![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 222. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 13, 2004, at 10:23:57
(Sorry in advance for slipping between the second and third person. This message is both to, and about, Dr. Bob.)
I am hurt, and left emotionally vulnerable. (How's that for an I-statement?)
The inconsistent moderation of this site does not protect me, and lets others get away with more egregious acts of incivility against me, than I have *ever* expressed. References? Why, of course.
Consider:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20031120/msgs/297882.html"I have to say Larry Hoover is not as he seems, I too thought he was a wonderful and thoughtful person till I came up against *his* strict rules."
That feels like a put down to me.
"I have been hurt and assaulted by his attitudes and the people who think Larry " can do no wrong"."
That's not an acceptable I-statement, and is definitely an accusation and a put down.
"I am not suprised at all that he has overstepped his bounds."
That feels like a put down, and is more clearly not an acceptable I-statment.
"Sometimes I thought he could have been sued for the claims he made about products he uses."
That's an accusation of illegal activity.
"He sometimes behaves like a pdoc....telling all what they should take and not take. I was repeatedly surprised that this was *okay*. If he decided what someone should take then he would give a dose level....well that sure looked like perscribing to me."
That's an accusation of criminal misrepresentation.
"I am amazed how he got as far as he got. I have seen people sued for less."
Further libel, reiterating the accusation of legal malfeasance.
"I guess I have wondered how this site was exempt from the legal rules. It sure looked risky."
That feels like a put down, too.
Interesting, isn't it, that the above poster received no rebuke of any sort, despite having been previously warned about uncivil language directed at me, having been asked not to post to me at all (I know that doesn't mean not posting *about* me, but I'm just giving the history), and the comments coming "out of the blue", rather than being in response to something I said.
In my reply to the above, I questioned the morals of posting those (libellous) statements, and posting them while I was blocked and unable to reply (so it just hung there, like a bad smell), and I get triple-blocked for defending my dignity.
And consider this:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20040503/msgs/344993.html"cantancorousness (sic) of Larry-Hoover and Zen-Hussy"
Now, I have looked high and low, and I cannot find any definition of cantankerous which is a compliment. Each and every definition is a put down. Was anything done about it? Nope.
I know zenhussy emailed you to complain. I know others did, as well. And shar brought it up, on this board. You didn't even have the decency to acknowledge those concerns.
What am I to make of this?
The bottom line is that Bob treats me differently than he treats others. According to Bob, it's OK to take direct pot shots at Larry Hoover. (What other interpretation is there?) But if Larry should ever err in style (e.g. passive voice I statements), or in **inferred** content (no consideration of intent), double and triple blocks are in order. Don't even think about a PBC or please rephrase.
Dr. Bob, I've seen you post that you missed me, and your wish that I was still a part of the Babble community.
You disgust me. The simple fact is that I am too much of a challenge to your authority. That I make you think about what you do and how you do it. So you leave me totally unprotected.
I take responsibility for my actions. No one has ever made me post a single word. If I post, and consequences arise, so be it. But I want you to take responsibility too, Bob.
I want you to examine your bias. I want you to stop playing favourites. I want you to acknowledge the harm done by your negligent moderation. I may be particularly vulnerable (That is mine to deal with. But, considering the population here, it's yours to deal with, too.), but your unfairness has hurt me deeply. You ought not to treat me more harshly simply because I have asked you to treat us all the same. And you know very clearly what (and who) I'm talking about.
Although still very conflicted, I had actually considered returning to Babble. Now, I'm asking myself, "What was I thinking?".
Lar
Posted by spoc on May 13, 2004, at 11:26:35
In reply to Dr. Bob is a hypocrite, posted by Larry Hoover on May 13, 2004, at 10:23:57
.....(((Larry)))
Hope you don't mind (I'm rather new to the parenthesis concept). Oh, and I have read some of your posts and threads in the archives, so kinda feel like I know you a little. :- )
Posted by 64bowtie on May 14, 2004, at 12:46:42
In reply to Dr. Bob is a hypocrite, posted by Larry Hoover on May 13, 2004, at 10:23:57
Larry,
Good to see you back in the saddle. Try to keep your head down. The locals are restless and taking potshots indesciminately.
I missed my target. For that, please accept my apology. Now then, (an oximoron if I ever saw one), now then, please indulge me by giving me a space saving single word description of yourself-in-absentia.
Hope you continue to bring good stuff. I have stopped listening to my old albums of "The Bickersons" for interpersonal communication techniques. Do you have any of their albums? Please just stay with the technical. You will have an audience, I assure you.
Ego Rod sum
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 14, 2004, at 14:18:01
In reply to Pardon my seeking a friendly label... I apologise » Larry Hoover, posted by 64bowtie on May 14, 2004, at 12:46:42
> Larry,
>
> Good to see you back in the saddle. Try to keep your head down. The locals are restless and taking potshots indesciminately.
>
> I missed my target. For that, please accept my apology.No, please accept my apology, for I failed to make clear that my argument targets the moderation policy alone, not your posting. It is palpably clear that you meant no disrespect. Yet, also without a shadow of a doubt, the word you used could only be taken as an insult.
You should have been blocked. You weren't. You got credit for intent. That is the only explanation.
And yet, contrast this present situation with the following, from:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303220.html
"Lar: But in my heart, I know my intent was true, sincere, honest, and respectful. I believe myself to have been unfairful blocked. Let the chips fall where they may.
Bob: I believe that you meant well. But I don't think it would work to administrate based on intent, so I go by words."
Clearly, despite his overt acknowledgement of my benevolent intent, I get blocked anyway.
> Now then, (an oximoron if I ever saw one),
Cute.
> now then, please indulge me by giving me a space saving single word description of yourself-in-absentia.
Two words. Angry geek.
> Hope you continue to bring good stuff.
Sorry to disappoint. Bob won't apologize. He'll never admit he was wrong. He'll never admit his decisions were grossly unfair. I'm just trying to warn people. This is not a safe environment.
> I have stopped listening to my old albums of "The Bickersons" for interpersonal communication techniques. Do you have any of their albums?
No. <grin>
> Please just stay with the technical. You will have an audience, I assure you.
I have little doubt of that. Ask the moderator why it isn't about to happen.
> Ego Rod sum
Lar
Posted by spoc on May 14, 2004, at 14:49:24
In reply to Re: Pardon my seeking a friendly label... I apologise » 64bowtie, posted by Larry Hoover on May 14, 2004, at 14:18:01
> ... Yet, also without a shadow of a doubt, the word you used could only be taken as an insult. >
---> > Larry,
> >
> > Good to see you back in the saddle. Try to keep your head down. The locals are restless and taking potshots indesciminately. > >----
This may be a useful point to look at the kinds of things that could be done differently; cases where if we think more about something before we post it, the potential for its words to give offense to some could be seen.To wit, is it just me, or is there something inadvisable in the words -- and their inference -- contained in the above sentence about the locals? Thought this might be helpful.
Posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 16:46:32
In reply to Re: Pardon my seeking a friendly label... I apologise » 64bowtie, posted by Larry Hoover on May 14, 2004, at 14:18:01
> > Hope you continue to bring good stuff.
>
> Sorry to disappoint. Bob won't apologize. He'll never admit he was wrong. He'll never admit his decisions were grossly unfair. I'm just trying to warn people. This is not a safe environment.
Pardon me for butting in, since I missed that episode and I've been away too long to have had a chance to get to know you. Furthermore, I'm not trying to defend Dr. Bob or his policies (he can do that quite fine without me) nor am I saying that I really know anything about his rules (outside of what's published here, I don't), but...The more people there are on a public bulletin board like Babble, the greater the variation. The greater the variation, the greater the chance that a simple set of "rules" will break or that someone will have these rules applied to them an unfair manner (from at least one perspective). The moment moderators start publicly second guessing and reversing decisions is the moment that board goes straight to hell for everybody. Immediately, everybody's exception to the rules need to be addressed with equal forgiveness and no discipline is deserved. The only way a moderator can stay on top of the chaos is to keep the simple, unavoidably flawed set of rules, make firm decisions on them, and not apologize about decisions unless there is a general outcry about a decision.
Even then, umps don't reverse their decisions when 50,000 fans, 60 ballers and 20 coaches scream about who was safe and who was out.
I'm not saying any of this to say who was right and who was wrong in what happened to you.
I **am** saying it because people here that I **do** know have jumped in, saying how valuable you are to the community. If your anger pushes you to leave Babbleland, I hope that sometime soon you can step back from it find some perspective for it, and come back ready to give us more of who you are.
cheers,
flb
Posted by shar on May 14, 2004, at 23:58:03
In reply to The ump's a bum! » Larry Hoover, posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 16:46:32
I sure do wish you'd stay. And, it won't be complete til Zen's here, too!
Sigh. I don't know how civility runs off so many good people!
Shar
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 1:35:40
In reply to Pardon my seeking a friendly label... I apologise » Larry Hoover, posted by 64bowtie on May 14, 2004, at 12:46:42
> > he has overstepped his bounds.
>
> That feels like a put down, and is more clearly not an acceptable I-statment.That one I overlooked, I apologize for that, and I'm sorry for any hurt it caused.
--
> more egregious acts of incivility
>
> You disgust me.
>
> Larry Hoover> The locals are ... taking potshots indesciminately.
>
> 64bowtieStill, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Two wrongs don't make a right.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or post a follow-up here.
Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 6:22:28
In reply to Re: please be civil » Larry Hoover » 64bowtie, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 1:35:40
Thanks Bob. I think that was the right thing to do.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 8:14:16
In reply to Re: please be civil » Larry Hoover » 64bowtie, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 1:35:40
> > > he has overstepped his bounds.
> >
> > That feels like a put down, and is more clearly not an acceptable I-statment.
>
> That one I overlooked, I apologize for that, and I'm sorry for any hurt it caused.I struggle with how you could have overlooked it, Bob. I quoted the entire post in the one you triple blocked me for.
Again, I reiterate my point that inconsistent site moderation was a precipitating factor in my indignant reply.
Again, too, I reiterate my perception that you appear to focus your civility sensors on me, while ignoring egregious postings in the same thread. Heck, in the same message.
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303226.html
>
> > more egregious acts of incivilityI fail to see what is uncivil about this phrase. Are mere mortals precluded from conclusions about civility?
> > You disgust me.
Please accept my apologies if I offended you. This was another test. St. James called you a pedophile without so much as a PBC. I was trying to clarify the rules around statements made to you. Clarity eludes me still.
> > Larry Hoover
>
> > The locals are ... taking potshots indesciminately.
> >
> > 64bowtie
>
> Still, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Two wrongs don't make a right.Are you accepting that you wronged me? If so, isn't some sort of reparation in order?
> If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
>
> or post a follow-up here.
>
> Sharing something about your own issues and their possible role in your reaction might be an interesting exercise -- and might help others respond to you supportively.
>
> Thanks,
>
> BobI think I covered the issues in these two posts:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303199.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303220.htmlLar
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 8:54:34
In reply to The ump's a bum! » Larry Hoover, posted by finelinebob on May 14, 2004, at 16:46:32
> Pardon me for butting in
I don't see any butting in going on.
> I **am** saying it because people here that I **do** know have jumped in, saying how valuable you are to the community. If your anger pushes you to leave Babbleland, I hope that sometime soon you can step back from it find some perspective for it, and come back ready to give us more of who you are.
>
> cheers,
> flbAnger is my secondary emotional response. The primary response is hurt. I don't let anyone question my emotions. Even me.
I'd like to argue that it's irrelevant whether I'm a contributor to the community or not. Logically, I could make that case, but emotionally, it's clearly a factor. In fact, it was my sense of being valued that made the emotional response to being unfairly treated (I have not found a way to any other conclusion) very large indeed.
It has taken me four months, almost, to even be able to talk about what happened in a rational way. I perceive the triple block as an act of violence, excessive and inappropriate. I'm not going to reiterate my arguments for that here.
Your umpire analogy is apt, but only to a point. An umpire rules instantly, but only on things he sees. The home plate umpire goes to e.g. the third plate umpire to rule on whether a batter swung or not. There is a delegation of jurisdiction.
Our "umpire" is often missing in action. Gone for days at a time, and in his place, he has delegates with insufficient knowledge (re: block history, for example) and power. (Aside to Dinah: You do a wonderful and perhaps too thankless job, sweetheart. This is not a criticism of you.)
With respect to coming back or not, I was moving closer to doing so, but only until I saw yet another example of gross inconsistency between what He says and what He does.
I don't care if I'm right, or not. I'm telling you what it's like to be me. I feel unprotected by Bob, when people take character shots at me, and go unpunished. Maybe I'm a little biased about the me part. Whatever. I feel persecuted by Bob, as I feel that I am held to a different standard than other posters are and have been.
Lar
Posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 9:17:36
In reply to Re: please be civil » Dr. Bob, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 8:14:16
You are the first person Bob ever apologized to but there are dozens that have been treated unfairly and hurt here. If he made "reparations" to you wouldn't that be unfair to all the others?
Best wishes
> > > > he has overstepped his bounds.
> > >
> > > That feels like a put down, and is more clearly not an acceptable I-statment.
> >
> > That one I overlooked, I apologize for that, and I'm sorry for any hurt it caused.
>
> I struggle with how you could have overlooked it, Bob. I quoted the entire post in the one you triple blocked me for.
>
> Again, I reiterate my point that inconsistent site moderation was a precipitating factor in my indignant reply.
>
> Again, too, I reiterate my perception that you appear to focus your civility sensors on me, while ignoring egregious postings in the same thread. Heck, in the same message.
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/303226.html
>
> >
> > > more egregious acts of incivility
>
> I fail to see what is uncivil about this phrase. Are mere mortals precluded from conclusions about civility?
>
> > > You disgust me.
>
> Please accept my apologies if I offended you. This was another test. St. James called you a pedophile without so much as a PBC. I was trying to clarify the rules around statements made to you. Clarity eludes me still.
>
> > > Larry Hoover
> >
> > > The locals are ... taking potshots indesciminately.
> > >
> > > 64bowtie
> >
> > Still, please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Two wrongs don't make a right.
>
> Are you accepting that you wronged me? If so, isn't some sort of reparation in order?
>
Posted by Dinah on May 15, 2004, at 10:10:42
In reply to Re: The ump's a bum! » finelinebob, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 8:54:34
Lar, I know this isn't a criticism of me. But the fact was that it was because of my actions that you are still feeling so hurt about that incident. I feel really bad about that. I hate to see you in so much pain.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:28:42
In reply to Inconsistent Apologizing » Larry Hoover, posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 9:17:36
> If he made "reparations" to you wouldn't that be unfair to all the others?
Is that another way of saying, "Don't ask for the right thing to be done, because then everyone else will expect the right thing?"
Maybe I should fake suicide, because that's a precendent-setting way to get a block reduced.
Posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 10:43:34
In reply to Re: Inconsistent Apologizing » Brio D Chimp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:28:42
> > If he made "reparations" to you wouldn't that be unfair to all the others?
>
> Is that another way of saying, "Don't ask for the right thing to be done, because then everyone else will expect the right thing?"
No it was a way of asking for the right thing to be done for everybody.
>
> Maybe I should fake suicide, because that's a precendent-setting way to get a block reduced.Well don't expect me to ask if that is what you did since that is what got me blocked for 24 weeks! Not withstanding that Bob had left posts up saying that WAS what happened WITHOUT comment...asking if it was true was cause to be blocked for 6 months! Sorry for adding my personal tale to your Thread.
You have my sympathy.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:56:27
In reply to Re: Inconsistent Apologizing » Larry Hoover, posted by Brio D Chimp on May 15, 2004, at 10:43:34
> > Maybe I should fake suicide, because that's a precendent-setting way to get a block reduced.
>
> Well don't expect me to ask if that is what you did since that is what got me blocked for 24 weeks! Not withstanding that Bob had left posts up saying that WAS what happened WITHOUT comment...asking if it was true was cause to be blocked for 6 months! Sorry for adding my personal tale to your Thread.I have talked about that incident many times on the Admin board, quite literally and explicitly. If my mentioning it again leads to another block, my argument is most clearly proven.
Lar
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 11:06:36
In reply to Re: Inconsistent Apologizing » Brio D Chimp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:28:42
> Maybe I should fake suicide, because that's a precendent-setting way to get a block reduced.
Please don't be sarcastic or joke about suicide. I've asked you to be civil before, so now I'm going to block you from posting for another 6 weeks.
If you have any questions or comments about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
or email me, or redirect a follow-up here after your block is over.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 15, 2004, at 14:40:44
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 11:06:36
Dr Bob.. I do think this one is unfair.. In my eyes it wasn't a joke or sarcastic, but simply stating a fact that we all know to be true.
remember, you don't block for intent, and the words themselves are nothing but fact.
Nikki
Posted by shadows721 on May 15, 2004, at 16:46:43
In reply to Dr. Bob is a hypocrite, posted by Larry Hoover on May 13, 2004, at 10:23:57
I don't know you, but I have read your posts and feel like I do. That's how babble has worked for me. It's an odd thing. We don't see each other or even hear each other's voice, but we do effect one another.
As a fellow sufferer with PTSD, I can understand the pain that you posted about from childhood. I think of Ptsd as a shadow player in my life. The pain of childhood comes back and repeats itself over and over again in other relationships as a shadow player in my life. I think often how is this pain reminding me of a pain in my past. Often, it is not my current pain that is really the problem. It is my unresolved pain of my past that needs my attention. What's really odd about this? It is my mind that is doing it all along? It feels terrible.
I am worried about you. I hope you will come back and possible make a new friend like me. I know that I could use a friend too. I tend to isolate myself, because of my ptsd symptoms. We can discuss things like this Ptsd topic.
I hope you will be safe in your weeks ahead. I care about you, my fellow babbler, and I hope to see you again. Sharing our past painful ptsd symptoms can help lighten this heavy load we carry inside.
Posted by SLS on May 16, 2004, at 13:28:41
In reply to Dr. Bob is a hypocrite, posted by Larry Hoover on May 13, 2004, at 10:23:57
Hi Larry.
I want to post something, but I don't know what to say.
I would really like to fix things if I could, but I wouldn't know where to start.
Your emotions are very intense. I'm trying to appreciate them well enough so as not to underestimate their importance to you and everyone else. However, I'm sure I will. I still don't know what to say, though.
I'm very glad to see that you make no apology for, or feel the need to justify and validate, your feelings. That's very healthy.
I am very selfish.
I want you to let go of all of this crap and just start posting again on every board except for this one. I want you to be strong enough so as to be invulnerable to the judgments of Dr. Bob or anyone else. I want you to ignore the past and deal with any personal hurt and insecurities by yourself. I want you to be a bigger man than anyone who would have you be otherwise. I want you to look past their imperfections and move forward despite them. I want you to teach me. I want you to support me. I want you to care about me. I want you to love me.
I want you to start posting again in six weeks.
- Scott
Posted by spoc on May 16, 2004, at 13:40:49
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob is a hypocrite » Larry Hoover, posted by SLS on May 16, 2004, at 13:28:41
....now if *that* isn't a compelling and ingeniously conceived argument for why Larry should come back -- and feel good about it -- I don't know what is! Perfection, Scott! See? Everyone can (potentially) be validated by these outlooks, and be able to go on. I don't mean to minimize or underestimate anything, I just really thought that was beautifully said! :- )
Posted by karen_kay on May 16, 2004, at 21:02:07
In reply to Dr. Bob is a hypocrite, posted by Larry Hoover on May 13, 2004, at 10:23:57
i'm very sorry you are hurting right now. i do hope you find the support you need at home, as babble obviously isn't an option right now since you've been blocked. i'm sorry about that too. i hope you are well larry. and i hope that in time you do decide to return, as there are many, many people who would love to see you back again.
larry, take care of yourself.
Posted by lil' jimi on May 17, 2004, at 2:01:30
In reply to Re: blocked for 6 weeks » Larry Hoover, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2004, at 11:06:36
Hey, Hsiung!
wha up? check this out, man ... like you just blocked Hoover for six weeks, Right?
.... AND like you also blocked him last time for SIX WEEKS, right ?
see wha i'm sayin?
we thought you had a deal where you crank up the thumb screws ... heh, heh ... i meant ... increased the length of these bans as one's rap sheet gets longer ... ... ... Or has some new policy come in force ... gone out of force?now if you fix things so folks can say I got Hoover a longer ban ... ... i will scream, real loud, and then hold my breath really long ... ... and tell everyone that i think you're a ... ... some kind of bad person ... ... ... because i LIKE hoover, man! ... ... he's like, the coolest, daddy-o!
another thing ... ... since we wouldn't be doing any incivility here at pb ... how come words like "Pedophile" and "Hypocrite" in phrases (in subject line, for cripes sakes already) like "you are a ... " seem to be getting overlooked?
look i gotta a lot of other questions, you know ... but all this ca ca with banning Hoover is just too way out ...
okay listen, get back to me about these questions i'm asking here and we can get to the other ones, okay
1) so do bans increase in severity per incident/non-incident or not ... ... and was there underlying reason for this reprieve for Hoover ... ... like i Am in favor of cutting him some slack, okay? ... ... but ol' mentally challenged me wants to see the internal consistency here ...
and
2) speaking of consistency, the deal with "pedophile" and "hypocrite", huh? ... like what is it, these ain't compliments, man ... ...i'll be listening ...
caio,
~ ol' lil' jimi
Posted by mair on May 17, 2004, at 10:29:30
In reply to Re: Inconsistent Apologizing » Brio D Chimp, posted by Larry Hoover on May 15, 2004, at 10:56:27
...gone the next. I'm sorry I wasn't around when you stopped back in. I'm sorry you haven't been doing well. I'd like to echo everything Scott said so beautifully. Please come back.
Mair
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 18, 2004, at 1:52:59
In reply to Re: Dr. Bob is a hypocrite » Larry Hoover, posted by SLS on May 16, 2004, at 13:28:41
Go forward in thread:
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