![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 8 to 32 of 87. Go back in thread:
Posted by DSCH on November 10, 2003, at 13:18:01
In reply to Re: B12: Methylcobalamin vs. Cyanocobalamin » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 13:08:35
> What I said, in reference to the diagram, was:
> "Note that cyanocobalamin *consumes* SAMe. That's why methylcobalamin is the preferred form of B-12."Ah yes, my mistake. :-o
Posted by McPac on November 10, 2003, at 17:54:55
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 9:11:12
"A small percentage of persons with sufficient dietary methionine cannot efficiently produce SAMe --- These persons need supplemental SAMe, and not methionine or TMG and are the exception to the rule."
>>>>>>>>>> I wonder if I am in this small percentage? Pfeiffer recently increased my methionine to 2,500 mg/day, as 1,500 mg/day for MANY months wasn't doing anything....in this small % of folks, WHY is their methionine not converted to SAMe?
Posted by DSCH on November 10, 2003, at 20:38:47
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help?, posted by McPac on November 10, 2003, at 17:54:55
> "A small percentage of persons with sufficient dietary methionine cannot efficiently produce SAMe --- These persons need supplemental SAMe, and not methionine or TMG and are the exception to the rule."
>
> >>>>>>>>>> I wonder if I am in this small percentage? Pfeiffer recently increased my methionine to 2,500 mg/day, as 1,500 mg/day for MANY months wasn't doing anything....in this small % of folks, WHY is their methionine not converted to SAMe?Not enough ATP or magnesium to spare from other duties? A deficency in the enzymes that accomplish this task?
Posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:22:16
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 9:11:12
> I don't understand Pfeiffer's argument to avoid folate.
Well, I'm glad to hear you say that because it seemed to contradict everything else I've read. What gave me pause is that this is this guy's life's work! "How can he be so wrong?", I thought. I thought I just was misunderstanding this stuff because the chemistry is incomprehensible to me.
> Methionine doesn't. Not literally. Only if it's been converted to SAMe.
>
> > TMG can provide a methyl group only to the extent that there is insufficient FOLATE/B-12 to do the job.
>
> Not true. B-12 and TMG are both methyl-donors, but the molecule which takes part in methylation reactions that are of concern in mood disorders is SAMe. B-12 and TMG provide the methyl group to homocysteine to turn it back into methionine.
>
> Here's a visual representation:
>
> http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/fulltext/meth-fig1.jpg
>
> Note that cyanocobalamin *consumes* SAMe. That's why methylcobalamin is the preferred form of B-12.I've heard that the methylcobalamin is preferred, but not that the cyanocobalamin form of B12 was actually CONTRAINDICATED...is that what you mean there? (If one wants to increase SAMe) I bought some of the methyl form, but have been taking it with the other because I had two bottles of the other.
> Your body recycles homocysteine to methionine because dietary sources of methionine may be unreliable (in an historical sense, in evolutionary history). If that cycle gets stalled at homocysteine, only dietary supply can give you methionine. Moreover, homocysteine is doing damage that places even more burden on SAMe. It can set up a vicious cycle. If you think of homocysteine as the basic raw material, which is then methylated (to methionine), then adenosinated (to SAMe), it makes sense to have most of that core stuff already to use, rather than used up. That's just my way of looking at it.Ok ... we don't have to ever worry about having not-enough-homocysteine to do the conversion (ultimately) to SAMe if we have methionine per diet but we do have to worry about excess homocysteing if enough of it's not converting. So the core stuff we want to increase is either/ both the methionine or the anti-homocysteine. Hence the usefulness of TMG, methionine supplementation (or per diet) and other anti-homocysteine agents such as the B vits. Btw, I know eggs are a dietary source of methionine, and I eat them regularly and even looked forward to eating them...until I started taking SAMe, when they became less of a draw. (I'm a firm believer that the foods we find ourselves craving or drawn to are often an indication of what our body actually NEEDS....although I didn't notice these things very well until I started taking magnesium.)
> Which seems contrary to earlier statements, non?
> > [Quoting Dr. Walsh] TMG can be very useful in augmenting methionine therapy along with B-6/P-5-P , serine, etc. The challenge is to supply enough methyl groups to help the patient, without creating dangerously high levels of homocysteine.
> I don't understand this statement at all. Supplying methyl groups reduces homocysteine, unless all the "supply" is in the form of cyanocobalamin.It's enough to make me doubt the entire Pfeiffer Clinic, quite frankly, if this guy is supposed to be one of the big shots there.
> > So, is folic acid contraindicated for the undermethylated or not?
> My personal opinion is, no, it is not contraindicated. However, you have to "do the experiment" on yourself to have any insight whatsoever.I've usually taken a B complex but never noticed feeling either better or worse taking it or not taking it suggesting to me that I'm not very sensitive to folic acid in either direction.
> > I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid.
>
> Yes. Good idea.Good, glad I got something right out of all that. :)
> > (I had a great result with SAMe, but found it too expensive and when I was taking it as my only anti-depressant remedy, that it pooped out after about 2 months.) I recall Larry's explanation to Ron Hill re why this might happen and concluded that with methionine, it might not.
>
> Let's hope.Indeed! SAMe pooping out was very crushing to my hopes of realizing a dream for natural remedies in place of ADs.
> > Should I be concerned about the folic acid in my B-complex? Is 400 or 800 mg per day a good amount or is it contraindicated? (I don't eat green leafy veggies, so I figure my dietary amount is pretty neglible.) Is this something one could evaluate "in real time" with trial and error? (i.e. take some TODAY, feel better or worse TODAY)
>
> I don't think it would be that quick. How fast did you respond to SAMe?Most recently, I felt better within a day or two, but I was also newly supplementing with tyrosine too. When I tried SAMe previously it was also prior to magnesium supplementation. My experience now is that ANYTHING I tried in the past before mg, works differently now.
> From your next post:
> "So, "methionine, calcium, magnesium and B6" is SAMe equivalent? "
>
> Presuming you form SAMe in reasonable amounts, i.e. you don't have a genetic defect in SAMe synthesis.
>
> There is no clear "one-size-fits-all" answer, IMHO. Try a nutrient, or groups of nutrients(based on reasonable educated guesses), and see if they help you feel better, or not.Right. Thanks! :)
JL
Posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:31:27
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 10, 2003, at 9:11:12
> > I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid.
>
> Yes. Good idea.On that, any idea what might be a reasonable amount of each to take...to achieve a SAMe-like result without raising homocysteine too high? (I can't afford the blood test at this time.)
Posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:43:40
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on November 10, 2003, at 12:40:29
> Also, I find DMAE's being on the contraindication list for under-methylated persons curious. Sahelain classifies it as a methyl-donor.
Graham Blake has that same info on the link you posted previously in your exchange with Francesco. (His website has really been spruced up!) http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/condition.php?category=neuro&condition=Depression
I wonder what the deal is with choline too, if they're right or wrong on that one. What do you think? I was taking a choline/inositol combo, and also taking additional lecithin. I stopped taking both recently per that recommendation but am not sure if I feel an impact.
> I will again state that in my experience, the most dramatic thing that kicked TMG "on" was taking supplementary magnesium.
I feel as if I have a whole new baseline for physical reactions since I've been taking magnesium. I was tempted to say, "a whole new body"...wouldn't that be nice? ;)
You're doing ok on TMG? And no longer any amino acids, I believe you said on another thread. I couldn't understand why you thought TMG would be so helpful until I really tried to sort out all that methyl info.
I've been really helped by the tyrosine, however, and am leery of cutting it out altogether though I have cut it down from my original dose.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 11, 2003, at 8:35:39
In reply to Re: DMAE, choline, TMG » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:43:40
> I wonder what the deal is with choline too, if they're right or wrong on that one. What do you think? I was taking a choline/inositol combo, and also taking additional lecithin. I stopped taking both recently per that recommendation but am not sure if I feel an impact.Just for the sake of getting past the terminology, choline is tetramethylglycine, while betaine is trimethylglycine. If choline donates a methyl group, which it does in some reactions, it becomes TMG. Supplemental TMG will also be somewhat converted into choline.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 11, 2003, at 9:07:07
In reply to Re: Another question » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:31:27
>
> > > I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid.
> >
> > Yes. Good idea.
> On that, any idea what might be a reasonable amount of each to take...to achieve a SAMe-like result without raising homocysteine too high? (I can't afford the blood test at this time.)First, you won't raise homocysteine, if you're taking TMG.
The dose of TMG that is effective varies substantially in different people. I can't tolerate more than a couple grams, tops. And I can't take it every day. I take 500-1000 mg, occasionally. But I know people who take eight or ten grams, every day.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 11, 2003, at 9:17:12
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:22:16
> > I don't understand Pfeiffer's argument to avoid folate.
>
> Well, I'm glad to hear you say that because it seemed to contradict everything else I've read. What gave me pause is that this is this guy's life's work! "How can he be so wrong?", I thought. I thought I just was misunderstanding this stuff because the chemistry is incomprehensible to me.I think you're comprehending quite well. My thinking is that Pfeiffer didn't keep up with more recent work. His thinking fossilized. Good start, but no finish.
> I've heard that the methylcobalamin is preferred, but not that the cyanocobalamin form of B12 was actually CONTRAINDICATED...is that what you mean there?If the diagrammed pathways were all there were to consider, it would be contraindicated. But that's not what I meant. You do get a benefit from cyanocobalamin, despite the fact that it seems to use up the very stuff you're trying to create, at a molecular ratio of 1:1. It looks like there should be no net benefit, but there obviously is one.
> (If one wants to increase SAMe) I bought some of the methyl form, but have been taking it with the other because I had two bottles of the other.
I take both, too, and for the same reason.
> So the core stuff we want to increase is either/ both the methionine or the anti-homocysteine. Hence the usefulness of TMG, methionine supplementation (or per diet) and other anti-homocysteine agents such as the B vits.That's the take-home message, yes.
> Btw, I know eggs are a dietary source of methionine, and I eat them regularly and even looked forward to eating them...until I started taking SAMe, when they became less of a draw. (I'm a firm believer that the foods we find ourselves craving or drawn to are often an indication of what our body actually NEEDS....although I didn't notice these things very well until I started taking magnesium.)
Cravings can be good indicators, but they can also just be cravings.
> It's enough to make me doubt the entire Pfeiffer Clinic, quite frankly, if this guy is supposed to be one of the big shots there.
There's a lot of good in the Pfeiffer conceptualization. Recognizing some flaws does not invalidate the entire body of work. Unfortunately, recognizing the flaws is the harder part.
> > > So, is folic acid contraindicated for the undermethylated or not?
>
> > My personal opinion is, no, it is not contraindicated. However, you have to "do the experiment" on yourself to have any insight whatsoever.
>
> I've usually taken a B complex but never noticed feeling either better or worse taking it or not taking it suggesting to me that I'm not very sensitive to folic acid in either direction.It can't hurt to take B-vitamins. That's my bottom line concept. Can't hurt, might help, might not notice the help.
> > I don't think it would be that quick. How fast did you respond to SAMe?
>
> Most recently, I felt better within a day or two, but I was also newly supplementing with tyrosine too. When I tried SAMe previously it was also prior to magnesium supplementation. My experience now is that ANYTHING I tried in the past before mg, works differently now.I respond to TMG within one hour. Just curious. I never used SAMe. Too expensive, and if you're prone to hyperhomocysteinemia, it's exactly the wrong thing to use.
> > From your next post:
> > "So, "methionine, calcium, magnesium and B6" is SAMe equivalent? "
> >
> > Presuming you form SAMe in reasonable amounts, i.e. you don't have a genetic defect in SAMe synthesis.
> >
> > There is no clear "one-size-fits-all" answer, IMHO. Try a nutrient, or groups of nutrients(based on reasonable educated guesses), and see if they help you feel better, or not.
>
> Right. Thanks! :)
>
> JL
Welcome.Lar
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 10:35:45
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 11, 2003, at 9:17:12
> > > I don't understand Pfeiffer's argument to avoid folate.
> >
> > Well, I'm glad to hear you say that because it seemed to contradict everything else I've read. What gave me pause is that this is this guy's life's work! "How can he be so wrong?", I thought. I thought I just was misunderstanding this stuff because the chemistry is incomprehensible to me.
>
> I think you're comprehending quite well. My thinking is that Pfeiffer didn't keep up with more recent work. His thinking fossilized. Good start, but no finish.Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD, passed on in 1988 not very long after he and William Walsh, PhD (PhD in chemical engineering, worked into hair analysis and orthomolecular psychiatry via his volunteer work at Illinois prisons while an employee of Argonne National Laboratory) compared notes.
http://www.hriptc.org/introducing_HRIxPTC.htm
Posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 11:20:41
In reply to Re: DMAE, choline, TMG » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:43:40
> I wonder what the deal is with choline too, if they're right or wrong on that one. What do you think? I was taking a choline/inositol combo, and also taking additional lecithin. I stopped taking both recently per that recommendation but am not sure if I feel an impact.
As I consume virtually no eggs and milk, I have started taking lecithin which has both phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylinositol. I started fish oil at the same time. I noticed a modest improvement from this in visual clarity and greater tendency to feel "grounded" in the present objective/subjective outer reality. Having read a little about the dissociative drugs (DXM/DXO, Ketamine) I feel that before all this, I was "naturally" dissociated to some degree!
Regarding inositol: I took it for a number of weeks in August. I had what I first believed to be a quite strange reaction (but in the end, postive) to the first dose, however I think that experience was more likely a result of the "Sacksian" cumulative tinkering I had been doing on myself up to that point (I would recommend seeing the deNero/Williams movie and getting the book "Awakenings"). The parallel was erie enough for me to worry that I would run into an analgous predicament to his post-encephalitic patients on L-DOPA, but fortunately most of those concerns of mine have faded in the months since then as things stabilized.
For a number of weeks there I felt like the neurochemical equivalent to the semi-transparent model of the human body! :-/ ;-)
> > I will again state that in my experience, the most dramatic thing that kicked TMG "on" was taking supplementary magnesium.
>
> I feel as if I have a whole new baseline for physical reactions since I've been taking magnesium. I was tempted to say, "a whole new body"...wouldn't that be nice? ;)
>
> You're doing ok on TMG? And no longer any amino acids, I believe you said on another thread. I couldn't understand why you thought TMG would be so helpful until I really tried to sort out all that methyl info.
>
> I've been really helped by the tyrosine, however, and am leery of cutting it out altogether though I have cut it down from my original dose.Yes, although I had great successes with DLPA, protein powder drinks, and L-tyrosine (at various times), they were "brittle" and I was dismayed at finding it necessary to treat myself at such short intervals. I also found it unconvincing that amino acid metabolism was my root problem. So I eventually was brought around to reconsider methylation, which I had discounted due to a less than impressive response to TMG (pre-Mg).
Posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 16:59:44
In reply to Re: Confused about methylation...Larry H., DSCH, help? » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 11, 2003, at 7:22:16
"SAMe pooping out was very crushing to my hopes of realizing a dream for natural remedies in place of ADs".
>>>> Have you tried tryptophan?
Posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:11:58
In reply to Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988) » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 10:35:45
"I respond to TMG within one hour. Just curious. I never used SAMe. Too expensive, and if you're prone to hyperhomocysteinemia, it's exactly the wrong thing to use".
Lar---WHAT do you notice the TMG doing for you?
JLx, what do you notice also?
I seem to notice very little from supplements...but not that glorious tryptophan though, THAT I notice!Lar, so are you saying that SAMe
is WRONG to take if you have high homocysteine levels? Later!
Posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:21:18
In reply to Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:11:58
I wonder why one of the nurses at Pfeiffer said for me to get some SAMe...maybe the methionine and TMG that I take would counter the homocysteine-elevating properties of the SAMe, while I'd still be getting the AD effect of the SAMe??
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2003, at 6:43:46
In reply to Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:11:58
> "I respond to TMG within one hour. Just curious. I never used SAMe. Too expensive, and if you're prone to hyperhomocysteinemia, it's exactly the wrong thing to use".
>
> Lar---WHAT do you notice the TMG doing for you?Increased physical and mental energy, focus.
> I seem to notice very little from supplements...but not that glorious tryptophan though, THAT I notice!
>
> Lar, so are you saying that SAMe
> is WRONG to take if you have high homocysteine levels? Later!SAMe turns into homocysteine when its used up. Deal with the homocysteine, by turning it back into methionine, and maybe you don't need SAMe supps at all.
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2003, at 6:44:43
In reply to Re: Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:21:18
> I wonder why one of the nurses at Pfeiffer said for me to get some SAMe...maybe the methionine and TMG that I take would counter the homocysteine-elevating properties of the SAMe, while I'd still be getting the AD effect of the SAMe??
They're clutching at straws, dude. Trying to squeeze success out of failure. IMHO.
Posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:11:13
In reply to Re: Another question » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on November 11, 2003, at 9:07:07
> >
> > > > I'm not sure I understood that distinction about the slow SAMe cycle, but what I concluded was, not knowing if I'm a "slow cycler" or not that I'd hedge my bets and take both TMG AND methionine...using the TMG to counteract homocysteine for one thing, especially if I decrease folic acid.
> > >
> > > Yes. Good idea.
>
>
> > On that, any idea what might be a reasonable amount of each to take...to achieve a SAMe-like result without raising homocysteine too high? (I can't afford the blood test at this time.)
>
> First, you won't raise homocysteine, if you're taking TMG.
>
> The dose of TMG that is effective varies substantially in different people. I can't tolerate more than a couple grams, tops. And I can't take it every day. I take 500-1000 mg, occasionally. But I know people who take eight or ten grams, every day.Ok, I know I have to experiment with how it feels but wrt homocysteine, what if there is an imbalance between the homocysteine-increasing effect of methionine and the homocysteine-lowering effect of TMG? Iow, do I have to make sure to take "x" amount of TMG if I take "xx" amount of methionine?
(Forgive me if that's something you've already addressed -- I'm just not "getting" this in terms of the chemistry here.)
Re previous post, just to be clear on this too, choline is NOT contraindicated for the undermethylated....despite what Dr. Walsh says?
Thanks,
JL
Posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:25:54
In reply to Re: DMAE, choline, TMG » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 11, 2003, at 11:20:41
> As I consume virtually no eggs and milk, I have started taking lecithin which has both phosphatidylcholine and phosphatidylinositol. I started fish oil at the same time. I noticed a modest improvement from this in visual clarity and greater tendency to feel "grounded" in the present objective/subjective outer reality.
Hmm...interesting. I really need to isolate my "trials" more so I can evaluate such things, but I've been so desperate to feel better and get more functional, that I just threw everything at my brain all at once. (Which worked rather well, actually, but I'm nervous about the longer-run.)
> Regarding inositol: I took it for a number of weeks in August. I had what I first believed to be a quite strange reaction (but in the end, postive) to the first dose, however I think that experience was more likely a result of the "Sacksian" cumulative tinkering I had been doing on myself up to that point (I would recommend seeing the deNero/Williams movie and getting the book "Awakenings"). The parallel was erie enough for me to worry that I would run into an analgous predicament to his post-encephalitic patients on L-DOPA, but fortunately most of those concerns of mine have faded in the months since then as things stabilized.
I thought that movie was hideously depressing, but so far I'm the only person I've met who thought so. It reminded me too much of how I would think an anti-depressant (or whatever) was working, I would wake up out of my depressive lethargy for a time feeling like I had my life/self back, and then sink back down again, feeling even more hopeless.
> Yes, although I had great successes with DLPA, protein powder drinks, and L-tyrosine (at various times), they were "brittle" and I was dismayed at finding it necessary to treat myself at such short intervals. I also found it unconvincing that amino acid metabolism was my root problem. So I eventually was brought around to reconsider methylation, which I had discounted due to a less than impressive response to TMG (pre-Mg).
Well, I am hopeful too that this may be a key factor for me too, since I had such a positive reaction to SAMe. I'm going to stick with the tyrosine too for a while, as I believe it's helping other things too, such as my thyroid.
Thanks for the input. :)
JL
Posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:28:07
In reply to JLx, Confused about methylation., posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 16:59:44
> "SAMe pooping out was very crushing to my hopes of realizing a dream for natural remedies in place of ADs".
>
> >>>> Have you tried tryptophan?No, but I'm thinking about it since you've all been the guinea pigs for the horse source. ;) I've been taking 50 mg of 5-HTP at night with a small bit of melatonin which does help some because I notice if I DON'T take it. So perhaps tryptophan would be better.
Does it help you sleep?
Posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:32:47
In reply to Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:11:58
> Lar---WHAT do you notice the TMG doing for you?
> JLx, what do you notice also?Well, I don't notice all that much...but I'm just at the beginning of my experimentation. The first day I thought it gave me a "rush" feeling, like if I'd eaten sugar, but then the next day it seemed to make me feel more tired. Now that it's been a few days, I don't notice much difference at all. I think I may try increasing it now some.
Posted by McPac on November 12, 2003, at 20:07:26
In reply to Re: Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988) » McPac, posted by Larry Hoover on November 12, 2003, at 6:44:43
"They're clutching at straws, dude. Trying to squeeze success out of failure. IMHO."
>>>>>>>>>>> Lar, I was looking back at some papers that Pfeiffer had given me way back when I initially went to them last year. One of the papers was one of their informational-type papers on high histamine (undermethylation)individuals and the supplements that they would typically use to treat that person. And of course many of those supplements I am on...like calcium, magnesium, methionine, B6, vitamins A, C, D, etc..Now, it also says, "Additional supplements include 5htp or SAMe; compatible herbs may also be prescribed which include SJW, Kava Kava and inositol".
Now, as I've mentioned before, I think the reason that they did not put me on 5htp was because I'm taking an ssri and they did not want to mix the two (the paper mentions 5htp but not tryptophan...they may very well have patients on trypto though, the paper does not include ALL possible supps that they use). Anyway, my point is that no doubt because of the ssri, they didn't want me on 5htp (or tryptophan). Hence, the MAIN ingredient for me (tryptophan!..maybe 5htp would work as well, maybe not) has been taken out of the treatment plan! But it's like their hands have been tied, i.e. "well, we'd like to give you the trypto or 5htp but we CAN'T due to the ssri"....so it's not much surprise to me that their treatment plan isn't working when they CAN'T even follow their treatment plan! Think of it this way, if I showed up there and was NOT on an ssri, and they would have been able to give me the same supps ONLY WITH trypto (or 5htp), then I would have experienced the MUCH better response and then I'd be on these boards telling everybody that the Pfeiffer folks were the greatest thing since sliced bread! So their hands were tied, they could only give me all of the 'weak' supps (my term, meaning they didn't provide too much of an effect). I remember way back when I first saw my treatment plan, I said to myself right then "what the heck? these supps (like vitamins A, C, D, etc.) aren't going to do anything....they're not enough to lift my mood significantly)...and those 'weak' supps (for me) haven't done much...but if they COULD have given me trypto with those then I WOULD have felt a big difference and then they'd look like geniuses. So all they've been ABLE to do is give me more methionine, a little more TMG...which of course hasn't made much difference at all for me...but that's ALL they can do because of the ssri. Hence, no success because the MAIN ingredient, the NECESSARY "KEY", they can't give me. I guess what I'm saying is that if someone came to you, and you knew just the right supps to put them on to get them feeling better, only due to a medication that they were taking (possible terrible fatal reaction, liability/lawsuit concerns), you could not risk putting them on the MAIN "KEY" ingredient---thus they may not feel any better...and although you knew which ingredient you badly wanted them to try, you couldn't give them that one...so all you could do was keep tinkering with the weak ones that you could give them, hoping that some good would result. Yes, I really believe that Pfeiffer's hands are tied. What's funny is that for years I've wanted to try trypto...the serotonin enhancer....but couldn't because of ssri's.....and now that I've felt it's glorious effects, I'm on TWO drugs (ssri and lithium) that can bring on that CRAP serotonin syndrome baloney....I don't want to risk getting tossed in the psych ward, missing work for a month, etc., due to that crap.....I just don't know if I should try to reduce my ssri a great deal and see if daily trypto could take it's place (right now I don't feel like going through the withdrawal/symptom-return H*ll if it didn't work out ...I don't know if the trypto will be enough by itself to replace the ssri......I'm thinking out loud but the dilemma sucks!!!! Oh well, at least typing all this out helps me clarify some things.....take care Lar! I hope you've been feeling well! I often wish that I could give YOU some answers to YOUR problems...instead of you always helping everybody else....I still don't get how you can have all this knowledge in your head Hoover...do you have a photographic memory? Later!!!!!
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:22:23
In reply to DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » McPac, posted by JLx on November 12, 2003, at 16:32:47
Since I've been on TMG I don't feel the need for any of the amino acids I have taken before. I don't suffer from "fog", "clutter", or "dirtiness" in my head (those are three different things... the fog is the worst), I don't fatigue mentally as easily, and my mood is less prone to sink and be accompanied by highly negative and cynical reasoning.
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:37:33
In reply to Lar/JLx, Re: Carl Curt Pfeiffer, MD, PhD (?-1988), posted by McPac on November 11, 2003, at 17:11:58
> Lar, so are you saying that SAMe
> is WRONG to take if you have high homocysteine levels? Later!I'm not Lar, but yes, SAMe is bad if you have high homocysteine levels because the supplemental SAMe, once it donates its methyl-group, becomes more homocysteine in your system. You need to address the homocysteine first (via TMG or methylcobalamin), only adding on SAMe if the problem lies in converting methionine to SAMe. Magnesium and things to boost the body's production of ATP (NADH?) would be worth considering first as these are what are needed to convert methionine to SAMe.
YMMV. :-)
Posted by JLx on November 13, 2003, at 4:40:40
In reply to Re: DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » JLx, posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 2:22:23
> Since I've been on TMG I don't feel the need for any of the amino acids I have taken before. I don't suffer from "fog", "clutter", or "dirtiness" in my head (those are three different things... the fog is the worst), I don't fatigue mentally as easily, and my mood is less prone to sink and be accompanied by highly negative and cynical reasoning.
Very cool!! :) How long before you felt this effect?
I've been taking 400 mg in a "homocysteine regulator" combo that I'd forgotten included TMG, for a couple weeks, plus the additional 5-600 mg/day just recently. I can't say I've had a noticeable effect yet.
Posted by DSCH on November 13, 2003, at 11:11:23
In reply to Re: DSCH ....how does TMG feel to you? » DSCH, posted by JLx on November 13, 2003, at 4:40:40
> > Since I've been on TMG I don't feel the need for any of the amino acids I have taken before. I don't suffer from "fog", "clutter", or "dirtiness" in my head (those are three different things... the fog is the worst), I don't fatigue mentally as easily, and my mood is less prone to sink and be accompanied by highly negative and cynical reasoning.
>
> Very cool!! :) How long before you felt this effect?I dropped both tyrosine and 5-HTP after deciding it was worth trying it out. I didn't miss them at all. I had been on TMG for only a few days (you can see from my posts... my TMG/temper post was the first night with both TMG and magnesium, then I wrote the "experiment" post the evening before I dropped the amino acids).
> I've been taking 400 mg in a "homocysteine regulator" combo that I'd forgotten included TMG, for a couple weeks, plus the additional 5-600 mg/day just recently. I can't say I've had a noticeable effect yet.
To keep this up I think I need at least 3000 mg/day. I might give 4000-6000 a shot sometime, if just to find out where the upper limit is and then back down from it. As Larry says, sensitivity can vary by orders of magnitude. If you are over-methylated, TMG should make things worse.
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