![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 101 to 125 of 136. Go back in thread:
Posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 19:21:35
In reply to Sorry about the above post, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 18:54:49
>>>Do people think I'm a bad person for writing those things? Am I a bad person because I feel those things?
THe short answer....No. (not that anyone would be able to answer Yes to that question anyways without being uncivil - but that's irrelevant). Do you?
>>>>>>Am I a bad person when I get upset after people do certain things and I'm so upset I think bad things like that?
Nope. We can *think* and *feel* whatever we want. However, we can't *say* everything we want. At least not without consequences. There's interpersonal consequences (both good and bad) to everything, IRL and through the internet. On babble, there's also consequences to being uncivil.
As a reverse, am *I* a bad person for being upset when "people do certain things"? Thinking and feeling bad things are one thing, pressuring or blaming are another.>>>>>For example: Was I a bad person for wanting to kill myself after getting blocked?
Nope. If I had to put myself in that situation (if I got blocked), I'd have to really push myself to not just see the block/blocker as "making" me self-harm -- because blocks don't just occur for no reason. I would have to try and consider my own part in bringing about the block, and assume responsibity for my part (even if it's illness), and own my own feelings and behaviours. There's more choices before suicide attempts.
>>>>>>Is it OK to tell people at the hospital that I tried to kill myself because I was upset over being blocked? Or should I lie because it's manipulative to say those things?
First, you know that no one here would want you to go through that, right. But, yep, IRL you can always say what your perspective is. I don't see how it could be manipulative. Unless hypothetically (and I'm gonna get creative here) you fabricated a suicide attempt, and blamed the "meanness" of Babble hoping that someone would look into having the site shut down, or something like that - I guess.
You don't need to apoligize for asking those questions. It's always better to ask before reacting. Deneb, you should re-read your really insightful post above (the one to sunnydays). Maybe it will help re-clarify the thing that people were upset over in this thread. OR what if you also brought these questions into a session and did a back and forth with your pdoc? You may find it useful in your commitment to learning how to not let the same thing happen ever again. You said you're used to talking to her quite a bit now, right? [kudos on that by the way :)] What do you think?
blove El
Posted by Phillipa on January 20, 2007, at 19:34:54
In reply to Re: Sorry about the above post » Deneb, posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 19:21:35
Deneb you could role play with your therapist or pdoc. Love Phillipa
Posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 20:07:05
In reply to Wow.... *trigger*, posted by tofuemmy on January 20, 2007, at 19:14:50
I have no doubt that Bob or one of the deputies will block me if I'm uncivil.
I'm not saying I will feel suicidal when I am blocked. I don't think I will be. I'm taking about the past.
Deneb*
Posted by tofuemmy on January 20, 2007, at 20:15:52
In reply to Re: Wow.... *trigger*, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 20:07:05
>>What about if I fail at killing myself and end up in the hospital?
This is not past tense.
Posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 20:23:09
In reply to Re: Wow.... *trigger* » Deneb, posted by tofuemmy on January 20, 2007, at 20:15:52
> >>What about if I fail at killing myself and end up in the hospital?
>
> This is not past tense.I'm sorry, I write the worse things ever. I'm sorry. I'm so stupid.
I'm pretty sure I won't feel suicidal next time I get blocked.
I'm sorry. I write inappropriate things.
Deneb*
Posted by zazenduckie on January 20, 2007, at 21:34:43
In reply to Re: feeling afraid and ignored, posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 12:25:32
Bob may we assume if you are aware of contact information for a poster and that poster in your judgement is in a life threatening situation that you WILL take some kind of action? Your medical training gives you a better of idea of what is an emergency than some of us have.
I believe that is your duty as a physician and a fellow human being. Should someone call your office and alert you?
I believe your not taking action might lead some to believe that the situation is not life threatening. Is that a fair conclusion?
Posted by zazenduckie on January 20, 2007, at 21:38:20
In reply to Re: Wow.... *trigger* » tofuemmy, posted by Deneb on January 20, 2007, at 20:23:09
I'm glad you're okay Deneb.
I wish there was something I could do to help you but I don't know how. I wish you the best though.
Posted by Fallen4MyT on January 20, 2007, at 21:46:28
In reply to Wow.... *trigger*, posted by tofuemmy on January 20, 2007, at 19:14:50
> >>For example: Was I a bad person for wanting to kill myself after getting blocked?
>
> >>What about if I fail at killing myself and end up in the hospital? Is it OK to tell people at the hospital that I tried to kill myself because I was upset over being blocked? Or should I lie because it's manipulative to say those things?
>
> See, Bob CAN'T block Deneb because she has made it clear that if he does, she will attempt suicide. Will she live or die this time?
>
> And, then what happens to Bob and Babble? Could he be sued by her parents? Would he have to shut down Babble? Who knows.
>
> Deneb...your impulsivity is scarey.
>
> em
>I respectfully disagree with you. Dr Bob makes it clear on the site that he is not responsible. I mean we could all avoid a block by threatening suicide if that works...Next would Dr Bob give us his money and allow us to move into his home if we threatened and or attempted suicide. I feel a block for this kind of talk is justified. We really do not have the power to make someone kill themself...I do not know of one mental health professional who would allow themselves to be held hostage by threats like this. This is why I thought contacting the ISP the second this kinda thing comes up...followed by a block would be most effective. This is of course my feeling and opinion on this and it is not directed at any one person.
Dr Bob plain and simple...Are you afraid and being held hostage by these threats? If you do not want to say feel free to email me but I find you to be too professional to allow this kind of behavior in your real life. Just as a professor would not give an A to a student who threatened the same,. I really feel and I would if I had a site like this .calling the ISP on suicidal threats would be a safe and sound thing to do...as well as a good way to protect myself from liability. Again just my feelings and thoughts
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 1:01:39
In reply to Re: something better needs to be done-yes, posted by ElaineM on January 20, 2007, at 15:21:45
> > Can someone point out to me the words that are provocative and distressing? I want the actual quotes.
>
> I felt that in this post you weren't being provocative, but what you said was distressing. What you wrote isn't uncivil, but I perceived it as threatening.
>
> Poet> I percievied this as quite threatening as well.
>
> ElaineMI know she asked, but I'd still like complaints about specific posts not to be posted. They can be discussed by babblemail, though. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 1:01:43
In reply to Wow.... *trigger*, posted by tofuemmy on January 20, 2007, at 19:14:50
> deneb, you completely misunderstood my post.
>
> fayeroe> Deneb...your impulsivity is scarey.
>
> tofuemmyPlease don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please first see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceFollow-ups regarding these issues, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 1:01:50
In reply to Wow.... *trigger*, posted by tofuemmy on January 20, 2007, at 19:14:50
> then what happens to Bob and Babble? Could he be sued by her parents? Would he have to shut down Babble? Who knows.
Is that another fear? Of losing Babble?
Bob
Posted by tofuemmy on January 21, 2007, at 9:49:34
In reply to Re: please be civil » fayeroe » tofuemmy, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 1:01:43
I don't think that was uncivil. Impulsivity is one the the HIGHEST risk factors for suicide. I fear for her life. How is that uncivil??
Is stating the obvious (her impulisity in light of the posts right above mine) uncivil?
Perhaps a Please Rephrase?? "I feel scared for you in light of what appears to be impulsive behavior on your part, Deneb."
I don't post to hurt her or to get her blocked, or even to change your rules. I just don't want her to end her life.
FWIW, the fear of losing Babble is not for myself, but for all the people who rely so heavily on this site. If you are successfully sued, you couldn't afford to keep it.
em
Posted by sunnydays on January 21, 2007, at 10:44:17
In reply to Re: feeling afraid, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 1:01:50
> > then what happens to Bob and Babble? Could he be sued by her parents? Would he have to shut down Babble? Who knows.
>
> Is that another fear? Of losing Babble?
>
> BobI think that is always a fear here... I remember some posts in the past where some hypothetical threat to Babble came up and people were very upset. But for me at least, it's not the big fear. The big fears for me are favoritism and the impact pressuring posts can have on people here at Babble who are trying to protect themselves.
sunnydays
Posted by Poet on January 21, 2007, at 10:53:15
In reply to Re: pointing out posts, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 1:01:39
In the future I will not point out a post, even if it is requested, unless I do it via babblemail. Though I question whether under babblemail guidelines it shouldn't be allowed because it might be hurtful.
Poet
Posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 12:37:41
In reply to Re: feeling afraid, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 1:01:50
I just want to alleviate people's fears about me. First of all, I haven't been feeling truly suicidal for a while now so it is very unlikely that I will kill myself because of a block or something else. Second of all, even if I were to kill myself, my parents would not sue Dr. Bob. I also wouldn't want my parents to sue Dr. Bob. Would you all feel better if I wrote a note saying I don't want my parents to sue? Sort of like a will or something?
The risk of me killing myself is also slim because I have *never* actually attempted suicide. OK, I admit I bought a rope once, but I never hung it up and I eventually returned the rope. I would also never OD to kill myself because I know what a horrible way to die that is.
It's unlikely I will feel suicidal next time I get blocked because blocked posters can chat now and I know Bob doesn't not like me or think I'm a bad person.
Deneb*
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 13:08:23
In reply to Re: pointing out posts » Dr. Bob, posted by Poet on January 21, 2007, at 10:53:15
> I don't think that was uncivil. Impulsivity is one the the HIGHEST risk factors for suicide. I fear for her life. How is that uncivil??
>
> Is stating the obvious ... uncivil?It can be, if it leads someone to feel accused or put down. Something like:
> > I feel scared for you, Deneb.
would be more of an I-statement and IMO more sensitive.
> I don't post to hurt her or to get her blocked, or even to change your rules. I just don't want her to end her life.
I understand, and I didn't mean to imply that anyone here wasn't trying to help.
> FWIW, the fear of losing Babble is not for myself, but for all the people who rely so heavily on this site. If you are successfully sued, you couldn't afford to keep it.
>
> emSure, it could be fear that others, not oneself, might lose Babble. Deneb, even. People could also care about and be scared for me. Which I would feel grateful for.
--
> The big fears for me are favoritism and the impact pressuring posts can have
>
> sunnydaysI agree, it would be good if people didn't feel pressured here. How do you think favoritism might affect posters?
--
> In the future I will not point out a post, even if it is requested, unless I do it via babblemail. Though I question whether under babblemail guidelines it shouldn't be allowed because it might be hurtful.
>
> PoetThanks. I see what you mean, it would still be important to be civil. But at least one match wouldn't start a forest fire.
Bob
Posted by Llurpsie_Noodle on January 21, 2007, at 19:35:49
In reply to Re: feeling afraid, posted by Dr. Bob on January 21, 2007, at 13:08:23
> > I don't think that was uncivil. Impulsivity is one the the HIGHEST risk factors for suicide. I fear for her life. How is that uncivil??
> >
> > Is stating the obvious ... uncivil?
>
> It can be, if it leads someone to feel accused or put down. Something like:yes, just like stating that someone has a giant infected zit on their nose is probably uncivil (or at least rude and demeaning) regardless of how "obvious" it may be
>
> > I don't post to hurt her or to get her blocked, or even to change your rules. I just don't want her to end her life.
>
> I understand, and I didn't mean to imply that anyone here wasn't trying to help.
>
> > FWIW, the fear of losing Babble is not for myself, but for all the people who rely so heavily on this site. If you are successfully sued, you couldn't afford to keep it.
> >
> > em
>
> Sure, it could be fear that others, not oneself, might lose Babble. Deneb, even. People could also care about and be scared for me. Which I would feel grateful for.*
> > The big fears for me are favoritism and the impact pressuring posts can have
> >
> > sunnydays
>
> I agree, it would be good if people didn't feel pressured here. How do you think favoritism might affect posters?"pressure" is a very new concern to me. I've never been in the situation where I was worried about my well-intentioned advice being considered "pressure". If advice is kind, caring, supportive and consistent, is it also possible that it could be considered "pressure"? How would I know, unless I read something like "I read your post to me Llurpsie_Noodle, and I feel pressured" ... BUT then Llurpsie_Noodle is *accused* of being uncivil. yikes! Is pressure only palpable to the one being pressured? Can it ever be detected by the administrators?
> > In the future I will not point out a post, even if it is requested, unless I do it via babblemail. Though I question whether under babblemail guidelines it shouldn't be allowed because it might be hurtful.
> >
> > Poetyes, but sometimes posts have positive advice that we want to point out too! I wouldn't want to select posts to support an argument that the poster is engaged in wrong-doing, but rather to select posts that provide support. This comes up very frequently on the meds board, when one poster has written something that may be unsound medical advice, and the post is later referred to in the spirit of providing better medical advice. Just because a post is incorrect or inaccurate doesn't make us uncivil if we kindly point it out and suggest alternatives, does it?
> Bob
* Dr. Bob, thank you for investing your energy to sort through these different issues and weigh in. It's not often that I feel like you actually explain your reasoning. I don't feel scared for you (in terms of legal or ethical censure), because I feel that things are under control here (legally and ethically).
But I do care about you, because I think you have invested a lot of time and energy in this project, and this project has improved my life. I also worry about you because you seem to take a lot of abuse and be a target for people's dissatisfaction with psycho-babble, and perhaps with life in general! You soak it up well, but I'm not sure that it is healthy for any one person to feel so much pressure from so many different people who often have strong feelings. I wish that you would put your own rules into place more often to protect yourself. In my opinion, there have been occasions when you have been accused, put down, cursed, and threatened, and yet you do not consistently demand that posters remain civil when addressing or referring to Dr. Bob. You're only human too, you know?
Posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:09:28
In reply to Re: please be civil - Oh » Dr. Bob, posted by tofuemmy on January 21, 2007, at 9:49:34
Bob can be sued - it was my question about the duality of bob's role below (admintrator or physcian?) - he is just not an administrator but also plays a personal role in the lives of posters as well. If a poster has a personal relationship, real or loosely percieved, with bob and has "untowards effects" due to the site or threatens self-harm, bob has a duty becasue he is not "just an administrator".
I've actually asked a lawyer about this. Maybe it's just the lawyers opinion but a suit can be filed.
Posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:10:49
In reply to Re: feeling afraid *triggers*, posted by Deneb on January 21, 2007, at 12:37:41
Deneb, your parents don't necessarily have to sue, it could be class action civil suit...
Posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:13:49
In reply to lawsuits/ dual relationships, posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:09:28
I would just like to see more consistency and uniformity with administrative actions in regard to self-harm/suicide posts to see no one gets hurt. The consequences are too high to pay otherwise...
Posted by Glydin on January 22, 2007, at 9:53:10
In reply to Re: feeling afraid and ignored, posted by Dr. Bob on January 20, 2007, at 9:25:29
> > > is favoritism a concern?
> >
> > Yes
> >
> > Glydin
>
> Feeling afraid could certainly make it less pleasant here, I understand that. Including feeling afraid of us not keeping it safe. Either because our hands are tied or because we have favorites. Is that the feeling?~~~ Seeing favorites being played on the board makes me feel angry. If the job of adm. is to govern the guidelines I would hope those decisions would be as objectively as possible. I've come to expect a progression of consequences on behaviors not allowed on this board. In terms of "hands being tied" - posters may be but are yours? I feel, in some instances, you are making adm. calls influenced by the preceived fragility of a poster or threats.
> It's not an issue of whose hurt is worse. How could that be determined, anyway? The issue is what kinds of posts are or aren't OK.
>~~~ So, based on the above, I would like to see you govern accordingly and leave mitigating circumstances out of it.
I am not heartless, I just would like to see continuity and (dare I say it) fairness.
Posted by justyourlaugh on January 22, 2007, at 12:53:38
In reply to Re: » Dr. Bob, posted by Glydin on January 22, 2007, at 9:53:10
i have 3 pbc warnings on the boards in the last 2 days...
go figure?
Posted by Glydin on January 22, 2007, at 14:00:55
In reply to Re: » Glydin, posted by justyourlaugh on January 22, 2007, at 12:53:38
> i have 3 pbc warnings on the boards in the last 2 days...
> go figure?
I can't...
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 22, 2007, at 14:19:21
In reply to Re: » Dr. Bob, posted by Glydin on January 22, 2007, at 9:53:10
> Is pressure only palpable to the one being pressured? Can it ever be detected by the administrators?
I think it's like incivility in general, to some extent it's subjective, but to some extent it may be able to be detected by observers, too.
> Dr. Bob, thank you for investing your energy to sort through these different issues and weigh in. It's not often that I feel like you actually explain your reasoning.
You're welcome. I don't just want to explain my reasoning, I'm also looking for input...
> But I do care about you, because I think you have invested a lot of time and energy in this project, and this project has improved my life. I also worry about you because you seem to take a lot of abuse and be a target for people's dissatisfaction with psycho-babble, and perhaps with life in general! You soak it up well, but I'm not sure that it is healthy for any one person to feel so much pressure from so many different people who often have strong feelings. I wish that you would put your own rules into place more often to protect yourself. In my opinion, there have been occasions when you have been accused, put down, cursed, and threatened, and yet you do not consistently demand that posters remain civil when addressing or referring to Dr. Bob. You're only human too, you know?
Thanks, I know it's kind of inconsistent, but I think it can nice to be less constrained sometimes, and the goal here isn't for *me* to receive support. :-)
--
> Seeing favorites being played on the board makes me feel angry.
Thanks for going into this more. Do you have other feelings, too? About how favoritism might affect you?
> If the job of adm. is to govern the guidelines I would hope those decisions would be as objectively as possible.
>
> I would like to see you ... leave mitigating circumstances out of it.
>
> I am not heartless, I just would like to see continuity and (dare I say it) fairness.I think everyone here would agree that fairness should be the goal. Some, however, might consider fairness to *require* taking into account mitigating circumstances. Whether to, and if so how, I think there will always be different opinions about. And lots of Admin discussion. :-)
Bob
Posted by zazenduckie on January 24, 2007, at 12:28:52
In reply to lawsuits/ dual relationships, posted by one woman cine on January 22, 2007, at 8:09:28
Just last month, in a U.S. District Court in New York, IBM asked a federal judge to dismiss an Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) lawsuit brought against it by a former employee. Plaintiff James Pacenza, who had been with IBM for 19 years, alleges that he was wrongfully fired for misusing his workplace computer.
More specifically, Pacenza claims he is "addicted" to the Internet - and thus suffers from a disability. He also says the root of his disability is another disability - post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) based on his service in Vietnam.
Pacenza thus argues that, legally, IBM was required to take steps to help him before terminating him - as it would have done with someone addicted to alcohol or narcotics. He seeks $5 million in damages.Will Pacenza's suit, and others like it, succeed? In this column, I'll discuss that question.
.....
They claim Pacenza did what he did because he is addicted to the Internet. In addition, they allege that he is self-medicating for his Vietnam-induced PTSD.
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/ramasastry/20070109.html
I thought this was interesting. I know people frequently speak of being "addicted" to Babble. You yourself have used that term.
I was struck by the claim that he was self medicating PTSD.
I wonder if this addiction to Babble does not have a similiar root in some of your most vulnerable Babblers.
I believe being cut off abrubtly from the "self-medication" of Babble could have tragic consequences for some.
I think you are making a mistake if you believe that the most fragile people are the ones who are most adept at seeking help here or behaving in a way to evoke sympathy or "mercy" from you. I would suggest that indeed they might be the ones who would also be most able to seek help effectively in real life.
People who have more trouble communicating their pain and evoking helping responses would probably be at most risk if the self-medication of Babble were abrubtly removed. Especially as the block is yet another wound to someone who has been wounded enough to self medicate in the first place.
Bob I believe your questions and actions towards people may very well be establishing a therapeutic relationship. I never talked to a lawyer but I talked to a therapist and that was his comment. I was surprised at first but he made a pretty good case.
Your varying treatment of individuals might very well be percieved as " individual treatment plans". Which would be a therapeutic decision rather than an administrative one.
Just thought it was interesting.
Your friend
zazenduckie
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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