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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 32 to 56 of 97. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 12:54:26
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » seldomseen, posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 12:51:37
My big But is what if we can talk them down and into seeing someone. My training always said it was a cry for help. That's just me though. Love Phillipa
Posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 13:28:41
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » obsidian, posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 12:54:26
> My big But is what if we can talk them down and into seeing someone. My training always said it was a cry for help. That's just me though. Love Phillipa
sure it is, but we don't necessarily have to be the ones to talk them down into seeing someone. I am extremely selfish when it comes to this. I don't want to be in that position.
Posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 14:02:28
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Phillipa, posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 13:28:41
I realize I have some complicated feelings about this, so I'll just throw out a couple of thoughts in case anyone else relates and so some people might not think I am a heartless bitch (you might anyway):
1. I have watched people in my life destroy themselves, and I have realized that there has usually not been all that much I could do about it. I wish it weren't true.
2. I have realized that when certain people have spent their time talking to me about something that it was really someone else they needed to be talking to and/or somewhere else they needed to be
3. The next time I get suicidal, I don't want anyone here to worry about me. I don't want to do that to anyone. I care about you a lot, and I do not wish to add to your struggle.
4. I know that people are not in their "right mind" when they are suicidal. I don't want to end up in a futile attempt to provide reason to someone who can't respond and/or connect to reason.
5. I "feel" suicidal is A LOT different than, "I've got the pills, would you like to watch?"
enough said for now....
may everyone treasure the life they have
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 14:37:44
In reply to What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
You are absolutely right, seldomseen. Thinking about suicide and actually taking steps to kill oneself are two different things. Of course it is appropriate to give support to people who are thinking about suicide.
When someone says I have what I need to kill myself, and I have already taken steps to end my life, for example, that is not something babble posters should be asked to handle. We don't know who the person really is or where that person lives, etc. So, we have to stand by helplessly to intervene with someone who is in the process of killing himself or herself. We should not be asked to intervene as we really can't.
Zeba
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 14:39:44
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » seldomseen, posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 12:33:40
Phillipa,
What if that person was just a babbler or had babble turned off, and you did not know who that person was? How would you feel if you did not even know who the person is?
Zeba
Posted by Nadezda on September 7, 2008, at 14:46:38
In reply to What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
I would be strongly against deleting posts by people who say that they're in the process of committing suicide, or anything of that kind.
First of all, we have no idea how people may communicate. Someone may simply state as a fact something that is a strong wish, or that feels imminent.
I personally believe that deleting posts would be like erasing the person, or rejecting their statement of pain. We could have no idea of where the person is emotionally or what that might mean to them. Even if they have made an irrevocable decision, I wouldn't want us to be the last ones who were unwilling to tolerate their expression of pain.
Nadezda
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 7, 2008, at 14:58:22
In reply to Re: post something on that thread » Dr. Bob, posted by AbbieNormal on September 6, 2008, at 17:50:21
> Not publically. I bmailed you.
Got it, OK.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 7, 2008, at 14:58:28
In reply to Re: post something on that thread » Dr. Bob, posted by Zeba on September 6, 2008, at 22:40:33
> So someone who may be unstable, hey okay let that person deal with a suicidal individual if they want to???? What kind of ethics is that, Bob???
I see it as letting them decide what's best for them.
Bob
Posted by Sigismund on September 7, 2008, at 16:55:13
In reply to What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
Someone might say (as some have)
'I've had enough. I'm going to do it.'Does that fall under 'I feel like suicide' or is that 'I'm going to kill myself'?
I don't think the distinction is as clear as we might like it to be.
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 16:56:12
In reply to Re: dealing with suicidal individuals, posted by Dr. Bob on September 7, 2008, at 14:58:28
> > So someone who may be unstable, hey okay let that person deal with a suicidal individual if they want to???? What kind of ethics is that, Bob???
>
> I see it as letting them decide what's best for them.
>
> Bob
So, even if one does not know who the person is, but YOU do, you seem to view it as the responsibility of the posters to deal with the situtation, not you. I wonder how your colleagues would view that. I will go ahead and ask a sampling of psychiatrists I know what they would have to say about this.Zeba
Posted by Sigismund on September 7, 2008, at 16:56:59
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Nadezda on September 7, 2008, at 14:46:38
>I wouldn't want us to be the last ones who were unwilling to tolerate their expression of pain.
Yes
Posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 17:45:02
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Sigismund on September 7, 2008, at 16:56:59
I don't think any posts should be deleted. If we start making policy for one type of situation, where does it end? We don't think twice about responding to posters about medication issues, when none of us are doctors (to my knowledge). Do we form policy that we aren't allowed to do that as we aren't qualified?
Also, how would a policy of deleting any posts about committing suicide be enforced? To my knowledge, there isn't round the clock supervision of this website.
This is my opinion only but if I were actually going to end my life, I cant see myself posting on a mental health support forum unless I really didn't want to go through with it. I think the person was looking for some intervention and by the sounds of it was able to receive same.
Another thing, we also don't really know what went on behind the scenes in Admin. I think we're all assuming that absolutely no action was taken by Admin, but do we really know that as fact?
As far as I can tell we were just notified that she was OK. If I missed something, please let me know. I don't know how she was found, by whom and what information was given to the people to enable them to find her.
Sorry if this post is disjointed, but it's the best I can do during a med withdrawal.
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 17:55:47
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 17:45:02
I am sorry, but I completely disagree with you. As a mh professional, I know for a fact that some people will make their last dying act a post or letter or phone call to someone before they die. I really do not think it is fair to ask babble posters to try to intervene with someone who has already taken steps to end his or her life. We have no way of knowing who this person might be. I am not saying to eliminate the posts; I am just saying that Dr. Bob has some repsonsibily here.
It is a fallacy to believe that if someone says they are in the process of killing themself, that they are really looking to be stopped or don't want to really kill themself. Many people make an outcry, but there are others who mean business when they say they are going to kill themself (make an outcry) or are in the process of killing themself.
Zeba
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 18:16:54
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by obsidian on September 7, 2008, at 14:02:28
She did post she had the means with her in the motel. To me this means that it's serious and needs to be treated that way. Just did a lot of crisis intervention when a psych nurse it was our responsibility after a certain time of day and also had to visit the magistrate many times to commit a patient that was either suicidal or pschotic. So I've done it before. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 18:39:17
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Phillipa, posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 14:39:44
Zeba I didn't know Kattwoman but due to diligent work of another poster she was found what happened then who knows but at least something was done. It's a choice that each babbler has to make for themselves is my feeling. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on September 7, 2008, at 19:26:41
In reply to Re: post something on that thread » Dr. Bob, posted by Zeba on September 6, 2008, at 9:13:13
> We have no idea where these people are, or at least most of us don't. You have their real names, etc.
Just as a clarification... Dr. Bob doesn't have our real names. He has our email addresses, but most of us register with anonymous addresses.
Posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 19:31:53
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Zeba, posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 18:39:17
There seems to be two different issues caught up in one thread. Anger at Dr. Bob for requesting posters deal with a suicide post and whether suicide posts should be deleted.
I don't know about anybody else but I'm finding it hard to focus.
Posted by gardenergirl on September 7, 2008, at 20:15:29
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Nadezda on September 7, 2008, at 14:46:38
> I would be strongly against deleting posts by people who say that they're in the process of committing suicide, or anything of that kind.
>
> First of all, we have no idea how people may communicate. Someone may simply state as a fact something that is a strong wish, or that feels imminent.
>
> I personally believe that deleting posts would be like erasing the person, or rejecting their statement of pain. We could have no idea of where the person is emotionally or what that might mean to them. Even if they have made an irrevocable decision, I wouldn't want us to be the last ones who were unwilling to tolerate their expression of pain.
>
> NadezdaThat was my gut reaction about deleting, too.
gg
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 22:27:22
In reply to Re: post something on that thread, posted by Dinah on September 7, 2008, at 19:26:41
Well, with real email addresses, one can be found by one of the free search engines. I have done it before. People give phoney addresses when they sign up???? I didn't.
If no one had known how to reach this person, then what do you think would have been the result???
Zeba
Posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 22:35:18
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 19:31:53
I do not think it is hard to figure out at all. The thread started out with how to handle truely suicidal babblers.
The thread then evolved to include comments about if such things should be removed or not from babble.
I would suppose that since nothing else is removed, then why this.
The other part having to do with having babblers deal with someone who is trying to kill themself, well I think it is not okay. I don't know anyone's email address. I used to know the email address of some people, but I have removed them from my list of people I email. This could be debated for forever. All I know is that I believe that peers should be allowed to weigh in on this, i.e., other psychiatrists.
Zeba
Posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 23:01:16
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Justherself54, posted by Zeba on September 7, 2008, at 22:35:18
Yes, this could be debated until the cows come home but I'd like to ask a couple of questions if that's OK.
How do you think this situation should have been handled? And how are Dr. Bob's peers going to be able to weigh in on this? Do you feel there should be some sort of sanctions against him?
Posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Nadezda, posted by gardenergirl on September 7, 2008, at 20:15:29
PLEASE consider this:
If the thread of Kattwoman would have been deleted or even just moved to another forum section SHE WOULDN'T HAVE RECEIVED HELP AT HER MOTEL ROOM. Because nobody would have discovered her identity and the police would have not known about her. I will not explain exactly how this is for some reasons but let's say that having a group of people caring enough to answer the suicidal user and having some of that group playing 'Colombo\CSI agent' to find the identity and location of the user and then contact the their local authorities with the profile/ID to make sure the user get some helps asap WAS IN THIS CASE WAY MORE EFFECTIVE than only having the owner of this web site to act on the situation.
(And FYI, while the reaction speed and the quality of the intervention wasn't exactly what you would expect from an expert who authored some published papers and a book about his experiences running this site in order to 'teach' his peers on how it's done ... he DID tried to act on the situation...)
Other reasons for NOT deleting any of those threads are that it could, possibly, trigger the suicide .. as the sufferer could take this as rejection or "another proof that nobody cares" etc ... I don't get it people: THIS IS A COMMUNITY FOR PEOPLE WITH MENTAL DISORDERS AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SUPRESSING ACCESS TO THE COMMUNITY IN TIME OF SUICIDAL CRISIS ? For what ? The advantages of letting the thread are dwarfing the inconveniences. I'm disapointed by some comments I saw here.. simply desolating to read. I saw someone here talking about his/her 'Selfishness' ?! This is a place where you give and receive.. and there's no better timing to receive than when you're suicidal. Nobody ask you to act upon those threads.. it's your right to do or think whatever you want about those threads but it's the priviledges of some others to be able to do something about it. I think it's not pretty when you come to think we should suppress the priviledges of the one who suffers and the one who wants to help the sufferers just because you don't want to SEE what's happening because you're not willing/able to do something about it.
Can't believe this is serious.. what's next ? Would you want the media to ban any article/news related to the poorest countries in the world so you wouldn't have to heard about their misery because it makes you feel bad about doing nothing about it .. even after considering that it would prevents other people to DO something about it ? This kind of selfishness as no place in a community like this one. While I'm sensitive to the possible sensitivities of the members of this forum due to his nature, I think we are responsible for what we say when we come in Admin to express our view about how this site should be run.. and this 'selfishness' thing deserve to be denounced.
"Doctor, could you please make sure I'm the only patient in your waiting room when I come to your office ? ...seeing all those sick persons makes me feel bad about not doing nothing for them." .. What about doing something for them by NOT SUPPRESING THEIR OPPORTUNITIES OF GETTING MUCH NEEDED HELP ? ..
[PS: in the next paragraphs 'YOU' means everyone regular members on this site.. NOT the people who said he was selfish.. ]
Oh and BTW, You may disagree with Dr.Hsiung (aka Dr.Bob) about a couple things as I do.. but he's right about having regular community members participating in the day-to-day running of this site. See, this site has been thought as a COMMUNITY with the concept of E-Therapy in mind.. and in this 'therapy' what you give to the group is as therapeutic as what you receive from it. If you can't give what you've been asked for.. that's perfectly okay .. just like in a real life therapy. The one who can give does and the other who can't doesn't and that's perfect like this.
Also.. stop thinking that because this site is run by a psychiatrist, we sufferers are ENTITLED to receive the services it offers or that we should receives those service the way we expect the medical science thinks it must be prescribed: This is 2008.. there's no hundreds years of online clinical experiences and a medecine manual contening 'Best Practices' regarding how to run such a site... We ain't ENTITLED TO ANYTHING HERE ... stop acting like this site is paid by your pocket, your insurance company or the government.. Dr.Bob isn't on the job here so stop whining about the quality of the services he renders us: You're not a customer, familly or someone who give something back to him.. think about it: contrary to EVERY members on Pbbable who receive constantly from this site, Dr.Bob the one who receive THE LESS from this community.. a couple occasional 'thanks' here and maybe some occasional respect from SOME of his peers there.. THAT'S IT .. Also, let's stop acting like this site MUST be run as a DEMOCRACY... with our level of contribution to the day-to-day operations on this site we are previleged to be able to speak and critics so freely. Dr.Bob doesn't owes us NOTHING AT ALL ... in fact we owes some to him. Do you know many psychiatrist who invest his time/money (some peers would even talk about credibility !) into something like this site ? Let's stop acting like this people... Dr.Bob ain't our mother and we aren't giving him NOTHING in return for what he gaves us! Having a PhD in medecin shouldn't ENSLAVE you to give everything you have to the ill and enslave you to perfection in your way of giving .. WE AREN'T Dr.BOB PATIENTS .. we are guests here, we aren't renter .. If you pay for an hotel room you're entitled to clean towels, clean beds etc.. but if your the guest of one of your friend for some time you're NOT entitled to much of anything and don't act like you're at the hotel if someday he ask your help to do the dishes.. Still Dr.Bob couldn't ask a member to participate (ie: to relay an information to a thread) ? .. and he can't share no responsabilities with us under the pretext we are sick ? .. under the pretext of the seriousness of the situations happening on the board ? Why would he be the only one having all this weight on his shoulders ? because he has an effing PhD and that he work as a clinician ? I'm a software engineer who could fix you're computer if you ask me .. but I dare you giving me sh*t because I've ask you to hand me a 'starshaped' screwdriver because I could have reach for it myself .. thinks it's different ? It's not. Doctors aren't either our Mothers, Gods or Slaves.. especially when you're not their patient.
We owes them much more than they owes us, EVEN when we pay them./\/\arty
Posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 23:33:27
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
Thank you Marty. For me you put a lot of the garbled thoughts in my head in your post.
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 23:37:43
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
Marty again job well done. I guess some of us just like to really help babblers as they are truly real people who hurt and bleed. And Kattwoman needed us. Maybe if she was a known babbler thoughts also would be different. Love Phillipa
Posted by Deneb on September 8, 2008, at 0:44:18
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
Thanks for writing that Marty. :-)
((((((Dr. Bob))))))
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