? -- but now I think of it as potentially continued renewal. ;)
> >
> > (Let me preface all of the following with IMO, IMHO, maybe, and/or YMMV so I can use direct language for a change.)
> >
> > I think you need to look at in layers of scale and in time.
> >
> > Scale: you are not a monolith but a society of (usually, ideally) cooperating subroutines. And ultimately all of these rest upon the fuctioning of individual neurons. 'Self' as a seamless construct is an interesting illusion projected at some level of our consciousness, probably to make us 'saner' and less prone to detached self-exploration back when there was food to be gathered and game to be hunted.
> >
> > Time: you won't alter your memories, so in that sense you retain continuity with who you were. You may alter how you reflect on them though.
>
> I totally agree also with DSCH with just one more thing to add. We need to talk about "selves" if we want to understand each other. Ordinary language is necessarily inaccurate but his inaccuracy is useful for many purposes.I don't think "selves" is quite the right word as these subroutines are too fragmentary on their own.
Looking at my own post I think "illusion" is also not a good word choice, as having a sense of proper self is a indication that these routines are well integrated.
Tourette's is one disorder where a subroutine or set of them makes their presence known by failing to cooperate fully. Tourette-ers often speak of the tics and rituals coming from "It", separate from what they percieve as their own self.
People who have had their corpus callosum cut can be trained to perform certain tasks while blindfolded. When the blindfold is removed so they can see themselves performing that task they'll remark that "I didn't do that!" or something on that order. The "I" in this case being the set of routines incorportating language, on the left side of the brain.
Posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 16:54:32
In reply to Re: An Idea » Francesco , posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 12:24:36
Sorry DSCH I was saying something different, and not very important. I was just saying that even if the sense of having a self doesn't indicate there is something like the self, we have to use words like "I" and "You" because they're useful.
I'm beginning to think triptophan is not for me. It makes some of my ADHD syntoms worse and makes me more argumentative. Now it's out and I can feel it's out.
Can you help me in make the picture clearer ?
My syntomps (without any meds) are:
Careless about the future.
Tendency to procrastinate.
No anxiety.
No depression.
Problems in concentrating in reading, watching a movie, and so on
Problems in concentrating gets worse when I try to concentrate
Daydreaming most part of the day
Dyslexic sometimes (anyway I'm not sure "dyslexic" is the right term)
Easily bored (expecially when I'm alone)
Shy
I interrupt people when they talk to say stupid (sometimes funny) things
Egocentric
Not agitated
Problems with motivation
Big problems with organization
Problems with autorithy and following rules
Problems with following also the rules I give to myself
Incostant in relationships
"I don't know today what I'll do tomorrow and I don't know now what I'll do after this posting"
...In your opinion could all this indicate some other kind of ADHD (Amen types) other than inhattentive ?
Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 19:32:48
In reply to which adhd ? » DSCH, posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 16:54:32
> Can you help me in make the picture clearer ?
I'll try.
> My syntomps (without any meds) are:
>
> Careless about the future.
> Tendency to procrastinate.Generally common to all types.
> No anxiety.
> No depression.OK, this rules out limbic ADD.
> Problems in concentrating in reading, watching a movie, and so on
> Problems in concentrating gets worse when I try to concentrate
> Daydreaming most part of the dayAgain, generally common. Daydreaming would tend to point towards inattentive-type, while activities involving physical movement more classic ADHD.
> Dyslexic sometimes (anyway I'm not sure "dyslexic" is the right term)
Trouble intrepreting letters, numbers, writing mistakes/transpositions, spelling? Temporal lobe?
> Easily bored (expecially when I'm alone)Common to multiple types. Could be a sign that you are naturally extrovert.
> Shy
Maybe inattentive. Maybe not even necessarily morbid though. ;-) Perhaps a sign of mild social anxiety (yes you can be an extrovert and have this too! it just makes life that much more difficult) ;-)
> I interrupt people when they talk to say stupid (sometimes funny) things
Classic ADHD mostly. But this is something in Tourette's I believe too. Temporal lobe?
> Egocentric
Normal. LOL :-D
> Not agitated
Inattentive type.
> Problems with motivation
> Big problems with organizationCommon to all basically.
> Problems with autorithy and following rules
> Problems with following also the rules I give to myselfSomewhat more interesting and characteristic I think. Some of that oppositional-defiant going on maybe. Once again, Touretters can have this too. Temporal lobe?
> Incostant in relationships
> "I don't know today what I'll do tomorrow and I don't know now what I'll do after this posting"Common to all types.
OK... based on this what do I think?
I think we can safely elminate limbic ADD.
The oppositional behavior, blurted witicisms are not common to straight inattentive type ADD. I think we can set that aside too.
You are not restless or agitated though and tend towards daydreaming so I will set aside classic ADHD.
OK, we are left with:
Overfocus ADD
http://www.mindfixers.com/amensub3.html
(OCD + ADD)We've been here already though. Why did Anafranil, which was a godsend for your study habits and writing (your Anfranil posts remain by far the superior in terms of your writing to the Board... but maybe not when it comes to actually *communicating*!), make so many over things worse? Amen prefers Effexor, but that's basically a cleaner version of Anafranil's psychopharmacological profile (no receptor anatagonisms). I think we should concentrate on the remaining two then.
Temporal lobe ADD
http://www.mindfixers.com/amensub5.html
(aggression, paranoia, atypical pains, vision/reading problems + ADD)Ring-of-fire ADD
http://www.mindfixers.com/amensub6.html
(resembles bipolar disorder in certain respects, takes elements from overfocus and temporal lobe ADD)Anti-convulsants are what Amen usually resorts to for TL-ADD and RoF-ADD.
Serotonergic meds (and by extension probably tryptophan as well) tend to make temporal lobe problems worse, but help the cingulate problems. This might be the explanation for your mixed responses to Anafranil, SSRIs, and tryptophan.
Here are temporal lobe supplements according to Amen:
http://www.brainplace.com/bp/supplements/default.aspGABA (but does this cross the BBB?)
Phosphatidylserine (or boost B12, folic acid, essential fatty acids, and the other phosphatidyls (i.e fish oil and lecithin))
Gingko
Vitamin E
Ibuprofen (anti-inflammatory)I would say niacin/niacinamide (which your multi lacks IIRC) would be a good addition to the list. Picamilon (Niacin bonded to GABA) might even be ideal.
I think we have an explanation for why gingko and omega-3 have been better for you than the others so far.
Posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
In reply to which adhd ? » DSCH, posted by francesco on November 21, 2003, at 16:54:32
I didn't properly cap the last post off.
Since Anafranil and tryptophan help your "concentration" I think that's a sign of cingulate trouble (overfocus into dreamland?).
The oppositional-type stuff, the physical "oddities" (pains), and their becoming worse on tryptophan (and anafranil too?) point towards the temporal lobes.
Therefore, I think RoF-ADD makes the most sense now. In your case I think (sans meds) the cingulate problems dominate somewhat. On most meds you help the cingulate but then the temporal lobes get worse.
If you take stuff like gingko, GABA (or picamilon), niacinamide, omega-3, and magnesium, you might be able to start tolerating some tryptophan or St. John's Wort.
Amen, in his book "Healing ADD", tells of a juvenile patient with RoF-ADD who benefited greatly from a combination of GABA, omega-3, and SJW.
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:02:37
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
Temporal lobe ADD causes symptoms of inattention and/or hyperactivity-impulsivity, plus mood instability, aggression, mild paranoia, anxiety with little provocation, atypical headaches or abdominal pain, visual or auditory illusions, and learning problems (especially reading and auditory processing).
OK. What follows is me without any meds or supplements:
Inattention yes
Hyperactivity no
Impulsivity yesMood instability yes
Aggression no
Mild paranoia no
Anxiety with little provocation noAtypical headaches or abdominal pain NO
(this is important, since the above syntomps seem to depend on what you mean with every single term)Visually or auditory illusions NO
(idem)Learning problem yes
I'll try to do the same for all the other subtypes. Thank you for coaching ;-)
Posted by Francesco on November 22, 2003, at 11:10:45
In reply to My (non-MD'ed) conclusion: moderate, skewed RoF » francesco, posted by DSCH on November 21, 2003, at 20:15:58
periods of panic or fear for no specific reason,
NO
periods of spaciness or confusion,
dark thoughts (such as suicidal or homicidal thoughts),
NO
significant social withdrawal
NO
frequent periods of deja vu
NO
irritability
yes/no
rages
yes/no
(not significant without meds)and visual changes (such as frequently seeing shadows out of the corner of the eye).
no
***
with anafranil (I refer to it only because I have took it for years and then it's easier)
i have a big YES in:Dark thoughts
Significant social withdrawal
Irritability
Deja vu !
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